Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?

[Present 2.0]

So, which universe with superpowers(whether it's magic, psi-powers, futuristic technology, ki/chakra or mutants) gives everyone a relatively equal chance at getting superpowers. That means:

-No races or families, that make some people much more powerful than others.
-The means to get superpowers must be publicly aviable and not be a secret, that only a few know about.
-Everyone can learn the same stuff. Something, where everyone has powers, but every has totally different superpowers like MHA is nice for individuality, but not so much for equality.

I think, the closest example I can think of, is FMA.

[Zmeoaice]

Big Hero Six (and the series) might qualify. The superpowers were invented by a bunch of college kids using SCIENCE, meaning anyone can use them and they could likely be easily replicated.

Most villains tend to also be tech based except for Globby who ended up basically becoming Metamorpho due to a freak accident with Honey Lemon's chemicals and Krei's headband.

[Lord Raziere]

So, which universe with superpowers(whether it's magic, psi-powers, futuristic technology, ki/chakra or mutants) gives everyone a relatively equal chance at getting superpowers. That means:

-No races or families, that make some people much more powerful than others.
-The means to get superpowers must be publicly aviable and not be a secret, that only a few know about.
-Everyone can learn the same stuff. Something, where everyone has powers, but every has totally different superpowers like MHA is nice for individuality, but not so much for equality.

I think, the closest example I can think of, is FMA.

It might be a relative thing. Hm.

any world with the powers being secret to the public at large is automatically out: Bleach, Dresden Files, WoD, and so on.

Most superhero universes are out: DC, Marvel, MHA, One Piece, Naruto, Fairy Tail, and other such things

Avatar the Last Airbender, ALMOST seems equal, but with unique benders like blood benders it gets disqualified and while the normal bendings are all pretty balanced against one another, they're not the same stuff.

hm.....does "having a giant mecha" count as a superhero power? Because Gundam seems to give everyone those, the only problem being that some people have super-prototype mecha? which muddies the issue, because while sometimes the super-prototypes get equaled by mass-produced version, the protags can just get new super-prototypes.

hm, a cyberpunk universe might count for this, but then again the cybernetics to give you superpowers are probably pretty expensive......assuming you don't just go into debt getting them. which would be in genre for cyberpunk. so, a super-punk setting where people just BUY powers but poor has to go into debt for it....I don't think I've heard of any particular setting for that, but it sounds close to what you want.

I'm legit trying to think of something here.....theoretically, Wuxia in its purest form is actually all about power equality. like Kung-Fu Panda. after all the reveal in that movie is all about how there is no secret to being a kung fu master- just hard work. but then again the superpower there becomes "how short it takes for you to learn kung fu." because if you learn it faster than others, your pretty much unbeatable.

now Eclipse Phase and other such things being a transhuman rpg, seems like its pretty equal given that you can purchase all your transhuman upgrades, which is like cyberpunk but more advanced.

so hm. your probably looking for a transhuman setting if we're talking about freely available superpowers. but even then there is the fact that the real superpower there is godlike Artificial intelligences whose IQ increase exponentially until they can basically calculate everything to manipulate the situation to however they want. which isn't equal at all.

[Ibrinar]

So no magic is not secret but mages try to keep the how secret, either? So something like "The Bartimaeus Trilogy" is out (magicians have no innate power they summon being and for summoning you just need to know the right words and symbols, but they don't tell that to non mages.) I assume a skill limit would still be okay, as in anyone could learn but for many it is just too hard to master?

Anyway I don't know much about it but couldn't anyone multiclass into caster classes in D&D even if their stats might make that a bad choice?

Some settings with pure ritual magic should count https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RitualMagic

[Khedrac]

One possibility is the future of PS238 (http://ps238.nodwick.com/).

The current time is a fairly standard comic-book supers universe - so not fair at all, some have and some do not, but an event has happened which means that gradually everyone will become a super. (This appears to be that mroe and more people will be born with spuer powers until the last perosn without dies of old age.) - So not a fair world now, but is likely to become one.

Thinking about it, worlds that you would class as "fair" are unlikely to be good worlds for stories, so examples are not going to be easy to find...

[Present 2.0]

Thinking about it, worlds that you would class as "fair" are unlikely to be good worlds for stories, so examples are not going to be easy to find...

Would it be really that difficult to take dragonballs Ki-Powers, make Kage-Sennins school public knowledge, take the advantage from Saiyans away and tell a story in that universe.

Hey, Naruto is almost there. Yes, the Jutsu aren't public knowledge and are hidden in the ninja villages, but the story is completely inside them, so it makes no difference for the viewer, that normal people can't learn jutsus, because they don't matter. There are the kekkei genkai, but those become storybreaker pretty late and I don't think, it would be impossible to tell narutos story without kekkei genkais.

[Anonymouswizard]

So, which universe with superpowers(whether it's magic, psi-powers, futuristic technology, ki/chakra or mutants) gives everyone a relatively equal chance at getting superpowers. That means:

-No races or families, that make some people much more powerful than others.
-The means to get superpowers must be publicly aviable and not be a secret, that only a few know about.
-Everyone can learn the same stuff. Something, where everyone has powers, but every has totally different superpowers like MHA is nice for individuality, but not so much for equality.

I think, the closest example I can think of, is FMA.

In some varieties of Wuxia natural talent basically means nothing at the higher levels. Sure, if both have trained for a thousand hours with the same style then the one with more natural talent will win, but if only the talentless one put in the work than the talented one will find their rear having a boot applied. Although even there you can have problems learning a particular style if your body isn't used to it that seems to be relatively rare in the wuxia I've encountered. The secret to power is to learn martial arts.

In Fullmetal Alchemist there is certainly a tendency for alchemists to run in families, although this seems to just be the case of alchemists are likely to teach their kids alchemy. There's also a massive, massive tendency to keep the 'strong' powers a secret, only Roy Mustang knows how to make Flame Alchemy work, Armstrong seems to have something going on that's unusual, even Ed is noted to be keeping his developments secret.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Magic in Elenium/Tamuli is available to anyone that wants to put in the time to learn the language of a deity willing to grant said magic, and there are literally hundreds of them, some of which are really not picky about who they grant powers to. The stories being set in medieval times, though, it means that that kind of education is well out of reach for most of the population, but if a moderately successful thief can manage it, anyone probably can, with just a modicum of application.

GW

[Lord Raziere]

Would it be really that difficult to take dragonballs Ki-Powers, make Kage-Sennins school public knowledge, take the advantage from Saiyans away and tell a story in that universe.

Hey, Naruto is almost there. Yes, the Jutsu aren't public knowledge and are hidden in the ninja villages, but the story is completely inside them, so it makes no difference for the viewer, that normal people can't learn jutsus, because they don't matter. There are the kekkei genkai, but those become storybreaker pretty late and I don't think, it would be impossible to tell narutos story without kekkei genkais.

Lets see on Dragon Ball:
Well there is at least two universal power ups in that universe:
Kaio-Ken which is a technique that pushes the limits of your body at the cost of wrecking it after wards

Ultra-Instinct, which is just "I fight so good that my body is moving on its own to do the fighting for me like I'm in the matrix" taken up to eleventy-billion.

and I have been doing a dragon ball roleplay where people of various races just have super forms as a part of universal laws of martial arts and biology. they're not exactly the same as super-saiyans, but when you invent a martial arts style based on cosplay and your super form is basically cosplaying Asriel Dreamurr, who cares? variety is cool. and it hasn't really impacted it at all.

While Naruto........eh. here is the thing: most of the ninjas you see in the show come from ninja families. Naruto's dad and mom were a ninja, Sasuke's parents were ninja, all the other Rookie Nine were ninjas aside from Sakura and Lee and maybe Ten-ten who didn't have good showings, and Rock Lee is a particularly unequal case as he is unable to form chakra techniques at all and has to rely purely on taijutsu. I mean he got to Chuunin/Jounin yes, and Might Gai was a Jounin so while its technically possible for a pure Taijutsu user to not only be a good ninja but an ELITE ninja, its going up against all the kids who've had family training, officials keeping tabs on their progress since they were kids, and freaking Jinchuuriki who are basically the ninja equivalent of super-weapons, thats not equal at all. the fact that a vast majority of the elite ninjas come from ninja family backgrounds kind of is not equal at all. Rock Lee, Might Guy are pretty much guys who broke a ceiling somewhere.

bottom line: I wouldn't call Naruto near equal at all. and thats not even getting into reincarnation stupidity, or the Rinnegan. I mean, the Kote in the Boruto series is probably a bit of an equalizer since its a hax tech that can fire any jutsu from it ever without skill, but its not in common use yet.

[Rater202]

Uh... Honestly, in terms of "chance to get super-powers," Marvel's probably the fairest: Most of the human race are the descendants of a group of Homo Erectus who were genetically engineered with the Cosmic Tier Magiscience of the Celestials.

The mutants are the most prominent of these experiments, followed by either the Inhumans(Who the Kree genetically engineered from Neaderthal's who had the same gene that eventually mutated into the X-Gene in mutants) or the Gamma Gene which gives you personality powers when you're exposed to Gamma radiation(The Hulk being the most prominent example.)

Then there are just people with "inherent genetic potential to mutate" which covers your Spider-Men and your Fantastic Fours.

Every Superhuman who didn't have a mutagen fed to them and a good number who did get super-powers because they had the inherent potential to do so.

For every mutant, there are about two people who have the X-Gene latently which can be activated by outside sources(The Mutant the Whizzer got his X-gene activated when he was transfused with irradiated Mongoose Blood) and dozens who actually have the gene, while the "latent potential to mutate" present in most mutates seems to be rather widely distributed, as is the Gamma Gene, and it seems like every major city in the world has at least a dozen people with Inhuman ancestry and the Inhuman gene from both parents.

Not to mention that most Super Soldier Serums, the Goblin Formula and it's variants, the Connors formula and it's variants, Pym Particles, Parker Particles, cybernetics, bonding to a symbiote, and having mutant/mutate DNA grafted to your Genome works on everyone and there are ways to give the X-Gene to people who don't naturally have it, anybody can learn to channel their chi, and you can find minor magic rituals that anyone can do on the internet. If you're willing to stretch the definition of Super Powers a bit, technically speaking Daredevil's Radar Sense is a learned skill: Matt's enhanced senses and need to compensate for his loss of vision gave him an advantage in unlocking and developing the skill, but anyone can learn how to do it if they're willing to do some extreme training. Likewise, a great deal of what seems to be super science in the Marvel Universe is just the Marvel Universe's tech level being more advanced than it looks--An issue of Ms. Marvel from a few years ago had not one but two separate high school science fair teams casually solve the Energy Crisis with all other entrants on the same level. One of the kids at Avenger's Academy was explicitly just a normal kid who happened to be good enough at robotics to fix and reprogram a damaged Sentinel he found.

It seems that most people in Marvel Earth have the potential to get Super-Human powers.

Whether or not those powers are any good or not is another question(It's basically a game of Super Powered Roulette), but just about anybody can get them.

[HolyDraconus]

I say dragonball. Ultra Instinct is currently the highest obtainable skill, and its NOT race specific. Literally its train till you max out your power, then train to max out skill.

[Lord Raziere]

I say dragonball. Ultra Instinct is currently the highest obtainable skill, and its NOT race specific. Literally its train till you max out your power, then train to max out skill.

Problem: That power ceiling is VERY high. and Saiyans have the inherent advantage of getting stronger every time they nearly die, and various power ups BEFORE that. that can basically reach it faster than any human.

that and there is the Bio-Android Cell. He is basically genetic biology as a hax frankenstein combo to make sure he is a tireless, ever-regenerating from a single cell, ever nonsexual reproducing super weapon. HE can probably get ultra instinct to. and still have his hax biology backing it up. you think Goku is bad, wait until Cell has it and out-endures Jiren and Goku. Then his Cell Juniors achieve ultra-instinct to.

oh and there is the Angels, who are REALITY WARPERS in addition to having Ultra-Instinct on at all times.

and Zeno who can just erase everything with a literal wave of his hand without ki powers.

then there is the Androids who who infinite energy engines who currently don't share their infinite energy engines and cybernetics to fight better with no one, so not really equal.

then there was that ridiculous bull Zamasu pulled. anyone who wishes for immortality has a REAL unfair advantage.

not equal. there are a lot of ways to break Dragon Ball if you know its hax abilities.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Is a superpower even still a superpower if everyone gets it?

[Ibrinar]

In the sense that it doesn't follow normal physics, yes, but yeah people of the world would probably not call it a super power.

[Traab]

Im going with naruto, because as far as we can tell, any child can learn to be a ninja. Yes there are specific bloodline skills and other such things that not everyone can learn, but as we see in the series, you dont have to have those skills to win.

[Lord Raziere]

Is a superpower even still a superpower if everyone gets it?

Yeah, thats the problem with such "everyone gets the same superpower" settings, that ol' Syndrome quote applies.

so, a fair superpower setting would be one where not everyone gets superpowers, but you have to fairly earn the right to have them, like a test or a challenge or being taught. you don't get them until you prove your worthy to wield them correctly, and the villains are the ones who cheat their way into power and use it irresponsibly.

like, you can theoretically learn any power, but its like choosing a college major: you have to earn it, and you can't choose them all. and of course you have to obey all the ethics and moral rules of wielding the power you choose, and the practical pragmatic considerations of having it. (like Midoriya/Deku's constant breaking of his bones because he has super strength but no invulnerability to go with it)

so eeeeh, Wuxia and settings like Dragon Ball and Naruto are a little better than super-mutant settings like MHA or Marvel by that metric, because then anyone can theoretically gain A superpower through training but not everyone EARNS it, because by fair means they didn't cut the mustard. like if you found a guy who want to fly but was bad at the necessary skills to be a good flier, and no matter how hard he tries he still isn't cutting the mustard, then its pretty fair that he doesn't get the power, yes? because if he did, he'd just screw it up. or someone who wants to wield fire but clearly isn't following safety rules of wielding fire, so its fair that they don't get the power because you don't want things on fire.

so I think the questions to ask are: what is a fair reason for someone to NOT get superpowers? that is what all these settings struggle with. and what is a fair reason for a villain to get them anyways, without compromising the overall fairness?

[Ibrinar]

I believe in the anime From the New World every human has the same powerset though some are stronger than other I think. Or maybe that only applies to the ones there and the outside wold might have non psychics can't remember. IThe non psychic got turned into monster rats but I don't know whether that is a global or local thing.

Edit: One Piece! You just need to dope with the right fruit once. Yes this is a different super powers case but technically if you can get your hand on it you can pick a power so everybody has the chance to get that power. But I guess powerful factions should have an easier time getting fruits.

[Battleship789]

The magic from Warbreaker would probably contend for this. Everyone is born with a spark of divine power, called a Breath. Magic is done by commanding the Breath to inhabit an inanimate object, which will then follow orders. However, most animation requires more than a single Breath, and the more Breath one has, the more abilities are gained (perfect pitch/hue, immunity to diseases, and immortality are some of the abilities gained by holders of large amounts of Breath.) Breath can only be given to someone else by a certain command, so it may not be stolen (though, torture and trickery may be used to take the breath).

There are people who, when they die, are reincarnated as a Returned. A Returned has a single, very large, Breath that gives them many of the above abilities (immortality among them), but they must burn a Breath every week or they will die, so it isn't a very large benefit.

[Mechalich]

I believe in the anime From the New World every human has the same powerset though some are stronger than other I think. Or maybe that only applies to the ones there and the outside wold might have non psychics can't remember.

That is true, but that series is built on a massive unfairness.

The big reveal of the series is that the people with powers converted all the humans who did not have powers into rat-folk and used them as slaves forever. So it's just full on social stratification, where those with powers rule over those who do not have powers.


Im going with naruto, because as far as we can tell, any child can learn to be a ninja. Yes there are specific bloodline skills and other such things that not everyone can learn, but as we see in the series, you dont have to have those skills to win.

Naruto is massively unfair. Ninjutsu are only available to everyone in theory, not in practice. Capability is simply mediated by chakra instead. Many, almost certanly the overwhelming majority, of people do not have chakra reserves sufficient to perform any jutsu at all. Even some ninja are stuck at low levels for their entire careers do to their inability to perform potent techniques. Naruto is like most shounen series in that it is built around a central lie: claiming that the massive prodigy who serves as the protagonist is actually a screw up.

[gooddragon1]

D&D 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm). The wizard is the example of a college degree (I'm not sure which level of degree though) granting a level of power that might rival the of Jiren.

[Jay R]

"And when I'm old and I've had my fun, I'll sell my inventions so that everyone can be superheroes. Everyone can be super! And when everyone's super... <Mad cackle> ... no one will be. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmSO2cz2ozQ)"

[AgentofOdd]

The most extreme example I can think of is what happens at the end of the "The Banned and the Banished" series.

The main character changes things so that instead of a few people being born with magical abilities, all available power is distributed evenly among the people. So everyone is equally "powered up." But, the diluted magic doesn't really do much for one person. Instead of the elemental powers few people used to get, now everyone gets a small boost to a random ability. For example one person might bake really well, while another might be really good at sculpting.

[Traab]

That is true, but that series is built on a massive unfairness.

The big reveal of the series is that the people with powers converted all the humans who did not have powers into rat-folk and used them as slaves forever. So it's just full on social stratification, where those with powers rule over those who do not have powers.



Naruto is massively unfair. Ninjutsu are only available to everyone in theory, not in practice. Capability is simply mediated by chakra instead. Many, almost certanly the overwhelming majority, of people do not have chakra reserves sufficient to perform any jutsu at all. Even some ninja are stuck at low levels for their entire careers do to their inability to perform potent techniques. Naruto is like most shounen series in that it is built around a central lie: claiming that the massive prodigy who serves as the protagonist is actually a screw up.

And yet we are told specifically how everyone can get that chakra. Hard training. Power isnt handed out for free, you have to bust your rump working for it, but, genetic defects aside, there is nothing stopping jill or joe blow from becoming strong ninjas. Heck, even genetic defects like rock lee can become massively powerful just by having an insane trainer and the guts and willpower to keep working at it. Everyone can become super strong, super fast, super tough. They may not all end up with cookie cutter cloned skills with each other but thats generally a matter of personal preference and what type of ninja magic you are best suited for.

[Aeson]

Some video game settings might qualify. In The Elder Scrolls, for example, it appears that, at least from Morrowind onwards, everyone has the potential to learn magic, and in Oblivion and Skyrim maximum potential - at least for player characters - is very similar regardless of starting race and birthsign. Another example might be Dungeon Siege, if you assume the player character to be typical of the average peasant in the setting.

[tensai_oni]

Pokemon of course. Everyone can theoretically catch the same Pokemon, if their own creatures are strong enough to beat them into submission (and if they're lucky with the catch RNG). Controling a legendary nigh-omnipotent being counts as a superpower, right?

Less facetious answers: not sure if it's the most fair, but Nanoha is definitely one of the more fair universes. Anyone can learn to use magic and unless you're born on some backwater (like Earth for example), you also have good opportunities to do so. Moreover, not only does the series state that any natural talent or inborn abilities you may have aren't anywhere as important as steady long-term improvement through hard work, it generally* follows through with its own message as opposed to preaching one thing and then doing the other. On Midchilda, magic is just another skill people can have, practice and improve, and not everyone uses it for the same reason not everyone is a martial artist or an aeronautical engineer in real life.

*Just ignore anything Vivio does

[gooddragon1]

If a made up one would work: a combination of drowtales with everything having mana and the peaceful nature of MLP would be perfect for this.

[NovenFromTheSun]

I've never seen One Peice, but can't anyone there get powers from eating a devil fruit? Albeit, from what I've heard those might be hard to find.

[Lord Raziere]

I've never seen One Peice, but can't anyone there get powers from eating a devil fruit? Albeit, from what I've heard those might be hard to find.

At the same time, those Fruits can be massively unfair in what they actually DO, because each one is different, and there are some are so hax, while others are very weak in comparison. its essentially a lottery of what you get, only instead of birth like most, its at eating it, so your lottery superpower is opt-in, which is more fair than "heres what your born with, if you got "made of fire" as you superpower, tough luck!"

there is also Haki which serves as "normal" superpower attained through pure training one piece, but only two are available to everyone, the third is known as Kings Haki, is apparently only available to a certain weird bloodline and is massively unfair because its basically a mark of a superpower or leader. there is also merpeople and fishmen who can breathe underwater and have their own unfairness, because they can do things underwater while Devil Fruit users all drown in water. so race unfairness, also against the OP's specifications.

As for Naruto's magic:
well keep in mind it has a certain elemental affinity going on even if you don't have a bloodline- there are people that just better at fire jutsu than water jutsu, even if they're common folk and then there is genjutsu to think about. illusions that require certain levels of chakra control.

also keep in mind the ability to wield chakra was infused into humanity through a fruit from an alien tree designed to suck the world dry for some alien rinnegan ninja's experiment or something. so. thats a thing. one could say that Rock Lee is closer to how humanity naturally or originally WAS in Naruto before chakra was introduced. so its less a genetic defect and more a throwback to before a mutation that got introduced.

Pokemon could work as a fair superpower setting, depending on your interpretation. There is the anime interpretation and the mechanistic interpretation:

Anime Interpretation:
The anime interpretation of pokemon is that while types matter, as long as you train your pokemon right you can overcome the weaknesses they have and kick ass with any pokemon you want, and that any pokemon can be awesome. The idea that all pokemon are Magikarp in some way but can become Gyarados to some degree.

