Vampire question (opinion/rules question)

[orlondok]

I believe I am seeking more of an opinion on one of the weaknesses of a Vampire and how it should be handled ...
Weakness in question is that "Vampires are unable to cross running water"
I am designing a vampire castle/crypt/dungeon and was wondering ...
Should I be worried about a well which is fed by an underground stream?
Maybe the stream would have to be FAR underground?

Opinions / rule clarifications please ...

[Telonius]

Yeah, it's not particularly well-defined in the rules, so it's really DM's call. Personally I'd say that if there's a bridge or something else solid above the water, the vampire can cross with no difficulty. The main idea (in many real-world vampire stories on which the D&D version is based) is that moving water is supposed to purify things, so something as evil as a vampire would be wiped away by it. They can't ford a river under their own power. They have to be carried over somehow - whether that means their coffin is carried by somebody else who fords it, put on a boat as they sail over it, or walk on a bridge spanning it. IMO, the D&D version wouldn't be bothered by an underground stream. Flying over ... eh, that's tricky. I'd probably allow it, if the Vampire had a means of flight (can cast the Fly spell for instance, or has Fell Flight as a Warlock, or is a Raptoran vampire, or something like that). As long as he's not touching the water, he's fine.

[MrSandman]

Yeah, it's not particularly well-defined in the rules, so it's really DM's call. Personally I'd say that if there's a bridge or something else solid above the water, the vampire can cross with no difficulty. The main idea (in many real-world vampire stories on which the D&D version is based) is that moving water is supposed to purify things, so something as evil as a vampire would be wiped away by it. They can't ford a river under their own power. They have to be carried over somehow - whether that means their coffin is carried by somebody else who fords it, put on a boat as they sail over it, or walk on a bridge spanning it. IMO, the D&D version wouldn't be bothered by an underground stream. Flying over ... eh, that's tricky. I'd probably allow it, if the Vampire had a means of flight (can cast the Fly spell for instance, or has Fell Flight as a Warlock, or is a Raptoran vampire, or something like that). As long as he's not touching the water, he's fine.

I second that. I'd rule it the same way.

[flappeercraft]

Yeah, it's not particularly well-defined in the rules, so it's really DM's call. Personally I'd say that if there's a bridge or something else solid above the water, the vampire can cross with no difficulty. The main idea (in many real-world vampire stories on which the D&D version is based) is that moving water is supposed to purify things, so something as evil as a vampire would be wiped away by it. They can't ford a river under their own power. They have to be carried over somehow - whether that means their coffin is carried by somebody else who fords it, put on a boat as they sail over it, or walk on a bridge spanning it. IMO, the D&D version wouldn't be bothered by an underground stream. Flying over ... eh, that's tricky. I'd probably allow it, if the Vampire had a means of flight (can cast the Fly spell for instance, or has Fell Flight as a Warlock, or is a Raptoran vampire, or something like that). As long as he's not touching the water, he's fine.

I third this. I agree so much with this that I thought that was the default interpretation and never thought twice about it.

[BowStreetRunner]

...As long as he's not touching the water, he's fine.
While I had never thought about it that way, it does bring to mind the scene from Lord of the Rings where the Ringwraiths are swept away by the river. I wonder if Tolkien consciously borrowed the imagery here.

I seem to recall that both Greek and Asian versions of vampire myths had this limitation, but could be carried across the water in a boat or walk over a bridge. They could even pass through the water when it was not moving.

[The Viscount]

I agree with Telonius's interpretation. Because a vampire can be carried across, it's pretty clear that the restriction is just against coming in contact with the water.

It's worth noting that if you have to interact with the stream itself, a vampire with a swim speed does not have any water vulnerability. Applying the amphibious template before vampire is a simple way to gain said swim speed.

[Saintheart]

Pretty much agreed. In the original Dracula story by Bram Stoker, Dracula certainly doesn't have any problems getting across the English Channel to London (SPOILERS!!) when his coffin is being transported by ship. If that isn't a way around the restriction on crossing water I don't know what is.

It's not just vampires, either - the old legend of Sleepy Hollow originally had that the Headless Horseman couldn't cross a particular bridge. In the original version of the story, Ichabod Crane manages to get away from the Horseman by crossing that bridge ... and the Horseman then kills him by throwing his own flaming head at him.

[Bronk]

I would rule that the running water has to be in the general vicinity of the vampire, and visible, in order to prevent its movement. For example, the underground stream wouldn't be a bother if it was under more rock.

I would rule that walking over bridges is a no, because really, who fords a river while carrying a coffin? Any crossing of a river or whatnot would necessitate the whole 'carrying the coffin' thing.

I would also rule that flying over the water is out too, since vampires can easily take the form of a bat or use gaseous form to fly, with no exception listed in their weakness.

All of those barriers to the vampire is the reason they're usually stuck in one place in stories, in their big castle with a bevy of loyal servants and spawn, and in DnD it's a bonus feature to allow PCs to escape encounters.

