Critique my Houserules

[Jaelommiss]

I'm designing a set of houserules for a new campaign. The purpose is to 1) create create player characters that are incredibly flexible for their level, 2) encourage caution by reducing rate of resource recovery, 3) implement long lasting consequences for falling in combat and providing characters with the means to avoid it, 4) reduce hit point bloat without limiting players to basic characters, 5) eliminate delays to main class progression from multiclassing.

The rules I am considering would considerably increase a character's mechanical complexity. The game will be run for a maximum of four players with solid system mastery and DM experience. Some of the rules have been playtested in other campaigns. Others have been inspired by published rules in other editions and games. Under these rules Hit Points are used to reflect a character's capability to avoid a potentially lethal wound. Severe physical injuries are tracked separately.

I have been working on these rules for a while with occasional assistance from other DMs. I am now looking for feedback from a broader community. DMs, let me know whether you would feel comfortable running a game with these rules. What would you change or remove or tweak? Does anything stand out as potentially problematic? Players, do you see any character combinations that these rules open up that could be significantly more powerful than a hypothetical average character would be? Would these rules prompt you to craft a character that would otherwise be impractical under the default rules? How would you feel playing in a game with these rules?


All player characters have two simultaneously leveling paths. Each path is created as an independent multiclassed character using the same background, and their features and resources are combined afterwards. Spell slots from one path may be used for spells and abilities from the other path, but are tracked separately. Classes taken in one path may not be taken in the other. Path one, or the primary path, is used to determine saving throw proficiencies, hit points, and proficiency bonus. Weapon, armour, and tool proficiencies are added together from both paths. The player may choose the skill proficiencies from either path at first level, but not both. Although it does not contribute to the character’s hit point total, hit dice from both paths are combined into a single pool. The primary path may not multiclass as it gains levels. When the secondary path gains an ability score improvement, it may be used to gain a feat or to improve an ability score other than the one improved by the primary path at that level. Bonus ability score improvements for fighters and rogues are exempt from this restriction.

Almost all healing requires the expenditure of at least one hit die in order to gain its benefit. The expended hit die is rolled, added to the character’s Constitution modifier, and added to the number of hit points regained. The player being healed chooses how many hit dice to expend, up to a maximum number equal to the spell’s level or one for effects other than spells. Effects that restore an exact number of hit points (Life Cleric’s Preserve Life, Paladin’s Lay on Hands, etc.) do not require or allow the expenditure of hit dice. The Fighter’s Second Wind also does not require the expenditure of hit dice. If a character has no hit dice remaining, the effect is wasted with no effect.

When you complete a long rest, one path gains the benefits of a long rest while the other gains the benefits of a short rest. You may choose which path gains which benefit. A character regains half of the expended hit dice in their hit dice pool (rounded down, minimum one) at the end of a long rest.

When damage reduces a character to zero hit points and there is damage remaining, the character’s constitution is reduced by an amount equal to the damage remaining. The character then gains a level of exhaustion, falls unconscious, and starts dying. A dying creature makes a DC 10 death saving throw at the starts of its turn. On a failure the creature’s constitution decreases by one. After three successes a creature stabilizes and will reawaken at one hit point in 1d12 x 20 minutes. On a natural twenty the character regains one hit point and becomes conscious. A character dies if reduced to zero constitution. A character’s constitution modifier changes as their constitution is lost. This affects modifiers to attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws, save DCs, hit points, healing, and all other aspects of the game where their Constitution modifier is used. A character’s natural constitution score must be recorded somewhere on their character sheet and increases with ability score improvements spent on constitution. Default dying rules are removed.

For each level of exhaustion a character gains they suffer a stacking -1 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks, saving throws, and its saving throw DCs. For every two levels (rounded down) its movement speed is reduced by one quarter. A character recovers from one level of exhaustion at the end of a long rest. Default exhaustion rules are removed.

