4th level stat or feat for my Pally

[Craulnober]

We just reached 4th level in our campaign and I have to choose between increasing stat(s) or maybe choosing a feat.

Currently:
STR 18
DEX 12
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 16

I'm a sword and board pally (Human) with Heavy Armor Master feat (variant human level 1).
Oath: Vengeance

My main issue is that I don't do a lot of damage because of my single attack and the sword. Our barb has GWM and obliterates the hordes.
So I've taken more of tank role (high AC, but not so many HPs because of CON). In the early levels I seemed to reach 0HP more, but now I'm better. Of course I take most of the damage usually (due to barb's resistance).

So:
1. Do I max my STR? It's my main stat. Better attack, better damage.
2. Do I increase my CHA? Concentration seems to be an issue. I tend to use smite 90% mainly because I'm afraid I'll lose my concentration (we fight hordes a lot until now).
3. Do I increase my CON
or
4. Do I take a feat? Main thoughts Shield Mastery/Resilient (1 is what I need + proficiency in CON)/Sentinel

Any thoughts?

[CTurbo]

Res(Con) or +2 to Cha

That solves 2 problems at once. Bumps Con and helps with Concentration.

Sentinel would be GREAT if you like to sit beside the Barbarian, but I think Res(Con) would be best for now.

+2 Cha is always good but boring. Your level 6 Aura of Protection would benefit.

[Craulnober]

Res(Con) or +2 to Cha

That solves 2 problems at once. Bumps Con and helps with Concentration.

Sentinel would be GREAT if you like to sit beside the Barbarian, but I think Res(Con) would be best for now.

+2 Cha is always good but boring. Your level 6 Aura of Protection would benefit.

What about good ol' STR +2 to max out?
Maybe later on?

[nickl_2000]

What about good ol' STR +2 to max out?
Maybe later on?

Based on some things you said I would suggest either +2 strength or a half feat that gives +1 con and something else. Resilient Constitution will assist you with your concentration checks and will also give you 4 extra hit points (nothing to scoff at). However, remember that starting at level 6 you get your Aura of Protection which will grant you your Charisma bonus to all save (concentration included). So at that point resilient con becomes less useful to you. Also, if you prefer to smite with your spell slots (a valid play style) concentration becomes less of an issue.

+2 strength gives you an extra to hit and more damage, which may come in handy as you start to fit less hordes and more powerful enemies.

Shield Master isn't a damaging feat, but it could be very helpful if you are close to your Barbarian friend. Knocking someone prone and giving the barb advantage with a GWM attack is huge. Plus the defensive abilities on Shield Mastery are absolutely huge. Plus if you think it will be fun shield bashing someone to the ground, then go for it.


I don't think you really can go wrong with +2 str, resilient con, shield master or sentinel. If you are smiting with spell slots I don't see a huge need to +2 charisma though.



EDIT: I looked at Vengeance again and you get Hunter's Mark. My opinion is to take resilient Con to get more HP and be able to keep concentration. Cast Hunter's mark so you can add 1d6 to your attack rolls and you will see your damage increasing substantially (plus it's more fun at roll more die). Pick up +2 strength or +2 charisma at level 8, +4 to your attacking stat is easily enough to last you until level 12, especially if you get a magic weapon.

[NaughtyTiger]

In combat spells with somatic only or verbal/somatic components and a sword 'n board are problematic.
If you have a strict DM (me), then warcaster is important.
If you play AL, most DMs don't pay attention to action economy.

Otherwise, sentinel is a mean feat. As a DM, i hate how well it blocks the squishies.

There are lots of ways to get str boosts (gauntlets and belts show up regularly).

[Sigreid]

Maybe magic initiate with either booming blade or green flame blade, or both to help with both damage and tanking?

[Craulnober]

In combat spells with somatic only or verbal/somatic components and a sword 'n board are problematic.
If you have a strict DM (me), then warcaster is important.
If you play AL, most DMs don't pay attention to action economy.

Otherwise, sentinel is a mean feat. As a DM, i hate how well it blocks the squishies.

There are lots of ways to get str boosts (gauntlets and belts show up regularly).

As a DM, how often do your NPCs disengage? I don't have much experience in 5e.