The Mechanistic Interpretation:
This interpretation is more about the games and how the actual mechanics of pokemon hash out. By the games actual mechanics, there is a massive tier list of which pokemon better or worse than others, as well as how certain type match ups are simply better than others in more situations. For example, most Ice types are not consider very good, so most people don't use types but pokemon that have better defensive typings given ice type moves that are offensively good. at the same time, the pokemon meta is one where people make mostly weather teams to just outright overpower people with their chosen type, which is mostly sunny day or rain dance. then there is the fact that mechanically, the best pokemon you can have are ones you have bred obsessively to produce perfect IVs so that they're inherently better than anything you find in the wild at birth and outclass the pokemon you've built memories with on your journey through the game. so mechanically speaking, there is in fact a lot of unfairness, as there are entire classes of pokemon that outpower and out-versatility most others, and its not just legendaries. I mean hell, Articuno is on the lowest tier at PU, so not even legendaries are immune to being outclassed.

Which would of course in the pokmonverse lead to rich kids and so on breeding pokemon to be the most powerful and generally treating them as objects to win them battles, and thus be a more cynical version of the pokemon universe we know and love. the more successful pokemon criminals wouldn't be stealing pokemon- they'd be capturing and forcefully breeding them and selling the offspring on black markets. the only reason to actually steal a pokemon is if your really desperate or want to do resource denial/emotional manipulation upon trainers, and that is if your being suboptimal about the stealing of pokemon. if you want optimal pokemon stealing, you hack into the global pokemon trading/transportation network and start redirecting all the pokemon being transferred to teleport to you instead, or even just teleport pokeballs right out of the trainers hands. so really, the pokemon universe is only fair as long as you don't think about how you can exploit the technology and rules it uses as background plot device.

[deuterio12]

In Touhou seemingly everybody if not anything can learn how to use spellcards even if you are just a bird or bug or ordinary human. Some get them seemingly from natural talent but others is explicitly hard work. And with said spellcards you have a shot at defeating the gods themselves.

[Kitten Champion]

Warcraft.

Every race - well, a significant amount of races - of either sex or socioeconomic class can become an Adventurer, including the Undead. Adventurers become really quite objectively powerful with effort and experience, though share relative parity between them... for the most part.

With the possible exception of Medivh, children don't inherit supernatural powers based on their lineage -- they acquire it as individuals. There are a lot of ways of accruing power - be they mystical or mundane - if you put the effort into them. The influential characters in the setting aren't exclusive to any specific power-set, if they have any superpowers to begin with.

[Razade]

At the same time, those Fruits can be massively unfair in what they actually DO, because each one is different, and there are some are so hax, while others are very weak in comparison. its essentially a lottery of what you get, only instead of birth like most, its at eating it, so your lottery superpower is opt-in, which is more fair than "heres what your born with, if you got "made of fire" as you superpower, tough luck!"

there is also Haki which serves as "normal" superpower attained through pure training one piece, but only two are available to everyone, the third is known as Kings Haki, is apparently only available to a certain weird bloodline and is massively unfair because its basically a mark of a superpower or leader. there is also merpeople and fishmen who can breathe underwater and have their own unfairness, because they can do things underwater while Devil Fruit users all drown in water. so race unfairness, also against the OP's specifications.


There's only three "ultimate" Fruits. Every other fruit is all how you use it. Lucci says it at Enis Lobby. There are no weak fruits, just weak people. It's also known as Conqueror's Haki in the English Dub and that's all people say about it but having it doesn't seem to make you better. It's just willpower. Fishman also have massive unfairness as they're basically kept in the undersea ghetto. So for all that power...yeah. They're not as powerful as all that in the end.

[Mechalich]

There's only three "ultimate" Fruits. Every other fruit is all how you use it. Lucci says it at Enis Lobby. There are no weak fruits, just weak people.

Important fact about superhero universes in general: a lot of what people say about stuff in-universe is complete BS compared to how the universe actual works when you look at how actions unfold. In the context of shounen manga - which includes One Piece, Naruto, and others - this is extremely pertinent. Your average shounen universe is terribly designed with world-building verisimilitude that shatters at the slightest examination.

[Lord Raziere]

Important fact about superhero universes in general: a lot of what people say about stuff in-universe is complete BS compared to how the universe actual works when you look at how actions unfold. In the context of shounen manga - which includes One Piece, Naruto, and others - this is extremely pertinent. Your average shounen universe is terribly designed with world-building verisimilitude that shatters at the slightest examination.

Yeah, in practice? Door door Fruit and Giraffe Fruit ain't all that great. and that resurrection fruit the skeleton bard ate? actually sucks cause it only works once and made him into a skeleton that is actually pretty fragile. lava fruit canonically straight up overpowers fire fruit. the lightning fruit and light fruits are hax in their own ways, as is that stupid shadow stealing fruit that one guy that made zombies somehow. honestly, Whitebeard was lucky to get his earthquake fruit and Blackbeard even luckier to get a fruit that steals one other fruits power.

the only person in One Piece that gets to say they got to the top without any BS is Gold Roger, because he became the Pirate King without eating any devil fruit. everyone including Luffy, will always be a pale shadow compared to that. thats the real reason why let himself be executed while letting everyone else have a go: because he knew that everyone else would seek a devil fruit to help do it instead and thus use a crutch.....and thus never outshine him.

[Rater202]

The Straw Hat's musician eventually figured out how to tap his fruit's power to astral project at will and freeze things with the chill of the grave.

The being a skeleton thing was more circumstance: His fruit let him come back to life, but it was foggy and he got lost: his flesh rotted away by the time he made it back to his body.

Those are pretty cool powers.

That's kind of what they mean when they say that most fruits it depends on the user. A determined or creative user can mak lame powers work while a cowardly or lazy person will squander good ones.

Buggy the Clown is categorically immune to being cut or pierced due to his power to split himself reflexively activating to protect himslf in a setting where most people use swords, daggers, axes, or guns in combat.(Statistically, most of his enemies won't be able to hurt him.)

His split off limbs can function remotely, levitate, and seemed to be stronger off of his body than on, giving him partial access to fight and fucntionally grants him TK and Superhuman strength.

The narrative treats him like a joke: He was a starter villain and then a gag and is only respected In-Universe because of coincidences that made him look like a major Badass to people who didn't have the full details and that's still treated as a joke.

Why? He has an objectively awesome and useful power...

It's because he's a coward and lacks creativity.

[Lord Raziere]

I dunno about that.

Buggy's power doesn't seem all that great. the problem with saying that it all depends on the persons creativity and such, is that until the uses are actually shown, we can only assume what is shown is the full extent of their power. otherwise we end up with near-reality warping rules-lawyering and weird metaphorical/conceptual/figurative uses for a power. we have no word on applications of the power the Buggy COULD have but isn't achieving, so saying that is useless.

and a freaking giraffe still isn't equal to earthquakes or lightning.

[Chromascope3D]

Gonna say Hunter x Hunter. Literally everyone has the potential to learn Nen, and while some have greater potential to learn it than others, that comes from the conditions in which a person is raised, rather than just being an inherent gift from birth. Nen potential ultimately has no bearing on a person's peak strength (only the rate at which they achieve it) and Nen combat itself is more of a matter of using your powers creatively to outwit your opponent, rather than just achieving a high enough power level to steamroll everyone else. Not to mention that Nen can have a wide variety of non-combat uses as well*, and while Nen itself is kept secret from the public by the Hunter Association, there are plenty of people who manage to develop it anyway with no formal training at all, just by tempering their minds and perfecting their skills and crafts.


*Essentially, any action that can be performed by a person can be enhanced by Nen, so long as the person doing so stays dedicated to mastering that action

[Eldan]

Some video game settings might qualify. In The Elder Scrolls, for example, it appears that, at least from Morrowind onwards, everyone has the potential to learn magic, and in Oblivion and Skyrim maximum potential - at least for player characters - is very similar regardless of starting race and birthsign. Another example might be Dungeon Siege, if you assume the player character to be typical of the average peasant in the setting.

Soooort of, except every Elder Scrolls protagonist is also a divine avatar, so that screws things up a bit.

I was about to name Worm, until I thought about it more. It's still an interesting variation. Powers are gained by stress and trauma. Which means that in the developed world, most superheroes are accident survivors, abuse victims, survivors of accidents or violence or just mentally ill. And while the developing world is only tangentially mentioned, we're also told that wars only ever escalate upwards, just from the fact that refugees and child soldiers tend to gain powers.

But then I remembered that what I just wrote is not actually entirely true, but there would be massive spoilers.

[Razade]

Important fact about superhero universes in general: a lot of what people say about stuff in-universe is complete BS compared to how the universe actual works when you look at how actions unfold. In the context of shounen manga - which includes One Piece, Naruto, and others - this is extremely pertinent. Your average shounen universe is terribly designed with world-building verisimilitude that shatters at the slightest examination.

But that isn't in universe. That's the author saying it. Like. Literal word of God.


Yeah, in practice? Door door Fruit and Giraffe Fruit ain't all that great. and that resurrection fruit the skeleton bard ate? actually sucks cause it only works once and made him into a skeleton that is actually pretty fragile.

The Door Door Fruit made the user one of the best assassins in the world and on top of his other powers made him a serious combatant. Used more efficiently, the Door Door Fruit would be hax. The doors are instant transportation between two points for one. A person with a ranged weapon could become one of the most horrifying snipers if afforded the time to move about. Which ya know. When you can basically teleport, you're afforded the time. He can even make doors on other people, disabling them. It's a stronger version of the Mirror Mirror Fruit that we saw on Brulee in a lot of ways. Way more practical at the very least.

The Ushi Ushi no Mi: Giraffe Model was one of the biggest examples of how a Devil Fruit is never useless. The Fruit gives a massive physical strength boost, impressive reach which coupled with a strong fighter was shown to make them an equal to Zoro and we saw just how a strong opponent can turn a weakness (the long neck) into an actual bonus. That reach is in part because of that huge neck.

Rater covered Brook's fruit. It's so much more crazy when you know that it dominates all other SOULS out of their bodies and grants cryokenisis powers as well as Astral Projection.


lava fruit canonically straight up overpowers fire fruit.

And Rubber Fruit straight up overpowers Lightning Fruit. So ya know. It works both ways. Or Wax Fruit overpowers Deadly Poison Fruit.


the lightning fruit and light fruits are hax in their own ways, as is that stupid shadow stealing fruit that one guy that made zombies somehow.

Except all but the Light Fruit has stated weaknesses. One of them, the Lightning Fruit, I mentioned above. The Kage Kage no Mi has so many weaknesses. Direct Sunlight being one. Just removing shadows (like with a flash grenade) would be another. Ingesting salt (or just being bathed in salt water...in a world wide ocean...) will return the shadow to a person. Salt Water in general just destroys the Shadow. A Fishman with Fishman Karate is a serious threat as they can control water. As seen at the War at Marineford. The User of the fruit also has to be "Stronger" though the metric seems...strange...to actually control the Shadows in the first place.


honestly, Whitebeard was lucky to get his earthquake fruit and Blackbeard even luckier to get a fruit that steals one other fruits power.

The Gura Gura and Yami Yami no Mi are two of the three OP fruits. The other being the Opi Opi Fruit that Law has. Also, the Yami Yami no Mi doesn't steal another Fruit's power. That's something to do with Blackbeard, the say it in setting even. So ya know.

[QUOTE=Lord Raziere;23185689]the only person in One Piece that gets to say they got to the top without any BS is Gold Roger, because he became the Pirate King without eating any devil fruit. everyone including Luffy, will always be a pale shadow compared to that. thats the real reason why let himself be executed while letting everyone else have a go: because he knew that everyone else would seek a devil fruit to help do it instead and thus use a crutch.....and thus never outshine him.

That is so wrong I don't even know where to start. Other than Rodger having a Devil Fruit. We actually don't know one way or the other. No one seems to mention it so it's probably true. The rest though? Utter B.S.

Gol D. Rodger let himself be killed because he was already dying. He only conquered the Grand Line because of the illness in the first place and after he did it he knew his days were dwindling swiftly. He turned himself in and died so he could live on, immortal, in the minds and memories of Pirate Generations to come. Literally nothing you said about his motivation was true. You...you can't just make crap up.


I dunno about that.

Your ill-informed skepticism is noted.


Buggy's power doesn't seem all that great. the problem with saying that it all depends on the persons creativity and such, is that until the uses are actually shown, we can only assume what is shown is the full extent of their power. otherwise we end up with near-reality warping rules-lawyering and weird metaphorical/conceptual/figurative uses for a power. we have no word on applications of the power the Buggy COULD have but isn't achieving, so saying that is useless.

We don't have to assume when we're told that cowards and lazy people won't ever bring the full potential out of the fruit. Buggy already demonstrates some pretty crazy antics, he can remotely control every piece of his body. He doesn't even have to be cut up. He can just detach himself at will. That's crazy useful without going to your extreme slippery slope. Buggy has limited flight in a universe where a very select number can actually fly. That's huge.

Not to mention in a world where swords are used by pretty much everyone....he's immune to them. Guns are common sure but we've seen Buggy dodge them. Buggy was a member of Gol's crew for dear lord's sake. Buggy could be a power house. He isn't because he's a coward.


and a freaking giraffe still isn't equal to earthquakes or lightning.

It is if the person is more creative than the others. Rubber's not equal to lightning either but Luffy beat Enel on that basis alone.

[Celestia]

Some video game settings might qualify. In The Elder Scrolls, for example, it appears that, at least from Morrowind onwards, everyone has the potential to learn magic, and in Oblivion and Skyrim maximum potential - at least for player characters - is very similar regardless of starting race and birthsign. Another example might be Dungeon Siege, if you assume the player character to be typical of the average peasant in the setting.
Elder Scrolls doesn't really count when the players are all Shezzarine heroes of prophecy instead of regular folk, and those regular folk are often mercilessly butchered when a stray mudcrab wanders too close to town.



As for my own answer, I put forth the universe from El Goonish Shive. In that world, everyone on the planet is theoretically capable of learning magic after being exposed to it. This isn't 100%, though, as different people do seem to have different levels of potential, but it's still pretty close.

[Ibrinar]

But that isn't in universe. That's the author saying it. Like. Literal word of God.


And? That is not different from in setting statements the author makes some character say about the settings, they often are also meant to be the truth. For setting details and stuff author comments matter, for judging the setting as it is shown there is no reason not to apply death of the author.

[Razade]

And? That is not different from in setting statements the author makes some character say about the settings, they often are also meant to be the truth. For setting details and stuff author comments matter, for judging the setting as it is shown there is no reason not to apply death of the author.

When a character in a setting says it, it could be mistaken or misinformation or any number of things. When the author comes out and says they're just the strongest, we should at least consider it as more valid. They're the ones creating the fiction. If they then turn around and go "Oh but there was something even more powerful" you've got the right to laugh at them but there's no reason to just ignore the comments from a creator because "could be inaccurate".

[deuterio12]

Not to mention in a world where swords are used by pretty much everyone....he's immune to them. Guns are common sure but we've seen Buggy dodge them. Buggy was a member of Gol's crew for dear lord's sake. Buggy could be a power house. He isn't because he's a coward.

Usopp is the greatest coward of them all and also powerhouse enough to be one of Luffy select shipmates.

[Razade]

Usopp is the greatest coward of them all and also powerhouse enough to be one of Luffy select shipmates.

Franky, Chopper, Brook before the Time Skip and Nami are far weaker and still members of the team (and they're also pretty cowardly). The strongest people in the crew are...Sanji, Luffy and Zoro. The three least cowardly. Robin's also pretty strong and she kicked butt until she was kinda Worfed, hope to see her kick some serious butt and actually be the Assassin for a change in Wano. They're setting up for it. Usopp's also mostly got over the cowardly thing by Enis Lobby and he became Sogeking. That was actually a big part of his character growth in that arc. It's even less pronounced after the Time Skip. He proves the rule, not proves the contrary. Usopp was mostly useless until Enis Lobby and by Dressrosa he's one of the strongest outside of Sanji and Zoro.

But you know who is still a coward? Buggy. It's actually his greatest strength. Buggy is such a coward he conned some of the worst criminals in the world to join his crew and he became a Warlord of the Sea.

[deuterio12]

Except that after Enis Lobby we had Luffy and his bravest companions curbstomped by courage draining ghosts, only for Usopp to save the day because he has zero courage to drain and always fights out of pure cowardice and fear.

Before Enis Lobby he was the only party member with ranged worth a damn. And he actually was pretty deadly in ship combat, able to sink two ships with a single cannon ball.

It is his main stick, being the cowardly sniper who will shoot you from as far away as possible whenever possible. And up close he will use every dirty trick he can to even the odds.

[BeerMug Paladin]

If FMA counts as a superhero setting it is probably the most fair I'm familiar with. I got the impression the distinct differences between all the alchemists (or guest-users-of-magic) are more due to what techniques each individual one developed for use after becoming familiar with the underlying principles.

[The_Snark]

I was about to name Worm, until I thought about it more. It's still an interesting variation. Powers are gained by stress and trauma. Which means that in the developed world, most superheroes are accident survivors, abuse victims, survivors of accidents or violence or just mentally ill. And while the developing world is only tangentially mentioned, we're also told that wars only ever escalate upwards, just from the fact that refugees and child soldiers tend to gain powers.

But then I remembered that what I just wrote is not actually entirely true, but there would be massive spoilers.

I thought about Worm too, but spoilers aside, the powers people get in Worm vary wildly in quality - some people get mastery of life itself, others get an enhanced sense of balance - and there's not much you can do about it if you lose the metaphorical power lottery.


With the possible exception of Medivh, children don't inherit supernatural powers based on their lineage -- they acquire it as individuals. There are a lot of ways of accruing power - be they mystical or mundane - if you put the effort into them. The influential characters in the setting aren't exclusive to any specific power-set, if they have any superpowers to begin with.

That's true of the player races, but aren't there a lot of absurdly powerful gods/demons/dragons/all-of-the-aboves running around in the setting, too?

[Kitten Champion]

That's true of the player races, but aren't there a lot of absurdly powerful gods/demonds/dragons/all-of-the-aboves running around in the setting, too?


Yes, the Adventurers group up to kill the hell out 'em.

[Metahuman1]

One Piece isn't actually bad. There's a couple of powers that can't be just learned or acquired via money or training, but there not really major deciding factors in most situations.

Other things that should be an advantage like being super teeny and faster than the normal human eye can follow but strong as a full sized human who trains, or being a freaking giant, have a limited usefulness and frequently just become a liability instead, and most of the other major powers (Fishman Martial Arts, Rokushiki, Top Tier Sword Fighting, The 2 Forms of Haki that matter 99.9% of the time.) Are learnable.

And of course, Devil Fruits. Freaking Devil Fruits. Any chump can choose to roll the dice on it and either get a low tier power that can't do much, get a middle-end thing that can be extrapolated into an insane ability, or get a crazy power that is a veritable "I Win" button if applied competently.

[lord_khaine]

The Ushi Ushi no Mi: Giraffe Model was one of the biggest examples of how a Devil Fruit is never useless. The Fruit gives a massive physical strength boost, impressive reach which coupled with a strong fighter was shown to make them an equal to Zoro and we saw just how a strong opponent can turn a weakness (the long neck) into an actual bonus. That reach is in part because of that huge neck.

Dont forget the absurdly rubbery body it gave as well.

All in all i will say the OP universe is one of the most fair ones.
Yes there is one type of Haki thats limited by birth. But it also does the least. I would say both other types are more useful in general.

It does seem like for everyone else, if you can find a DF you can get a spin on the power lottery.
Yes. Some win, and some lose there. There is a difference in DF power. But its still fair, because anyone who can find a DF gets a roll on the random power list.
And if not that, there are evidence pointing towards that if you find a trainer, then anyone does hold the potential to become a badass anyway.

[Bohandas]

It might be a relative thing. Hm.

any world with the powers being secret to the public at large is automatically out: Bleach, Dresden Files, WoD, and so on.

Most superhero universes are out: DC, Marvel, MHA, One Piece, Naruto, Fairy Tail, and other such things

But in Fairy Tail people who don't have much in the way of magical strength or want a different power can have lacrimas implanted that make them just as strong as any other wizard; to the point where the main side effect of this seems to be a high chance of going mad with power. Or they can use magical objects.

Laxus and Mystogan were among the most powerful members of the guild and neither of them had any innate magical abilities

[Anonymouswizard]

And of course, Devil Fruits. Freaking Devil Fruits. Any chump can choose to roll the dice on it and either get a low tier power that can't do much, get a middle-end thing that can be extrapolated into an insane ability, or get a crazy power that is a veritable "I Win" button if applied competently.

Devil Fruits also make it impossible to swim, in a world which seems to be covered in water. Unless you live your entire life on one island (which most people probably do, but most people willing to get a Devil Fruit probably don't want to either) then you'd better hope you don't fall in the water or have a buddy on standby able to pull you out.

Devil Fruits are powerful, but compared to the powers achieved by training have a serious drawback. Of course you can always have a devil fruit and train to get aother power.


Dont forget the absurdly rubbery body it gave as well.

Some of the devil fruit powers do seem to be really weird, but the transformation ones do seem to have flexibility that most people (even most possessors) don't realise.


I think personally I have to give the award to cyberpunk/transhuman settings, where the main form of 'superpowers' are technology and organs that you get implanted. Because at that point the main thing that's unfair is resources, and unless we're in a post-scarcity uptopia or powers are inborn having the resources to afford the training or modifications for powers will always be a factor.