In order to recover lost points of constitution, a character must spend at least one hour per day per point of missing constitution (maximum ten hours) tending to their wounds and resting. Time spent resting in this fashion does not count towards a long or short rest. This activity may be broken up across the day. One charge of a healer’s kit must be expended each day. The character must also make a DC 15 Wisdom (Medicine) check. On a success the creature regains one point of constitution at the end of its next long rest. Another character may assist if they spend at least half the required time tending to the injured character. In this case, the Wisdom (Medicine) check is made using the highest modifier of the two characters. An assisting character may tend to multiple characters in a single day. A character’s constitution may not be restored beyond its natural score.

When a player character is reduced to zero hit points, they may use their reaction to fight on. The character loses points of constitution from remaining damage and gains a level of exhaustion as usual. Instead of falling unconscious, the character spends a number of hit dice equal to their proficiency bonus, rolling them adding their (possibly reduced) constitution modifier to each of them. The character regains that many hit points. A character who does not have enough hit dice remaining may not take this reaction.



I can supply the rationale behind specific aspects of the rules if it would help. Sample characters can be provided to clarify any ambiguity. Let me know if anything was unclear and I'll try to explain to the best of my abilities.

[Descole]

As I understand these rules:
All characters are Exalts gaining levels in two classes simultaneous gaining most features of both.
In addition to the normal rules of healing spells, a character must use a Hd and gets the benefits if it.
Long rest = long for one half of the character and short for the other.
Rather complicated rules for losing con as a result of damage/dying.

In my humble opinion, I believe the "exalt" rules as I will call it will overshadow anything else here. I can't even imagine combat with the damage of a Paladin/Sorcerer Exalt using both spell slot progressions to smite on every attack, or a high-level Fighter/Barbarian with advantage from reckless attack, -5/+10 and rage bonus. Or the spellcasting abilities of a Wizard/Bard as double ability score improvements will solve any MAD problems.

I actually believe this will have the opposite effect than you intended, making your players bolder rather than more causes as a Sorcerer/Warlock or Barbarian/Fighter will regain all resources on a long rest giving them more resources to fight with. After all, the best defensive spell ever created is a turn one fireball killing all enemies.

If one adjusts for the players increase in strength an Exalt game can be quite fun but there is so much variance in their strength that the game will break down at the slightest provocation. But enough of that, if you believe yourself to be ready for the challenge run it, it will be wild but fun, I think. If you have a power gamer make him look over all character to make sure you don't end up with one character dealing as much damage as all other combined / end every encounter with a single spell / roll +10-17 on every skill check.

I can't say I'm a fan of the rules concerning Hp and Hd, a much simpler way to gain a similar result is making rests take longer. Either use the 7 days for a long rest, 8 hours for a short rest, the so-called gritty rest rules. Or use the hybrid of 4 hours for a short and 24 hours for a long.

As for the problem with character heating reduced to 0 hp then immediately being healed again simply giving a level of exhaustion is enough, it takes a long rest to get rid of a single level of exhaustion after all. Personally, I use a system of short-term wounds with nasty debuffs but it is almost as complicated as yours so I won't write it here.

So all in all, Hp is only a minor part of characters capabilities and your Exalt rules will probably make the characters bolder despite the rest of your rules.

[Malifice]

I'm designing a set of houserules for a new campaign. The purpose is to 1) create create player characters that are incredibly flexible for their level

Sounds like you just want to run gestalt PCs. Considering you want to encourage caution in resource recovery, this doubles the pool of resources available to PCs. Its contrary to your next goal.


, 2) encourage caution by reducing rate of resource recovery,

Implement the gritty rest variant. Done.


3) implement long lasting consequences for falling in combat and providing characters with the means to avoid it,

Your houserule sucks. Con loss once at 0 HP? Is that for real?

Instead of that, use the Lingering injuries chart from the DMG (or a variant thereof) and a rule of: When a PC is reduced to 0 HP (and not slain outright) they can elect to remain on 1 HP and instead take the consequences of a roll on that chart. Useable 1/ short rest.

