Prestige classes for eldan's arcane system

[noob]

Personally I am a fan of eldan's system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?233664-Arcane-Magic-Base-Class-and-System-Overhaul-WIP-PEACH). (Even if it does not fix entirely the problems with arcane spell-casting the whole fluff around it is nice)


Here is a new feat that is also needed for entry in a boring prc.
Lore focus:
Requirement: Being able to use spells of a given lore
Effect: You pick a lore for which you have spells then you gain one focus point you can use only for incantations or Mantras of the lore you picked.

Here is the Boring prc
Lore specialist(10 levels prc):
Requirement: Lore focus(Yes you can enter that prc at level 2)
Poor bab, good will save, bad reflex save, bad fortitude save.
Skills: 2 + int mod per level
Class Skills: All the class skills of one previous arcane casting class.
When you pick that prc you pick a lore in which you have lore focus it is then the chosen lore for all the description of the prc.
2 spell known per level in this prc but one of them must be from the chosen lore.
1 focus point per level in this prc but the focus points gained from this prc can only be used for incantations or mantras of the chosen lore.
Lore knowledge: The lore specialist can add its level to all knowledge checks related to the chosen lore.

Does it seems okay as a prc in your system?(since you are still roaming around eldan)
I am going to try to also make a prc about shape changing that is going to try to make modular shapes based on point cost instead of being "Open the monster manual and use the monsters you want as if they were your team mates"

Ok so today I did think about how wizard 18 / sorcerer 1 can get two Magister's Arcanum at the same time(34 spells known at level 19) which leads to fun and weird rule interactions.
Here is a prc to make that even worse.

Ascendant Magister(five level prc (for if somehow you qualify earlier than level 20)):
Requirement: Have two or more lores in which you have 17 spells known or more.
Skills: 2 + int mod per level
Class Skills: All the class skills of one previous arcane casting class and Knowledge : ascendance.
Spellcasting: you gain caster level, spells known and focuses as if you gained a level in a previous arcane spellcasting class but you gain or progress no other class features from that class.
At each level you gain in that prc you gain an arcanum you did not have even if you do not fit the requirements(but it will be replaced immediately by something else (as appropriate) if it would give you an extra immortality arcanum).

[JoshuaZ]

Is this the system in question (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?233664-Arcane-Magic-Base-Class-and-System-Overhaul-WIP-PEACH)? Linking to it might help. I'm not that familiar with the system. Can you maybe discuss more what this PrC is supposed to do? Maybe some broad idea?

[noob]

The interest of that prc is in its name: it is for specializing in a lore (which is the equivalent of a school but with less spells because schools having too many spells was a problem).
You basically get the equivalent of spell slots(focuses which allows to prepare incantations or to fuel mantras which are like dmm persisted boosts) but only for the picked lore and you also get a lot of spells but half of them must be in the picked lore.

[Eldan]

I'll be honest, it's not a very exciting PrC. I feel that could be handled as a series of feats, wouldn't need to be a class.

I had been thinking of PrCs when I wrote that, years ago. Basically, for specialists, I would probably do them per lore, with lore-specific abilities. Like, say, adapting Earth Dreamer for the lore of earth.

[noob]

I'll be honest, it's not a very exciting PrC. I feel that could be handled as a series of feats, wouldn't need to be a class.
A feat chain would make most people taking it even more bland: most of the customization out of the classes is feats and since there is not a lot of classes in that system...
(2 with one class having 4 sub classes but you can not multiclass between sub classes so you can have at most 2 different classes so getting the option to customize more with classes can help)
(oh and I see nothing preventing from taking earth dreamer for progressing lore specialist casting for making a more "adapted version of earth dreamer" with minimal effort)

For adapting standard casting progressing prcs that existed before the system you just need to replace the text "gains new spells per day" by the text "gain new focuses"

This prc is a tool that can be combined with other tools since it is a casting class (it gives focuses and spells known directly) you can then progress it with the base dnd prcs that you like(after the small text substitution I suggested) and get quickly the lore bonuses thus getting the flavorful abilities you want(such as seeing through earth) and your lore's abilities as well as lots of focuses for that lore only.

[Eldan]

How about an ACF or subclass instead? I just think it's not enough to make a PrC.

