STR/DEX balance

[ZenBear]

I’m going to be running a game soon and I want to try tweaking the rules in a few ways. In particular, I want to mess with the balance between STR and DEX builds.

Bows, long sword, spear and glaive will be finesse weapons, so STR or DEX can be used..

What problems do you foresee this might cause? I like granting STR builds a decent ranged option and DEX will still have crossbows exclusive, meanwhile I want to grant DEX builds and Rogues in particular the option to use a weapon two-handed. This will also allow DEX to pick up PAM though, which was always a big draw for STR.

Thoughts?

[Crgaston]

PAM Rogues are a potential problem.

[nickl_2000]

PAM Rogues are a potential problem.

Oh man, a Rogue with Sentinel and PAM who can sneak attack with it will be dishing out huge amounts of damage.

Does the Monk get glaive as a monk weapon too? Because I could see a monk with a reach weapon being a possible problem.

You could also have a GWM, PAM, Sentinel dex based fighter which from a balance perspective with saving throws could be an issue.

[Willie the Duck]

Thoughts?

If bows become strength based, then characters with multiattack will probably go for strength (Dex is now in the position that strength used to be, where martials over level 5 have no good feat-less options for ranged combat).

The class/character concept that would lose the most from this decision would be the quintessential ranger. They will need a decent strength to shoot their longbow, but a 14 Dex to have a decent AC in medium armor (or better yet 16 and Medium Armor Master feat). Or they could go all in on the Dex, try to get to Dex 20 for light-armor AC maximization, and pick up Crossbow expert (removing the loading property) to deal with multi-attack. Between all that MAD and feats required, Rangers who can dabble in boosting their wisdom or otherwise focus on spells will be few and far between.

[ZenBear]

PAM Rogues are a potential problem.

Hmm... fair point. I suppose just long sword then. I like the image of a graceful spear fighter, but that combo is just too strong. Damn...

Another thing though, does anyone have any tips on how to reward a hybrid STR/DEX build?

[ZenBear]

If bows become strength based, then characters with multiattack will probably go for strength (Dex is now in the position that strength used to be, where martials over level 5 have no good feat-less options for ranged combat).

The class/character concept that would lose the most from this decision would be the quintessential ranger. They will need a decent strength to shoot their longbow, but a 14 Dex to have a decent AC in medium armor (or better yet 16 and Medium Armor Master feat). Or they could go all in on the Dex, try to get to Dex 20 for light-armor AC maximization, and pick up Crossbow expert (removing the loading property) to deal with multi-attack. Between all that MAD and feats required, Rangers who can dabble in boosting their wisdom or otherwise focus on spells will be few and far between.

Sorry for the confusion, bows would be finesse, so STR or DEX. Will edit OP.

[ciarannihill]

Hmm... fair point. I suppose just long sword then. I like the image of a graceful spear fighter, but that combo is just too strong. Damn...

Another thing though, does anyone have any tips on how to reward a hybrid STR/DEX build?

I also love the image of a graceful spear fighter (Oberyn from GoT comes to mind), but it's probably better to just make the simple weapon Spear also have Finesse (as it should have anyway IMO). I allow it at my table and I've never had an issue.

EDIT: Note, I give it Finesse in place of the thrown property. I don't see the need for 2 throwing spears. Javelins are fine.

[JBPuffin]

Str-based bows give fighters and rangers an option if they don't need their Dex, so honestly, this looks like a damage boost all around. Of course, that leaves tridents even worse off than before, but screw tridents :/.

PAM Rogue and reach-monk sound like fun to play, too...

[Willie the Duck]

With corrections, this just seems like a general boost for martial combat. I guess at this point, the question becomes why have two separate stats?

[ZenBear]

I also love the image of a graceful spear fighter (Oberyn from GoT comes to mind), but it's probably better to just make the simple weapon Spear also have Finesse (as it should have anyway IMO). I allow it at my table and I've never had an issue.

EDIT: Note, I give it Finesse in place of the thrown property. I don't see the need for 2 throwing spears. Javelins are fine.