EDIT: I looked at Vengeance again and you get Hunter's Mark. My opinion is to take resilient Con to get more HP and be able to keep concentration. Cast Hunter's mark so you can add 1d6 to your attack rolls and you will see your damage increasing substantially (plus it's more fun at roll more die). Pick up +2 strength or +2 charisma at level 8, +4 to your attacking stat is easily enough to last you until level 12, especially if you get a magic weapon.

Yes, the edited part is why I'm thinking about Resilient CON. Most pally spells require concentration and now it's pretty low.

@Sigreid,

Aren't my spell slots too few for this?
Or are the cantrips that good?

[Sigreid]

As a DM, how often do your NPCs disengage? I don't have much experience in 5e.



Yes, the edited part is why I'm thinking about Resilient CON. Most pally spells require concentration and now it's pretty low.

@Sigreid,

Aren't my spell slots too few for this?
Or are the cantrips that good?

Those cantrips don't use slots, and can up your at will damage significantly. And I think can stack with smite to be really bonkers.

[nickl_2000]

Aren't my spell slots too few for this?
Or are the cantrips that good?

No, your spell slots really don't matter for magic initiate at all. Cantrips can be cast at will, they don't use spell slots at all. However, Booming Blade will compete with your second attack (Booming Blade/GFB will allow you to cast a cantrip and make a melee attack as part of the cantrip), so if you take 5 levels in Paladin you won't be able to make that second attack when you cast the cantrip.

[Craulnober]

Those cantrips don't use slots, and can up your at will damage significantly. And I think can stack with smite to be really bonkers.

No sorry. I meant for the 1st level spell. I thought you gain one too?

[Sigreid]

No, your spell slots really don't matter for magic initiate at all. Cantrips can be cast at will, they don't use spell slots at all. However, Booming Blade will compete with your second attack (Booming Blade/GFB will allow you to cast a cantrip and make a melee attack as part of the cantrip), so if you take 5 levels in Paladin you won't be able to make that second attack when you cast the cantrip.

This is true, but discounting smite, the damage from the cantrips will probably outstrip that second attack. And if you're having trouble hitting or want to do 2 smites you choose to not use the cantrip.

Edit to answer: it won't use your slots so just pick something that might be nice once per day.

[nickl_2000]

No sorry. I meant for the 1st level spell. I thought you gain one too?

You gain 1 casting a day with a 1st level spell. This is in addition to your Paladin spell slots.

[NaughtyTiger]

As a DM, how often do your NPCs disengage? I don't have much experience in 5e.



Yes, the edited part is why I'm thinking about Resilient CON. Most pally spells require concentration and now it's pretty low.

I am not sure I understand the reasoning for the question?
In general bad guys only disengage if they are losing.
My big bad guy will try to walk past the tank, absorb Opportunity Attack (30HP out of 130) and stop the wizard.
Sentinel stops the baddies in its tracks, and you can dish out 2 attacks on your next turn.

I agree that con saving throws are good (aura will add +2 to all saving throws).
Without warcaster you can't cast: cure wounds, divine favor, heroism, magic weapon. With that spell list, maybe somatic casting doesn't matter. Advantage on con saves is nice too.

[Sigreid]

I am not sure I understand the reasoning for the question?
In general bad guys only disengage if they are losing.
My big bad guy will try to walk past the tank, absorb Opportunity Attack (30HP out of 130) and stop the wizard.
Sentinel stops the baddies in its tracks, and you can dish out 2 attacks on your next turn.

I agree that con saving throws are good (aura will add +2 to all saving throws).
Without warcaster you can't cast: cure wounds, divine favor, heroism, magic weapon. With that spell list, maybe somatic casting doesn't matter. Advantage on con saves is nice too.

I believe paladins can meet their focus and somatic component requirements with an emblem on the shield.

[Specter]

I'd take Resilient (CON). It will give you more HP, help on your concentration and make dealing with cold/necromancy/poison easier.

[Sigreid]

I'd take Resilient (CON). It will give you more HP, help on your concentration and make dealing with cold/necromancy/poison easier.

Still playing devil's advocate, in 2 more levels he will add cha bonus to all saves, so saves are less a problem than for others, or will be soon.

