Can the chaos gods be good?

[Khloros]

If the chaos gods are only representations and embodiments of emotions and the collective conscious could they eb good in a world that is not as grimdark and screwed up as warhammer?

I mean they all emobody positive aspects as well:

Nurgle: Acceptance, life, nature, camaraderie, joy.
Khorne: Martial glory, honor, fitness.
Slaanesh: Pride, perfection, pleasure, freedom.
Tzeentch: Hope, knowledge, intelligence, change.

If the minds of the inhabitants are nto as dark could the gods be more tame?

[Eldan]

They all have positive aspects, yeah. Earlier warhammer material emphasized that. There's a reason all those barbarian tribes worship them, it's not just for power. And given the nature of the warp, they'd absolutely change to match their worshippers, eventually. The problem with chaos is that negative emotions are seen as stronger than positive ones. But in a brighter setting, you could absolutelyh ave Slaanesh, god of love and freedom.

[Cespenar]

It does cut directly against the grain of the setting, though.

It's as if you play D&D and say "Okay guys, we have to find a peaceful way to protect all of these endangered species! Also, can we somehow educate these goblinoids without upsetting too much of their culture?" :smalltongue:

[Scripten]

It's always been my (creative) interpretation that the reason the Chaos Gods are so warped (heh) and evil is because of how grimdark the setting is. There's a fan-made alternate universe where 40K is turned into a peppy Saturday morning kids' show, in which the Golden Emperor, paragon of virtue and kindness, sits on his golden throne, protecting the universe from the kooky Tyranids and unambiguously bad (but not lethal!) enemies of the Imperium. The Orks, of course, are a noble warrior race.

It's been a while since I read about it. I'll have to look it up again and see if they mention the Chaos Gods.

[Eldan]

Noblebright? Yeah, they do.They are the gods of Hope, Love, Honour and Life, I seem to remember.

[Knaight]

Sure. The reason they're all terrible in Warhammer isn't because the chaos gods, specifically, represent things that are terrible. It's because they're in Warhammer, where everyone is terrible.

[Cormac Mac Art]

I think so, why not! Let me think of an example. Hmmm... I'll to get back to you on that!

[Max_Killjoy]

Sure. The reason they're all terrible in Warhammer isn't because the chaos gods, specifically, represent things that are terrible. It's because they're in Warhammer, where everyone is terrible.

The setting that went from being a parody of / stark commentary on other things, to just being a 2-D parody of itself.

Grimdark became grimderp.

[Max_Killjoy]

If the chaos gods are only representations and embodiments of emotions and the collective conscious could they eb good in a world that is not as grimdark and screwed up as warhammer?

I mean they all emobody positive aspects as well:

Nurgle: Acceptance, life, nature, camaraderie, joy.
Khorne: Martial glory, honor, fitness.
Slaanesh: Pride, perfection, pleasure, freedom.
Tzeentch: Hope, knowledge, intelligence, change.

If the minds of the inhabitants are nto as dark could the gods be more tame?


In one of the settings I'm working on, the original "old gods" weren't good or evil innately, they were the myriad "souls" of the universe itself, and represented natural forces as much as anything. They had vast intellect, and vast awareness, and vast will, and vast power -- but also vast monomania, and shattered memories of "before" when they were infinite and timeless and limited only by the edges of their imaginations and desires... and no innate grasp of mortal limitations. So, they could easily come across as callous, or insane, or evil.

[gkathellar]

In practice, no. They're intrinsically malign even on the rare occasion that they have harmless intentions. It's true that they're linked to positive emotions and notions, but the very existence of the Chaos Gods depends on those notions being carried to maddening extremes.

Bear in mind that the Chaos Gods are the product, ultimately, of the Warp; the Warp, in turn, is the Immaterium twisted by thousands of years of violence and suffering throughout the galaxy. WH40k's deities began with the War In Heaven and its aftershocks, and they are in many ways the punishment inflicted on the galaxy by the original sins of the Old Ones and the proto-Necrons.

[War_lord]

It depends on if you mean Warhammer Fantasy or 40k.

Fantasy actually tries to have a balance between grim elements, heroics and black humor. Despite the reputation some of the TRPG rules gave it of "you're a rat catcher, you own a small but vicious dog, and you die in the first session of dysentery", there's actually plenty of room to run the setting as Dungeons & Edgyness.

40k is a total mess, it was originally designed as a totally over the top parody of dystopian sci-fi, but somewhere along the line it acquired a totally toxic fanbase that demanded that the entire thing be played 100% straight. So now the setting is actively written to crush anything that looks like positive change, which makes it deathly dull.

[Kaptin Keen]

The chaos gods can't really be good and still be chaos gods.