[noob]

Here is an acf version of that prc if you want to but it is quite complex since it needs to be something you can take your whole carrier without becoming too much specialized.
Basically the additional spells known and focuses replace the class features from paths you would have acquired.(but you get a lot of extra spells and extra focuses)

Specialist wizard:



level
bba
will save
reflex save
fortitude save
focus
spells known
class features


1st
+0
+2
+0
+0
2(1)
3(2)
Spellcasting, Main Lore, Bonus Feat


2nd
+1
+3
+0
+0
2(2)
4(3)



3rd
+1
+3
+1
+1
2(3)
5(4)



4th
+2
+4
+1
+1
3(3)
6(5)



5th
+2
+4
+1
+1
3(4)
7(6)
Bonus Feat


6th
+3
+5
+2
+2
3(5)
8(7)



7th
+3
+5
+2
+2
3(6)
9(8)



8th
+4
+6
+2
+2
4(6)
10(9)



9th
+4
+6
+3
+3
4(7)
11(10)
Bonus Feat


10th
+5
+7
+3
+3
4(8)
12(11)



11th
+5
+7
+3
+3
4(9)
13(12)



12th
+6
+8
+4
+4
5(9)
14(13)



13th
+6
+8
+4
+4
5(10)
15(14)
Bonus Feat


14th
+7
+9
+4
+4
5(11)
16(15)



15th
+7
+9
+5
+5
5(12)
17(16)



16th
+8
+10
+5
+5
6(12)
18(17)



17th
+8
+10
+5
+5
6(13)
19(18)
Bonus Feat


18th
+9
+11
+6
+6
6(14)
20(19)



19th
+9
+11
+6
+6
6(15)
21(20)



20th
+10
+12
+6
+6
7(15)
22(21)




Main Lore: At first level, every specialist wizard chooses a lore, which represents their direction their studies have taken this lore afterwards will be mentioned as main lore.

Bonus Feats: At first level, and every four levels thereafter (5th, 9th, 13th and 17th), the wizard gains a bonus arcane, metamagic or wizard feat.

Spellcasting: Wizards can learn arcane spells from any lore, as explained in the section on learning spells. To learn, prepare or cast an arcane spell, the wizard must have an intelligence score of 10+the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.
A wizard has a limited number of spells known, depending on their class level, as seen in the table above. These spells are recorded in a spellbook, a wizard's private journal of research notes and formulae that helps them to research new spells and prepare those they already know. A wizard can not add spells to their spellbook by any means other than advancing in level or certain feats and path features.

The number of spells known surrounded by parenthesis are additional spells known drawn from the main lore.

To cast any spell other than a cantrip or prestidigitation, a wizard must first prepare it. Every wizard gains a number of focus points, depending on their level, as determined on the table.

There is a number of focus points surrounded by parenthesis those focus points are bonus focus points usable only for incantations
and mantras from the main lore.

To prepare a spell, a wizard must first meditate for at least half an hour in a quiet atmosphere to focus their mind. In this time, they can not engage in any other intellectual activity, nor in any strenuous physical activity, and they can not be in combat or under any other immediate threat to their life. While meditating, the wizard can not sustain any mantras or incantations that require concentration. This meditation also restores to the wizard any focus expended, unless the expenditure is due to a condition or effect that is still ongoing.
After meditating, the wizard must choose which incantations and mantras to prepare and meditate for another five minutes per spell prepared. For incantations, he must then invest one point of focus into every incantation prepared, which can not be regained in any way until the incantation is released by casting it.
Preparing mantras also takes an investment of one focus point per mantra from the wizard. The wizard can choose to cast the mantra and invest more than the minimum amount of focus into it, choosing appropriate targets if necessary, while preparing it.

[Eldan]

I think that looks much more solid, yeah.

[noob]

The main disadvantage is that I can not chose to specialize more or less in a continuous way.(I can not decide to specialize more or less)
Furthermore it prevents me from deciding later to take levels in trickster wizard or whatever.(for example with the prc you can take a level in trickster wizard then chain in the prc)
So I prefer to have both options.
Also how do you find the ascendant magister?(and whenever it should be capped at one level for avoiding excessive silliness or not.)

[Eldan]

I see where you're coming from on the AM, but I feel a bit uncomfortable with the idea, tbh. Two magister arcana was to be the capstone for wizard, and suddenly having three would probably lead to a lot of weirdness. Especially if you have several of those who make you effectively immortal.

