Linking Hit Die Size to Race and not Class

[lylsyly]

Just what the title says ...

Has anyone tried this? Example:

Gnome and Halfling d6
Elves and Humans (half elves too) d8
Dwarves and Half Orcs d10

ect .......

[MoleMage]

Starfinder uses a mix of this and class hit dice, which seems to work. The issue you'd face is that certain races will be just better for every role. Want to be a wizard? Dwarf. Fighter? Dwarf. Cleric? Dwarf. Especially when combined with the racial bonus to Con, Dwarf becomes the best option for everything that doesn't depend on Charisma for spellcasting (and honestly, even with the -1 to spell DC, +2 HP per level over human is tempting, if I don't need the skill point and feat). The consequence of this is that every character is going to have similar hit point averages, which is a buff to casters (especially d4 casters) overall but impacts martial and skill classes marginally and not always up (barbarians suffer most for this).

Starfinder mitigates this by giving larger weight to the class portion (both HP and Stamina calculate by class, only HP by race, with Stamina being arguably more important) and by ensuring that races also give a better variety of attribute bonuses.

Tl;Dr version: it makes high hit dice races too valuable for every class without some other bonuses to compensate low hit dice races, and benefits low hit dice classes much more than high.

[noob]

dwarves while not necessarily the best option for every caster still often makes a solid base for a cleric or wizard due to their racial bonus to saves against spells and to their constitution which helps with fortitude saves.
Giving them higher hit dice will make dwarf considered more often as a solid choice in low optimization games for most classes that gets targeted a lot (everybody wants to get rid of the supports the opponents have because they are often very helpful for those they support).
gnomes and halflings will then be nearly played only by people who have the intent to hide or use their size for tactical advantages due to how they are going to be frailer than other options.
Humans will stay played very often since a feat is well worth getting two less hit point per level(relatively to playing a dwarf who not only have on average one more hit point per level due to the hit die size then one more hit point per level due to their constitution)
So the effect will not be very big except that support choices like wizards or clerics are going to be dwarves more often and be a bit harder to kill(or just play human and be as much tough as before).
If you like that change know that while not game breaking it will make dwarves a bit more common and make barbarians
a bit less tough.

[lylsyly]

Right now it is just a thought. I have already considered the Dwarf and Barbarian issues.

Perhaps have 2 HD per level, one based on race and an additional one based on class. Hmmm ...

Say a halfling gets d4 as her racial HD and stick to traditional class HD so a halfling ranger gets 1d4 for racial and 1d8 for class ... gives us 2 hp minimum, 7 for average, and 12 for a max.

Do this at only first level and it shouldn't effect much. It would give starting characters a boost (esp with deadly DMs like me). This is what got me started on this train of thought. I killed a 1st level halfling sorcerer Sunday with a one-shot from an arrow.

[Nifft]

I did a thing in this direction waaaaaaaay back when 3.5e had that new edition smell.

Basically, every PC got 1st level HP based on class and race, but race was significantly more important at very low levels.

As you gained levels, your class HP came to dominate your race HP, so a level 20 Barbarian was a badass no matter what race -- which is as it should be IMHO, since level 20 in a class means you have significant experience, and your origin should be a footnote in comparison to your accomplishments.

[lylsyly]

I did a thing in this direction waaaaaaaay back when 3.5e had that new edition smell.

Basically, every PC got 1st level HP based on class and race, but race was significantly more important at very low levels.

As you gained levels, your class HP came to dominate your race HP, so a level 20 Barbarian was a badass no matter what race -- which is as it should be IMHO, since level 20 in a class means you have significant experience, and your origin should be a footnote in comparison to your accomplishments.

Did you give them Racial points all the way?

[Nifft]

Did you give them Racial points all the way?

Only at 1st level, and it was a fixed quantity.

4 for Halflings
6 for Elves & Gnomes
8 for Humans & Half-Elves
10 for Dwarves & Half-Orcs

That replaced getting full HP for your 1st hit die.


If I were doing it again, I'd probably follow the 4e model -- start with your Con score (not bonus), add the racial HP, and then add your class HP (fixed per level, as low as 2/level for Wizards and as high as 7/level for Barbarians).

