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View Full Version : Suggestions for a rogue/warlock or rogue/dragonfire adept?



13_CBS
2007-09-09, 12:06 PM
Hmm...I'm playing a game here at Giantitp as a level 6 Rogue. I plan on taking classes in warlock sometime soon, but I don't quite know where to go from there.

The way things are going right now, I'll probably end up being a semi-tank along with the paladin (the party consists of a Paladin, a Rogue (me), a Psion, and a Wizard), flanking and sneak attacking while the Paladin hold the line and wails on the bad guy. Any suggestions on where to go from here with a warlock? I originally was going to go for Hideous Blow, but apparently using that provokes AoOs :smalleek:

I unfortunately cannot remember what books we are allowed to use. Also, I'd like to not multiclass beyond a rogue or a warlock.

Here's my character sheet: http://www.rpgwebprofiler.net/view.php?id=57799

EDIT: Upon another suggestion I found below, I'm considering multiclassing into Dragonfire Adept for a bit. Any suggestions?

13_CBS
2007-09-09, 04:50 PM
So...anyone? Anyone at all?

Reel On, Love
2007-09-09, 05:28 PM
It's a trap.

Warlock does very little for the Rogue--Hideous Blow is a crappy invocation. If you MUST have a level, take a utility invocation like the skill- or save-booster or See the Unseen/Walk Unseen or something and don't go back to the class.

Try the TWF feat instead of Imp. Initiative (or "in addition to"--at level 6, you should have three feats). Dipping into Swordsage would open Shadow Blade up for you, too.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-09, 06:09 PM
The Psychic Rogue variant could be interesting since you use psionics in your game.

The psychic rogue has base 6 PP before intelligence bonus and knows 3 level 1 powers and 2 level 2 powers.

Since you want to be a tank Vigor could be nice for extra hit points, Force Screen wouldn't hurt (+4 AC) and another level 1 power like Dimensional Pocket could be nice for a rogue hiding items.

Level 2 powers include Animal Affinity, Knock, Read Thoughts, Detect Hostile Intent, Chameleon, Dark Vision, Control Object, Chameleon, Find Traps and others.

Hidden Talent could give your PC Astral Construct or Charm Psionic at level 1.

13_CBS
2007-09-09, 06:11 PM
Thanks, but I really do want to go Warlock and stick with either it or Rogue.

So, no other advice for Warlock? I could also probably pick up UMD stuff since we're short of a cleric...

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-09, 06:42 PM
If you go Warlock consider the Hellfire Warlock PRC.

knightsaline
2007-09-09, 06:45 PM
Want to use your Elderich Blast in melee? Take the feat Eldritch Claws from Dragon. It allows you to use your blast in melee by making it into a set of claws that last until next round. It does require +2d6 blast damage. Claws are in dragon 358. I thought there was more, but it just seemed to be Eldrich warriors who bond with their armor. they were just Fighters who give up bonus feats in order to do some cool stuff. If you were to make a Warlock/Fighter, these may be worth a look.

Neon Knight
2007-09-09, 06:46 PM
Personally, if I was in your situation, and I only had the choice between Rogue and Warlock, I'd pick Rogue. Warlock doesn't really seem to add anything to what you're trying to do.

13_CBS
2007-09-09, 07:06 PM
Personally, if I was in your situation, and I only had the choice between Rogue and Warlock, I'd pick Rogue. Warlock doesn't really seem to add anything to what you're trying to do.

But I like Warlocks :smallfrown:

I doubt that stuff from the Dragon is allowed. And doesn't HFW require an evil alignment?

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-09-09, 07:13 PM
Find a way to get invisibility, such as a Ring of Invisibility. Eldrich Blast is a ranged touch attack. This means you can sneak attack with it. Have a nice day with flat-footed touch attack sneak attacks.

Aquillion
2007-09-09, 07:32 PM
Warlock / Rogue just don't go together very well. None of the things you can do with their combined abilities are going to be anywhere close to what you could do as one or the other pure.

Sneak-attack blasts might sound fun, but you could do the same thing with a wand of Ray of Cold... and every level you put into warlock to get more dice for your blast, is one less die you get to your sneak attack damage, or vice-versa. You're basically getting a blast that is no better than a generic warlock blast, but with limited situations it can be used... and a crippled sneak attack for everything but your blast. You can get invisibility from the warlock, but honestly, there are simpler ways to do that if that's what you want.

And Warlock is a particularly bad class to add to rogue if you want to be a semi-tank. Warlock doesn't give you much to help you as a tank... its defenses are invisibility, flight, and teleportation, not things to help you survive up on the front lines. Its limited DR and fast healing won't help you at all.

13_CBS
2007-09-09, 07:39 PM
I'm also the team infiltrator, though (or at least I probably will be). Also, one of my main concerns is trying to up my normal, non-flanking melee damage. Unless I'm flanking, and thus sneak attacking, my damage is absolute crap (1d6+1, whoo...), hence my taking a look at Hideous Blow/Warlock...

Any other nice classes for a semi-tank/infiltrator?