[137beth]

In Sister Claire (https://sisterclaire.com/), there are two types of magic. One of them (often called "witchcraft") is entirely genetic: you can do it if your parents can do it. The other type of magic ("nun-fu") is entirely learned: anyone can be taught to do it.

For most people in the Claireverse, it is possible to learn nun-fu and use it to do most of what witchcraft can do, making the world approximately fair for low and mid-powered people. However, this fairness brakes down at the high end of the power scale, since the most powerful witches can do stuff that is difficult or impossible to do with nun-fu. For example, there are only three people in the Claireverse who can reverse death in any way (as far as we know), and they are all part of one family. Also, some of the most powerful people in the Claireverse combine both types of magic, which is only possible if you were lucky enough to be born able to do the inherited type of magic.

So, Sister Claire is sort of fair at low and mid-levels, but not really for the people at the top.

[Lord Raziere]

But in Fairy Tail people who don't have much in the way of magical strength or want a different power can have lacrimas implanted that make them just as strong as any other wizard; to the point where the main side effect of this seems to be a high chance of going mad with power. Or they can use magical objects.

Laxus and Mystogan were among the most powerful members of the guild and neither of them had any innate magical abilities

oh right, I was thinking of the dragon slayers being arbitrarily chosen.

and I still disagree on One Piece. its unfair. those powers are NOT equal. no lottery power system is. I mean one of the fruit is literally "the HUMAN fruit" its only useful to Chopper because he is a DEER. if anyone else ate it, it'd be useless.

[lord_khaine]

Some of the devil fruit powers do seem to be really weird, but the transformation ones do seem to have flexibility that most people (even most possessors) don't realise.

That was meant as a + for the giraff fruit. It was played for laugh, but the power boost it provided were quite considerable.


and I still disagree on One Piece. its unfair. those powers are NOT equal. no lottery power system is. I mean one of the fruit is literally "the HUMAN fruit" its only useful to Chopper because he is a DEER. if anyone else ate it, it'd be useless.

It is fair for the purpose of this thread. Everyone has a equal chance of getting an awesome power if they eat a fruit. The outcome is the same for everyone. There isnt anyone who by birth got a +10 on the power roll or something.
Noone has claimed the powers are equal. Just that none of them are useless.
Even the human fruit isnt useless. Oda has stated that if a normal person had eaten it then they would have become enlightend or something like that.

[Flying Turtle]

I wouldn't argue One Piece is fair. Yes, Rob Lucci, Crocodile, and likely other characters have explicitly said that any fruit can make you stronger as long as you are clever with your usage. But saying all fruits can be helpful is not the same as saying they are all equally helpful. Lucci also said that Zoan type devil fruits are the best for combat because they make physical training more effective. Akainu's fight with Ace made it explicit that some fruits are just straight better than others.

Yes, with a creative strategy someone like Alvida could make their fruit as useful as Kizaru's. With creativity Ace could certainly have made his fruit more effective than Akainu's. But the fact that they have to think creatively to break even is a sign that they are not starting from even footing.

Of course all this is moot because Devil Fruit are very rare and the vast majority of people don't have the acces to them. Even if they weren't rare unless there are millions/billions of devil fruits there aren't enough for everyone to have one.

Then there are of course all the different races, like giants, fishmen, merfolk, mink, etc. Many of who are born with superhuman abilities.

Back to the original question, I think History's Strongest Disciple/Kenichi:The Mightiest Disciple is pretty fair. Anyone can learn any technique through training and while some character put a premium on natural talent the protagonist's masters, not to mention the plot itself, don't seem to give it much credence. You don't even need to find a master. Just do what Kisara and Siegfried did and search for inspiration to make your own style. Not that the world seems to have a shortage of masters in the first place. Tsuji (Mophead) went into the woods to punch trees and found his master.

[Rater202]

Oda's comments on a creature eating its own species Zoan (The ones that give you animal powers and the ability to turn into an animal) is that a species eating its own fruit becomes a perfect and enlightened example of their species.

A Human eating the Human Human Fruit would become PEak Human and also reach an enlightened state of consciousness automatically--and Peak Human in the One Piece world would be absolutely ridiculous.

I've actually got a One Piece OC Idea I'd like to roleplay with if I ever get the chance based loosely on the Idea: A Fishman who was enslaved to a World Noble and, like a couple o people, forced to eat a Devil's Fruit for his/her(never decided) master's amusement. It coincidentally happened to be the Fishman Fishman fruit, making them the ultimate Fishman at the cost of their ability to swim.

They've since escaped slavery and turned to a life of Piracy with the ultimate goal of toppling the world government because despite being free now they can never go home and they are pissed about it.

[Lord Raziere]

Oda's comments on a creature eating its own species Zoan (The ones that give you animal powers and the ability to turn into an animal) is that a species eating its own fruit becomes a perfect and enlightened example of their species.

A Human eating the Human Human Fruit would become PEak Human and also reach an enlightened state of consciousness automatically--and Peak Human in the One Piece world would be absolutely ridiculous.

I've actually got a One Piece OC Idea I'd like to roleplay with if I ever get the chance based loosely on the Idea: A Fishman who was enslaved to a World Noble and, like a couple o people, forced to eat a Devil's Fruit for his/her(never decided) master's amusement. It coincidentally happened to be the Fishman Fishman fruit, making them the ultimate Fishman at the cost of their ability to swim.

They've since escaped slavery and turned to a life of Piracy with the ultimate goal of toppling the world government because despite being free now they can never go home and they are pissed about it.

But.....they're the ultimate fishman. wouldn't that by DEFINITION have the ability to swim? your not much of a merfolk if you can't swim, so all it would do is make your fishman unable to swim, unless it paradoxically makes you able to swim in addition to being "peak fishman." so either way it would just be either screwing the system of devil fruits over or screwing themselves over.

[Forum Explorer]

As for my own answer, I put forth the universe from El Goonish Shive. In that world, everyone on the planet is theoretically capable of learning magic after being exposed to it. This isn't 100%, though, as different people do seem to have different levels of potential, but it's still pretty close.

Yeah, El Goonish Shive is a good one.


But for mine, I'm going to say the Bioshock universe. Powers are sold from a vending machine, anyone can get them, and they aren't even that expensive. And they are all the same bunch.

[Rater202]

Devil's fruit is short for "The Fruit of the Sea Devil."

Devil's fruit users are paralyzed when submerged in water because they've been cursed by the Sea Devil.

The Ultimate Fishman would have the innate ability to swim as good as any Fisham could... If only the curse wouldn't paralyze them.

Besides, by my reading "Ultimate Fishman" would be "The Attributes of a Fishman as high as they get" and maybe "changing what kind of sea creature you correspond to at will" depending on if differant kinds of fishmen would be differant models.

Basically, they'd be the Captain America of Fishmen in terms of physical abillity.

[Razade]

But.....they're the ultimate fishman. wouldn't that by DEFINITION have the ability to swim? your not much of a merfolk if you can't swim, so all it would do is make your fishman unable to swim, unless it paradoxically makes you able to swim in addition to being "peak fishman." so either way it would just be either screwing the system of devil fruits over or screwing themselves over.

No. Devil Fruit are powerless to the sea. It's not a paradox.

[Traab]

The one piece universe has two sets of powers. One, the various hakis, can be combined with skills any person with sufficient drive and will can learn to become powerful. Garp is a great example of this. This dude is world famous for fighting absurdly strong opponents, even the pirate king himself and standing toe to toe with the most broken devil fruits and winning, because he is that hardcore strong and tough and skilled. The best part is, that haki you can learn allows you to bypass devil fruit powers. That includes people like luffy and his rubber body, and even those who can turn into the elements like the admirals.

Devil fruits are of course the second set of powers. They too can be absurdly overpowered. I think the main thing is, they provide an early power boost over other normal folk that can only be surmounted by crazy training. Just look at luffy and zorro for the best combination. There is a REASON zorro is his first mate. He doest need a devil fruit to be mountain destroyingly powerful. If they seriously fought to the death, I honestly question who would win. Right now luffy holds a serious edge but thats just because this entire massive arc was all about him and showing off his improving abilities. I cant wait to see wano and get a chance for zorro to show more of his stuff.

So while there are powers not everyone can have, there arent any that are insurmountable to beat with enough hard work and training that grants you all sorts of super powers. Super speed, strength, durability, flight (sorta) wind blades, the liist goes on.

[Lord Raziere]

So.....not the ultimate fishman. because they can't swim regardless.

meaning it does nothing but generic self-enhancement powers. seems like it'd be better to just work for it.

but yeah, I don't believe people when they One Piece is fair. I mean there are GIANTS there, thats not fair at all.

[Traab]

So.....not the ultimate fishman. because they can't swim regardless.

meaning it does nothing but generic self-enhancement powers. seems like it'd be better to just work for it.

but yeah, I don't believe people when they One Piece is fair. I mean there are GIANTS there, thats not fair at all.

Bah, clearly giants arent all that, they barely manage to rule elbaf and nothing else. Pre timeskip luffy one shot a giant at marineford. Giants are just huge targets that dodge slow.

[deuterio12]

Back to the original question, I think History's Strongest Disciple/Kenichi:The Mightiest Disciple is pretty fair. Anyone can learn any technique through training and while some character put a premium on natural talent the protagonist's masters, not to mention the plot itself, don't seem to give it much credence.

On the contrary:
1) Kenichi's masters put a premium on talent, just that they're all too much of loonies and prone to go overboard for any talented person to stick with them for any significant amount of time. Kenichi is more of their hobby/guinea pig in that he won't (can't?) escape.
2) Kenichi needs several best-of-the-world masters to keep up with talented people do with a single lesser master. And good luck finding several masters desperate enough to share training for a single disciple.

[Rater202]

Anyway, I'll reiterate that in my opinion, Marvel's the fairest in the sense that almost everyone, by statistics, is born with either powers or the potential to get them and forthose that don't have it innately it's still possible to get powers.

I don't think there's any setting where everybody has the exact same powers at the exact same power level or at least the exact same potential power, just as no two human beings will get the exact same results from even identical diet and excercise regimens.

With Marvel whether your powers are good or even useful is a crapshoot, but between the various Super Serums, Mutants, Inhuman Ancestry, and the various kinds of mutates it seems that just about anyone has the chance to actually get them and statistically the odds for everyone but the mutants is good.

[Mechalich]

Ultimately superpowers are inherently unfair - that's the entire point. The powered have abilities the masses do not have and therefore have a greater ability to impact the world than they would otherwise. This has clear storytelling utility - which is why its a major feature of the very first stories we have access to and has never gone out of style - but it is dependent upon being unfair. There are clear boundaries on how good one human can be compared to the average, and while those differences may be quite large, they impose limits unless a storyteller chooses to alter capability variances to bypass them.

As a result, the only way to have a superpower universe that is 'fair' is to have the powers be ultimately irrelevant - because something else surpasses them. This is most commonly technology. The development of firearms, for example, did a real number of wuxia style superheroes - which certain universes like Kenshin have at least been willing to acknowledge on the margins. At even higher technological levels the very concept of superpowers becomes largely irrelevant, since it's just different forms of technology that you've deployed onto your person. For example, if you dropped the average Marvel hero into the Culture universe, their powers would be utterly meaningless.

[Some Android]

I'm watching Dr. Strange and I'm wondering how difficult is it to learn magic in the Marvel Universe? A man with broken hands seemed to master it.

[Rater202]

I'm watching Dr. Strange and I'm wondering how difficult is it to learn magic in the Marvel Universe? A man with broken hands seemed to master it.

In the main comics: It depends on what kind of magic you're using, if you've got an object to focus your power, your bloodline, and if you've undergone any procedures to increase your magical power.

No two magic users are quite the same.

Also, Doctor Strange is the Sorcerer Supreme: In addition to being potentially the most powerful Magic user on Earth, there are a couple of perks that come with the position.

In the remain comics, the most powerful MAgic users tend to contract with spirits--Most of Doctor Strange's Spells are him beseeching Cosmic Entities, Deities, and Eldritch Beings for a favor by performing gestures that are pleasing o them--or have some inherent advantage--The Scarlet Witch has the essence of the God Cthon infused in her soul, allowing her to easily work Cthonic Chaos Magic. She also has the Mutant Power to control probability, which means that she has much, much greater control of the "chaotic" aspects of Chaos Magic.

Nico from the Runaways not only comes from a long line of Sorcerers, she has a living Magic Staff that can tap her power to cast any spell once. The stronger she gets, the more fast and loose she gets with that limitation with the implication that if she gets strong enough she'd slip the limitation entirely. Doracan'tspellhisname, Strange's Enemy, is afraid of the Staff of One.

Theoretically, anyone can do it, but only "I'm a mutant" and "I got mothervined" are bigger crapshoots in the Super-Power Lottery. It's either gonna be a long time before you get good or you've gotta have a couple of advantages.

[Aeson]

Elder Scrolls doesn't really count when the players are all Shezzarine heroes of prophecy instead of regular folk, and those regular folk are often mercilessly butchered when a stray mudcrab wanders too close to town.
One, being a prophesied hero doesn't actually do anything for your character, unless you count "can reload previous saves at will" as an in-universe ability.

Two, 'normal' people falling so far short of maximum ability that they die to enemy monsters that barely count as speedbumps to the player-character has nothing to do with whether or not the setting is fair. The setting is fair if anyone and everyone can become 'super,' not if everyone is 'super,' and in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim there exist characters (the master trainers) who are about as good as the player character at one thing and nearly as good as the player character will ever be at at least two more skills.

Three, the level-scaling mechanics of Oblivion and, to a lesser extent, Skyrim, if taken as a literal reflection of how things are in the game-universe, suggest that the player-character is not actually becoming more powerful within the game-universe despite the significant numerical differences between, say, the damage output of a level one and a level fifty character. If it still takes five hits from my character's sword to kill a bandit or something like that whether the rated damage from my attack is 5 or 500 and still dies in two or three hits despite having a thousand HP instead of 100, my character hasn't actually become any more powerful relative to the world. (Note: I am making up numbers here. I do not care that these numbers are not completely accurate reflections of values attainable within the games.)

Four, while the player-characters potentially have greater breadth of ability than most, or perhaps all, other characters within the setting, breadth of ability is often not all that useful, and mastering more than maybe three or four different skills probably isn't useful, ignoring equipment/consumable crafting issues, because it doesn't actually change what the character can do or how they can do it to any significant degree.

[Rater202]

One, being a prophesied hero doesn't actually do anything for your character, unless you count "can reload previous saves at will" as an in-universe ability.

It might be, figuring out how to edit the source code is(CHIM, a power in Lore that's basically the highest of the God Tier powers, is pretty clearly just hacking the source code, albeit dressed up in terms that someone who ins't aware that their relatiy is the setting of a videogame wpuld understand.)

[Bohandas]

One, being a prophesied hero doesn't actually do anything for your character, unless you count "can reload previous saves at will" as an in-universe ability.

Two, 'normal' people falling so far short of maximum ability that they die to enemy monsters that barely count as speedbumps to the player-character has nothing to do with whether or not the setting is fair. The setting is fair if anyone and everyone can become 'super,' not if everyone is 'super,' and in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim there exist characters (the master trainers) who are about as good as the player character at one thing and nearly as good as the player character will ever be at at least two more skills.

Three, the level-scaling mechanics of Oblivion and, to a lesser extent, Skyrim, if taken as a literal reflection of how things are in the game-universe, suggest that the player-character is not actually becoming more powerful within the game-universe despite the significant numerical differences between, say, the damage output of a level one and a level fifty character. If it still takes five hits from my character's sword to kill a bandit or something like that whether the rated damage from my attack is 5 or 500 and still dies in two or three hits despite having a thousand HP instead of 100, my character hasn't actually become any more powerful relative to the world. (Note: I am making up numbers here. I do not care that these numbers are not completely accurate reflections of values attainable within the games.)

Four, while the player-characters potentially have greater breadth of ability than most, or perhaps all, other characters within the setting, breadth of ability is often not all that useful, and mastering more than maybe three or four different skills probably isn't useful, ignoring equipment/consumable crafting issues, because it doesn't actually change what the character can do or how they can do it to any significant degree.

Yeah, but the player character in skrim has a semi-unique magical power to steal dragons' souls which is shared only by a handful of ancient kings and the boss from one of the DLCs. This ability also allows them to master dragonshouts to an extent nearly impossible for anybody else. This second factor is part of a general pattern of the protagonist leading a generally charmed life after their destiny comes into play, rising almost instantly to the top of any field they enter (the thieves' guild, the mages' school, etc)

[Celestia]

One, being a prophesied hero doesn't actually do anything for your character, unless you count "can reload previous saves at will" as an in-universe ability.
In fact, it does, and it's called CHIM. Being able to save and reload is a great advantage to someone who fights monsters for a living, as is the ability to use the command console or the construction tools. It is literally reality manipulation.


Two, 'normal' people falling so far short of maximum ability that they die to enemy monsters that barely count as speedbumps to the player-character has nothing to do with whether or not the setting is fair. The setting is fair if anyone and everyone can become 'super,' not if everyone is 'super,' and in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim there exist characters (the master trainers) who are about as good as the player character at one thing and nearly as good as the player character will ever be at at least two more skills.
That is a good point, but there is still a distinct difference between Shezzarines born of the soul of the Missing God and regular mortal people.


Three, the level-scaling mechanics of Oblivion and, to a lesser extent, Skyrim, if taken as a literal reflection of how things are in the game-universe, suggest that the player-character is not actually becoming more powerful within the game-universe despite the significant numerical differences between, say, the damage output of a level one and a level fifty character. If it still takes five hits from my character's sword to kill a bandit or something like that whether the rated damage from my attack is 5 or 500 and still dies in two or three hits despite having a thousand HP instead of 100, my character hasn't actually become any more powerful relative to the world. (Note: I am making up numbers here. I do not care that these numbers are not completely accurate reflections of values attainable within the games.
Except it does still matter because you're not actually fighting the same enemies. You, as a player, may not feel like you're getting stronger, but that's just because your enemies are stronger, too. You're not fighting ghosts and wolves anymore, you're fighting gloom wraiths and minotaur lords.


Four, while the player-characters potentially have greater breadth of ability than most, or perhaps all, other characters within the setting, breadth of ability is often not all that useful, and mastering more than maybe three or four different skills probably isn't useful, ignoring equipment/consumable crafting issues, because it doesn't actually change what the character can do or how they can do it to any significant degree.
What? Of course mastering more skills affects what you can do. If I have a character skilled in heavy armor, swords, and shields, I'm good at not dying and hitting things with swords. If I then train up destruction, I can now blast things with fire in addition to everything else. I am, thus, stronger. Also, training that extra skill gave me more experience and increased my level, boosting up my numbers as well as my versatility. Since Morrowind, the Elder Scrolls leveling system has been all about becoming a master at everything.

[Zalabim]

Well, I love World Trigger. So how fair is World Trigger's world? The primary superpower 'stuff' is Trion and Trigger technology relies on trion energy, which for simplicity sake I'll say is Chi or Nen as a raw energy that comes from people. Different people do have different inborn levels of 'the stuff', but that can be modified and improved by training (while still young) and technology (that is still in its fledging and dangerous stages). Provided there's a source of trion, anyone can use the tech that relies on it, though handheld triggers are the most common and those do rely on the user's own trion. The tech itself is carefully guarded at the moment. On Earth, that's done by Border, which carefully selects new agents based on their potential. But also let in Osamu, who did not have enough potential to pass their entry exam. Osamu is probably the weakest agent in border, but not the worst agent, so that's a good sign. The setting's conflicts are hardly ever resolved by pure power.

The biggest game-breakers are black triggers, a single specialized trigger made by one sufficiently powerful person sacrificing their whole life, as each of these has unique abilities, provides a great deal of its own trion supply, and can be temperamental as to who is allowed to use it. The risk of the losing side making black triggers usually means wars between trion-using powers are less bloody, all-out slaughters. As a comeback mechanic, black triggers make wars in World Trigger a little more fair, a bit like the MAD of nuclear weapons. On a personal level, they're unfair as all get-out.

The most really unfair things in World Trigger are called Side Effects. These are enhanced 'senses' or other 'natural' abilities that people with a large amount of natural trion sometimes have. No one demonstrates this quite as well as Jin, the self-proclaimed Elite Agent, who has the side effect of foresight. He can see the future of anyone he sees. And even Jin isn't unbeatable or infallible, because it does only work on people he has seen, and the future is always shifting. Sometimes it seems he can see how different choices will play out, but not which choices will be made. I'd personally compare it to the Dark Matter show's prophets, as a kind of enhanced intuition. Other side effects have been enhanced hearing, rapid learning, an ability to feel emotions directed at the person, the ability to see auras that are basically power levels, and perfect parallel processing. A veritable lottery, and not everyone gets an entry, but all minor powers.

So it's not perfectly fair by any means, but it still puts forth a protagonist that many people call too weak as being an important person for other reasons. No one is shy about calling him weak as a combatant, but his strength of character seems to shake up the setting all the same, and probably explains why he was allowed in Border at all. That, at least, is pretty damn fair.

[khadgar567]

most fair universe would be funnily either pokemon or my little pony universes as every one from puberty or some age has power or mons to do their jobs.

[deuterio12]

most fair universe would be funnily either pokemon or my little pony universes as every one from puberty or some age has power or mons to do their jobs.