Oh right, spear for some fuggin reason doesn’t get access to PAM. Dumb as hell, but a fine loophole I think. I wonder if I should qualify that if you use a long sword with DEX it becomes d6/d8 versatile so it doesn’t outshine the spear, or make the spear d8/d10?

[ZenBear]

With corrections, this just seems like a general boost for martial combat. I guess at this point, the question becomes why have two separate stats?

The stat difference remains relevant in a lot of ways. DEX gives AC, reflex saves and various skills, STR gets HWM, heavy armor, carrying capacity, etc. I’m just trying to give my players more options.

[ciarannihill]

Oh right, spear for some fuggin reason doesn’t get access to PAM. Dumb as hell, but a fine loophole I think. I wonder if I should qualify that if you use a long sword with DEX it becomes d6/d8 versatile so it doesn’t outshine the spear, or make the spear d8/d10?

I think the Spear gets Reach. If you remove Thrown than it having Reach and Finesse becomes fairly attractive and makes sense. It also gives a great reason for it's use over a Finesse Longsword.

[ZenBear]

I think the Spear gets Reach. If you remove Thrown than it having Reach and Finesse becomes fairly attractive and makes sense. It also gives a great reason for it's use over a Finesse Longsword.

It doesn’t have reach inherently, but that is a good idea. Longsword gets finesse, spear gets finesse and reach but loses thrown. Viola! I love this forum. Only thing we need is the ability to upvote.

[Nifft]

Hmm. In this vein, how about buffing thrown weapons?

For example, maybe something like +10 ft. range per +1 Str, up to +50 ft. at Str 20 -- plus make drawing any number of them just part of the Attack action, so you can use Extra Attack and friends.

[ciarannihill]

Hmm. In this vein, how about buffing thrown weapons?

For example, maybe something like +10 ft. range per +1 Str, up to +50 ft. at Str 20 -- plus make drawing any number of them just part of the Attack action, so you can use Extra Attack and friends.

I understand the thought, and I love the multidraw aspect, but when it comes to throwing weapons technique really is king... Putting too much strength into your throws is a great way to miss and hurt your throwing arm...


@ZenBear: I didn't mean to imply Spear inherently has Reach, but that giving it Reach would be enough to differentiate it from the Longsword without making one strictly better or worse. I worded that quite poorly, though, so I understand the confusion. :P

[Nifft]

I understand the thought, and I love the multidraw aspect, but when it comes to throwing weapons technique really is king... Putting too much strength into your throws is a great way to miss and hurt your throwing arm...

Not sure how you got that from my post.

By the core rules, you can throw a throwing axe with your Str and get +Str to damage. You're throwing it harder, so it hits harder, and you do that because you're stronger.

I'm proposing that being stronger also allows you to throw farther, in addition to throwing harder.

You've always been throwing harder, that's not new per my post.

[ciarannihill]

Not sure how you got that from my post.

By the core rules, you can throw a throwing axe with your Str and get +Str to damage. You're throwing it harder, so it hits harder, and you do that because you're stronger.

I'm proposing that being stronger also allows you to throw farther, in addition to throwing harder.

You've always been throwing harder, that's not new per my post.

I, for some reason, thought you meant when using Dex for Daggers or Darts in my head, adding extra strength. I don't know why, my mistake.

[ZenBear]

Hmm. In this vein, how about buffing thrown weapons?

For example, maybe something like +10 ft. range per +1 Str, up to +50 ft. at Str 20 -- plus make drawing any number of them just part of the Attack action, so you can use Extra Attack and friends.

Suggestion accepted. I don’t want throwing weapons to be completely outclassed by bows. Thanks!

Also, I agree that throwing is about technique over strength, but proper technique + great strength = longer, harder throw IMO.

[Hawkstar]

Sword outshining spear isn't a problem- sword is martial and slashing, while spear is simple and piercing.

I am all for STR Longbows, though. Greatsword and Longbow just thematically go together for Aragorn-style rangers.