It allows for crippling injuries, but with player buy in required.


4) reduce hit point bloat without limiting players to basic characters

Hit point bloat is core to the system. It was a design goal in fact. It makes combat more predictable.

Changing this requires more work than it's worth. At that point I would just switch to a different system like Savage Worlds.


5) eliminate delays to main class progression from multiclassing.

Those delays exist for a reason.

[sophontteks]

Houserules are fine when you are adding in a bit of flare or flavor. This is an attempted overhaul. I don't think it is going to achieve what you are hoping.

[MrStabby]

This is a pretty tough question to answer as there are a lot of changes - some of them pretty fundamental and they may interact in odd ways.

Take spells like healing word and cure wounds. Healing word is generally thought of as being better but this system widens that gap further by making more in combat healing come from hit dice and letting hit dice be used in combat.

The multiclassing and paths thing is going to give a lot more power and will utterly change a lot of the trade-offs that keep some class combinations in check. For example take the sorcerer - it is a really powerful class and metamagic is a superb ability, limited by the spells the sorcerer knows (and to a lesser extent the things on it's list). Dipping another class is great and popular but it has a big downside in terms of delaying access to high level spells. If we eliminate this downside by allowing "full level" bard/sorcerers and sorcerer/warlocks then I think we could have a problem - and not just twinned spell foresight (warlock sorcerer is particularly powerful under your rules as you get to recover your full set of abilities on a long rest, not 1.5). I get that you want more power, flexibility and resources but some combinations will add a lot more than others. Other interactions that spring to mind are the arcane trickster and eldritch knight abilities to impose disadvantage on saves - a good enough ability most of the time but when you get high level spells to use those abilities on, a much broader spell selection and a higher casting stat due to more ASIs (not to mention more spell slots so it happens more times per day) you could have a hard time making enemies stick around. The druid barbarian could see a resurgence - no longer is a there a tradeoff between more powerful forms and more barbarian abilities - indeed as each path can be a multiclass and being MAD is less of an issue you could have Barbarian, Paladin, Druid also.

My advice would be to try it. I see what you are trying to do with a lot of these rules - I can see some of them working and I can see it could produce an interesting game. Don't run a whole campaign though - run about 3 or 4 sessions and to it at about the top levels of the campaign you want to run. See what abusive combinations players come up with, see what difficulty you need to handle this but as importantly see if you are happy with how quickly each player's turn goes by in combat, see if ultimately you **** what the game has become.

[Naanomi]

So... berserkers are even worse?

[Davrix]

This just seems like to much work / upkeep for everyone.

Personally opinion but I am a fan of 5th's approach of keep it simple stupid (for the most part)

If you want some flexibility give a bonus feat to everyone of Magic Initiate and maybe one other based on what background they chose. Maybe its different for your table but I have players that find it hard enough to keep track of what they have with one class, let alone double on the same character.

[Kane0]

1) create create player characters that are incredibly flexible for their level
2) encourage caution by reducing rate of resource recovery
3) implement long lasting consequences for falling in combat and providing characters with the means to avoid it
4) reduce hit point bloat without limiting players to basic characters
5) eliminate delays to main class progression from multiclassing

All player characters have two simultaneously leveling paths. Each path is created as an independent multiclassed character using the same background, and their features and resources are combined afterwards. Spell slots from one path may be used for spells and abilities from the other path, but are tracked separately. Classes taken in one path may not be taken in the other. Path one, or the primary path, is used to determine saving throw proficiencies, hit points, and proficiency bonus. Weapon, armour, and tool proficiencies are added together from both paths. The player may choose the skill proficiencies from either path at first level, but not both. Although it does not contribute to the character’s hit point total, hit dice from both paths are combined into a single pool. The primary path may not multiclass as it gains levels. When the secondary path gains an ability score improvement, it may be used to gain a feat or to improve an ability score other than the one improved by the primary path at that level. Bonus ability score improvements for fighters and rogues are exempt from this restriction.
What you're describing is basically Gestalt. A fine concept, but you will definitely want to clean up your wording to make it easier to understand. Being as simple and clear as possible will help you and your players a lot in the long run. For example, here are some Gestalt rules i've used in the past:

- At level 1 a gestalt character chooses two classes to level up in simultaneously
o The character must meet the minimum ability scores for both classes as per the multiclassing rules
o The Hit Die size of the character is the average of the two classes, rounded down
o The higher number of skill proficiencies of the two classes is used, chosen from both lists
o The character gains starting equipment and proficiency in Saving Throws as per one of the chosen classes
o The best weapon and armor proficiencies of the two classes are used
o The character gains the class features of both chosen classes
o Duplicates of identical class features such as Spellcasting, ASIs and Extra Attack are ignored
- Gestalt characters suffer a -1 to all ability scores (after generation and racial adjustment) and to their proficiency bonus
- Gestalt characters cannot multiclass, and thus also cannot become Epic Characters
- Gestalt characters can only attune to two magic items


Almost all healing requires the expenditure of at least one hit die in order to gain its benefit. The expended hit die is rolled, added to the character’s Constitution modifier, and added to the number of hit points regained. The player being healed chooses how many hit dice to expend, up to a maximum number equal to the spell’s level or one for effects other than spells. Effects that restore an exact number of hit points (Life Cleric’s Preserve Life, Paladin’s Lay on Hands, etc.) do not require or allow the expenditure of hit dice. The Fighter’s Second Wind also does not require the expenditure of hit dice. If a character has no hit dice remaining, the effect is wasted with no effect.
I would simplify this to: All magical healing is halved (include exceptions where appropriate) and when you are magically healed you can choose to spend one or more Hit Die, up to your Proficiency Bonus, and add it to the amount healed (which is not halved).


When you complete a long rest, one path gains the benefits of a long rest while the other gains the benefits of a short rest. You may choose which path gains which benefit. A character regains half of the expended hit dice in their hit dice pool (rounded down, minimum one) at the end of a long rest.
I also like to reduce the amount of Hit Die recovered after a Long Rest, I set it to your Prof Bonus

When damage reduces a character to zero hit points and there is damage remaining, the character’s constitution is reduced by an amount equal to the damage remaining. The character then gains a level of exhaustion, falls unconscious, and starts dying. A dying creature makes a DC 10 death saving throw at the starts of its turn. On a failure the creature’s constitution decreases by one. After three successes a creature stabilizes and will reawaken at one hit point in 1d12 x 20 minutes. On a natural twenty the character regains one hit point and becomes conscious. A character dies if reduced to zero constitution. A character’s constitution modifier changes as their constitution is lost. This affects modifiers to attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws, save DCs, hit points, healing, and all other aspects of the game where their Constitution modifier is used. A character’s natural constitution score must be recorded somewhere on their character sheet and increases with ability score improvements spent on constitution. Default dying rules are removed.
The Con loss is something that 5e doesn't usually touch, and is a fair amount of extra bookwork for not much payoff. The exhaustion on dropping to 0 is usually enough incentive to avoid falling to 0. Lingering Injuries are also an option.

For each level of exhaustion a character gains they suffer a stacking -1 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks, saving throws, and its saving throw DCs. For every two levels (rounded down) its movement speed is reduced by one quarter. A character recovers from one level of exhaustion at the end of a long rest. Default exhaustion rules are removed.
I'd just make the speed reduction 5' or 10' per level of exhaustion to match the other penalties. I'd also allow some way to recover exhaustion before Greater Restoration becomes available, like during a Short Rest, using Lesser Restoration or by spending Hit Die.