Even pre-schoolers are challenging you to pokemon battles so seems like the age is "old enough to walk and talk".

[Chromascope3D]

most fair universe would be funnily either pokemon or my little pony universes as every one from puberty or some age has power or mons to do their jobs.

Not for the Pokemon themselves, however. :p

[Celestia]

Even pre-schoolers are challenging you to pokemon battles so seems like the age is "old enough to walk and talk".
Black and White 2 even had preschoolers that were stronger than the Elite Four. :smallbiggrin:

[Reddish Mage]

So, which universe with superpowers(whether it's magic, psi-powers, futuristic technology, ki/chakra or mutants) gives everyone a relatively equal chance at getting superpowers. That means:

-No races or families, that make some people much more powerful than others.
-The means to get superpowers must be publicly aviable and not be a secret, that only a few know about.
-Everyone can learn the same stuff. Something, where everyone has powers, but every has totally different superpowers like MHA is nice for individuality, but not so much for equality.

I think, the closest example I can think of, is FMA.


None of the above. I have some obscure candidates though

Honestly, these conditions for “fairness” are essentially run against the grain in fiction about what superpowers are and what they do for people.

1everyone having an equal chance to get the power and not by blood (no race or families). I would say it leaves out Super-Sciency universes (Big Hero 6 and FMA) because not everyone is equally smart, you need to be extremely talented. We also see that the smarts run in families just by looking at the main protagonists!

Powers need to be completely random, like a lottery, to meet this requirement. Or simply everyone has them.

At this point any universe that EVERYONE has powers work. However, even most sci-if has trouble if access to prosthetics and enhancement has any inequality (and they all do)

2 must be publicly available. This leaves out basically most of the genre very obviously. Also even universes where powers are known SOME powers are always secret.

Again we are left with lotteries and places where everyone has something...but now they EVERYONE has to know about what everyone gets

3. Everyone has access to the same Seriously. What are these requirements about?

Now this requires everyone with powers to get access to THE SAME POWERS. Any exceptions (Eexceptions are what the genre is about!) is unfair of course.

So we are left with our first of all stories that are not about superheroes or any of the derived genres. No shounen, no action hero films, no gag cartoon.

You want total equal opportunity, total public transparency, and (here is a real problem). totally equal powers.

So we have a handful of obscure stories.

Power Lottery stories almost always have some variation in what powers are presented and even if it’s just one power randomly shuffling around it’s secret.

I got nothing for equal opportunity powers. Again I don’t think science-y powers are equal because brains and talent inevitably have something to do with blood, family and privaledge.

I really got left is Universe is where everyone has the same power. Some obscure sci-fi stories set in worlds of alien and fantasy races come to mind (and I can’t remember the names).

Finally, there is internet MMO stories. No not stories about the world of the MMO but...SOME stories about MMO players themselves. Everyone gets to pick who their character is and thereby what powers the character will have access to.

Except when you scratch the surface of the every good MMO anime and movie...it’s not going to work. Ready player one shows that having money power in the real world can translate into more resources in the virtual one. .Hack and sword art online and their ilk nearly always have special hidden powers sprinkled in the MMO world. And finally the talent of the MMO players themselves is not equal.

But there’s that story Asimov wrote with the weird aliens... oh wait the alien protagonist was a genius working with machines....ok I got nothing.

[Fyraltari]

About the Elder Scrolls:
I might be wrong, but I think it's canon that the Imperial Agent (the PC of Daggerfall) is not a Shezzarine and doesn't have any prophecies about them. So that's one more example of a "normal" character ending up OP. However the agent cannot use the Mantella and trying kill them so there's still some unfairness?

In the end though I think it's clear that on Tamriel training and experiencing trumps inborn skills eventually. The Dragonborns may be able to wear the Amulet of Kings and learn the Thu'um faster but the first isn't that useful and the second only works when there are Dragons around (and even then it still possible for a non-Dragonborn like Vahlok to beat a Drogonborn like Miraak).

[Kitten Champion]

Upon reflection, the Pokemon universe has humans with superpowers themselves. Both in the anime and games there are plenty of psychics about and people with certain spiritual powers like the ability to "speak" with Pokemon. Then you have Mega-Evolutions, which are fairly restrictive both in the stones that produce the effect and the actual Pokemon which can undergo it. Even rarer are.... whatever you want to call that pseudo-evolution Ash could do with his Greninja.

Then you have trainers like that guy who had a Latias and a Darkrai or the one who had the Legendary Golems which, the second you get these one-of-kind Pokemon (or close enough) you've moved outside the standards of what a Trainer can achieve.

Plus, you get guys like Giovanni which have enormous resources to have overwhelming advantages over mere children. Such as genetically modifying/cloning/adding cybernetics to existing and extinct Pokemon to make them near-unparalleled in power, or developing and employing super-technology like flying fortresses, weather modification, continent-busting WMDs, and more.

Hell, just Master Balls alone create massive power disparities between have and have nots.

[Chromascope3D]

None of the above. I have some obscure candidates though

Honestly, these conditions for “fairness” are essentially run against the grain in fiction about what superpowers are and what they do for people.

1everyone having an equal chance to get the power and not by blood (no race or families). I would say it leaves out Super-Sciency universes (Big Hero 6 and FMA) because not everyone is equally smart, you need to be extremely talented. We also see that the smarts run in families just by looking at the main protagonists!

Powers need to be completely random, like a lottery, to meet this requirement. Or simply everyone has them.

At this point any universe that EVERYONE has powers work. However, even most sci-if has trouble if access to prosthetics and enhancement has any inequality (and they all do)

2 must be publicly available. This leaves out basically most of the genre very obviously. Also even universes where powers are known SOME powers are always secret.

Again we are left with lotteries and places where everyone has something...but now they EVERYONE has to know about what everyone gets

3. Everyone has access to the same Seriously. What are these requirements about?

Now this requires everyone with powers to get access to THE SAME POWERS. Any exceptions (Eexceptions are what the genre is about!) is unfair of course.

So we are left with our first of all stories that are not about superheroes or any of the derived genres. No shounen, no action hero films, no gag cartoon.

You want total equal opportunity, total public transparency, and (here is a real problem). totally equal powers.

So we have a handful of obscure stories.

Power Lottery stories almost always have some variation in what powers are presented and even if it’s just one power randomly shuffling around it’s secret.

I got nothing for equal opportunity powers. Again I don’t think science-y powers are equal because brains and talent inevitably have something to do with blood, family and privaledge.

I really got left is Universe is where everyone has the same power. Some obscure sci-fi stories set in worlds of alien and fantasy races come to mind (and I can’t remember the names).

Finally, there is internet MMO stories. No not stories about the world of the MMO but...SOME stories about MMO players themselves. Everyone gets to pick who their character is and thereby what powers the character will have access to.

Except when you scratch the surface of the every good MMO anime and movie...it’s not going to work. Ready player one shows that having money power in the real world can translate into more resources in the virtual one. .Hack and sword art online and their ilk nearly always have special hidden powers sprinkled in the MMO world. And finally the talent of the MMO players themselves is not equal.

But there’s that story Asimov wrote with the weird aliens... oh wait the alien protagonist was a genius working with machines....ok I got nothing.

I'm telling y'all it's gotta be HxH. While combat nen is kept secret by the Hunter's Association (and very poorly, since a lot of people manage to learn it without getting their Hunter's License), literally anyone dedicated to learning a skill can unconsciously develop Nen that will make them supernaturally better at performing that skill.

You wanna become a counterfeiter? Work at it enough and you'll not only be able to create fakes good enough to fool their creators, but be able to recognize fakes just by a glance. Unless, of course, that object was also created with Nen, but something nice about the system is that anyone who uses nen is that they can recognize anything made with it, even if they don't know what it is specifically. There's literally a character who wanted to grow up to become a fortuneteller, so over time she developed actual divination powers, without even knowing how or why it happened. And if that's not fair then i dunno what is.

[Flying Turtle]

On the contrary:
1) Kenichi's masters put a premium on talent, just that they're all too much of loonies and prone to go overboard for any talented person to stick with them for any significant amount of time. Kenichi is more of their hobby/guinea pig in that he won't (can't?) escape.
2) Kenichi needs several best-of-the-world masters to keep up with talented people do with a single lesser master. And good luck finding several masters desperate enough to share training for a single disciple.

On the concurrance:
1) The master don't put a premium on talent. On the subject of talent they say something along the lines of:
As a child you're a genius, as a teenager you're a prodigy, and as a adult you're just a regular person.

Talent is a head start to be sure but one that is easily overcome as evidence by your own second point.

2) Kenichi does not need several of the best masters of the world to keep up with talented people with a single lesser master. He needs several masters to surpass in a matter of months extremely talented people who have been trained since childhood by at least one master equal to Kenichi's. Kenichi surpasses people with significantly more talent, more training, more real world experience, and better breeding. Heck, Sho Kano had all that and he had more masters than Kenichi as he was trained by every master of the One Shadow Nine Fists. Kenichi's only advantage was that he worked harder. And that alone was enough to make up for all the other stuff.

I'd like to draw particular attention to the fact that he did all this in maybe a year and a half. It wasn't just talent that was stacked against him, it was time. This is a universe were anyone can turn their life around at any point as long as they are willing to put in the effort necessary. You could certainly argue whether or not this is fair but if nothing else that's insanely forgiving.

[Lord Raziere]

Upon reflection, the Pokemon universe has humans with superpowers themselves. Both in the anime and games there are plenty of psychics about and people with certain spiritual powers like the ability to "speak" with Pokemon. Then you have Mega-Evolutions, which are fairly restrictive both in the stones that produce the effect and the actual Pokemon which can undergo it. Even rarer are.... whatever you want to call that pseudo-evolution Ash could do with his Greninja.

Then you have trainers like that guy who had a Latias and a Darkrai or the one who had the Legendary Golems which, the second you get these one-of-kind Pokemon (or close enough) you've moved outside the standards of what a Trainer can achieve.

Plus, you get guys like Giovanni which have enormous resources to have overwhelming advantages over mere children. Such as genetically modifying/cloning/adding cybernetics to existing and extinct Pokemon to make them near-unparalleled in power, or developing and employing super-technology like flying fortresses, weather modification, continent-busting WMDs, and more.

Hell, just Master Balls alone create massive power disparities between have and have nots.

Yeah but those psychics and pokemon speakers are incredibly rare and and don't have much impac ton pokemon battling- Ash has beaten people with these advantages and he is ASH, kind of a loser compared to the many far better trainers than him.

and guess what: the trainer who had those legendaries? never became Champion. he beat Ash yes, but in a later episode we see Cynthia still being the champion of Sinnoh- which means she either beat the guy, or one of the Elite Four beat him, despite his legendaries. so, that at the very least means Elite four and the Champions are people capable of taking on legendaries.

as for Giovanni and those guys well....they keep getting their ass kicked by 10 year olds despite their so-called overwhelming advantage. so. I don't think its unfair in their favor.

and Master Balls, ok yeah, but there is only seven of those in existence if we're being strict with game canon. and they're always prototypes, so they must be incredibly expensive to make, and they don't really seem to have any impact upon the world at large. the only time in the anime we see one being used is a stupid fisherman using it on a Whiscash- and it FAILING. because the Whiscash ATE IT. even though in a later episode of the same region, a munchlax EATS A REGULAR POKEBALL and gets CAUGHT because of it! So. Theres that infuriating nonsense.

[Celestia]

and guess what: the trainer who had those legendaries? never became Champion. he beat Ash yes, but in a later episode we see Cynthia still being the champion of Sinnoh- which means she either beat the guy, or one of the Elite Four beat him, despite his legendaries. so, that at the very least means Elite four and the Champions are people capable of taking on legendaries.
Legendaries aren't even that unbalanced, anyways. Sure, they've got better stats and, often, better moves, but they fall to the type chart just as easily as anything else, especially in the games. Defeating legendaries is so easy that I've accidentally done it countless times while attempting to catch them.

[Ibrinar]

Anyway, I'll reiterate that in my opinion, Marvel's the fairest in the sense that almost everyone, by statistics, is born with either powers or the potential to get them and forthose that don't have it innately it's still possible to get powers.

I don't think there's any setting where everybody has the exact same powers at the exact same power level or at least the exact same potential power, just as no two human beings will get the exact same results from even identical diet and excercise regimens.

With Marvel whether your powers are good or even useful is a crapshoot, but between the various Super Serums, Mutants, Inhuman Ancestry, and the various kinds of mutates it seems that just about anyone has the chance to actually get them and statistically the odds for everyone but the mutants is good.

There are some setting where magic is entirely about understanding and people not even have inbuilt superior power pools, I just can't remember one at the moment (because honestly that is just world building and for the story it just matters who has mastered magic and thus it is not what is memorable about a setting). Of course differences in intelligence still matter.

[Lord Raziere]

Legendaries aren't even that unbalanced, anyways. Sure, they've got better stats and, often, better moves, but they fall to the type chart just as easily as anything else, especially in the games. Defeating legendaries is so easy that I've accidentally done it countless times while attempting to catch them.

case in point: Articuno is PU. the lowest tier of pokemon possible. as in, "peeyew, it stinks" because it is Ice/Flying.

why is this so bad? because both types are weak to rock, so its x4 weak to rock.

meaning you can defeat a legendary, by just going up to it and throwing a rock at it, because that rock will probably take out Articuno in one hit. ARTICUNO! THE LEGENDARY BIRD! CONTROLS THE CLIMATE! EASY DEFEATED BY ROCK TO THE FACE!

[Foeofthelance]

I'd actually argue that the Dresden Files are a particularly fair universe. For one, the supernatural isn't a secret. While the majority of the world is in denial of one form or another, Harry advertises in the phone book, they try to sell him on eBay at one point, and several people mention looking him up on the internet via the forums run by the Paranet. And while not everyone is necessarily in the same category, the regular mortals don't simply get left in the dust. Bigfoot is sleeping with archaeologists, rogue FBI agents are arming themselves with belts that turn themselves into werewolves, and a sufficiently well armed human is capable of at least fighting off most mook-level creatures, to the point where a fairly common gangster managed to become a member of the equivalent of the Supernatural UN. Its mostly a matter of willingness to participate.

[Rater202]

Of course, there's Gameplay and Story Segregation in effect.

The Legendary Pokemon are basically the Living Gods of this World, sometimes literally... But game balance makes them weaker in gameplay than they are in Lore becuase you've got to at least pretend that the kids can Catch'em All.

Also, in uh one of the games, the one with uh... What's it's named, it's the Apex Predator Bug/Steel Fossil Pokemon that got turned into a Cyborg and given a giant canon. I think a point was made that the people who made it didn't keep it in a Pokeball becuase Pokeballs have a saty measure where a Powerful Enough Pokemon will have a portion of it's power sealed so that somoene can't trap Palkia and Dialgia in their pockets and take over the world.

[Aeson]

What? Of course mastering more skills affects what you can do. If I have a character skilled in heavy armor, swords, and shields, I'm good at not dying and hitting things with swords. If I then train up destruction, I can now blast things with fire in addition to everything else. I am, thus, stronger.
Versatility is only a strength if it gives you an advantage that you would not otherwise have. There are a limited number of capabilities you might want to have - single-target and AoE damage, crowd control, close-quarters and at-range combat options, et cetera. Once you have a way to do them, though, adding new ways to do the same thing doesn't increase your "strength" unless it does so with greater efficiency or gives you a way to exploit a vulnerability that you would otherwise be unable to target.

To take your example and develop it in the context of Morrowind, okay, you have Long Blade 100 + Heavy Armor 100 character. Adding Destruction 100 gives you elemental damage, which you could already have on your melee attacks with an appropriate weapon enchantment; AoE damage, which you could already have on your melee attacks with an appropriate weapon enchantment; a degree of crowd control ability through attribute damage, which you could already have on your melee attacks with an appropriate weapon enchantment; and ranged attacks. Okay, fine, adding Destruction increased your "strength" - it gave you a ranged attack, an ability you did not have before. Now, will adding Marksman 100 do anything for you? Not really - Destruction does all the same things that Marksman does, as long as you have magicka available, and carrying ammunition and a bow reduces the number of Restore/Fortify Magicka potions you can theoretically carry.


Since Morrowind, the Elder Scrolls leveling system has been all about becoming a master at everything.
Oblivion, maybe, at least until you master your combat-relevant skills, at which point it becomes a bad idea to continue leveling up, because level-scaling is screwy in that game and starts to punish you for continuing to level up once your combat-relevant skills are maxed or for failing to increase your combat-relevant skills sufficiently while leveling up. Skyrim, maybe, but I don't see a real advantage in mastering both one-handed and two-handed weapons or something like that. Morrowind can be played that way if you want and you'll almost never run into a scenario where you're mechanically penalized for having done so (aside from one fight in Tribunal), but it's neither necessary nor, in my opinion, particularly interesting to master five melee weapon and four armor skills on the same character or something like that. Nor, for that matter, is doing so particularly rewarding in terms of the character's "strength" - mix'n'match armor might be slightly superior to the best all-heavy or all-light set, but not by a whole lot, and you only need to max one melee weapon skill.


In fact, it does, and it's called CHIM. Being able to save and reload is a great advantage to someone who fights monsters for a living, as is the ability to use the command console or the construction tools. It is literally reality manipulation.
The basis for at-will save and reload being an in-universe power called CHIM is a specific interpretation of The 36 Lessons of Vivec, a series of books in Morrowind which read like a load of nonsense, and some other stuff Kirkbride wrote which never shows up anywhere in the games. You'll have to excuse me for disagreeing with you on the canonicity of CHIM as an in-universe power of the player-characters of each of the games.


Except it does still matter because you're not actually fighting the same enemies. You, as a player, may not feel like you're getting stronger, but that's just because your enemies are stronger, too. You're not fighting ghosts and wolves anymore, you're fighting gloom wraiths and minotaur lords.
This is a problem of level-scaling systems, particularly if taken at face value - they make the setting appear to be player-character-centric. For a sandbox game, this is maybe appealing because it means that a player-character can more or less go anywhere at any level while fighting level-appropriate encounters, but from a setting-logic perspective it's utter nonsense. Also, I'd point out, again, that there are enemies who remain the same whether you are level 1 or level 50 but have stats scaled to your level - most generic NPCs in Oblivion, for example.

Incidentally, one way to rationalize the universe giving you Minotaur Lords instead of Wolves is that your character is going insane from stress and trauma. That minotaur lord attacking you? That's a wolf. Your character just sees it as a fantastic monster because they're delusional after fighting to seal countless Hell Portals Oblivion Gates and slaughtering thousands of apparently-suicidally-aggressive animals and people. Kind of fitting, considering that in Shivering Isles the player-character takes the mantle of Sheogorath, Prince of Madness.

[deuterio12]

2) Kenichi does not need several of the best masters of the world to keep up with talented people with a single lesser master. He needs several masters to surpass in a matter of months extremely talented people who have been trained since childhood by at least one master equal to Kenichi's.

Then why do Kenichi's masters keep beating the crap of everybody else's masters? Why does the old man keeps being called the strongest man in the world and said gramps is actually the one stopping the evil organization's evil plan in the end? Kenichi's literally got the best tutors in the world.

It also helps that two of them are top class medics that are literal miracle workers so even when Kenichi gets beaten into pulp if not outright killed he can be fixed in record time.



Kenichi's only advantage was that he worked harder. And that alone was enough to make up for all the other stuff.

No he didn't. By your own words:



Kenichi surpasses people with significantly more talent, more training, more real world experience, and better breeding.

Kenichi trained hard, but his later opponents are literal child soldiers that have known nothing but training and combat since they could walk by mercyless masters that would certainly beat them up if not outright kill them if said disciples showed any sign of slacking off.

Plus Kenichi doesn't "surpass" as much as he keeps getting underestimated again and again. Virtually every one of his opponents thinks he's just some lowly peasant and takes it easy, and pride and overconfidence will bring down the strongest warrior.

So the key difference is that Kenichi lucked out in finding the world's best tutors that know the best moves and are all willing to work together. But alas by definition there's only that many world's best tutors to go around.



I'd like to draw particular attention to the fact that he did all this in maybe a year and a half. It wasn't just talent that was stacked against him, it was time. This is a universe were anyone can turn their life around at any point as long as they are willing to put in the effort necessary. You could certainly argue whether or not this is fair but if nothing else that's insanely forgiving.

Not anyone, just the one really (un)lucky kid to trip into the gathering of the world's best masters that happened to be willing to share full-time training of a single disciple. While Kenichi's being trained, the rest of the world's talentless kids are straight out of luck.

[Celestia]

case in point: Articuno is PU. the lowest tier of pokemon possible. as in, "peeyew, it stinks" because it is Ice/Flying.

why is this so bad? because both types are weak to rock, so its x4 weak to rock.

meaning you can defeat a legendary, by just going up to it and throwing a rock at it, because that rock will probably take out Articuno in one hit. ARTICUNO! THE LEGENDARY BIRD! CONTROLS THE CLIMATE! EASY DEFEATED BY ROCK TO THE FACE!
The ×4 weakness to rock is significant because of stealth rock, which seriously wrecks face in the competitive scene. It's also why Charizard sucks. fite me. :smalltongue:

[Traab]

I still say its one piece because there is literally nothing that cant be surpassed by a normal human going through extensive training. The best devil fruits can be countered by haki. Even conquerors haki can be ignored or overcome by being strong willed yourself. (Or hopped up on fishman steroids) Super powers are available for literally anyone willing to put in the effort to get them, with the only limit being your own willingness to keep training harder and maybe finding a good enough teacher to take yourself past basic levels of super like marine mooks. Pokemon is a good choice but the issue there is, it isnt "your" power, its the animals you enslaved and trained.