[noob]

I see where you're coming from on the AM, but I feel a bit uncomfortable with the idea, tbh. Two magister arcana was to be the capstone for wizard, and suddenly having three would probably lead to a lot of weirdness. Especially if you have several of those who make you effectively immortal.

When you decide to have two magister arcana it replace the possibility of picking 3 different ninth level spells from different lores(and one spell per level on those lores) and some low level useful spells which gives you more polyvalence than focusing massively on two lores.
Now the thing is that without the ascendant magister when you focus on two lores to get two magister's arcana you already have possibly two ways of being immortal at once that cover each other weaknesses.

For example the astral projecting lich can only be killed for real with specific weapons but even then if the caster was wearing his phylactery when he ascended to being never really here then it means his phylactery is in his pocket dimension so even if you use the things that can kill an astral projecting person(stuff like the silvery cutting swords or wathever that was named) that person still have his phylactery(and his real equipment) in his own demi-plane and thus will lich respawn in his own demiplane and get its stuff back then use the 24 hour process for coming back(so you can not ever kill that lich unless you somehow have shenanigans that are not presented in that casting system).

So the question is: is it possible to be more immortal than that with a third magister arcana or is it going to make no difference?

[Eldan]

Yeah, you're running into a problem I noticed even back then, but too late to really do anything about it: master arcana are really cool, and work really badly if you get more than one. I should have noticed that at the time when I wrote them, but I didn't.

I should probably think of a rule somewhere where if you would get two master arcana, you get something else instead.

[noob]

Yeah, you're running into a problem I noticed even back then, but too late to really do anything about it: master arcana are really cool, and work really badly if you get more than one. I should have noticed that at the time when I wrote them, but I didn't.

I should probably think of a rule somewhere where if you would get two master arcana, you get something else instead.

Like: if you would get a second master arcana you instead get a classy ninth level spell related to the lore that can not be picked otherwise.
Example: For undeath you could get something like general of undeath (as a mantra) or maybe pathfinder wail of the banshee invocation.

[Eldan]

Yeah, like that. I'd probably also allow them to choose the High Arcane Spell of any lore they have at master level. (Like, you get the Undeath Master Arcanum first, then later you get the required 17 spells of Forces as well, so you can choose not to gain an Arcanum of Forces, but instead the bonus spell for Undeath.)

Or just give every lore an an alterlative Master Arcanum where you can choose one of two plus something like an "Immortality trait" and a limitation that you can only have one Immortality Arcanum.

(Dammit, now you're making me want to continue on that system, while I just started another huge homebrew project...)

[noob]

(Dammit, now you're making me want to continue on that system, while I just started another huge homebrew project...)
So I have a question: what is your new homebrew project about?

[Eldan]

Should still be somewhere on the first two pages. Incantations. Basically an extension of ritual magic as in the other thread.

[noob]

Should still be somewhere on the first two pages. Incantations. Basically an extension of ritual magic as in the other thread.

Now I am confused: there is incantations which are spells you cast in one round and need focus.
And there is Incantations which are an extension of the ritual system.

Here is a new prc
Transformer (there is probably a more fitting name for it)
Requirements: Knowledge of the alter self ritual or of level 2 or higher transmutation spells able to change the shape of the subject.
Poor bab, good will save, bad reflex save, bad fortitude save.
Skills: 2 + int mod per level
Class Skills: All the class skills of one previous arcane casting class.
Spellcasting: you gain caster level, spells known and focuses as if you gained a level in a previous arcane spellcasting class but you gain or progress no other class features from that class.

Alter any monster: You gain a mantra that allows to change the shape of the targets(which must be willing) allowing them to look like a particular creature or a member of a particular creature specie as long as the creature have the same type and size as the subject or one size category smaller than the subject but still of the same type. This give them one evolution point that can be spent on powers a summoner having as its level your level in Transformer would be able to grant to the target if it was its Eidolon. those powers must not contains magic or large in its name and the picked power must thematically fit with the creature in which the targets are transformed. It also gives the subject a +10 bonus to its disguise checks to look like the target creature or to look like a member of the chosen creature specie. If the target creature or creature specie was smaller or bigger than the subject then change the size category of the subject to fit the size of the creature or of the creature specie.

