Reincarnation leftovers

[Arcanist]

The spell Reincarnation states that it creates a whole new body after the creature is reincarnated, but I am wondering if the leftover body is still suitable for being animated as an undead of some sort.


Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated.

The idea being that you use Last Breath to produce corpses and then Animate Dead to turn it into a Skeleton or Zombie or whatever. My only question is if there is a leftover body after Last Breath/Reincarnation is used, or if the dead body is consumed with the casting of Last Breath/Reincarnation.

[BowStreetRunner]

Okay, first of all. Last Breath exists in 3 different sources - Masters of the Wild, Complete Divine, and Spell Compendium. The Spell Compendium version is very different from the other two so it is worth pointing out which version you are dealing with because I was totally confused at first :smallconfused: until I realized there was a newer version out there :smallcool:.

So the problem with Reincarnation (and by extension Last Breath which states that it functions like Reincarnation) is that it states that it creates the new body "from the natural elements at hand". This certainly could include the remains themselves, but since it doesn't explicitly state what natural elements at hand it actually uses, the DM is free to decide as they wish. Which means that this would be entirely a DM call.

I think most DMs by default assume the old body is consumed by the spell, but that's mostly just because DMs are lazy about dealing with unnecessary details unless there is an overriding incentive to delve into something. So if you want the DM to side with you on this, I would think you just need to convince them that it's good for the story/plot and that you're not going to break their game with it.

[Nifft]

The spell Reincarnation states that it creates a whole new body after the creature is reincarnated, but I am wondering if the leftover body is still suitable for being animated as an undead of some sort.

Sure, why not?

It's not like corpses are a rare or difficult-to-find commodity for the average adventuring person.

[BowStreetRunner]

It's not like corpses are a rare or difficult-to-find commodity for the average adventuring person.
Nifft makes a good point here - corpses are normally pretty easy to come by. Last Breath has a 500 gp material component. So why would you want to do this rather than just animate an ordinary corpse?

[Uncle Pine]

Nifft makes a good point here - corpses are normally pretty easy to come by. Last Breath has a 500 gp material component. So why would you want to do this rather than just animate an ordinary corpse?
Wight supremacists and other niche necromancers already exist, so maybe this one is extremely adamant about only animating the finest cuts of meat (as in his or her own).

[liquidformat]

From my understanding the point of Last Breath/Reincarnation was intended to be used when there was no intact corpse, so when you had been blown up and they couldn't find all the parts or maybe someone stole your body. Anyways based on that intended purpose I don't see why you wouldn't be able to do whatever with the original body.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is suggested to be something more than just a body used in undead. A person cannot be raised while their body is undead, even by spells that do not require bodyparts, such as true resurrection.

Therefore it seems some amount of soul is needed to be undead. Just as one cannot raise the same person twice by casting true resurection and then resurection, undeath seems to bind the unwilling soul back into the body making it unavalible.

So it makes sense you cannot raise an undead version of a creature currently alive.

[liquidformat]

There is suggested to be something more than just a body used in undead. A person cannot be raised while their body is undead, even by spells that do not require bodyparts, such as true resurrection.

Therefore it seems some amount of soul is needed to be undead. Just as one cannot raise the same person twice by casting true resurection and then resurection, undeath seems to bind the unwilling soul back into the body making it unavalible.

So it makes sense you cannot raise an undead version of a creature currently alive.

See you have got the wrong order of operations here and that is your issue, I have never seen a rule that says if I have Reincarnated someone I can't then raise them as long as the 24 hr/level hasn't been passed, it just says their soul has to be willing to return. Similarly there is nothing inside of any of the create undead line that calls out having a soul or part of the soul as a requirement of creation. The only thing we see is that raise the dead and Reincarnation are not powerful enough to raise people who died from death effects or that have been turned into undead.

[Telonius]

There is suggested to be something more than just a body used in undead. A person cannot be raised while their body is undead, even by spells that do not require bodyparts, such as true resurrection.

Therefore it seems some amount of soul is needed to be undead. Just as one cannot raise the same person twice by casting true resurection and then resurection, undeath seems to bind the unwilling soul back into the body making it unavalible.

So it makes sense you cannot raise an undead version of a creature currently alive.

Yeah, I'd rule that as soon as you're reincarnated, the dead body (whatever condition it's in) is no longer your corpse. Totally fine for Flesh Golem crafting or otherwise animating it as an object, but not for raising it as an undead.

[Nifft]

Yeah, I'd rule that as soon as you're reincarnated, the dead body (whatever condition it's in) is no longer your corpse. Totally fine for Flesh Golem crafting or otherwise animating it as an object, but not for raising it as an undead.

I'd let you animate your own remains.

It's just that if you ever need to be resurrected again, it won't work, because the next time you die all that would be left of you is the undead.

So, IMHO it's possible. It's just risky, and kinda pointless since -- as mentioned before -- heaps of dead bodies are not an uncommon occurrence in the honorable adventuring profession.