Ulzgoroth
2007-09-09, 07:46 PM
I may regret this, but what about monk with Ascetic Rogue? If you're high-int, find one of the feats that lets you use that for monk class features.

EDIT:
Swordsage might also be useful.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-09-09, 07:58 PM
Swordsage would be miles better than warlock. Shadow Hand has some fun stances, like Assassin's Stance, which gives you +2d6 sneak attack. Also Wall of Blades (I forgot which discipline, but it's one a Swordsage can get) which lets you flank MUCH easier. Take something out of Desert Wind for extra fire damage on every hit and you're not doing too shabby.

Nightsong Enforcer is good for a melee-based attacker as well.

Solo
2007-09-09, 08:19 PM
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=751117

"The max I would go for a dip into Warlock is 4, which nets you 3 Least Invocations, Detect Magic at will, Eldritch Blast 2d6 (Meh) Damage Reduction 1/Cold Iron, and Imbue Item, which gives you the awesome ability to take 10 on UMB checks, something shared only by the Artificer."

"Good Invocations for this are: Beguiling Influence, Leaps and Bounds, Entropic Warding, See and Unseen, and Spiderwalk, depending on what you are trying to accomplish. A social Rogue, for example, could pick up a +6 unnamed bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. A warrior could dip in for 1 level to get See the Unseen, which would grant Darkvision and See Invisibility."

Least Invocations

All Seeing Eyes (CM):+6 Search and spot bonus and comprehend language for written things. Not bad for a scouting/spying oriented warlock

Baleful Utterance: Unlimited Shatters as the spell. very very very useful.

Beguiling Influence: +6 Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Bluff.

Entropic Warding: 20% miss chance from ranged attacks, leaving no trail, cant be tracked by scent? Wow.

Leaps and Bounds: +6 to Jump and Tumble. Might be good for multi-class Warlocks that get those skills on their list. Rogue and Monks come to mind immediately.

See the Unseen: 24 hour See Invisibility -and- Darkvision.

Spiderwalk: A great power for those Warlocks seeking to enhance their mobility options, esp. in caves, buildings, and cities. You get Spiderclimb as the spell wit a 24 hour duration.

Stam
2007-09-09, 08:34 PM
*kicks wicky browser as it crashes mid-post on him*

Anyway. Thank you, Solo, for finally honoring the request of the poster instead of bringing in ToB stuff (like seems to inevitably happen) or otherwise .


Look, people, we all know that compared to the melee classes the ToB stuff is super-pwnered. This does not need to be repeatedly emphasized by trying to shove it into every build that did not ask for it - all this does is emphasize how broken it is when compared to the fighter, ranger or monk. If used exclusively to replace those classes, it might even be fine...but otherwise, enough!
It wasn't asked for, and it isn't necessary, and compared to the poor Fighter standing next to the rogue, it's downright unfair.

The other thing I'll bring out from the link quoted by Solo is this:

Arcane Trickster (DMG) by Thinblade: A way to advance invocations and sneak attack. Requires the feat spell hand (Complete Arcane) and a lesser invocation, plus 2d6 sneak attack. This is one of the few classes with the requirement “one spell of X level,” which let warlocks enter, as opposed to “spells of X level,” which don’t. A neat trick, if you don’t want to give up three levels to thief, is to instead use the feats Martial Study and Martial Stance to get Assassin’s Stance. Since you can be in a stance indefinately and can’t be knocked out of it, you can use it to qualify for any PrC that requires sneak attack dice. It doesn’t help with the ranks in thief skills, though.

(I believe the Lesser invocation is Flee The Scene. All up, you require at least three levels of rogue and six of Warlock. Or one of Rogue and one of another class/PrC that grants sneak attack.)

Neon Knight
2007-09-09, 08:48 PM
ToB stuff actually isn't more powerful per say than normal melee stuff, ToB classes can just apply that power far more often. They also have a wider array of tricks and don't require their builds to be focused on a single task in order to be good at it.

Stam
2007-09-09, 09:06 PM
ToB stuff actually isn't more powerful per say than normal melee stuff, ToB classes can just apply that power far more often. They also have a wider array of tricks and don't require their builds to be focused on a single task in order to be good at it.
So they're not better...they can just do the same thing more often (i.e. - better?) than the fighter. And they're not better, they've just got a wider array of tricks than the fighter (i.e. - better?). And they're still not better, they can just do everything a fighter can without having to stack a pile of feats on it to be competent (i.e. - better?).

Not seeing your point at all, and it's still off-topic given the request of this thread.

Neon Knight
2007-09-09, 09:15 PM
That was in response to your quote:


Originally Posted by snide aside
Look, people, we all know that compared to the melee classes the ToB stuff is super-pwnered. This does not need to be repeatedly emphasized by trying to shove it into every build that did not ask for it - all this does is emphasize how broken it is when compared to the fighter, ranger or monk. If used exclusively to replace those classes, it might even be fine...but otherwise, enough!
It wasn't asked for, and it isn't necessary, and compared to the poor Fighter standing next to the rogue, it's downright unfair.

ToB stuff isn't actually super powered or broken. Well, it can be broken, but ToB exploits are generally in lesser volume and severity than those of the arcane and divine caster.