[Lord Raziere]

The ×4 weakness to rock is significant because of stealth rock, which seriously wrecks face in the competitive scene. It's also why Charizard sucks. fite me. :smalltongue:

Your not disagreeing with me. Moltres is Fire/Flying as well. all of them die to rock in face. steal rock is a rock in the face, if a very pointy rock.

[deuterio12]

I still say its one piece because there is literally nothing that cant be surpassed by a normal human going through extensive training. The best devil fruits can be countered by haki. Even conquerors haki can be ignored or overcome by being strong willed yourself. (Or hopped up on fishman steroids) Super powers are available for literally anyone willing to put in the effort to get them, with the only limit being your own willingness to keep training harder and maybe finding a good enough teacher to take yourself past basic levels of super like marine mooks.

Then why are only a few marine sailors able to use haki? The navy has quite a bit of haki masters, are they skimping in the training department? Why don't seasoned adventurers that are on the run from the navy like Robin learn it either?

But ok, let's assume that anybody can learn haki just by training and the navy is too incompetent/corrupt to properly train their own troopers on it and Robin's actually too lazy about it despite her very life being in the line.

Even then at best haki only allows you to be super tough and hard hitting. But devil fruit users are the ones getting crazy utility like flying and teleportation and changing people's genders and healing and plain immortality and splicing people's souls to animate objects and whatnot. No matter how hard you train, you'll still be pretty limited to the lucky ones who got a devil fruit.

[Reddish Mage]

I'm telling y'all it's gotta be HxH. While combat nen is kept secret by the Hunter's Association (and very poorly, since a lot of people manage to learn it without getting their Hunter's License), literally anyone dedicated to learning a skill can unconsciously develop Nen that will make them supernaturally better at performing that skill.

You wanna become a counterfeiter? Work at it enough and you'll not only be able to create fakes good enough to fool their creators, but be able to recognize fakes just by a glance. Unless, of course, that object was also created with Nen, but something nice about the system is that anyone who uses nen is that they can recognize anything made with it, even if they don't know what it is specifically. There's literally a character who wanted to grow up to become a fortuneteller, so over time she developed actual divination powers, without even knowing how or why it happened. And if that's not fair then i dunno what is.

The concept works perfectly except the bit about the powers have to be public. I don't know about the diviner, but I think its pretty clear a counterfeiter would want to keep that power secret.

Also the process by which one gets the powers is secret. You said the diviner herself was surprised by it.

However, Hunter x Hunter is a shounen with tournaments, super heroes, special people, and so on. There's no way the protagonists are just ordinary people anyone else can be like.

This is the thing her. The OP's concept of "fairness" to superpowers is quite extreme and exactly the opposite of stories about people with powers go for. You need total equal opportunity (everyone has an equal shot to get it), total publicity (everyone knows it), and a totally identical library of accessible powers to everyone.

Yet people are talking about big popular manga stories with the big heroes on the thread. The entire notion that someone can stand out for having powers completely runs against the grain of what's being demanded. Just because something is obtained through hard work or desire or something doesn't make it equal, let alone public and part of a power-catalog that everyone gets.

Think about it, if something comes by hard work, there may not be equal access to the leisure and means to work hard to get the power. If it is obtained by desire, you are making a mistake if you think that people are absolutely in control of their own desire.

Even if you jump the equal opportunity hurdle there are two others to get through and none of these Shounen do that either.

[Lord Raziere]

You need total equal opportunity (everyone has an equal shot to get it), total publicity (everyone knows it), and a totally identical library of accessible powers to everyone.

Yes, many of these settings fail. if not all.

Lets try and evaluate it by this rubric:

Name:
Equal Opportunity: Y/N
Total Publicity: Y/N
Identical Library: Y/N

Examples:
Avatar The Last Airbender:
Equal Opportunity: No (have to be born that way)
Total Publicity: Yes
Identical Library: No. (separated by elements)

Pokemon:
Equal Opportunity: Almost Yes (Most pokemon are freely available to capture and train which forms the vast majority of the power of the setting, and the few standout powers don't impact the setting on a wide scale and can be defeated using the commonly available methods)
Total Publicity: Yes.
Identical Library: Yes.

Naruto:
Equal Opportunity: No. (while its publiclyy known, and theoretically anyone can train it, only certain hidden villages actually train you to use chakra)
Total Publicity: Yes but maybe No (many clans keep their techniques secret to preserve their usefulness)
Identical Library: No. (while there are some common techniques, two-element jutsus and above are locked by certain bloodlines, many clans keep their techniques secret from everyone else, the beast containers have massive amounts of power no one else has, the rinnegan and Sharingan are hax, and so on)

One Piece:
Equal Opportunity: No. (heres the thing: there are fishmen slaves. the Navy is primarily human. fishmen are often pirates. that discrimination, so fishmen are discriminated against by the World Government, as they often salves to the World Gov's Nobility, so not equal opportunity)
Total Publicity: Yes (but might be No- if its not public WHICH devil fruit grants, then you can't really say its total publicity if people don't know what power you actually GET eh?)
Identical Library: No. (different races, different fruits, weird cybernetics, King's haki, and so on all locked behind this and that)

Bleach:
Equal Opportunity: No.
Total Publicity: No.
Identical Library: No.

Fairy Tail:
Equal Opportunity: Yes (since there are forms of magic even the magicless can use to be elite mages)
Total Publicity: Yes
Identical Library: No. (Dragon Slayers don't seem to be the same, needing to be chosen by a dragon and lot of forms of magic seem to run on different principles)

DC Universe:
Equal Opportunity: No. (you need to be born an alien for some powers, or need to experience freak accidents or....)
Total Publicity: Yes
Identical Library: No.

Marvel Universe:
Equal Opportunity: No. ( X-Men superpower birth lottery is not equal opportunity. some have it some don't, and thus some just don't get the same opportunity, because there will inevitably be powerless people or those who have a power so minor it doesn't matter)
Total Publicity: Yes
Identical Library: No. (Again, X-Men superpower birth lottery makes this an automatic no)

Eclipse Phase:
Equal Opportunity: Yes or Almost Yes (anyone can get the right upgrades and body if they're willing to go into debt, and anyone can be infected with the Watts-Mcleod strain of the Exsurgent virus to get organic brain-hacking powers at the cost of sanity...if you consider infection to be equal opportunity)
Total Publicity: Yes (everyone knows about the transhuman tech that keeps everyone alive)
Identical Library: Yes (every single power is a known made thing on the market available in catalogues)

Dungeons and Dragons:
Equal Opportunity: No. (powers are gated behind either alignment or score gates that not everyone will possess, so no, not everyone can be a wizard)
Total Publicity: Yes
Identical Library: No. (different classes have different spell lists, different races have their own little powers, monsters have their own little powers)

Dragon Ball:
Equal Opportunity: No. (Saiyans have powers that humans don't for one)
Total Publicity: No. (ki is kept secret on Earth despite it being common elsewhere, and primitive civilizations in general may not know about it)
Identical Library: No. (While ki techniques are pretty much the same, Saiyans have power-ups that humans don't and Buu, Piccolo and Cell can regenerate because of biological reasons that others don't have)

El Goonish Shive:
Equal Opportunity: Yes
Total Publicity: Yes
Identical Library: No. (spells are developed individually can thus there is no common spells for everyone to draw upon)

Harry Potter:
Equal Opportunity: No. (you have to be born a wizard)
Total Publicity: No. (its secret)
Identical Library: Almost yes (Parseltongue is a power Harry and Voldemort have, other than that everyone uses the same spells)

Exalted:
Equal Opportunity: NOPE
Total Publicity: NOOOOOOOOOO
Identical Library: HAHAHAHA NO.

Star Wars:
Equal Opportunity: No. (you have to be force-sensitive to be wield it, so not everyone can be a Jedi)
Total Publicity: Yes
Identical Library: No. (sith force lightning seems to be exclusive to evil, so you can't really say its identical, and Droids have their powers that biological beings don't)

[Forum Explorer]

Well lets put mine to the test.

Bioshock
Equal Opportunity: Kinda (the powers cost money, so obviously that's a restriction right there. But at the same time it's not insanely expensive either, so most people can afford a power or two)
Total Publicity: Yes (they are actively advertised)
Identical Library: Kinda. (Again more money = more powers. But also some powers the player gets are experimental, or are hidden in some way)

[AvatarVecna]

Superpowers are more or less inherently unfair; there are approaches to it that are fair in some ways and decidedly unfair in others. Aliens are superhuman by right of birth (you barely ever read stories about aliens that are weaker than humanity, because where's the fulfilling conflict?). Magic is either an innate gift of birth or knowledge of how to use it is hidden away to keep the world sane. Mutations are literally a freak accident of birth. Even powers gained through training or technology are inherently unfair: any superhero that's playing at a real super level who got there through training is more or less a peak human in every conceivable way, to the point that it basically has to be divorced from the real world.

Even ignoring the absolute ridiculous levels everything gets to in DBZ and beyond, ignoring all Goku's crap, look at Krillin: prior to training, he pushed a boulder a hundred times his size, and ran a 10 second 100m dash - when he said he could try out for the Olympics if he wanted to, he's not joking. If I'm understanding the wiki correctly, he was 9 years old at the time, and is right up against the male and female world records for the 100m dash...and Roshi beats him a minute later! But ignore Dragonball entirely, that's weird anime crap, what about Batman? Let's be real: even if we were pulling from the less insane Arkham games (rather than using comic feats (https://comicvine.gamespot.com/batman/4005-1699/forums/batman-feats-physical-and-mental-feats-1783533/) like where Batman pins two cape buffalos at once through sheer physical strength or switches drinking glasses with somebody in the time it takes them to blink), Batman is still very clearly at least peak human (or beyond peak human) in multiple physical and mental categories. And reaching peak human status in any particular area requires both the genes and the training to reach - somebody naturally faster who doesn't train, or somebody naturally slow who trains their heart out, is never gonna be the next Usain Bolt. When somebody is able to reach that level in such a variety of fields, a good bit of that has gotta be just the perfect storm of genes and determination, and it's difficult to measure against that even if you want to.

But what about technology? Well here's the thing: technology is great for if you've got the smarts to make it or the money to buy it, but the former is more of the same "genes+training" thing I just mentioned, while the latter...well, the kind of money that can buy tech-based superpowers probably wasn't exactly earned fairly (the closest you'll get is guys like Batman who, rather than getting it by being a savvy businessman with all that entails, inherited it from a savvy businessman, but inheritance isn't exactly earned either).

Of course, all of this gets back to a question, and it's not the "what's a fair way to get superpowers" question the OP is asking. The question is "who deserves to have superpowers"...and the answer is, nobody. Nobody deserves to have superpowers, and that's why no method of acquiring superpowers can be fair, outside of a Syndrome Situation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8I9pYCl9AQ).

[AvatarVecna]

Well lets put mine to the test.

Bioshock
Equal Opportunity: Kinda (the powers cost money, so obviously that's a restriction right there. But at the same time it's not insanely expensive either, so most people can afford a power or two)
Total Publicity: Yes (they are actively advertised)
Identical Library: Kinda. (Again more money = more powers. But also some powers the player gets are experimental, or are hidden in some way)

My questions are phrased the way they are because I've only played the first game.

1) Don't the Bioshock games take place in areas more or less cut off from the world at large?

2) Wasn't one of the main problems in-universe that the people who weren't able/willing to splice early on were either under the thumb of Andrew/Frank/the Splicers, or dead by the time the game starts?

...you're Ryan's son, and thus have access to resurrection technology and the pods allowing travel between sections that others don't? Meaning you can throw bodies at every problem until you succeed, introducing an in-universe and very intentional advantage for those of the Ryan bloodline?

4) Speaking of how the pods limited what parts of Rapture people had access to, some of the good powers were in later levels of the game, and thus unavailable to people who were trapped in earlier sections. Does this crew with Identical Library enough?

[Forum Explorer]

My questions are phrased the way they are because I've only played the first game.

1) Don't the Bioshock games take place in areas more or less cut off from the world at large?

2) Wasn't one of the main problems in-universe that the people who weren't able/willing to splice early on were either under the thumb of Andrew/Frank/the Splicers, or dead by the time the game starts?

...you're Ryan's son, and thus have access to resurrection technology and the pods allowing travel between sections that others don't? Meaning you can throw bodies at every problem until you succeed, introducing an in-universe and very intentional advantage for those of the Ryan bloodline?

4) Speaking of how the pods limited what parts of Rapture people had access to, some of the good powers were in later levels of the game, and thus unavailable to people who were trapped in earlier sections. Does this crew with Identical Library enough?

1) Sure, but considering the almost complete lack of interaction between the areas and the general world you can almost label them as being a world unto themselves.

2) Maybe in the first one, but not by Bioshock Infinite. Also that's a different problem to the superpowers.

3) Was that the reason? It still doesn't really make sense considering you end up killing Ryan permanently.

4) That's more a matter of society falling apart. Before everything went wrong, there was nothing suggesting movement was limited.


On that note, Bioshock is an interesting example. The superpowers might be fair (cheap to purchase, easy to use, more or less same library of powers), but the societies they are in are not (one being a pure capitalist society, and the other being a slave owning and very racist society).

[AvatarVecna]

1) Sure, but considering the almost complete lack of interaction between the areas and the general world you can almost label them as being a world unto themselves.

2) Maybe in the first one, but not by Bioshock Infinite. Also that's a different problem to the superpowers.

3) Was that the reason? It still doesn't really make sense considering you end up killing Ryan permanently.

4) That's more a matter of society falling apart. Before everything went wrong, there was nothing suggesting movement was limited.


On that note, Bioshock is an interesting example. The superpowers might be fair (cheap to purchase, easy to use, more or less same library of powers), but the societies they are in are not (one being a pure capitalist society, and the other being a slave owning and very racist society).

1) Everybody in Harry Potter is capable of magic as long as you only focus on people who are part of that society sealed/hidden away from the rest of the world. Unless there's canon evidence/implications that splicing/etc has spread significantly beyond the settings of the games?

3) A quick check of the wiki indicates that this was indeed the reason: the only person genetically keyed into the Vita-Chambers was Andrew Ryan...and apparently, as part of his final **** you to the protagonist, he turned the one in his office off deliberately, for some reason.

[Traab]

Then why are only a few marine sailors able to use haki? The navy has quite a bit of haki masters, are they skimping in the training department? Why don't seasoned adventurers that are on the run from the navy like Robin learn it either?

But ok, let's assume that anybody can learn haki just by training and the navy is too incompetent/corrupt to properly train their own troopers on it and Robin's actually too lazy about it despite her very life being in the line.

Even then at best haki only allows you to be super tough and hard hitting. But devil fruit users are the ones getting crazy utility like flying and teleportation and changing people's genders and healing and plain immortality and splicing people's souls to animate objects and whatnot. No matter how hard you train, you'll still be pretty limited to the lucky ones who got a devil fruit.

For the same reason the marines dont have 50 bazillion admirals. Its a military outfit with set limits on ranks and what you are taught. Not everyone is going to reach flag rank. Whether thats due to lack of skill, lack of desire, lack of openings, lack of luck, or politics of some sort, most people wont rise above a certain rank. Also, the world government is all about control, you think they will just hand out the techniques that would let anyone stand up to them to every first year seaman? But that doesnt change the fact that going by the words in setting, haki is something ANYONE can learn. And thats just the haki, the rokushiki is something virtually all the marines learn at least 1-2 of. And people like luffy and sanji recreate on their own just by knowing its possible. Even if it may not be done precisely the same way. Allowing people to do things like walk on air, move at blinding speed, fire off long distance attacks that can cut through freaking mountains! Yes devil fruits give unique abilities that regular folk cant copy, but again, they arent skills that cant be overcome and defeated by regular humans. Not even counting the various weaknesses they have.

As for Robin? She has been a traitor who is betrayed by everyone she has met since she was a little girl. Who precisely was she supposed to trust to teach her haki? Who would trust her enough to TEACH her haki? We cant be sure if she has or has not learned to use either observation or armament haki over the timeskip yet, maybe in wano we will get to see more of her skills. And none of that matters though, because in this setting, everyone can explicitly learn how to become superhuman through hard work and training.

[lord_khaine]

1) Everybody in Harry Potter is capable of magic as long as you only focus on people who are part of that society sealed/hidden away from the rest of the world. Unless there's canon evidence/implications that splicing/etc has spread significantly beyond the settings of the games?

Anyone is not able to use magic. But those are the shunned exceptions.
Like the janitor guy with the cat.


For the same reason the marines dont have 50 bazillion admirals. Its a military outfit with set limits on ranks and what you are taught. Not everyone is going to reach flag rank. Whether thats due to lack of skill, lack of desire, lack of openings, lack of luck, or politics of some sort, most people wont rise above a certain rank. Also, the world government is all about control, you think they will just hand out the techniques that would let anyone stand up to them to every first year seaman? But that doesnt change the fact that going by the words in setting, haki is something ANYONE can learn. And thats just the haki, the rokushiki is something virtually all the marines learn at least 1-2 of. And people like luffy and sanji recreate on their own just by knowing its possible. Even if it may not be done precisely the same way. Allowing people to do things like walk on air, move at blinding speed, fire off long distance attacks that can cut through freaking mountains! Yes devil fruits give unique abilities that regular folk cant copy, but again, they arent skills that cant be overcome and defeated by regular humans. Not even counting the various weaknesses they have.

Well.. of course.. its in theory everyone can learn to use Haki, though there is no guarantee how good they can get either. The same way, everyone can open a lawbook and study jura, but not everyone can get good enough to pass the tests for becoming a lawyer.

Rokushiki is a rather exclusive art. We have seen examples of people unable to master more than 2. Rob Lucci saw them as trash.
And its at the same time not something all learn. We have examples of officers not demonstrating even 1 of the forms, though they were under captain level.

Still.. i think the unfairness is around the one in our world. I mean, if you want to be an olympian athlete, then you could train your entire life, and still fail if you did not have the genetic for it.
So.. i guess this actually muddle the issue further. You can fail simply because you by nature isnt dilligent enough.

[Traab]

Anyone is not able to use magic. But those are the shunned exceptions.
Like the janitor guy with the cat.



Well.. of course.. its in theory everyone can learn to use Haki, though there is no guarantee how good they can get either. The same way, everyone can open a lawbook and study jura, but not everyone can get good enough to pass the tests for becoming a lawyer.

Rokushiki is a rather exclusive art. We have seen examples of people unable to master more than 2. Rob Lucci saw them as trash.
And its at the same time not something all learn. We have examples of officers not demonstrating even 1 of the forms, though they were under captain level.

Still.. i think the unfairness is around the one in our world. I mean, if you want to be an olympian athlete, then you could train your entire life, and still fail if you did not have the genetic for it.
So.. i guess this actually muddle the issue further. You can fail simply because you by nature isnt dilligent enough.

Now that is true, though to quibble, lucci was basically the equivalent of that old blind master of shaolin movies in that he didnt just know the skills, he had utterly mastered them, to the level where he unlocked special abilities of his own. So its understandable that he would look down on the others. Its like bruce lee looking at some mid rank belt student. Yeah the guy knows the moves, but he hasnt mastered them even remotely to lee's level. And honestly, there is no way around the whole lack of natural ability. Its just a simple reality that some people are going to be better at things than others. But at least in this setting, its pretty explicitly stated that these are skills anyone can learn. They may never be able to truly master them, but they CAN learn. So I think thats why I would judge it the most fair of super powered universes. In marvel you either have a mutant ability or some other special circumstance, or you dont. In harry potter you either have magic or you dont, and most dont. In one piece, these superhuman skills are ones everyone has the capacity to learn to one extent or another. You may be lousy at sky walking, meaning you can barely keep your balance and your elevation is constantly changing, but you can still DO IT.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah.. the point i were trying to make were also that it was a pretty fair super powered universe.
Its not binary like marvel, dc or or a lot of others like Bleach.

You can still be unlucky, train 10+ years, and be beaten by someone who only trained ½ the time but had superior aptitude.
But at least you likely has a chance. Zorro is an example of how far you can get with just basic initial training.. and then dedidicating your entire life to a goal.

[Forum Explorer]

1) Everybody in Harry Potter is capable of magic as long as you only focus on people who are part of that society sealed/hidden away from the rest of the world. Unless there's canon evidence/implications that splicing/etc has spread significantly beyond the settings of the games?

3) A quick check of the wiki indicates that this was indeed the reason: the only person genetically keyed into the Vita-Chambers was Andrew Ryan...and apparently, as part of his final **** you to the protagonist, he turned the one in his office off deliberately, for some reason.

Except they aren't. There are quite a few muggle characters and interactions with muggles. And said interactions with muggles have a big influence on the setting and what happens in the books, even if it's only typically the beginning of the books.

For Bioshock? The surface is only interacted with once, in a vision quest thingy. It's there and exists, but it doesn't have any impact on the story. In either Bioshock one or Infinite. It's basically a world apart from the world of Rapture/Columbia.


