DM PCs Y/N?

[Chalkarts]

I’m trying to get two groups going.
The current pool of players is too large for 1 group.
If I split the pool in half and play a character to fill their ranks they’ll be able to handle the module at their base difficulty.

Do you play in games you run? I was going to make the character low int/wis so he’d be useless for perception and insight. I want the players to be in control of all adventure progress but don’t want them to get slaughter in battle because they don’t have the numbers.

Opinions?

[Naanomi]

I prefer no, but if yes then players should run them top to bottom

[DMThac0]

DMPCs are a difficult beast even in the best of scenarios. Short answer is no, DMPCs aren't a good thing in an adventure.

Long answer:

I use NPCs with more defined roles, or temporary "on screen" characters. I have a 2 year old game in a world I call Lorimir, and in it I have created 5 NPCs that have become members of my groups party at various intervals. They are integral to the story when they show up, helping further the plot or give guidance to the players.

-Aerik, he's the patron of the group, having brought them together in the first place. He acts as their information broker, he's helped them get in good with the king and he even introduced them to another NPC who helped them out.
-Hurri, Aerik's friend, was the healer for the group when they first started. He helped them on their first mission, but he's got perpetual bad luck and wound up getting caught by their enemy. He showed up later to inform the players that Aerik would be missing for a while on a secret mission.
-Tik and Tak, gnome siblings and inventors. They're walking accidents but helped the party fend off 3 giant lycanthrope skeletons that were terrorizing a city.
-Ari, an Ancient Gold Dragon. He helped the party when a super powerful cult tried to abduct a party's sorcerer. He's also currently helping them guard a caravan that is being assaulted by denizens of the Elemental Plane of Earth.

Each of these NPCs have stat blocks, they have skills, etc. almost equivalent to a character sheet. The difference is they are not permanent members of the party, they only show up to help with the situation at hand and then wander off. DMPCs as permanent party members are much, much better handled as giving the party a henchman. You, as DM, have way too much on your plate to both play a party member and run the world. If the players really do need help with what is going on, give them tools, don't give them the DM as an ally.

[Tawmis]

I typically do not play as a character.

Although my previous campaign, my party was in love with one of the NPCs I had created, and dragged him around ... but he had no real skills.

He just offered suggestions (which were not always correct, because he was a little touched in the head).

[Rynjin]

Hard, HARD N on that.

Nobody likes a GMPC. Even if your players say they're fine with it and you intentionally play them down, every success will feel like stolen glory.

NPCs? Sure, throw out a few that rolls with the party every now and then with some defined role and built in time limit for them to leave and you're good. Just don't let them overstay their welcome.

[Randomthom]

I run a campaign where numbers vary between DM+2 up to DM+4. I have a character who can drop in & out as needed when numbers are low. I make sure it is mechanically simple to play and it generally doesn't function outside of combat unless suggested/directed by the other PCs.

I think if you stick to those 2 core concepts (simple to play & passive as a decision maker) then it can work. Generally the martial classes work best for this, no or limited spell lists are the best way to avoid complexity, you want to be thinking about DM things, not what your character might to in any given situation.

Alternatively, you can just go the extra step have an additional "floating character" who you provide the personality for but the PCs actually play.

[Arelai]

How many players is too few? How many do you have? A 3 man party does just fine usually.

[Laserlight]

No. Adjust the combats, or more likely allow them more rests, and they can probably do fine with one less PC. Or you can just make the monsters a little more fragile.

If you want to run the module exactly as written and feel sure they need another body, ask one of the more experienced players to handle two characters. A pair of martials isn't hard.

[MaxWilson]

How many players is too few? How many do you have? A 3 man party does just fine usually.

I second the consensus. DM PCs (as opposed to NPCs: allies or henchmen partially under DM control when needed) are both hard to run and bad for fun. Nobody wants to watch the DM roll dice against himself in combat or petition himself in dramatic scenes.

NPCs that join the party at times, and who may or may not have their own agendas, can be quite fun. But that's not what I think of when I hear "DM PC." A friendly NPC may ally with PBS to accomplish a mutual goal, but he doesn't have plot armor in the same way a PC might, he might or might not keep some information private about his goals and abilities, and there is no social contract at the table requiring players to treat him a certain way. You can murder Prince Ruprecht the NPC because you suspect him of spying and the DM will not call foul or get upset, he'll just play out the consequences with you. (Even if Ruptecht really was a spy there will be consequences to his murder.)

In this specific case, if I were the OP I'd offer the players a henchman (basic low-level fighter) whom they can hire for, say, a double share of the treasure and a half share of the XP. Then it's up to them if they hire him or not.