In order to recover lost points of constitution, a character must spend at least one hour per day per point of missing constitution (maximum ten hours) tending to their wounds and resting. Time spent resting in this fashion does not count towards a long or short rest. This activity may be broken up across the day. One charge of a healer’s kit must be expended each day. The character must also make a DC 15 Wisdom (Medicine) check. On a success the creature regains one point of constitution at the end of its next long rest. Another character may assist if they spend at least half the required time tending to the injured character. In this case, the Wisdom (Medicine) check is made using the highest modifier of the two characters. An assisting character may tend to multiple characters in a single day. A character’s constitution may not be restored beyond its natural score.
If you want to extend recovery times you can look into the DMG Rest Variants, they do a good job of this. Downtime can also be rolled into is, as there is a 'recovery' option there.

When a player character is reduced to zero hit points, they may use their reaction to fight on. The character loses points of constitution from remaining damage and gains a level of exhaustion as usual. Instead of falling unconscious, the character spends a number of hit dice equal to their proficiency bonus, rolling them adding their (possibly reduced) constitution modifier to each of them. The character regains that many hit points. A character who does not have enough hit dice remaining may not take this reaction.
Doesn't this devalue some abilities like those of the Half Orc, Long Death Monk, etc? Still, not a bad choice.


Lot to read through, marked my responses in red for you.

Oh, and if Hit Die are going to be used so much more often I'd look into some alternative way to recover them. Maybe change Potions of Healing to restore Hit Die instead of HP.

[Anonymouswizard]

Use another system!!!!

Seriously, it sounds like you want a system with broad PC capabilities, slow resource regeneration, and consequences for going down in combat. At this point you're houseruling D&D enough that you probably just want to play another game entirely. Looking through my collection, potentially Anima: Beyond Fantasy (although I believe that's out of print) only allowing ki and magic, potentially cutting regeneration speeds for everything in half. Bare in mind that magic in Anima is explicitly set up to be a potential case of 'nova, wait for a week for it to return to full', with characters with very high magical abilities being able to cast cheap spells for free (for example 135 MA lets you throw around basic attack spells without spending any mana, a beginning caster is lucky to have about 30 MA and increasing it costs half your level up points).

[Gryndle]

I am all for house rules and customizing the game to fit you and the folks at your table. but the changes you propose are so drastic that I have to echo the others that say just find another system closer to your desires.

If I was invited to join a game of D&D and showed up to find these rules in effect.....I would likely only be there for that one session as the changes are so far out of line with the base expectations of the core system.

[Davrix]

I am all for house rules and customizing the game to fit you and the folks at your table. but the changes you propose are so drastic that I have to echo the others that say just find another system closer to your desires.

If I was invited to join a game of D&D and showed up to find these rules in effect.....I would likely only be there for that one session as the changes are so far out of line with the base expectations of the core system.

This

Its one thing to have some special rules because of setting or story.... Even maybe some extreme ones if your table is wanting a certain feel like say some heavy combat alterations but this is just so far beyond even any of that and I probably wouldn't be sticking around either at a table because in the end its no longer 5th ed.

[Kane0]

Or, maybe the OP has already considered this with his players and they have come to the conclusion that they would prefer to use 5e and make some changes as they see fit.
Just a thought.

[Anonymouswizard]

Or, maybe the OP has already considered this with his players and they have come to the conclusion that they would prefer to use 5e and make some changes as they see fit.
Just a thought.

On the one hand it's a possibility.

On the other hand you see 'how can I use D&D for X' so much without the people considering other systems that it's not an unreasonable assumption until explicitly confirmed/denied. Plus it's always fun to do 'I want X, give me a system' even if they didn't ask for it, plus it gets you thinking about non d&d systems so it's still useful.

[bid]

Use another system!!!!
That's about it.

There are so many good systems, thouroughly played and balanced. Why reinvent the wheel?

[Kane0]

On the one hand it's a possibility.

On the other hand you see 'how can I use D&D for X' so much without the people considering other systems that it's not an unreasonable assumption until explicitly confirmed/denied. Plus it's always fun to do 'I want X, give me a system' even if they didn't ask for it, plus it gets you thinking about non d&d systems so it's still useful.