But I think you're kinda right. See, that's how they get you: You are the oppressed masses, you want change, you need the tools and knowledge to overcome the iron-booted overlords who govern every aspect of your miserable lives - and lo and behold, here is whose ideals match yours, and he wields incredible arcane power, and just imagine what you could do with .... BAM! You're now a twisted abomination dedicated to Tzeentch.

They are chaos gods, they lack any sort of restraint. That's the whole point. Taken too far, all good things become bad, and those bad things are the chaos gods.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu:Moved to Media Discussions, because it's not really related to Roleplaying Games in any direct fashion. Carry on with your fun, citizens.

As other people have mentioned, the Chaos Gods do incorporate 'positive' or 'good' aspects - but they use it as a gateway drug more than anything. Your hope, your honor, your desire for self-improvement and challenges, your determination; they're the hooks the Gods use on your soul to draw you into the darker and more negative sides of their portfolio.

[LordCdrMilitant]

It depends on if you mean Warhammer Fantasy or 40k.

Fantasy actually tries to have a balance between grim elements, heroics and black humor. Despite the reputation some of the TRPG rules gave it of "you're a rat catcher, you own a small but vicious dog, and you die in the first session of dysentery", there's actually plenty of room to run the setting as Dungeons & Edgyness.

40k is a total mess, it was originally designed as a totally over the top parody of dystopian sci-fi, but somewhere along the line it acquired a totally toxic fanbase that demanded that the entire thing be played 100% straight. So now the setting is actively written to crush anything that looks like positive change, which makes it deathly dull.


...

It's a fundamentally humorous setting. However, part of the point is that any attempt to make things better winds up backfiring and making things worse; it is part of what makes it funny. I don't think I've met anyone who plays it "straight" with the grimdarkness, though I wouldn't expect a RPG run in the setting, or a book written, to be a joke. There's plenty of heroics and black humor.

But yes, the Chaos Gods are good if you're a Chaos worshipper. Spin your propaganda however you want. However, there's nobody who's actually "good" on an absolute scale in the setting.

[Sinewmire]

As other people have mentioned, the Chaos Gods do incorporate 'positive' or 'good' aspects - but they use it as a gateway drug more than anything. Your hope, your honor, your desire for self-improvement and challenges, your determination; they're the hooks the Gods use on your soul to draw you into the darker and more negative sides of their portfolio.

Pretty much. If you followed the metaphor, you could use recreationally. You could channel off aspects of, say, Khorne to be a noble warrior who fights with strength and fury but also control and honour. You'd just have to be reallllly careful.

After all, most people get angry or hungry or want change or feel despair without turning to the Chaos gods.

It's also probably also inevitable. Inquisitor Ravenor suggests that for Inquisitors, and by extension others with great power, the question isn't whether or not you will eventually be corrupted, but how much good you can do before it gets so bad that you end up the bad guy.

[Frozen_Feet]

Tzeentch is the only one I could see being naturally good, or at least neutral.

Why? Well let's look at the most primal emotions at the core of each entity. Khorne's wrath. Slaanesh's lust. Nurgle's fear of death.

These are all very basic and concrete. They've basically been with us as long as we've existed. They're probably features of all sapient life from before they really get a civilization going on. Most of the positive features, by contrast, are much more abstract, less uniform. So it stands to a reason why the "negative" base emotions would form the core of these beings instead of the more developed "positive" ones.

Hope, by contrast, seems much less basic. Tzeentch in general seems to chiefly embody notions and emotions associated with highly developed and highly intellectual thought. By all accounts, morality should be included, because as far as I can see that's what a lot of earliest intellectual pursuits were concerned with.

But by the same train of thought, it'd make sense for Tzeentch to be youngest and least stable of Chaos gods.

[The Glyphstone]

Strictly speaking Tzeentch is primarily the god of Change at its most primal. Hope is desire things will change in a positive way, but it's only a small part of its portfolio. Social upheaval, riots and revolution, rampant mutation, these are all Change without care for its consequences. Rather than being more moral, its easily as amoral as the other three - Tzeentch always wants things to be different, whether that makes them better or worse.

[Braininthejar2]

https://pm1.narvii.com/6594/31a8d963531da78a6a3ee1f6dd1bdf55e3243071_hq.jpg

[Frozen_Feet]

Strictly speaking Tzeentch is primarily the god of Change at its most primal. Hope is desire things will change in a positive way, but it's only a small part of its portfolio. Social upheaval, riots and revolution, rampant mutation, these are all Change without care for its consequences. Rather than being more moral, its easily as amoral as the other three - Tzeentch always wants things to be different, whether that makes them better or worse.

Supposedly, but it's ill fit for how the Immaterium is supposed to work. Because "change" is not an emotion, it's highly abstract and non-uniform, and it doesn't really make sense for all the various things you could call "change" to coalesce into a single entity.