[CharonsHelper]

A true DMPC is virtually always bad.

The only time I've seen anything like it done okay was when my brother-in-law ran a cleric for his kids. It was the same character he'd played when I'd started the campaign, and they wanted to keep playing later when I went home, but it was basically just a heal-bot because his kids were playing a barbarian, rogue, and alchemist and they needed someone to keep them alive.

Basically 'his' character just played Band-Aid with the occasional buff and mediocre melee. And again - at the time they were ages 10-14ish (maybe 11-15, I can't remember).

I'm not sure that that really qualifies as a DMPC though. It was more like a henchman who happened to be the same level.

[Gryndle]

I have always played with a DMPC.

There are a few secrets to running a satisfying DMPC that doesn't overshadow or step on player's toes.
1st: there has to be an element of trust and maturity between all players. IF not, then a DMPC isn't going to be the only problem.
2nd: run it exactly as a PC-- don't give it any breaks that you wouldn't give anyone else, and don't single it out for limits that you wouldn't place on anyone else.
3rd: Let the character be organic. But NEVER let the DMPC be the center of the story.
4th: when in doubt, fall back to the Platinum Rule: Don't be a ****.

as for WHY have a DMPC, that is going to vary from group to group and DM to DM.

The reasons I always have a PC when I am DMing is layered. In the beginning I got pushed into the DM role because I was the guy that came up with the books, knew the rules better, and ultimately had more motivation to write compelling adventures. I was good at it. but that meant I never got to actually play. AND I actually don't enjoy DMing all that much. so for a longtime I sucked it up and just DM'd, with no DMPC. When I had enough the group was faced with a choice, someone else could DM or we were done with gaming. A compromise was made, we would rotate DMing every few sessions, and ultimately that led to everyone having a DMPC at some point.

Fast forward a few years to everyone having families, careers and other demands on their time-not everyone had the time to prepare for DMing regularly. Because I am disabled and no longer work, in theory I have more free time than everyone else, I started taking on other folk's turns as DM...which ultimately led to me DMing pretty much full time, but now I have a permanent DMPC.

It works for me and my group. Just because it doesn't work for others doesn't mean it is impossible or even improper.

[Naanomi]

The one other way I have seen DMPCs work viably is when there are rotating GMs but with the same party... so the party makeup stays consistent no matter who is running. Still occasional problems, but sometimes worth it for consistency/flow

[Atalas]

it all depends on how you work them. In one of the games I'm in, we had to find an invisible tower and the only person in the world that knew how to locate it was a 70 year old crazy woman. Between the personality the DM gave her and some incredible luck with rolls, this woman has gained 3 levels of Fighter over the course of dealing with a group of gargoyles with level 7+ spell-like abilities (including Prismatic Wall), treakking through UNDERMOUNTAIN, of all places, bamboozling kobolds, fighting drow and driders (which led to her making some incredible saves, and the DM rolled them publicly, for her to not only escape from a collapsing cavern, but save the party sorcerer too), killed a mindflayer with a cookie sheet, trek though an unhallowed crypt where we fought vampires, and then befriend an ancient fire elemental and an equally old otyugh, and then start up some red shadow dragon BBQ (we killed the dragon earlier) for those two and some azer.

needless to say, we are VERY attached to Granny Clay, enough so that we cast Revivify to bring her back when she fell victim to a Meteor Swarm.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I have always played with a DMPC.

There are a few secrets to running a satisfying DMPC that doesn't overshadow or step on player's toes.
1st: there has to be an element of trust and maturity between all players. IF not, then a DMPC isn't going to be the only problem.
2nd: run it exactly as a PC-- don't give it any breaks that you wouldn't give anyone else, and don't single it out for limits that you wouldn't place on anyone else.
3rd: Let the character be organic. But NEVER let the DMPC be the center of the story.
4th: when in doubt, fall back to the Platinum Rule: Don't be a ****.

as for WHY have a DMPC, that is going to vary from group to group and DM to DM.

The reasons I always have a PC when I am DMing is layered. In the beginning I got pushed into the DM role because I was the guy that came up with the books, knew the rules better, and ultimately had more motivation to write compelling adventures. I was good at it. but that meant I never got to actually play. AND I actually don't enjoy DMing all that much. so for a longtime I sucked it up and just DM'd, with no DMPC. When I had enough the group was faced with a choice, someone else could DM or we were done with gaming. A compromise was made, we would rotate DMing every few sessions, and ultimately that led to everyone having a DMPC at some point.