ToB classes are better. Their strikes do usually equivalent damage to a well built Fighter's full attack. The ToB can just use his strikes more often, because it can be stunningly difficult to get a full attack off when facing even a slightly intelligent foe.

13_CBS
2007-09-09, 09:19 PM
*Sigh*

PLEASE DO NOT DISCUSS TOB HERE. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST IN THAT BOOK, OR DISCUSSING IT. Thank you.

Thanks for the link, Solo.

I'm wondering if it would be worth it to stick with Warlock till 6 to nab a lesser invocation or two. Flight and becoming invisible at will seem pretty handy, and I can also bring up some decent emergency ranged attacks (in the form of eldritch blasts, of course) in case things go badly..

Solo
2007-09-09, 09:27 PM
I cannot say whether or not it would be a good idea to continue to level 6, but I suggest you take a good hard look at your character concept and decide whether you want to be more roguey or more warlocky

Ulzgoroth
2007-09-09, 10:20 PM
No way of knowing it was so unwelcome without suggesting it...I can see rogue-warlock being effective perhaps, but rogue-warlock as a melee fighter not as much.

EDIT: and if you don't want alternatives, that's fine, but you did ask for them.

What about a ranger dip? Full BaB, first two levels give you useful things (assuming that you haven't already got the first feat of your preferred combat style), an extra hit point, some decent proficiencies, and all the skills an infiltrator needs plus a few handy things not on the rogue list.

13_CBS
2007-09-09, 10:29 PM
Hmm, a ranger...I am intrigued. *Goes off to check out the ranger*

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-09-09, 10:57 PM
Actually, Ranger isn't a bad choice for a combat-oriented stealth guy.

Rangers get Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Search, and Spot all as class skills, and 6+ Int mod skills to get them with. With even a modest Int score, you can get all these, plus Survival and a couple of points in relevant Knowledge skills (eventually getting 5 ranks in all relevant knowledge skills for bonuses to tracking, and general critter identification).

Rangers also get full BAB, D8 hit die, and medium armor proficency, so they can sport around in Mithral Full Plate later on for vastly superior survivability.

The only thing they don't get is Sneak Attack and Trapfinding.

Person_Man
2007-09-09, 11:18 PM
I'm also the team infiltrator, though (or at least I probably will be). Also, one of my main concerns is trying to up my normal, non-flanking melee damage. Unless I'm flanking, and thus sneak attacking, my damage is absolute crap (1d6+1, whoo...), hence my taking a look at Hideous Blow/Warlock...

Any other nice classes for a semi-tank/infiltrator?

Warlock is a horrible idea for a Tank/Infiltrator.

Skills + Kills isn't that hard of a combination, even without ToB. I would suggest a strait Rogue, Psychic Rogue, Assassin, Psychic Assassin, Ranger, Deepwarden, Dragonfire Adept, or something similar.

Can you give more details on what type of play you enjoy and what books are allowed? That will make build advice easier.

Nightblade
2007-09-10, 02:47 AM
Melee-oriented rogue/warlock seems pretty meh. Ranged rogue/warlock could be decent. Take Eldritch Spear to be a pretty wicked sniper-type character. An assassin like that would be pretty cool as well. I don't think there's a rogue/warlock prestige, is there?

Keledrath
2007-09-10, 06:25 AM
Horrible idea. The only multiclass I've ever seen that I approve of not done purely to get a PrC is my dad's half-orc fighter cleric of Heironeous. War and Good domains, basicly higher BAB CoDzilla eventually.

Leon
2007-09-10, 06:42 AM
Actually, Ranger isn't a bad choice for a combat-oriented stealth guy.

Rangers get Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Search, and Spot all as class skills, and 6+ Int mod skills to get them with. With even a modest Int score, you can get all these, plus Survival and a couple of points in relevant Knowledge skills (eventually getting 5 ranks in all relevant knowledge skills for bonuses to tracking, and general critter identification).

Rangers also get full BAB, D8 hit die, and medium armor proficency, so they can sport around in Mithral Full Plate later on for vastly superior survivability.

The only thing they don't get is Sneak Attack and Trapfinding.



A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor and shields (except tower shields).


From the SRD in regard to what Rangers can wear, they start losing abilites in heavier armour

Solo
2007-09-10, 06:49 AM
Hideous Blow is pretty bad, for the record.

Eldritch Spear is good for sniping, but you may want to use the invocation slot on a least invocation.

13_CBS
2007-09-10, 07:22 AM
Skills + Kills isn't that hard of a combination, even without ToB. I would suggest a strait Rogue, Psychic Rogue, Assassin, Psychic Assassin, Ranger, Deepwarden, Dragonfire Adept, or something similar.


Hmm...Dragonfire adept. How could I go about combining that with a rogue effectively?

As for my style of play, I really don't know. I haven't played enough to get a feel for my style of play yet (I've only just started, I only play here online, and we haven't had that much combat). I try to attack flanked opponents whenever possible, though, with my rapier (I haven't had that many opportunities to attack with my bow yet).

Solo
2007-09-10, 07:23 AM
Maybe you want Eldritch Glaive?