[Psyren]

I'm honestly fine with "fly across" even if it means the weakness barely comes up. Otherwise you get a bat that is smacking into invisible walls all over the countryside. It also means that when you reduce one to gaseous form and they have to find their coffin, that they might need a ridiculously circuitous route to get there. I don't see either of those happening in folklore, nor do i think they were intended.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm honestly fine with "fly across" even if it means the weakness barely comes up. Otherwise you get a bat that is smacking into invisible walls all over the countryside. It also means that when you reduce one to gaseous form and they have to find their coffin, that they might need a ridiculously circuitous route to get there. I don't see either of those happening in folklore, nor do i think they were intended.In fact, while 'vampires' of some sort or other appear in the myth and folklore of cultures all over the world (every continent except Antarctica), there probably never was a single vampire legend that had all of the powers/weaknesses of the D&D vampire. The Greek and Chinese people who built graveyards on islands to keep vampires trapped on the islands didn't believe in flying or shape-changing vampires at all. So if it seems extremely odd to have a weakness for crossing running water in a creature that flies, just remember that it's basically a legacy weakness left over from an earlier iteration of the legend.

[orlondok]

Very good discussion ... thanx much for all the cool feedback !!!

[Rijan_Sai]

There was a long topic about this a few months ago... IIRC, it was never completely decided one way or another about vampires flying and such... although it was pretty well agreed that underground water would not bother a vampire.

IMO, the vampire's "inability" to cross running water is not some "supernatural, invisible wall" that only affects the vampire, but more of an instinctive aversion due to the fact that running water is more "acidic" then acid or Holy Water! (Seriously! Acid and HW have specified amounts of HP damage that vampires have no resistance to, but running water will completely destroy one in only 3 rounds (~18 seconds) of immersion!)

I also wouldn't have a vampire be bothered by any water that didn't cover a "significant" portion of them... at least up to the shins. (Getting their feet wet probably won't bother them, even "running" water in a drainage ditch; "significant amounts of water" do differ to something that gets dissolved by it, though.)

[Psyren]

IMO, the vampire's "inability" to cross running water is not some "supernatural, invisible wall" that only affects the vampire, but more of an instinctive aversion due to the fact that running water is more "acidic" then acid or Holy Water! (Seriously! Acid and HW have specified amounts of HP damage that vampires have no resistance to, but running water will completely destroy one in only 3 rounds (~18 seconds) of immersion!)

I like this explanation - "running water feels like super-acid so I'd rather avoid it" explains their behavior and the mechanics far better than any kind of supernatural barrier. I would be pretty uneasy crossing a bridge over acid too but I'd do it.

[Saintheart]

I like this explanation - "running water feels like super-acid so I'd rather avoid it" explains their behavior and the mechanics far better than any kind of supernatural barrier. I would be pretty uneasy crossing a bridge over acid too but I'd do it.

Soooo are we saying Nicki Minaj is a vampire (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JipHEz53sU)? *b-boom tss*

[Psyren]

Soooo are we saying Nicki Minaj is a vampire (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JipHEz53sU)? *b-boom tss*

But that's the opp... and it's not even spel...

*head asplode*

[Bronk]

There was a long topic about this a few months ago... IIRC, it was never completely decided one way or another about vampires flying and such... although it was pretty well agreed that underground water would not bother a vampire.

IMO, the vampire's "inability" to cross running water is not some "supernatural, invisible wall" that only affects the vampire, but more of an instinctive aversion due to the fact that running water is more "acidic" then acid or Holy Water! (Seriously! Acid and HW have specified amounts of HP damage that vampires have no resistance to, but running water will completely destroy one in only 3 rounds (~18 seconds) of immersion!)

I also wouldn't have a vampire be bothered by any water that didn't cover a "significant" portion of them... at least up to the shins. (Getting their feet wet probably won't bother them, even "running" water in a drainage ditch; "significant amounts of water" do differ to something that gets dissolved by it, though.)

That seems to be a difference between Pathfinder vampires and DnD vampires... the Pathfinder version lacks the line about being unable to cross running water.

[Saintheart]

But that's the opp... and it's not even spel...

*head asplode*

Well, at least your head got that boom-da-boom-boom, boom-da-boom-boom ... :smallbiggrin:

[Raven777]

Weakness in question is that "Vampires are unable to cross running water"My groups always handled it as vampires being unable to cross running water in a way that makes physical contact with the water. Basically, we always took it to mean they cannot step, wade or swim in it. This means underground streams, bridges and boats are just fine, as well as any stream small enough that they could just step or jump over it, or even, for the magically inclined, once they can fly over things that limit pretty much goes away entirely.


Pretty much agreed. In the original Dracula story by Bram Stoker, Dracula certainly doesn't have any problems getting across the English Channel to London (SPOILERS!!) when his coffin is being transported by ship. If that isn't a way around the restriction on crossing water I don't know what is.It gets even better: Dracula is the original rules lawyer. His curse stipulated that every day he had to rest upon the land of his burial... so he packed a bunch of crates full of his graveyard's dirt and had everything moved to London alongside his own coffin on top. This is totally a thing players would do, yet Bram Stoker wrote it like that from the start.

[BowStreetRunner]

I had completely forgotten the section under Vampire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) Weaknesses where it states "immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion." It's under Slaying a Vampire right after the part where it states they are unable to cross running water. I suppose the inability to cross running water makes a lot more sense in that context.