Slaanesh has a similar problem in an edition where Slaanesh was defined as just "excess" of... anything, basically. (The same entry acknowledged that by this logic, all other Chaos gods ought to be subsumed by Slaanesh, and this was a motive for them to fear it.)

[Eldan]

Yeah, I think it's actually a bit of a problem that Slaanesh and Tzeentch are too general and Khorne too narrow in focus.

[thorgrim29]

Yeah, I think it's actually a bit of a problem that Slaanesh and Tzeentch are too general and Khorne too narrow in focus.

Khorne would be narrow in focus in the real world but in a universe of Only War! being the god of courage, honor and pretty everything related to fighting is a pretty sweet gig.

[Calthropstu]

Khorne would be narrow in focus in the real world but in a universe of Only War! being the god of courage, honor and pretty everything related to fighting is a pretty sweet gig.

I said war huh... What is it good for...

[Frozen_Feet]

I find Khorne to be the most compelling, actually. Because the man who is angry at everything all the time and channels this to martial pursuit is something I can actually get behind as an archetypical god-figure. From a territoral fight between two angry bears, to the first caveman bashing another's skull in with a rock, to a space marine blasting space elves with a bolter, I can see a repeating motif through all time and space.

For a setting that's defined by war and bloodshed, he's a nearly perfect fit.

[Drascin]

It does cut directly against the grain of the setting, though.

It's as if you play D&D and say "Okay guys, we have to find a peaceful way to protect all of these endangered species! Also, can we somehow educate these goblinoids without upsetting too much of their culture?" :smalltongue:

...you mean your players don't do that kind of stuff? I don't think I've been in a table that wouldn't give the goblins a chance to explain their grievances and offer to mediate if they're legitimate since I was in highschool.

[Cikomyr]

Ok. Crazyweird theory here. Its just that i love the nature of Warhammer's Warp and divine beings.

Originally, the Chaos Gods could have, indeed, having had a "good side". Like it was mentioned, Khorne could be seen as a god of Honor and Courage.

However, the majority worship of the Galaxy has appropriated all the good sides of the Chaos Gods. When people pray for Courage and Honor, they turn to the God-Emperor. When people pray for Hope, they turn to the God-Emperor. When people pray for Perfection and Pride, they turn to the God-Emperor.

The Chaos Gods are cannot be anything more than what people's emotions and beliefs make them. So where the Chaos Gods might once have had a better side, the God-Emperor has drained that positive side away from them, leaving only their despicable and nefarious side to Chaos.

[-D-]

Ok. Crazyweird theory here. Its just that i love the nature of Warhammer's Warp and divine beings.

Originally, the Chaos Gods could have, indeed, having had a "good side". Like it was mentioned, Khorne could be seen as a god of Honor and Courage.

However, the majority worship of the Galaxy has appropriated all the good sides of the Chaos Gods. When people pray for Courage and Honor, they turn to the God-Emperor. When people pray for Hope, they turn to the God-Emperor. When people pray for Perfection and Pride, they turn to the God-Emperor.

The Chaos Gods are cannot be anything more than what people's emotions and beliefs make them. So where the Chaos Gods might once have had a better side, the God-Emperor has drained that positive side away from them, leaving only their despicable and nefarious side to Chaos.
On one hand I like the "It was Emperor's fault all along", on the other hand Slaanesh was vile from day 1. Also there are non-human species with presence in the Warp.

[Cikomyr]

On one hand I like the "It was Emperor's fault all along", on the other hand Slaanesh was vile from day 1. Also there are non-human species with presence in the Warp.

Thats a good point. Slaahesh's supervile nature most likely originated with her/him due to the muder**** of the Eldar, but (s)he probably have a nicer side that could have comed after during the Age of Strife, one Murder**** was finished.

Not sure how much the Emprah did what he did deliberately. In fact, it was probably all an accident. I like the fact that the Ancient Gods only turned evil because a New God took over the "good" side of the philosophical debate. It has a Christian/Paganist thematic.

As for the non-human species.. well, some of them had a nonconfrontational relationship with Chaos, no?

I always find strange the idea that Slaanesh, one of the primordial Chaos Force, only has existed for, like, 15,000 years

[GrayDeath]

Sorry for your pet theory, but the Chaos Beings were massively destructive 65 Million years before the GE.

Even if only protoforms of the 2 oldest Chaos Gods, Khorne and Nurgle (Or Rage and Despair, the 2 most comkon results of being in a ****ty situation) might have existed back then.


But to the OP: Yes, for Chaos is ALL things (even order, for a while^^). But their overwhelming amount of power and emotion comes from more negative sides of the people who form the Immaterium, so they can be good, its just incredibly rare ;)


As for their main aspects, I cant remember where Ir ead it, but one forum poster once cut them down to hatred.

Khorne hates everything but himself.

Nurgle hates the Future, for it can only bring more suffering.

Tzeentch hates the Present.

Slaneesh hates him/herself.