[CTurbo]

Do you want to strengthen your strengths and ignore your weaknesses? Take +2 Str

Do you want to shore up your biggest weakness- hit points and concentration? Take Res(Con)

Do you want to boost your support, utility, and spellcasting? Take +2 Cha

Do you want to expand your action economy by being able to do new things? Take Sentinel

Do you want to really ramp up your damage? Take Sentinel


I still say the smartest thing for you to do right now is take Res(Con)

But honestly any of those 4 choices would be fine.

[Keravath]

Still playing devil's advocate, in 2 more levels he will add cha bonus to all saves, so saves are less a problem than for others, or will be soon.

You are correct that at level 6 he will have +3 to all saves.

However, let's look at con. At the moment it is +1. At level 6 it would become +4 and won't increase as he levels. This means that a DC10 has about a 25% failure rate (basic concentration check). A typical tier2 spell DC of 15 will fail when rolling a 10 or less - something like a 55% failure rate.

With resilient con .. the character gains 1hp/level. The con bonus goes to +2 and they also gain proficiency.

At level 5 their con save will be +5. At level 6 this will go to +8 (compared to the +4 without resilient con). In addition, this will increase as proficiency increases. Maintaining concentration against DC10 will only fail on a 1. A typical tier 2 spell save DC15 is then only failed when rolling a 6 or less.

Overall, I would think resilient con will likely make the biggest difference over the lifetime of the character assuming they use concentration spells like bless or hunter's mark regularly.

[Specter]

Still playing devil's advocate, in 2 more levels he will add cha bonus to all saves, so saves are less a problem than for others, or will be soon.

Well, sure, but between a +5 in the save or a +9...

[Sigreid]

Well, sure, but between a +5 in the save or a +9...

Everything's a choice. Regardless, I think we have successfully helped OP in understanding his options.

[MagneticKitty]

heavy armor master is what I put on my vengeance paladin at that level. especially if you have low con you're saving 3 hp on every non magic hit

[nickl_2000]

heavy armor master is what I put on my vengeance paladin at that level. especially if you have low con you're saving 3 hp on every non magic hit

The OP is a variant human who took that feat at level 1 :smallbiggrin:

[MagneticKitty]

Oh I should read. Maybe tough then.. the one that gets more hp. I'm partial to mounted combat if you take find steed

[Nidgit]

Resilient (Con) for sure. Sentinel is a lot less good when your DM is throwing hordes your way since you can only halt one per round. Hunter's Mark and Bless are both great spells you should cast more.

Magic Initiate for Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade/Eldritch Blast is a good way to shore up your Paladin's natural crowd-control weakness.

[ProseBeforeHos]

One more vote for resilient: constitution.

You need more HP, and the boost to your con saves will be pretty amazing come level 6. With proficiencies in con/wis/cha and the +3 from your aura you're every spellcasting (or ability using) monsters nightmare.

Edit: And concentration on your bless/hunters mark/haste won't be broken so easily. This is really a no-brainer.

[Sigreid]

One more vote for resilient: constitution.

You need more HP, and the boost to your con saves will be pretty amazing come level 6. With proficiencies in con/wis/cha and the +3 from your aura you're every spellcasting (or ability using) monsters nightmare.

Edit: And concentration on your bless/hunters mark/haste won't be broken so easily. This is really a no-brainer.

For HP, inspiring leader is a contender. Especially since it can apply to the rest of the group.

[Lunali]

I believe paladins can meet their focus and somatic component requirements with an emblem on the shield.

By RAW, if a spell requires S,M you can use the same hand for both components. So using a shield as the focus allows you to cast the spell while using a sword and shield. If the spell only requires S, you'll have to put the shield or sword away to have a free hand to cast with. (unless you take a feat)

[NaughtyTiger]

By RAW, if a spell requires S,M you can use the same hand for both components. So using a shield as the focus allows you to cast the spell while using a sword and shield. If the spell only requires S, you'll have to put the shield or sword away to have a free hand to cast with. (unless you take a feat)

+1 this response
RAW and RAI (Crawford explicitly stated this is the intent).

[Angelalex242]

Sentinel is my top choice. Stats can wait.

Mage Slayer is a nice complement to Sentinel. Now you can lock down anything!

[Matrix_Walker]

I'm sick to death of Resilient Constitution.

I keep taking it.

I'm so bored not to have something flashier.

But I keep taking it anyway.

I'm jealous of x...

But by Palidine, if I don't start with a class with a Con save, it's pretty much a feat tax. Its that good.