Fast forward a few years to everyone having families, careers and other demands on their time-not everyone had the time to prepare for DMing regularly. Because I am disabled and no longer work, in theory I have more free time than everyone else, I started taking on other folk's turns as DM...which ultimately led to me DMing pretty much full time, but now I have a permanent DMPC.

It works for me and my group. Just because it doesn't work for others doesn't mean it is impossible or even improper.

This. In general, unless this. I know alot of people who know the rules really well to games but in turn never get to play because nobody else has such knowledge( and apparently nobody can pick up a book and read/nobody likes the idea of homework for a hobby). Just do things right and you won't have alot of issues.

[Thrudd]

You can't play in games you run. You can have NPCs that accompany the party to help them out, but these should not be looked at as your character (any more than you look at every single shop keeper and monster in the world as your characters). If the character needs to make decisions, you should roll to decide what they think and want, in order to be fair. Never use them to direct the players anywhere or convince them of things.

[Gryndle]

You can't play in games you run. You can have NPCs that accompany the party to help them out, but these should not be looked at as your character (any more than you look at every single shop keeper and monster in the world as your characters). If the character needs to make decisions, you should roll to decide what they think and want, in order to be fair. Never use them to direct the players anywhere or convince them of things.

Why? Where is it written that you cannot play in a game you run? Where is that inviolable rule? Nowhere, that's where.

Now one point I do agree on is that as a DMPC my character never makes or drives the group's decisions or plans.

just as an example-my current DMPC (my previous character died when the PCs got ambushed)

Dagrellion "Dax" Keth is a half-elven kensai monk. I play him as a former sell-sword that was little more than a hired killer. He has a few skills that the group didn't. The other PCs had already made a name for themselves as heroes in the region. Dax has come to believe in the them and their cause. He sees in them a chance for wealth, glory and maybe a shot at redemption. So he swore his services to them. He doesn't do the planning, doesn't speak for the group. His opinion on the group's activities or plans largely comes down to his most used phrase-"You do you, I got your back."
When combat occurs, he acts in a support role, sometimes as a flanker with barbarian, sometimes as bodyguard for the sorcerer who is laying down some flaming hurt. Whatever the other PCs need.

The character isn't intrusive or disruptive to the storyline; doesn't outshine the other PCs'; and doesn't get any special treatment at all. Everyone has fun, the PLAYERS were saddened when my previous character (DMPC) died, but have grown to like "Dax" and enjoy interacting with him. We are all enjoying the game and having fun. We are all engaged in the game, and the players are all involved in the story. I fail to see how any of that is "bad-wrong fun"

[Joe the Rat]

Kinda?

What I have typically are more like DM's Pet NPCs. I do the roleplay, the party (usually an assigned player) handles the combat, and hey don't contribute unless specifically asked to.

[Maxilian]

Don't, i mean... what's the point of DMPCs when you can use NPCs? they can do what the DMPC can do without steeping on the party's toes.

[lperkins2]

So, one thing I've done in the past to great effect is letting the party hire mercenaries. What sort of mercenary is up to the party, sometimes they want a scout, sometimes, they want meat shields, sometimes they want healing. Sometimes they want several mercenaries, especially when going into heavily trapped areas. The hired mercs are fully under the DM's control, but since they're employed by the party, they'll generally follow the PCs lead.

This does several things for the game. First, from a narrative perspective, it gives you people to kill off (the players will often have them lead the charge). Second, it lets the party tackle much harder encounters, and generally doesn't add to the time taken overall for combat. If you aren't good at running NPC turns quickly, you might want to have the players run the merc in combat. Finally, it avoids most of the trouble with DMPCs, since they are generally fully transient, totally disposable, and their presence or absence is totally under the party's control.

[Luccan]

The important thing is the distinction between DMPC and NPC party member. The latter can be almost anything (henchmen, loyal followers, and includes even animal companions and familiars) and can be as permanent or as temporary as your party likes. They may be important, but they remain supporting cast members. A DMPC is a main character and the general answer to "should they be included" is no. There may be some very rare exceptions, but generally keep the NPCs as NPCs. An NPC helper is fine. Just make sure they remain secondary to the PCs. Their goals, more involved bits of personality, and history should only be focused on if the PCs decide they want to help/learn about them. Beyond that, they're just walking bags of HP and whatever class abilities, spells, or skills your PCs feel they need. Oh, that's the other part: try not to force NPC party members on the group. If they decide they'd rather have a smaller party than take the NPC, then that's their decision.

[Chalkarts]

Thank you all for your thoughts.
I have decided against a DMPC.
I like the idea of giving the group a henchman.