[lylsyly]

Guess I'll have to drag out my copy of 4E. Been gathering dust on the shelf since back when. We played for about a month then went back to 3.5. Did the same with 5E. Of course we are a bit eclectic. I just ran a Renegade Nuns with Guns one-shot. ;D

[Nifft]

Guess I'll have to drag out my copy of 4E. Been gathering dust on the shelf since back when. We played for about a month then went back to 3.5. Did the same with 5E. Of course we are a bit eclectic. I just ran a Renegade Nuns with Guns one-shot. ;D

4e ignored race, except insofar as race gave a Con bonus.

What 4e did was give a really big chunk of HP at level 1, and then smaller increments at every level thereafter.

4e did NOT give you a 20x Con bonus at level 20, for example -- most of your HP came from your class, which seems quite sensible to me, since I think at level 20 your exceptional training & experience should outweigh whatever you got for free at birth.

[lylsyly]

4e ignored race, except insofar as race gave a Con bonus.

What 4e did was give a really big chunk of HP at level 1, and then smaller increments at every level thereafter.

4e did NOT give you a 20x Con bonus at level 20, for example -- most of your HP came from your class, which seems quite sensible to me, since I think at level 20 your exceptional training & experience should outweigh whatever you got for free at birth.

I reviewed it this morning. Bleh. I have a DM turn coming up (EDIT: Using my SRD - Rules). Going to try the following:

Racial hit die (max at 1st level/Average rounded down thereafter) + the Average of class HD rounded down + CON bonus

Examples with CON 14, class=fighter

Halfling and Gnome d4: 1st = 12, after 1st = 9 per level
Elves and 1/2 Elves d6: 1st = 13, after 1st = 10 per level
Humans and Dwarves d8: 1st = 15, after first = 11 per level
Half Orc d10 = 1st = 17, after first = 12 per level

(My half orcs lose 2 points on CHA and INT and WIS, should help keep them melee oriented)

I have ALWAYS believed (since 1976) that there should be a racial component to HP (and I don't mean CON bonuses).

Also, I am eliminating even more die rolls from my rules (make that campaign march mister). And improving survivability.

My style is deadly. Tucker's Kobolds ain't nothing, I gots Tucker's Ogres going on. ;D

[Nifft]

It's presumably too late, but another idea might be to roll both the race HD and class HD at every level, and you get whichever one is bigger.

Halflings might get d4

Elf & Gnome might get d6

Human & Half-Elf might get d8

Dwarf & Half-Orc might get d10


At every level, roll both race and class HD, and keep one of them. Thus the beefy races have a statistical advantage -- but a Halfling Barbarian will still roll a d12 every level, so he's not necessarily a push-over. It's just that Half-Orc Barbarians tend to roll much higher on their backup die.

Half-Orc Wizard suddenly looks interesting.

[lylsyly]

Nope, it's not too late. I have about a month before I start DMing. There are 6 of us and we all take our turns in a fairly strict rotation (barring RL issues of course).

Actually, I like your breakdown of the races better. I could solve part of my problem by just giving max Class HP at every level. But as I said earlier, I have always thought there should be some tie in to race.

A Halfling and a Half-Orc (or Dwarf if you prefer) both get d10 for being a fighter? Naw, really doesn't work for me. Now that I am semi retired (a recent event) I have more time to delve into such issues.

[Nifft]

A Halfling and a Half-Orc (or Dwarf if you prefer) both get d10 for being a fighter? Naw, really doesn't work for me. Now that I am semi retired (a recent event) I have more time to delve into such issues.

In the two-dice thing I posted, the idea would be that a Halfling Fighter rolls 1d4 and 1d10 at each level, and keeps the highest result -- which I'll call max(1d4,1d10) for simplicity.

In contrast a Half-Orc Fighter rolls max(2d10) and keeps the highest result -- which is statistically better than max(1d4,1d10), but never higher than 1d10.

A Halfling Wizard rolls max(2d4) at each level. A human Wizard rolls max(1d8,1d4). An Elf Rogue rolls max(2d6); a Dwarf Rogue rolls max(1d10,1d6).


Race would be a component at every level.

[lylsyly]

In the two-dice thing I posted, the idea would be that a Halfling Fighter rolls 1d4 and 1d10 at each level, and keeps the highest result -- which I'll call max(1d4,1d10) for simplicity.

In contrast a Half-Orc Fighter rolls max(2d10) and keeps the highest result -- which is statistically better than max(1d4,1d10), but never higher than 1d10.