Now that is true, though to quibble, lucci was basically the equivalent of that old blind master of shaolin movies in that he didnt just know the skills, he had utterly mastered them, to the level where he unlocked special abilities of his own. So its understandable that he would look down on the others. Its like bruce lee looking at some mid rank belt student. Yeah the guy knows the moves, but he hasnt mastered them even remotely to lee's level. And honestly, there is no way around the whole lack of natural ability. Its just a simple reality that some people are going to be better at things than others. But at least in this setting, its pretty explicitly stated that these are skills anyone can learn. They may never be able to truly master them, but they CAN learn. So I think thats why I would judge it the most fair of super powered universes. In marvel you either have a mutant ability or some other special circumstance, or you dont. In harry potter you either have magic or you dont, and most dont. In one piece, these superhuman skills are ones everyone has the capacity to learn to one extent or another. You may be lousy at sky walking, meaning you can barely keep your balance and your elevation is constantly changing, but you can still DO IT.

I think that's worth emphasizing though. You might say that Haki might just be hard work, willpower, and effort, but quite frankly that's not equal between people. And it can be a pretty dramatic difference too.

[AvatarVecna]

Except they aren't. There are quite a few muggle characters and interactions with muggles. And said interactions with muggles have a big influence on the setting and what happens in the books, even if it's only typically the beginning of the books.

For Bioshock? The surface is only interacted with once, in a vision quest thingy. It's there and exists, but it doesn't have any impact on the story. In either Bioshock one or Infinite. It's basically a world apart from the world of Rapture/Columbia.

I think you're trying to down play the similarities that are very much there. You say "everybody who's already in Rapture gets a totally fair chance at superpowers" as if that means that the rest of the planet that doesn't get superpowers access doesn't count as the same setting. It would be one thing if superpowers were only available in Rapture, but it was open to the public and people could visit to try their luck at playing the superpower economy.

Instead, not only is most of the world outside of Rapture (and thus doesn't have access to superpowers), not only is it impossible for anybody in the outside world except for very specifically the game's silent protagonist to enter Rapture once it's locked down, not only are Rapture's superpowers only discovered because of what would be illegal experimentation anyplace other than Rapture on extremely rare deep-sea slugs (which makes it difficult-to-impossible for these superpowers to even accidentally happen somewhere else), not only are the sections of Rapture separate from each other (preventing everybody from having even access to library of powers even inside Rapture, as evidenced by how some of the neat powers in later sections of the game don't appear early on, like the Houdini abilities), not only are the vast majority of Rapture's inhabitants cold corpses lying everywhere (some of which are confirmed via audio logs as some of the final waves of new arrivals that didn't get much of a chance at all to participate in the superpower lottery before getting offed), not only is it a major plot point that Ryan used his authority and influence to steal away with the company making superpowers and attempted to crack down on how available they were, not only are the freaking in-universe resurrection powers only available to one dude and his one unintended unknown child, but the entire point of Bioshock is pointing out how the idea of this "everybody gets a chance" utopia just plain didn't work specifically because Ryan was rigging the game from the start so that he'd come out on top, and the only reason he lost while cheating the system is because he went up against somebody even better at cheating the system.

All of those issues cause little problems here and there for the three categories put forward, in ways that bear more than a passing resemblance to some of the other settings put forward. What could change that, for me, is if it was confirmed in some way in-canon that the outside world at large has access to superpowers in some other fashion that is comparable to Rapture's (even if they don't take the opportunity to capitalize on them); even that would run into "power library" issues, but at least it'd be something. Beyond that, you're going to have your work cut out for you convincing me that Rapture is a capitalist utopia of a fair and balanced superpower lottery, given that I've played through Bioshock and taking the quite frankly incredibly simple point the entire game was making about the idea of Rapture and ADAM.

[Knaight]

Some slightly odd ones:

Godlike: It's a WWII superheroes RPG setting in the ORE family, and the way superpowers are assigned is absolutely unfair - it's some sort of dispersed human ability that seems to get activated by large scale cultural trauma and take a form influenced by the myths and culture heroes of that country. The setting also explicitly has a very screwy distribution of superheroes by country because of this, so in some places you're pretty likely to get some (Canada), and in others you're out of luck (Japan, though that changes very abruptly at the tail end of the war for two very obvious reasons). It seems, at first blush, horrifically unfair.

The great equalizer is what those superpowers get you - thrown into the grist of WWII to get killed just like everyone else, quite often not by other superheroes. The first major superhero, gifted with flight powers that made him better than any flying ace in a plane? Brought down by the invention of the proximity fuse, as delivered by an AA gun. Also one of the major superpowers is just an effect that shuts down the rest of them.

This does involve playing a bit fast and loose with the fairness criteria, but when the major effect of most of the superpowers is to slightly change how you get killed in WWII, and basically everyone already has a worryingly high chance of getting killed in WWII there's basically parity.

Dying Earth: There's powerful magic (heavily implied to be Sufficiently Advanced Science (TM) from a much more developed previous culture) out there. How to access it is public information, you go wandering through a dangerous world poking at dangerous things and hope you get lucky, and even then it helps if you've got guile by the bucketload. This also fits the other two criteria perfectly - there's no special bloodlines that get you powers, and the powers out there to be found are the powers out there to be found, no matter who has them. It's fair, in much the same sense as the lottery and Russian roulette. The process is also a little like both of them together, but with the odds increased dramatically. For both of them.

Tigana: Tigana is a fantasy setting based mostly on Italian history, but with a side of magic. This magic is available to everyone, everyone knows exactly how to access it, and the process can be reliably performed without getting killed or similar. All you have to do is cut off two fingers, and while I don't remember which two it's two on the same hand right next to each other, one of which is the middle finger. Either way your grip is shot and everyday life gets a whole lot more inconvenient. Plus cutting off fingers hurts.

[Some Android]

Does Smash Bros Count? I only ask because I think the Wii Fit Trainer is a playable character in one of the games* and if that person can go toe-to-toe with the hero of time and an intergalactic bounty hunter then there must be something for average people.

*The last Smash Bros game I played was on the N64 so I'm out of the loop.

[Forum Explorer]

I think you're trying to down play the similarities that are very much there. You say "everybody who's already in Rapture gets a totally fair chance at superpowers" as if that means that the rest of the planet that doesn't get superpowers access doesn't count as the same setting. It would be one thing if superpowers were only available in Rapture, but it was open to the public and people could visit to try their luck at playing the superpower economy.

Instead, not only is most of the world outside of Rapture (and thus doesn't have access to superpowers), not only is it impossible for anybody in the outside world except for very specifically the game's silent protagonist to enter Rapture once it's locked down, not only are Rapture's superpowers only discovered because of what would be illegal experimentation anyplace other than Rapture on extremely rare deep-sea slugs (which makes it difficult-to-impossible for these superpowers to even accidentally happen somewhere else), not only are the sections of Rapture separate from each other (preventing everybody from having even access to library of powers even inside Rapture, as evidenced by how some of the neat powers in later sections of the game don't appear early on, like the Houdini abilities), not only are the vast majority of Rapture's inhabitants cold corpses lying everywhere (some of which are confirmed via audio logs as some of the final waves of new arrivals that didn't get much of a chance at all to participate in the superpower lottery before getting offed), not only is it a major plot point that Ryan used his authority and influence to steal away with the company making superpowers and attempted to crack down on how available they were, not only are the freaking in-universe resurrection powers only available to one dude and his one unintended unknown child, but the entire point of Bioshock is pointing out how the idea of this "everybody gets a chance" utopia just plain didn't work specifically because Ryan was rigging the game from the start so that he'd come out on top, and the only reason he lost while cheating the system is because he went up against somebody even better at cheating the system.

All of those issues cause little problems here and there for the three categories put forward, in ways that bear more than a passing resemblance to some of the other settings put forward. What could change that, for me, is if it was confirmed in some way in-canon that the outside world at large has access to superpowers in some other fashion that is comparable to Rapture's (even if they don't take the opportunity to capitalize on them); even that would run into "power library" issues, but at least it'd be something. Beyond that, you're going to have your work cut out for you convincing me that Rapture is a capitalist utopia of a fair and balanced superpower lottery, given that I've played through Bioshock and taking the quite frankly incredibly simple point the entire game was making about the idea of Rapture and ADAM.

No, I acknowledge that the society Rapture has makes it unfair. But the superpowers themselves? Anyone can get them, they aren't expensive to make, and there is pretty much one library of them. Theoretically, there is nothing stopping Rapture from being a society that sold them like the USA sells guns.

In fact, Columbia (Bioshock Infinite) is basically this. You even win your first power as a carnival prize. Or it was being sold in a carnival, I can't remember. It's not entirely fair, because Columbia is a slave owning state with a massive underclass, and thus the society itself isn't fair. Not that it stopped the inevitable uprising from getting their hands on powers when it came down to it. It just was illegal for them to do so. But hey, when your plan of action is to stick the current head of state's head on a pike, I don't think you are bothered about breaking the law. But I digress.

The point is that the powers themselves are fair. You don't need a genius level intellect, to be a master level martial artist, or have the will of a god. You don't need a special bloodline, or to be fated by the stars. You don't need to be a pure hearted maiden, or make a pact with a demon lord. You don't even need to be a brooding billionaire. It cost a lot, sure, but it's about 20 000$ today (to take a really rough estimate). So expensive, but affordable.

[deuterio12]

Also, the world government is all about control, you think they will just hand out the techniques that would let anyone stand up to them to every first year seaman?

Considering the number of pirates with devil fruit powers and pirate fishmen and whatnot, why yes it would make the world government's job a lot easier to expand haki training instead of losing control all the time a haki and/or devil fruit or fishman pirate shows up that can and will curbstomp any number of normal navy mooks.

If all it takes is training, one would expect every navy ship and port to have at least one haki dude, just like every ship/base worth their salt has a medic and engineer and other specialists, but haki doesn't show up at all for the first several arcs of the story. Funny that.


Yes devil fruits give unique abilities that regular folk cant copy, but again, they arent skills that cant be overcome and defeated by regular humans. Not even counting the various weaknesses they have.


That's like claiming that being able that being a top black belt is as useful as being a top medic. Yes, the black belt can break the medic's face, but the top medic will be the one saving countless lives and earning more money and status and winning a nobel prize then going down in history as the guy who found a cure for that incurable disease that you can't just solve with violence.

Being a combat haki master only makes you good at close personal combat, devil fruits can make you much more. Like that other king that got deposed and then just used his devil fruit powers to become filthy rich and buy himself a whole new country.

[BeerMug Paladin]

Not that I really consider it too important to stay on topic, but it seems to me that a lot of these suggestions are straying rather far from the suggested premise. I'm not too familiar with a lot of these settings, but based on what people are saying about them, it seems that they are exactly as equal as, say, the DC universe.

Batman is lacking in superpowers and can beat any of the superpowered beings in a duel. Thus proving that the superpowers in that universe suck badly enough that a simple human with no powers can overcome any of them. Simply because of "training". I'm talking about what is "possible" in universe, which as I have learned from Uncle Internet is pretty much anything because Batman has a long history.

Granted, I'm not sure if I've even seen anything that quite fits the OP's criteria. But it didn't specify anything like, "exclusive superpowers don't count if they suck badly enough that normal people can still beat superpowered characters". It asked for superpower distribution that is freely open to anyone and not "unique" in incarnation. That excludes settings with unique/hidden powers even if those powers are terrible. And it excludes settings with any sort of superpower restriction, even if those restrictions are "balanced" with other restrictions or powers.

And now I realize that maybe the conversation has gone in this direction because there might genuinely be nothing that matches the OP's criteria. Oops. Carry on.


Does Smash Bros Count? I only ask because I think the Wii Fit Trainer is a playable character in one of the games* and if that person can go toe-to-toe with the hero of time and an intergalactic bounty hunter then there must be something for average people.

*The last Smash Bros game I played was on the N64 so I'm out of the loop.
Actually, it's possible now to make a Mii fighter. Which is more or less a stand-in for the player. So, you can be in the game now and you stand roughly on par with an intergalactic bounty hunter, the hero of time and a princess with chronic abduction syndrome. Well, no fewer than two princesses...

[deuterio12]

Actually, it's possible now to make a Mii fighter. Which is more or less a stand-in for the player. So, you can be in the game now and you stand roughly on par with an intergalactic bounty hunter, the hero of time and a princess with chronic abduction syndrome. Well, no fewer than two princesses...

Well Mii Fighters at least get cannons or swords or super martial arts.

The Villager is a simple villager with a plain wood axe and gets a fair chance to murder everybody else.

[lord_khaine]

Considering the number of pirates with devil fruit powers and pirate fishmen and whatnot, why yes it would make the world government's job a lot easier to expand haki training instead of losing control all the time a haki and/or devil fruit or fishman pirate shows up that can and will curbstomp any number of normal navy mooks.

If all it takes is training, one would expect every navy ship and port to have at least one haki dude, just like every ship/base worth their salt has a medic and engineer and other specialists, but haki doesn't show up at all for the first several arcs of the story. Funny that.

It assumes it is easy to train people to the point where they can use Haki though.
So far the fastest seems to be around 2 years of personal instruction for a combat prodegy.
It also seems like most navy ships does indeed either have a DF user or someone with Haki as captain.
The exception likely being East (or was it north?) Blue, thats widely regardet as the weakest ocean.

[Knaight]

Not that I really consider it too important to stay on topic, but it seems to me that a lot of these suggestions are straying rather far from the suggested premise. I'm not too familiar with a lot of these settings, but based on what people are saying about them, it seems that they are exactly as equal as, say, the DC universe.

...

And now I realize that maybe the conversation has gone in this direction because there might genuinely be nothing that matches the OP's criteria. Oops. Carry on.

Pretty much - though I think my example of Tigana might actually fit.

[Ibrinar]

In journey to chaos everyone can learn magic, well everyone in that world, it is a setting with different worlds and some have a severe lack of mana like ours. But anyway it is a whole world so I don't think that is the same as harry potter and muggles. Everyone has learnt some magic though to be a master requires learning and different people will be worse or better at that (but I don't read the OP as forbidding differences in ability to learn/handle the powers as long as that doesn't come from blood line powers (not just normal genetics) or something, I think Reddish Mage is stretching the interpretation when concluding smartness differences can not matter). Though the world does have deity like beings, but I don't think gods really count. But there are different species and orcs for instance are rather durable and strong and there are plenty sentient animal and stuff and birds probably have weaker bodies etc. so not fair in that aspect. Haven't read enough of it yet to know whether there are people with extra special powers. The guilds receptionists spatial storage magic seems a bit specific to her for instance.

[deuterio12]

It assumes it is easy to train people to the point where they can use Haki though.
So far the fastest seems to be around 2 years of personal instruction for a combat prodegy.

I'm pretty sure your average medic takes a lot longer than 2 years to train, and I wouldn't trust a sea ship to an engineer with only 2 years of training either.



It also seems like most navy ships does indeed either have a DF user or someone with Haki as captain.
The exception likely being East (or was it north?) Blue, thats widely regardet as the weakest ocean.

Yeah Luffy and Zorro and Sanji, clearly only weaklings in there. Also nevermind at least one whole island just taken over by angry fishmen.

[lord_khaine]

I'm pretty sure your average medic takes a lot longer than 2 years to train, and I wouldn't trust a sea ship to an engineer with only 2 years of training either.

It seems you missed the bit about 2 years being for combat prodegies?
Or that it makes quite a difference that you can train medics in classes?


Yeah Luffy and Zorro and Sanji, clearly only weaklings in there. Also nevermind at least one whole island just taken over by angry fishmen.

Well.. when your done showcasing your ignorance..

One Piece chapter 51. Mihawk straight up tells us East Blue is the weakest ocean.
Before beating Zorro with something the size of a pen knife. How much better do you think Luffy or Sanji would have done?

[Lord Raziere]

It assumes it is easy to train people to the point where they can use Haki though.
So far the fastest seems to be around 2 years of personal instruction for a combat prodegy.
It also seems like most navy ships does indeed either have a DF user or someone with Haki as captain.
The exception likely being East (or was it north?) Blue, thats widely regardet as the weakest ocean.

khaine, lets say it takes four years of instruction for non-prodigies, thats still equivalent effort to a college bachelors degree. that would still lead to a lot more people having Haki than this. heck, even if its 10 years, that still leads to something more common than it is in the Navy.

If it was 20 or 30 years to learn Haki, well that would start get to reasonably small numbers. thats a big chunk your life learning that. but if its anything close to two years for normal people, there is no reason not to put as much people as you can through the courses to learn it.

[lord_khaine]

khaine, lets say it takes four years of instruction for non-prodigies, thats still equivalent effort to a college bachelors degree. that would still lead to a lot more people having Haki than this. heck, even if its 10 years, that still leads to something more common than it is in the Navy.

If it was 20 or 30 years to learn Haki, well that would start get to reasonably small numbers. thats a big chunk your life learning that. but if its anything close to two years for normal people, there is no reason not to put as much people as you can through the courses to learn it.

Yes.. but the important part of this is its 4 years of personal instruction. Of having a master dedicating the majority of their attention to said student.
The difference from college bachelors is you can train those in groups of 20-30 people.

And you dont at the same time posses a desperate need using those professors who should be teaching them to instead beat up amateur Logia users.

Thats what im arguing. That Haki runs on ancient kung-fu rules. The wise old master can only train 1-2 students at the time.

I do think the Navy is taking the reasonable course of action here. By using retired masters like Garb or Senku to train the next generation of Marine heroes.

[Lord Raziere]

Thats what im arguing. That Haki runs on ancient kung-fu rules. The wise old master can only train 1-2 students at the time.


Then its by definition not Equal Opportunity. sorry.

[Traab]

Yes.. but the important part of this is its 4 years of personal instruction. Of having a master dedicating the majority of their attention to said student.
The difference from college bachelors is you can train those in groups of 20-30 people.

And you dont at the same time posses a desperate need using those professors who should be teaching them to instead beat up amateur Logia users.

Thats what im arguing. That Haki runs on ancient kung-fu rules. The wise old master can only train 1-2 students at the time.

I do think the Navy is taking the reasonable course of action here. By using retired masters like Garb or Senku to train the next generation of Marine heroes.

Of course, the kung fu rules arent taken to their logical conclusion. 1 master trains 2 students. Those students train 2 students each, those 4 train 2 students each, etc etc etc etc. And even thats assuming the master teaches two students his tricks PERIOD. Even if it takes 10-20 years for a average non prodigy to learn enough of haki to be reasonably proficient, thats still several sets each master can teach int heir lifetime who them go on to teach that many themselves. The reason haki knowledge is fairly low is likely by design, both oda world building and the logic of the world government combined. They are clearly trying to control knowledge, they hoard some of the best stuff for themselves, seastone for one example. Knowledge of devil fruits is only really in depth through vegapunk. Sure general facts such as the most obvious, cant swim, lose strength submerged, are common knowledge, but the details are left up to individuals to figure out about their own power or that of their opponent. And of course the biggest example of trying to hide or destroy knowledge, the void century itself, and the destruction of ohana and murder of everyone there. All this strongly indicates a government that is VERY interested in control, and just letting every tom **** and harry learn powerful skills like haki would be a very bad thing, costing them some of their advantage in a fight as knowledge spreads. Restricting it to their higher ranks means ensuring it isnt taught to those who are likely to go teach others who might not be loyal. Or at least keeping it that much less likely to spread.

[deuterio12]

It seems you missed the bit about 2 years being for combat prodegies?
Or that it makes quite a difference that you can train medics in classes?

As pointed out, if the prodigy can learn it in 2 years, normal Joe can learn it in 4-8 years and that would result in a much bigger number of haki users than we see.



One Piece chapter 51. Mihawk straight up tells us East Blue is the weakest ocean.
Before beating Zorro with something the size of a pen knife. How much better do you think Luffy or Sanji would have done?

Thanks for proving how little you know about One Piece since otherwise you would know that Mihawk's the strongest swordman in the setting (to the point Zorro chose him as his training master for the 2-year timeskip), and since Mihawk's wandering East Blue that by definition makes East Blue serious business.

And yes, Zorro the young mercenary taking a direct blow from the strongest swordman in the world and living to tell the tale without being reduced to a cripple shows that East Blue's people are made of tough stuff.

Plus you know, Shanks, one of top 4 strongest pirates in One Piece that's respected by everybody and gave his trademark strawhat to Luffy, also can be commonly found in East Blue. Simply by sailing around East Blue you can find all sort of top-of-the-world badasses.

And said super pirate lost an arm to some random East Blue sea beast.

I'll repeat it for good measure, East Blue is so hardcore that even if you're in the top 4 of the pirate's power scale you still risk losing a limb just to the local wildlife.

[Traab]

As pointed out, if the prodigy can learn it in 2 years, normal Joe can learn it in 4-8 years and that would result in a much bigger number of haki users than we see.



Thanks for proving how little you know about One Piece since otherwise you would know that Mihawk's the strongest swordman in the setting (to the point Zorro chose him as his training master for the 2-year timeskip), and since Mihawk's wandering East Blue that by definition makes East Blue serious business.

And yes, Zorro the young mercenary taking a direct blow from the strongest swordman in the world and living to tell the tale without being reduced to a cripple shows that East Blue's people are made of tough stuff.

Plus you know, Shanks, one of top 4 strongest pirates in One Piece that's respected by everybody and gave his trademark strawhat to Luffy, also can be commonly found in East Blue. Simply by sailing around East Blue you can find all sort of top-of-the-world badasses.

And said super pirate lost an arm to some random East Blue sea beast.

I'll repeat it for good measure, East Blue is so hardcore that even if you're in the top 4 of the pirate's power scale you still risk losing a limb just to the local wildlife.