At every odd level after level 1 in that prc you can add one more evolution point with that mantra by increasing the focus cost of that mantra by 1 per evolution point to add over the normal amount. This decision is done on casting and does not change the increase in cost for applying the mantra to multiple targets.(So for example if a level 3 transformer wants to alter 5 subjects and give them each 2 evolution points he will have to pay 3 focus points)

If you have 4 or more evolution points for transforming the target you can transform the target in a creature of one more size category than its base size but then you must spend 4 evolution points.
If you have somehow the ability to give 10 evolution points (which would need epic levels) you can then transform the target in a creature of two more size categories than its base size at the cost of 10 evolution points.
At level 4 in that prc you can transform the subject to make it smaller than before: you can now transform it in a creature as small as you want but for each size category under one size category smaller than the subject you must pay an extra evolution point.
at level 5 Transforming the targets allow to recover health and characteristics as much as a full night rest.
At level 6 the boost to disguise checks is now of 20
At level 7 you can now transform the target without type restrictions.
At level 10 the cost of using that mantra with a given number of evolution points higher than one is reduced by half.

Okay maybe an umbrella mantra that gains in polyvalence was not the way to go.
But it is still significatively less polyvalent than polymorph.

[Eldan]

Now I am confused: there is incantations which are spells you cast in one round and need focus.
And there is Incantations which are an extension of the ritual system.

Yeah, unfortunate, that. The incantation thread takes the rules of incantations from the d20srd, so I kept the name. As a result, it doesn't mesh well with my older homebrew.




Here is a new prc
Transformer (there is probably a more fitting name for it)
Requirements: Knowledge of the alter self ritual or of level 2 or higher transmutation spells able to change the shape of the subject.
Poor bab, good will save, bad reflex save, bad fortitude save.
Skills: 2 + int mod per level
Class Skills: All the class skills of one previous arcane casting class.
Spellcasting: you gain caster level, spells known and focuses as if you gained a level in a previous arcane spellcasting class but you gain or progress no other class features from that class.

Alter any monster: You gain a mantra that allows to change the shape of the targets(which must be willing) allowing them to look like a particular creature or a member of a particular creature specie as long as the creature have the same type and size as the subject or one size category smaller than the subject but still of the same type. This give them one evolution point that can be spent on powers a summoner having as its level your level in Transformer would be able to grant to the target if it was its Eidolon. those powers must not contains magic or large in its name and the picked power must thematically fit with the creature in which the targets are transformed. It also gives the subject a +10 bonus to its disguise checks to look like the target creature or to look like a member of the chosen creature specie. If the target creature or creature specie was smaller or bigger than the subject then change the size category of the subject to fit the size of the creature or of the creature specie.

At every odd level after level 1 in that prc you can add one more evolution point with that mantra by increasing the focus cost of that mantra by 1 per evolution point to add over the normal amount. This decision is done on casting and does not change the increase in cost for applying the mantra to multiple targets.(So for example if a level 3 transformer wants to alter 5 subjects and give them each 2 evolution points he will have to pay 4 focus points)

If you have 4 or more evolution points for transforming the target you can transform the target in a creature of one more size category than its base size but then you must spend 4 evolution points.
If you have somehow the ability to give 10 evolution points (which would need epic levels) you can then transform the target in a creature of two more size categories than its base size at the cost of 10 evolution points.
At level 4 in that prc you can transform the subject to make it smaller than before: you can now transform it in a creature as small as you want but for each size category under one size category smaller than the subject you must pay an extra evolution point.
at level 5 Transforming the targets allow to recover health and characteristics as much as a full night rest.
At level 6 the boost to disguise checks is now of 20
At level 7 you can now transform the target without type restrictions.
At level 10 the cost of using that mantra with a given number of evolution points higher than one is reduced by half.

Okay maybe an umbrella mantra that gains in polyvalence was not the way to go.
But it is still significatively less polyvalent than polymorph.

Hm. I'm not too familiar with the Summoner, but it looks like a doable concept. I'd say this is basiaclly solid.

One concept I was playing around with anyway was the idea that some prestige classes gain specific new spells that aren't otherwise part of the lores. Just because there's so many spells out there that I can't possibly fit all the interesting ones into lores. This is basically an example of that, with Polymorph.

[Eldan]

You know what, I want to try writing a PrC. Someone choose a lore from that list.