A Halfling Wizard rolls max(2d4) at each level. A human Wizard rolls max(1d8,1d4). An Elf Rogue rolls max(2d6); a Dwarf Rogue rolls max(1d10,1d6).


Race would be a component at every level.

Actually, this might work. I am going to play with the dice (I love rolling dice, once generated an entire Traveller Sector including EVERY moon, ect. by hand, total was ~8000 rolls). See how it plays out. May even use 2 systems in the same game (the group is used to me experimenting), I can always retro it if there is a disparity numbers wise after a few levels.

This is such a basic mechanic in the game that I am surprised more folks haven't chimed in. Especially to tell me I can't do it ;D

[Nifft]

Note that my bias is that class should be more important than race, and that's probably why my spit-ball proposal had race dice capped at d10 when class dice go up to d12.

If you think race should be equally important, then you should probably distribute the races up to d12 -- unless you want Barbarians and Warblades and such to be extra-special, which would be nice for them since having the most HP is kinda their thing.

If you think race should be MORE important than class -- which I don't, but hey, it's legal to not have my opinion -- then you might want to start race HD at d6 and then go up to d12. You could even use my table and just bump each die one size.

[lylsyly]

I don't think race should be more important, I just believe that race should play some role. The problem is coming up with a way to implement it without it becoming a "everyone wants to be a half-orc' situation. Which actually may not be possible.

[Morphic tide]

As a pseudo-gestalt setup founded on how frequently LAs on monsters are reasonable without RHD included, I'd make it so that RHD is always equal to or greater than class-based hit dice (essentially, if you have more class levels than RHD, you gain an RHD), and then all HD converge one "step" and take the better result. This does confine the character by their origin, but in a way that makes sense and causes durability to be nice and inflated, with RHD getting a reduced effect on effective level. Of course, you then are shoehorned into the role offered by your RHD, but that's honestly largely fine, given the stereotype-dominated genre and low need for optimization.

It would need to be combined with some hefty rules adjustments, or a bundle of clauses to cover for the results of assumptions (such as classes that scale with a score often having deficiencies in what the score offers, like Totemist being a d8 class as a facetanking frontliner or Wizards having 2 skill points per level). Likely a mix of the two, as segmenting the variant rules would be useful to DMs who may prefer the base math for NPCs to stay the same, or only use it as an alternative to the baseline Monster Character rules without puzzling out huge chunks of differences in treatment.

One of the major dynamics is that you lose some characteristics as you acquire levels that have sufficiently bad chassis. A Dragon acquiring Sorcerer levels would be losing BAB and skill points (and saves, if a "medium" progression is added for this purpose), but that's the price the Dragon pays for gaining spellcasting that way. The associated LA alterations would likely be best handled by a set of lookup tables that create the relevant information, controlling for the quality of RHD as part of the setup.

[lylsyly]

Talked to the Group last night. I am going to run my most restrictive set of rules.

Levels 1 - 3 Get your Class HD + Your Racial HD (Max at 1st level per normal rule).
Levels 4 -20 Class HD or Racial HD (whichever is higher)

CON bonuses apply as usual.

Half Orc Wizards wont be a problem as there are no Clerics/Druids/Sorcerers/Wizards allowed.

A good boost at lower levels when you really need it and perhaps a boost throughout your career. As I've said, the group is used to me experimenting and if it becomes a problem we will just retro it back to normal, we've done it before.

I appreciate the input gentle beings.

[Nifft]

Cool, glad you came up with something usable.

Let us know how it worked out in practice.

[XionUnborn01]

You could implement an adjustment for HD based on race and class. Something like this:

Base HD is 1d4. Every +1 is a size increase, every-1 is a decrease. Classes can't reduce the HD size of it's already below the base of 1d4.

Halflings and gnomes give +0
Humans and elves give +1
Dwarves and orcs give +2

Wizard gives -1
Fighter gives +1
Rogue gives +0

This way every character can be unique. A party of rogues can have wildly varying hitpoints if there's a Gnome, Human, Dwarf, and a Pixie (-2).

[lightningcat]

Iirc, the d20 Farscape book linked race to hit dice, and had the class provide a spell-point like energy pool. Although some classes did provide added hit points. Away from books at the moment, or i could give more info.