Then ideally there should he just as many replies considering the changes than there are promoting another system, no? Because i’m not seeing much actual critique.

[Anonymouswizard]

Then ideally there should he just as many replies considering the changes than there are promoting another system, no? Because i’m not seeing much actual critique.

I counted. 5/14 replies are 'use another system', about 6/14 (depending on how you count) about the houserules, of which at least two are detailed critique and the other four are more high level.

So yeah, basic arithmetic is your friend :smallsmile:

[Unoriginal]

Then ideally there should he just as many replies considering the changes than there are promoting another system, no? Because i’m not seeing much actual critique.

That there is several possibilities don't mean the possibilities are equal.

And while a detailed critique would be nice, it'd also quite redundant, as other people have already said more or less everything relevant that can be said.

It's not a fault to go directly to the conclusion, then.

Also telling people to consider another system isn't a slight against them. It's simply that sometime you're set on an idea for various reasons when there are more fitting alternatives elsewhere.

[bid]

I counted. 5/14 replies are 'use another system', about 6/14 (depending on how you count) about the houserules, of which at least two are detailed critique and the other four are more high level.

So yeah, basic arithmetic is your friend :smallsmile:
And you are very generous.

I count 3 "critique" and 6 "not working".

Gestalt + gritty seems the only way to reach the stated goal.


2 - critique
3 - not working, use gestalt and gritty rest
4 - not working
5 - critique
6 - not working for berserkers
7 - not working
8 - critique
9 - use another system
10 - not working
11 - not working
12 - meta
13 - meta
14 - use another system
15 - meta
16 - meta

[Anonymouswizard]

And you are very generous.

I count 3 "critique" and 6 "not working".

Gestalt + gritty seems the only way to reach the stated goal.


2 - critique
3 - not working, use gestalt and gritty rest
4 - not working
5 - critique
6 - not working for berserkers
7 - not working
8 - critique
9 - use another system
10 - not working
11 - not working
12 - meta
13 - meta
14 - use another system
15 - meta
16 - meta
17 - not working, use another system
18 - meta
19 -meta

Yeah, we're using different criteria. The point still stands, there are more posts on the houserules than there are 'use another system' posts.

Update in bold.

[sophontteks]

There is a good reason why there are no critiques. We are not paid developers. We respect how much work it takes to make a balanced system and frankly these changes are too much for anyone to make an intelligent observation when it comes to balance and impact.

I strongly doubt that it will do what the OP wants. Smaller more subtle changes would fair much better because there are far less extraneous variables.

[Citan]

Hi OP!

Let's put aside the pointless debate on "answer quality" (it's easy guys: there are not many critiques because all the smart things have been told already).

I'll push Malifice's orientation here: the DMG proposes several variant mechanics, several of which should help you reach your goal while being much easier to track and understand for everyone.

As for making Gestalt characters: I'd suggest something much, much simpler: remove the "char level 20 capping" then...
- Either halve the amount of XP required for leveling (so basically you push up to 40).
- Or tell players that each time they gain a level they can actually pick two but in different classes.
Follow otherwise all the usual rules including multiclassing ones.

That + Gritty Rest should ensure that players are never overpowered (you'll have to adapt encounters, but it won't be a brain-melter until they reach "total char level 30+" so you'll have time to learn and adapt until that moment) while giving them plenty of space to build crazy original characters.
If you really want to make things extra hard, just say that people gain a level of Exhaustion when an encounter ends if, during that encounter, they reach a point where they had two failed death saves before getting back up. That's largely harsh enough imo (let's not forget that just one level makes you roll checks at disadvantage, and you're dead in five levels. So I wouldn't personnally implement that unless I also give alternative ways to reduce exhaustion).

(If you want to be extra nice, give them a free feat at level 1 from a selection and a higher point-buy pool like 32 so they can safely spend most ASI on feats without regrets).