You just... and missed.. I dont even... WHAT?!?!?! Seriously this is insanely inaccurate rambling. Mihawk was in the east blue because he was bored and chasing down the remnants of kriegs fleet. He specifically chose to let zoro live because he was impressed by the mans drive, not because zoro was such a badass even the worlds deadliest swordsman couldnt take him down or some such rot. As for shanks, he intentionally tanked a shot from a skyscraper sized sea king to protect a little boy. Then after losing his arm, he looked at it hard and it ran away. The east blue had such terrifying villains as alvida, a pirate captain worth so little bringing in one of luffys FINGERS is worth more in bounty. The entire setting and everyone in it considers the east blue to be the weakest of the seas. Yes strong pirates can come from there, but the ones who stay there are meaningless chump change in the scheme of things.

[Knaight]

So, a caveat here: I don't know One Piece. I've picked up a bit by osmosis, but I never have and never will actually watch the show, as highly episodic weekly shows that rack up hundreds of episodes are very much not my thing.


Thanks for proving how little you know about One Piece since otherwise you would know that Mihawk's the strongest swordman in the setting (to the point Zorro chose him as his training master for the 2-year timeskip), and since Mihawk's wandering East Blue that by definition makes East Blue serious business.
That doesn't necessarily follow. The overall threat level isn't dictated by the outliers, particularly in the context of a large sample set. If the potential opposition is a giant pile of mooks with one real threat that completely outclasses you buried in it it's a lot less dangerous than a potential opposition of a giant pile of mooks liberally seasoned with real threats, even if said real threats are comparable instead of far better.


And said super pirate lost an arm to some random East Blue sea beast.

I'll repeat it for good measure, East Blue is so hardcore that even if you're in the top 4 of the pirate's power scale you still risk losing a limb just to the local wildlife.
This would be more convincing, though both the randomness of the sea beast and the extent to which it's local wildlife have been called into question. Which gets back to the influence of the threat levels of the outliers. An ocean with the leviathan world serpent which will eventually be involved in the apocalypse and kills everything it comes across, and also a bunch of small filter feeding fish is generally a whole lot dangerous than an ocean with a bunch of small filter feeding fish, providing the food baseline for a whole ecological level of massive and dangerous sharks, sea serpents, kraken, etc., even if said sharks serpents and kraken pose roughly the same threat to the leviathan world serpent as those small feeder fish.

[lord_khaine]

Then its by definition not Equal Opportunity. sorry.

It is about as equal as it can get? Everyone can get mystical powers if they find a trainer. As long as they are moderatly physically fit then they are not blocked by any other birth aspects. They just need to prove themselves somehow.


Of course, the kung fu rules arent taken to their logical conclusion. 1 master trains 2 students. Those students train 2 students each, those 4 train 2 students each, etc etc etc etc. And even thats assuming the master teaches two students his tricks PERIOD. Even if it takes 10-20 years for a average non prodigy to learn enough of haki to be reasonably proficient, thats still several sets each master can teach int heir lifetime who them go on to teach that many themselves.

Its more that this is taken in isolation. It might be possible this way in a perfect world whose only mission was to spread the knowledge of Haki. Its even likely to be the reason for why every warrior at Amazon Lilly knows the basics.

But it is not taking into consideration that those masters are a) extemely important people in the Marine, who also have other duties like leadership, and protecting people. And b) that its a really violent world where people suposedly die a lot more often than we see.

[Tyndmyr]

I'd second Big Hero Six.

Most super powered stories are not very equal at all. My favorite, the Parahumanverse, is blatantly unfair. Almost all of them have at least some degree of "these people get powers for reasons outside of their actions". Even if it's not everyone, it's definitely some.

Basically, if you posit some sort of amazing super-tech, you gotta justify why only some people have it. Otherwise, it's not a superhero tale, it's just sci-fi.

Marvel's probably the fairest outta the well known ones.

[PopeLinus1]

Might not be one of the more fair ones, but I'm required too point it out due too my Hyper-Super-Obscure-Fandom, The SuperPowereds universe. It's kinda fair in that all people have a chance of getting powers, but the powers themself are often superier too others. Oh and theirs a very high chance that you wont be able too control your power and your life will be a total nightmare.

Look it up! It's Great! You useed too be able too read it for free on the interwebs but now you can read it on a E-Book.

[Ibrinar]

Super powereds is pretty much run of the mile in regards to power distribution for the purpose of this thread, random powers given to random people.

Though talking about random distribution universes: 100 point heroes also has random distribution but everybody who does get powers can choose them from them same catalog and everyone has the same amount of points to spend on them. I guess that is as far to fair random people getting different powers gets.

[Gandariel]

I second Hunter X Hunter being very fair.

Everyone can get power, bar none.

Obviously some are more innately talented, but not unlike the real world. Everyone can run, not everyone could compete in the Olympics.

The way you get powers is just training. Having a trainer helps, just like in real life.
Everyone knows Hunters exist, and everyone can become a Hunter.

Now, getting to the actual "power" part.. you CHOOSE your own power.

There is small limitation, in that you will have innate "affinity" to one of the 6 types of skills, but it's not really a big deal, for two reasons.
1) you can still use the other skills, albeit at less effectiveness
2) the 6 categories are just broad groups, such as "enhancement : improve something in your self"
Once you realize what your affinity is, you can just decide to create a power and learn it.

It can be as creative as you want, and it will be as powerful as you are. You can even give it weird restrictions of rules.

A guy's power, for example "When I touched you earlier I can silently implant a bomb in you. The bomb has an x day timer that starts when I tell you the rules about this power.
You can disable the bomb by touching me and saying "I captured you".

Or another guy's, "I punch REALLY hard"

[Lizard Lord]

Dungeons and Dragons? Anyone can be any class right?

[Lord Raziere]

Dungeons and Dragons? Anyone can be any class right?

DnD isn't fair.

there are tons of monsters with abilities exclusive to them, therefore violates the race aspect of the question.

different classes don't have the same spell lists therefore doesn't fill the "must all have the same power library" aspect.

sorcerers have to inherit their abilities through blood. so not equal opportunity.

like most superhero works, the only criteria it fulfills is the "publicity" aspect.

[lord_khaine]

The way you get powers is just training. Having a trainer helps, just like in real life.
Everyone knows Hunters exist, and everyone can become a Hunter.

I am pretty certain that almost the only way to learn about nen is to find a trainer though. I dont believe there are any examples of people learning without a trainer.


DnD isn't fair.

there are tons of monsters with abilities exclusive to them, therefore violates the race aspect of the question.

different classes don't have the same spell lists therefore doesn't fill the "must all have the same power library" aspect.

sorcerers have to inherit their abilities through blood. so not equal opportunity.

like most superhero works, the only criteria it fulfills is the "publicity" aspect.

It gets even more unfair.
Because you are blocked from a lot of things by birth.
Like for example arcane magic. If your int isnt 11+ you wont be able to use anything but cantrips.

[Kitten Champion]

I am pretty certain that almost the only way to learn about nen is to find a trainer though. I dont believe there are any examples of people learning without a trainer.

No, there are. Komugi from the Chimera Ant arc is a Nen user - albeit unrefined because she wasn't using it consciously and has an extremely limited knowledge of the world in general - and there are other noted instances of individuals that have unlocked Nen through singular dedication to something. As Komugi had for her in-universe equivalent of Chess/Go, which she was willing to commit to the point that she was going to kill herself were she ever to lose a game. Which is the kind of hardcore conditions you need to place upon yourself if you want real power in HxH.

There's also someone like Neon Nostrade, who had a Ghostwriting Nen ability that could predict the future through poetry. She was just a genius with that particular ability, though her personality was fairly warped which might have something to it.

[Present 2.0]

different classes don't have the same spell lists therefore doesn't fill the "must all have the same power library" aspect.

That would be okay, if the characters can still choose between these classes. Than they'd block other powers at least by their own choice.

That could be away, to make it fair and still let the have the characters individual powers. Everyone can follow all the paths, but they can't learn stuff from all the paths.

[Reddish Mage]

Well.. of course.. its in theory everyone can learn to use Haki, though there is no guarantee how good they can get either. The same way, everyone can open a lawbook and study jura, but not everyone can get good enough to pass the tests for becoming a lawyer.


Also becoming a lawyer requires formal training from an accredited institution in most places before you are even allowed to sit for the test. An exclusive state-sanctioned board determines who can and cannot be a lawyer, and they include a lot of rules that exclude certain people (such as people convicted of certain crimes).

Law, as well as other highly regulated professions like medicine, are exactly the sort of example of something that would be unfair.

Also, lawyers don’t all pick from the same menu, certain law enforcement, military, and intelligence regulations and guidelines may be secret. Also, some places keep certain other laws or forms of law secret (i.e. Japan keeps judicial decisions secret from the general public).


That would be okay, if the characters can still choose between these classes. Than they'd block other powers at least by their own choice.

That could be away, to make it fair and still let the have the characters individual powers. Everyone can follow all the paths, but they can't learn stuff from all the paths.

Its the players that get to choose characters and character classes. The characters don’t necessarily have such opportunities. However stories where everyone is a player are a possibility. I mentioned this before, an MMO anime might fit, except they are all Shōnen and so all have secret powers and super-talented protagonists.

The very nature of these sorts of game world is to fill it with a bunch of rare and unique items and opportunities that are going to be exclusive.

Nothing mentioned is even remotely close to fitting the bill. To say something like Marvel is the most fair or even Hunter x Hunter is comparing something absurdly unequal to other things absurdly unequal to a very very big set. I’m not seeing the recognition that we’re dealing with the distribution of powers that are birthed in stories of special people who can do impossible things. One of the most common reasons also have to do with biology and inherited powers.

You can decide one universe is more fair compared to another, but to say one story is the fairest of all of them...if you then cite a popular anime or recent comic....I think you are looking at the wrong place.

[Tyndmyr]

Dungeons and Dragons? Anyone can be any class right?

Well, stats are distributed randomly, yes? Not chosen by each individual.

Casting stats are necessary in order to cast spells.

So, I'm gonna go with "not even vaguely equal". Some get to be god-wizards, and most do not.

[Traab]

Well, stats are distributed randomly, yes? Not chosen by each individual.

Casting stats are necessary in order to cast spells.

So, I'm gonna go with "not even vaguely equal". Some get to be god-wizards, and most do not.

I think stat choice is both determined in a number of different ways, and not as important long term as you might think. I mean sure nothing but 20s would be a nice start (if possible) But there are lots of long term ways to make up for any deficits. My centaur rogue can still be a badass even if at level one he is not as stealthy as he could be. :smallbiggrin:

[Kitten Champion]

I think this thread's issue is conflating fairness with mediocrity. That, unless everyone can do the same things that they're grievously and inherently unfarr.

I'm more of the mind of the Olympics analogy that Gandariel raised, that so long as X can be accessed by anyone based on their individual and justified merits rather than one's bloodline, fate or divine mandate, or any arbitrary requirements of which an individual has no agency over, they remain "fair". While the Olympics certainly discriminate against the non-athletic - and a tiny fraction of humanity will ever be an Olympian - and Olympians are "special" people undoubtedly, it's still something of a question mark for any child born that they could be one if they have the will to.

Granted, the Olympics are unfair in terms of the world being unfair - disparity between standards of living, the wealth and political backing for organized Olympic programs, performance-enhancing drugs which go undiscovered, etc. - which may or may not have parallel circumstances with this analogy. However, are we really demanding that fictional superpowers be more "fair" than mundane aspects of our reality? There's nothing desirable to a human in this world which everyone has equal access to, not really.

[Frozen_Feet]

Charles Atlas superpowers, acquired through training, are the fairest it can get, really. But most settings where that is a thing screw it up by having additional (and often superior) ways to power which are blatantly reliant on accident of birth or circumstance.

[deuterio12]

I think this thread's issue is conflating fairness with mediocrity. That, unless everyone can do the same things that they're grievously and inherently unfarr.

I'm more of the mind of the Olympics analogy that Gandariel raised, that so long as X can be accessed by anyone based on their individual and justified merits rather than one's bloodline, fate or divine mandate, or any arbitrary requirements of which an individual has no agency over, they remain "fair". While the Olympics certainly discriminate against the non-athletic - and a tiny fraction of humanity will ever be an Olympian - and Olympians are "special" people undoubtedly, it's still something of a question mark for any child born that they could be one if they have the will to.

Granted, the Olympics are unfair in terms of the world being unfair - disparity between standards of living, the wealth and political backing for organized Olympic programs, performance-enhancing drugs which go undiscovered, etc. - which may or may not have parallel circumstances with this analogy. However, are we really demanding that fictional superpowers be more "fair" than mundane aspects of our reality? There's nothing desirable to a human in this world which everyone has equal access to, not really.

Genetics still plays a very important role in how good of an athlete you can be so even in the real world it is a lottery. If you weren't born with the right body potential for sports, you'll never be a world sports champion no matter how hard you train.

[Kitten Champion]

Genetics still plays a very important role in how good of an athlete you can be so even in the real world it is a lottery. If you weren't born with the right body potential for sports, you'll never be a world sports champion no matter how hard you train.

Of course, we're all somewhat limited by our nature... but "you're too naturally talented for this to be fair" is not fair so much as enforcing mindless mediocrity. No matter what field you point to, select individuals will rise far above the rest. While others will have setbacks in their life and never have the opportunity to try. That's just reality.

The "fairness" of something isn't supposed to be based on meeting some impossible absolute average and then assessing the individual based on some voluntaristic paradigm, to grasp their... I don't know, Spirit? Some non-material basis for human ability? it's to take a newborn child, knowing nothing about their particular traits and abilities, and ask whether X is within their reach presupposing they desire X. This anonymous theoretical newborn could have all the potential in the world - you don't know - and they can be born in any circumstances to any parent.

The "unfairness" of bloodlines is to suggest that because you're born to so-and-so you will obtain X regardless of your individual abilities, or that those similar to or of greater capabilities as individuals don't matter because the blood - or name its attached to - is the merit itself. Nepotism, generally. Though super-powered universes can make it a genuine necessity.

[Chromascope3D]

I second Hunter X Hunter being very fair.

Everyone can get power, bar none.

Obviously some are more innately talented, but not unlike the real world. Everyone can run, not everyone could compete in the Olympics.

The way you get powers is just training. Having a trainer helps, just like in real life.
Everyone knows Hunters exist, and everyone can become a Hunter.

Now, getting to the actual "power" part.. you CHOOSE your own power.

There is small limitation, in that you will have innate "affinity" to one of the 6 types of skills, but it's not really a big deal, for two reasons.
1) you can still use the other skills, albeit at less effectiveness
2) the 6 categories are just broad groups, such as "enhancement : improve something in your self"
Once you realize what your affinity is, you can just decide to create a power and learn it.

It can be as creative as you want, and it will be as powerful as you are. You can even give it weird restrictions of rules.

A guy's power, for example "When I touched you earlier I can silently implant a bomb in you. The bomb has an x day timer that starts when I tell you the rules about this power.
You can disable the bomb by touching me and saying "I captured you".

Or another guy's, "I punch REALLY hard"

Not to mention that people who are more talented at learning Nen generally have traumatic backgrounds or otherwise lived a difficult life that essentially laid the groundwork for them to be more receptive to the fundamentals of Nen (I.e. fending for yourself in the wilderness, growing up in a garbage dump with your garbage dump friends, having your clan massacred by the garbage dump people, etc.).

When in comes to Nature vs. Nurture, HxH falls hard on the side of nurture easily 9 times out of 10.

[deuterio12]

Of course, we're all somewhat limited by our nature... but "you're too naturally talented for this to be fair" is not fair so much as enforcing mindless mediocrity. No matter what field you point to, select individuals will rise far above the rest. While others will have setbacks in their life and never have the opportunity to try. That's just reality.

The "fairness" of something isn't supposed to be based on meeting some impossible absolute average and then assessing the individual based on some voluntaristic paradigm, to grasp their... I don't know, Spirit?

Actually, it is. When most people talk about a fair world, they're indeed asking for a world where you can just claim "I want to do X" and you stand a good shot at doing it.

And that's why technology is the great equalizer, since it can be a) replicated/copied and b) passed around. With the right tech you can become a great diver, you can move faster than any olympic champion, you can fly over the olympic champion, you can share your opinion with people all around the world, you've even got plenty of newbie tiny indie tech companies managing to take on veteran titanic tech companies with just the right spirit inspiration like it was an anime plot, etc, etc.

Case in point in the pokemonverse we have pokeballs and all the related technology allowing even preschoolers to easily catch and train their own pokemon, then go around challenging anybody for pokemon battles, and as pointed out you can even find preschoolers stronger than the Elite Four themselves.

If your fairness standard is "X's totally fair as long as you were born a rare prodigy and/or managed to get in the good graces of one of the super rare X masters" noise, then it's not fair at all.

[Kitten Champion]

Actually, it is. When most people talk about a fair world, they're indeed asking for a world where you can just claim "I want to do X" and you stand a good shot at doing it.

No. You want an equal opportunity to accomplish it. The concept of merit is the basis for a fair society, not everyone getting what the want - which is functionally untenable and why we have economics and politics in the first place. That, if you were to apply for a job against other applicants you aren't given a "good shot", but the same reasonable chance that every other applicant has without bias.

Content of your character and whatnot.



And that's why technology is the great equalizer, since it can be a) replicated/copied and b) passed around. With the right tech you can become a great diver, you can move faster than any olympic champion, you can fly over the olympic champion, you can share your opinion with people all around the world, you've even got plenty of newbie tiny indie tech companies managing to take on veteran titanic tech companies with just the right spirit inspiration like it was an anime plot, etc, etc.

Technology isn't evenly distributed. Resources to produce and maintain technology are not evenly distributed. Most importantly, technical knowledge is not evenly distributed. I won't say technology isn't generally beneficial, because things like vaccines and clean water are pretty meaningful for basic standard of health among other things, but you're ignoring fairly significant disparities in access and the significance of wealth here.

Also little rose-tinted there with the corporate competition.

Besides, even if the driver can out-speed an Olympian, driving isn't exactly empty of skill nor without disparities in ability.between individuals either. You just created different skill-sets which distinguish people, which really can't be ignored. Plus, the Olympian's still an Olympian, it's kind of missing the point to suggest they're failing to utilize modern conveyance to make their lives easier and instead do all this hard work and training ****.



Case in point in the pokemonverse we have pokeballs and all the related technology allowing even preschoolers to easily catch and train their own pokemon, then go around challenging anybody for pokemon battles, and as pointed out you can even find preschoolers stronger than the Elite Four themselves.

I guess if you ignore basic logic and reality for gameplay mechanics, sure. I mean we all know Pokemon is just chalk full of verisimilitude, after all.

Though have you considered the Preschooler is simply an unparalleled genius of which none of us can compare? After all, there's no way someone who's 6 or under should have the time to train a Pokemon to powers rivalling a fully grown adult whose been doing so professionally for many times the preschooler has been alive. Presumably raising and battling Pokemon is an actual skill, and the difference between trainers isn't arbitrary. That this preschooler has Pokemon that happens to be so enormously powerful - to the point it can dwarf even the canonically most powerful trainers in the region - does seem rather unfair to me. Seriously, what would be the point for those fully grown adult trainers anymore? Clearly nothing you've done matters in the long run, because if a preschooler can outstrip you than literally anyone can without effort.

I'm fairly certain raising animals is actually pretty difficult in real life and probably isn't a task you should leave in the hands of a very small child... much less have them engage in fights with them. Which I do not advise in general. Our animals don't shoot out lightning bolts, burn hotter than the sun's corona, or launch out micro-black holes either.



If your fairness standard is "X's totally fair as long as you were born a rare prodigy and/or managed to get in the good graces of one of the super rare X masters" noise, then it's not fair at all.


My fairness standard is for effort = potential power. It's actually pretty simple really.

[Spacewolf]

Wouldn't the Culture fulfil all the criteria? As far as I can tell all of it's citizens have pretty much the same access to tech, money isn't an issue and even gender/race don't matter as you can pretty much change your body to whatever you want.

[Kitten Champion]

Wouldn't the Culture fulfil all the criteria? As far as I can tell all of it's citizens have pretty much the same access to tech, money isn't an issue and even gender/race don't matter as you can pretty much change your body to whatever you want.

I think the issue there - although I quibble with defining Superpowers when in their own context they aren't really, but superpowers don't have a set in stone definition I guess - is the Culture isn't the totality of life in the Culture's universe. Correct me if I'm wrong since I've only read a few of the novels, but the imbalance between The Culture hyperpower and those that orbit around it - or outright oppose it in some fashion - is a pretty significant aspect of the series as it's where the bulk of the conflict comes.

I do seem to recall in Use of Weapons - I think - that the Culture use their advanced physiological augmenting biotech as a soft power tool to leverage foreign leaders into compliance with their moral standards.

[Ronnoc]

Post series Codex Alera is engineered to be pretty fair.

[Forum Explorer]

No. You want an equal opportunity to accomplish it. The concept of merit is the basis for a fair society, not everyone getting what the want - which is functionally untenable and why we have economics and politics in the first place. That, if you were to apply for a job against other applicants you aren't given a "good shot", but the same reasonable chance that every other applicant has without bias.

Content of your character and whatnot.


I think the matter of it is along the lines of how hard is it to do. If you need to be an Olympic athlete to even start getting the superpowers, then it's effectively limited to a tiny portion of the population.


Post series Codex Alera is engineered to be pretty fair.

Aren't what elementals you can wield determined by genetics?

[Chromascope3D]

Aren't what elementals you can wield determined by genetics?

I've never read or heard of it but I would like to say that whether or not your powers are determined at birth shouldn't be a point of discussion. Rather, we should look at the quality disparity of the powers themselves, i.e. whether two people of equal skill but who were born with different powers still have an equal chance of winning against the other*.

*obviously It's a little more complicated than that but it's a good jumping off point.

[Forum Explorer]

I've never read or heard of it but I would like to say that whether or not your powers are determined at birth shouldn't be a point of discussion. Rather, we should look at the quality disparity of the powers themselves, i.e. whether two people of equal skill but who were born with different powers still have an equal chance of winning against the other*.

*obviously It's a little more complicated than that but it's a good jumping off point.

In a universe where everyone has powers sure. Where some people don't have powers, then it's a bit of a problem.

In this case it's quality of power. Nobility in the Codex Alerea universe is determined by your bloodline and how powerful said bloodline is. The Emperor is mountain shaking in strength, and a normal noble simply doesn't stand a chance against him. Even a powerful noble doesn't.

[Ronnoc]

Which is why I said post series. In the epilogue it is revealed that the magic system has changed so strength in crafting is determined by effort not genetics.

[Tvtyrant]

Street fighter is the most fair IMO. Anyone can shoot fireballs and smash cars with enough training (even Dan Hibiki). There are some gradations of power, but anyone with sufficient dedication can learn to be awesome (Sakura taught herself martial arts by watching tapes of Ryu).

Similarly Kenichi is very fair, with training over coming even talent.

Some iterations of Marvel are close too. There was an idea kicked around at one point that humanity had super powers granted to it by the Celestials as an experiment, and those powers show up under extreme duress. Captain America, Bruce Banner and Peter Parker were all actually just activated by being poisoned, which is why replicating their experiments are failures.

[Rynjin]

and I still disagree on One Piece. its unfair. those powers are NOT equal. no lottery power system is. I mean one of the fruit is literally "the HUMAN fruit" its only useful to Chopper because he is a DEER. if anyone else ate it, it'd be useless.

According to Oda, a human that eats the Human-Human fruit achieves true enlightenment (which basically means they're a god), so you could actually say Chopper got gypped.

And ALL Devil Fruit powers have effectively infinite potential. It's why Kuma is such a badass.

His power is "push stuff". Lame on paper, but he figured out he can push ANYTHING, including abstract metaphysical concepts. All Devil Fruits have that level of ability if the user applies it correctly.


Then why are only a few marine sailors able to use haki? The navy has quite a bit of haki masters, are they skimping in the training department? Why don't seasoned adventurers that are on the run from the navy like Robin learn it either?

Because the effort expenditure isn't worth the reward, just like any army. You need grunts; they're cheap, expendable, and easily replaced with 6 months of training at max.

Haki users need years of one on one tutoring to blossom, but we do get the greatest indicator of how "zero to hero" Haki can make you in the form of Coby: whiny cabin boyo from chapter 1 gets a bit of tender love and care from Garp and now he can rip the rudders off enemy ships with his bare hands as of last week's chapter.

But having an army of low level Haki users is basically pointless. Pouring all your effort into a couple of promising cadets will produce a soldier worth 100k others, where splitting your attention between 100 soldiers produces a batch of soldiers maybe 2-3 times stronger than normal. It's simply inefficient.



Even then at best haki only allows you to be super tough and hard hitting. But devil fruit users are the ones getting crazy utility like flying and teleportation and changing people's genders and healing and plain immortality and splicing people's souls to animate objects and whatnot. No matter how hard you train, you'll still be pretty limited to the lucky ones who got a devil fruit.

You say that, and yet I'd put 10 to 1 odds on Zoro vs any of those guys. Especially since utility like flight is basically pretty whatever; anybody can learn how to walk on air.

Still, One Piece isn't the most equal. Hunter x Hunter definitely is, as already mentioned. Anyone can learn Nen, and its power is wholly dependent on what you make of it, not just some arbitrary power metric. Gon has "more nen" than other people and still gets chumped out by people like Hisoka, who have relatively low raw power but are just INCREDIBLY DEADLY through raw skill and experience.

It says something about the setting that the fight between "guy who can make bubblegum" and "guy who can tailor create super powers to beat anyone else at will" (Hisoka vs Chrollo) essentially ends with the latter pulling out all the stops, CHEATING, and still only pulling a draw.

[deuterio12]

Because the effort expenditure isn't worth the reward, just like any army. You need grunts; they're cheap, expendable, and easily replaced with 6 months of training at max.

Haki users need years of one on one tutoring to blossom, but we do get the greatest indicator of how "zero to hero" Haki can make you in the form of Coby: whiny cabin boyo from chapter 1 gets a bit of tender love and care from Garp and now he can rip the rudders off enemy ships with his bare hands as of last week's chapter.

But having an army of low level Haki users is basically pointless. Pouring all your effort into a couple of promising cadets will produce a soldier worth 100k others, where splitting your attention between 100 soldiers produces a batch of soldiers maybe 2-3 times stronger than normal. It's simply inefficient.

You're contradicting yourself. If each grunt takes 6 months, but 2 years of haki training of promising cadet will produce a dude worth 100k grunts... Then the math clearly favors haki training of promising cadets over mass production of grunts that never accomplish anything anyway.

Just like in modern days modern armies will rather invest several years in properly training soldiers rather than a few months.

And a single modern elite soldier isn't even worth 100k grunts. If haki could be fairly learned by everybody, then grunts would be as obsolete as pikeneers are in our modern world.



You say that, and yet I'd put 10 to 1 odds on Zoro vs any of those guys.

At what? Healing people? Moving around?



Especially since utility like flight is basically pretty whatever; anybody can learn how to walk on air.

Yet Zorro doesn't despite already having faced battles where he was in big trouble due to his lack of mobility.

Not to mention everybody else that would stupidly benefit from flying. Mobility is pretty important for any aspect of combat. In particular when Devil fruit users out at sea are constantly at risk of drowning yet so few bother to learn to fly? We're talking about sink or swim fly, every devil fruit user would want to learn how to fly to avoid a watery death.

Again, look at the contrast with pokemon, where everybody and their mother can actually go out and become a pokemon trainer regardless of who they are or what they do, whereas in one piece we're supposed to believe 99,999% of seasoned adventurers and soldiers are skipping on training that would make their lifes, much, much easier, and normal everyday people are plain out of luck and at the complete mercy of devil fruit users and the super-rare haki prodigies.

[Rynjin]

You're contradicting yourself. If each grunt takes 6 months, but 2 years of haki training of promising cadet will produce a dude worth 100k grunts... Then the math clearly favors haki training of promising cadets over mass production of grunts that never accomplish anything anyway.

Just like in modern days modern armies will rather invest several years in properly training soldiers rather than a few months.

And a single modern elite soldier isn't even worth 100k grunts. If haki could be fairly learned by everybody, then grunts would be as obsolete as pikeneers are in our modern world.

Not quite. Remember, that 2 years figure is A.) For prodigies and B.) for small group tutoring under a master.

Learning Haki takes a lot of guidance and practice beyond the basics. You can't teach all your soldiers Haki through some kind of formalized training regimen; everybody learns differently, at different paces. This is not "unfair" (or at least any more than the real world is). Some people learn skills more easily than others; everyone has different talents.

There ARE countries where the entire army knows Haki (the Amazonians, and many on Skypeia showcase Observation Haki, though not Armament), but they're essentially trained from birth. Tat kind of investment when you're working on as grand a scale as the World Government isn't feasible.

It's like asking "why isn't every US soldier a Green Beret and a Navy SEAL at the same time"?



At what? Healing people? Moving around?

There's like two fruits in the whole world that can heal, and one is literally the OP OP fruit. Most fruits are combat oriented, so it really only becomes relevant to stack them against what non-Fruit users can do in combat. The answer seems to be there isn't an appreciable difference.



Yet Zorro doesn't despite already having faced battles where he was in big trouble due to his lack of mobility.

Are we sure he doesn't? He seems to have little issue these days, fighting dudes like Pica for example. He spends a good while suspended in the air in that fight, and when you can leap tall mountains in a single bound anyway, flying is just a formality.


Not to mention everybody else that would stupidly benefit from flying. Mobility is pretty important for any aspect of combat. In particular when Devil fruit users out at sea are constantly at risk of drowning yet so few bother to learn to fly? We're talking about sink or swim fly, every devil fruit user would want to learn how to fly to avoid a watery death.

And you'll notice most fruit users in the New World either CAN Air Walk or have figured out some trick using their Fruit to fly or get aorund the limitation. Doflamingo's "where does Spiderman web?" movement power, most Logias can fly, Lucci's Air Walk, Aokiji freezing the water, etc.


in one piece we're supposed to believe 99,999% of seasoned adventurers and soldiers are skipping on training that would make their lifes, much, much easier, and normal everyday people are plain out of luck and at the complete mercy of devil fruit users and the super-rare haki prodigies.

Again, it's like asking why everybody in the world doesn't learn a martial art and how to be an electrical and mechanical engineer when both would make their lives easier and they'd be more "powerful". Because there's only so much time in a life, and people are also lazy.

[Reddish Mage]

Some iterations of Marvel are close too. There was an idea kicked around at one point that humanity had super powers granted to it by the Celestials as an experiment, and those powers show up under extreme duress. Captain America, Bruce Banner and Peter Parker were all actually just activated by being poisoned, which is why replicating their experiments are failures.

Um even on that theory. Replicating the experiments should result in more successes because all you are doing is poisoning someone else and that should trigger their hidden super powers if the world is “fair” because everyone has an equal chance to access them.

Also people are entirely forgetting the other points of the OP. To be “fair” the abilities are not just equal opportunity, they are also public and everyone has the same access to the same stuff.

The first two points may work for Hunter x Hunter, by a very generous understanding of “equal opportunity,” and ignoring the secret abilities, but the last part is completely being ignored.

[Rynjin]

Trying to fit the criteria of the OP exactly is a fool's errand; they're too narrow and rely on finding a series that bucks most narrative trends.

Besides, the question is "most fair" not "find me one that fits this interpretation of what PERFECTLY fair is".

[Rater202]

Um even on that theory. Replicating the experiments should result in more successes because all you are doing is poisoning someone else and that should trigger their hidden super powers if the world is “fair” because everyone has an equal chance to access them.

Also, people are entirely forgetting the other points of the OP. To be “fair” the abilities are not just equal opportunity, they are also public and everyone has the same access to the same stuff.

The first two points may work for Hunter x Hunter, by a very generous understanding of “equal opportunity,” and ignoring the secret abilities, but the last part is completely being ignored.

The reason replicating the Hulk's accident doesn't work is becuase he's a Gamma Mutate.

Those come from the Gamma Gene, which was a side project of the Celestial Experiments. As was the "latent potential to mutate" in all of the miscellaneous mutate types, which is a factor of several non-specific genes.

the Primar focus of the experiments was a gene on the 23rd chromosome pair that, when activated, coded for a mutagen that granted greater genetic diversity and superhuman abilities. This gene is present in a good chunk of the population but is dormant. Mutants are the result of this gene itself mutating to become active.

The Gamma Gene is far rarer than the X-Gene or the gene it mutates from. Also, the powers a Gamma Mutate gets are customized to the specific mutate, even blood relations won't get the exact same powers. Banner becomes a hulking rage monster becuase he suffers from DPD and severe anger issues but his cousin Jenny becomes a Super-Strong, Uninhibited Supermodel becuase she's shy, self-conscious about her apearance, and sexually repressed. The Leader was learning disabled, not too bright even considering, and a high school drop out and very bitter about all of that. As a Gamma Mutate, he becomes one of the most intelligent people on the planet and one of the most powerful non-mutant psychics, to the point that he has to wear a steel brace lest his mighty brain snap his neck from its weight.

It should also be noted that Spider-Man is canonically partially magic, to explain why he got the same specific mutations he did.

And also Spider-Man's powers have successfully been replicated on a mass scale(Spider-Flu.) It's just that the people who did so had an ulterior motive.

[Reddish Mage]

Trying to fit the criteria of the OP exactly is a fool's errand; they're too narrow and rely on finding a series that bucks most narrative trends.

Besides, the question is "most fair" not "find me one that fits this interpretation of what PERFECTLY fair is".

Sure you can do your own thing, but even if you are only looking for what is "most fair" according to the first criteria of "equal opportunity," I doubt that you'll find it without looking for a series that bucks all the narrative trends.

Something like Marvel is squarely in that camp, and just giving it a new shine by noting that ANYONE can theoretically get powers doesn't change that. Its still hardly equal, nor is it fair who gets the powers and who does not.

You are also not going to find it in Hunter x Hunter, unless your universe is solely anime and the big two comics publishers. I haven't seen anything to suggest disabled people, impoverished people, and the otherwise disadvantaged can reasonably learn Haki.

However, if you are going to reject the OP entirely, why not come up with your own definition of "fair." I don't see why powers can't be "fair" if they are perfectly random, so long as their is a perfectly equal chance of who gets it, there has to be series on that premise.


The reason replicating the Hulk's accident doesn't work is becuase he's a Gamma Mutate. It should also be noted that Spider-Man is canonically partially magic, to explain why he got the same specific mutations he did.

Care to tie the discussion? In this case, this would pretty much prove the Marvel universe isn't that fair, although the posters idea is that it was that, there is a version of the Marvel universe where all those powers came simply from humanities inherent superpower gifts from the Celestials. In your version, the powers are clearly unfair since you have to be a mutate or magic for poison to trigger the powers.

[Rater202]

I think you misunderstood something.

Mutate is the term for anybody who has Super-Powers that they weren't inherently born with--Basically, anybody who isn't a Mutant or Inhuman.

The Hulk is a specific kind of mutate, a Gamma Mutate with a specific gene that lets him get superpowers from Gamma Radiation. These powers can't be easil replicated.

However, it is known that you can transplant the Gamma Gene into someone and use genetic engineering to replicate a specific mutate spowers--Prodigy was given custum made powers based on the Leader's.

Other Powers, once developed, can be replicated in others using the mutated DNA of the subject--literally, all of Manhattan was given Spider-Man's powers once. It wouldn't be that hard to remove the (Intentional) negative side effects of the Spider-Flu and then everyone can be Spider-Man.

Anyone can be affected by Goblin Serum, Super-Soldier Serum, The Connors Formula, OZ, Mothervine or bonding with a symbiote and between the Gamma Gene, The X-Gene, Inhuman Ancestry, and Inherant Mutant Potential most people have the potential to get super-human powers when exposed to the right substances. Or just naurally occuring. And anyone can be implanted with Horton Cells.

It's just, whether that particular method will work for you and what powers you'll is a crap shoot.

That's fairer than most settings.

Spider-Man being partially magic likewise isn't why he got powers, it's why he got the powers that he did. Instead of radiation powers. Or Cancer Powers. Or anything else you'd imagine coming from radiaactive spider-venom.

Two other people got powers from the same spider... Though we don't talk about The Thousand very much.

[Reddish Mage]

I think you misunderstood something.

Mutate is the term for anybody who has Super-Powers that they weren't inherently born with--Basically, anybody who isn't a Mutant or Inhuman.

...most people have the potential to get super-human powers when exposed to the right substances. Or just naurally occuring. And anyone can be implanted with Horton Cells.

It's just, whether that particular method will work for you and what powers you'll is a crap shoot.

That's fairer than most settings.

My mistakes, I thought mutate was the term for people for whom the X-gene was suppressed or otherwise had some special genetic potential that had to be altered and brought out.

Still, just because anyone can theoretically get powers with exposure to the right substance or whatever, doesn't mean that this substance is easy to get a hold of.

In fact, all of these substances have in common that they are rare or only appear temporarily for a couple of issues. The moment anyone can simply walk into a clinic and come out with a superpower in Marvel (and I mean a regular clinic, not something run by AIM that turns them into a mind-controlled slave or something) is the moment when superpowers lose all meaning.

You might as well say One Piece is fair, since anyone could eat the Devil Fruit.

If your universe is Marvel and DC, maybe you can argue Marvel is more fair (DC heroes tend to be perfect people that get powers awarded for being born or for being perfect). However, DC pushes the notion that non-powered people like Batman and Lex Luthor can stand as equals even next to the cosmic-tier heroes and villains (find me the Marvel ordinary humans that can do that!).

However, I keep mentioning the literature universe is very big. You have Sci-Fi stories that may count, as well as obscure superhuman stories to consider. There are stories where everyone actually has a superpower, or is magic or something. I seem to recall "The Color of Magic" has this as the premise.

Also here's is a list of stories with the premise everyone is a super (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EveryoneIsASuper).

The popular anime and comics are just not going to cut it.

[Rater202]

Well, Doctor Hayes(Grandmother of Molly Hayes, of the Runaways) has a method of making Artificial Mutants with identical powersets despite not being related by blood--having iven herself, her daughter, her adopted son, and a number of house cats identical telepathic abillities with her granddaughter, daughter of her blood and adopted children*, developed powerful psionic strength and toughness instead.

So mass producing super-powers is possible. It's just a simple matter of finding the right person.

She'd probably have started selling psychic powers if she hadn't been arrested for cloning supervillains(She did not cope well with the death of her Gene and Alice)

*Believe it or not, this is better than the alternative: Originally it was implied they were blood relatives instead of merely adopted relatives.

But my point is that, in terms of actually getting powers, just about everyone in Marvel has a fair shot at it.

You can't take two steps ioff the beaten path in NYC without stumbling into something that'll trigger your latent mutant potential or otherwise give you superhuman powers. NYC in Marvel is basically mostly superhumans at this point.

[Chromascope3D]

You are also not going to find it in Hunter x Hunter

There are actually 5 differently-abled nen users in HxH.

Gido, Riehlvelt, and Sadaso are antagonists in the Heavens Arena Arc, and are all missing body parts or are crippled in some way, yet are still formidable opponents when the heroes first face them, and while Gon does body Gido in their second matchup, it isn't because he's crippled, it's because he and the others didn't train at all and decided to rest on their laurels expecting easy wins. Although, they were already competent fighters before losing their limbs and learning nen, so maybe that's up in the air regarding your point.

Meanwhile, Shoot is one of the main characters of the Chimera Ant arc; he's missing his right arm, but he makes up for it with his hatsu (three independently floating hands and a floating cage that can temporarily trap opponents body parts), however, it isn't known at what point he lost his arm, maybe as a child, maybe after becoming a hunter, so maybe I could give you that one too.

However, there's Komugi, who is not only blind but is also an idiot outside of her skill in gungi, and whose dedication was so thorough that she vowed that she would take her life if she lost a game, and because of this she unconsciously gained a hatsu that allowed her to come up with ever evolving strategies to win the game. Would she ever win a fight? No, but she doesn't need to, because she loves exactly one thing and that's Gungi (and Dear Leader, ofc), and her power allows her to excel at it even further.

I feel like when we focus on the combat capabilities of superpowers we ignore the fact that not everyone wants to be a superhero or even just a regular hero. Some people just wanna be a rockstar or a ditch digger, and the reason I consider HxH to be fair is precisely because the power system allows for these people to use the same superpowers for non combat functions that the protagonists use solely for punching each other.

[Rynjin]

Hell, one of the major recurring characters of the series has a Nen power that is "Summon a Stand that gives supernaturally relaxing massages", so it's not even limited to background characters or hypotheticals. Yeah, she has good Enhancement Nen too, but the fact that as a pro Hunter her Hatsu is so non-combat oriented is really telling.

[The Fury]

I've actually thought quite a lot about my answer, because in truth it's not really an easy question. Superpowered universes by their nature tend to be pretty unfair and tend to come in two flavors. One: you're either lucky and you have cool powers or you're not. Two: if you have no powers there's a decent chance that you might get powers, but you don't get a choice in the matter and your powers might be terrible.

As far as fitting the requirements set by the OP, the best example I can think of is whatever universe your D&D game, (3.0 and onward,) is set in. Any ability that exists can be had if you want to put in the character class levels, feats, skills or whatever to get it.

In practical sense though, it's still not all that fair because there's always something like a Lich or a Dragon or something that can one-shot you no matter how strong you get. That and your DM will ultimately have the final word on whether or not you can have the powers you're after.

The second is the universe of Avatar the Last Airbender/Legend of Korra. I know it's violating at least two of the rules of the OP right off the bat. Bending is hereditary, so for example, you'll never be a Waterbender if you have no Waterbenders in your heritage, (unless you're the Avatar.) Not all Bending can be learned by all people, so for example, an Earthbender can never learn Firebending, (again, the Avatar is the exception.) On top of that, there's a clear person with the best power set-- the aforementioned Avatar. Also, if you're just a normal person, Harmonic Convergence aside, you'll never be able to bend any element.

Though in a practical sense, this universe is actually very fair. Even if a random Earthbender can't learn Firebending, so what? With hard work and training they can still be pretty impressive. For that matter, by honing one's skills any one person can give the Avatar a run for their money. Even considering you might be a person that can never Bend any element, it's still possible to pick up Chi-Blocking like Tai-Lee, build gadgets like Asami, or just be clever like Sokka. Then there's the insight that being spiritually attuned can get you in that universe, which unlike Bending elements seems more of a question of enlightenment and discipline. This suggests that just about anyone can learn it. So yeah, actually a pretty fair universe... unless you're a cabbage merchant.