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View Full Version : Spelling/ Grammar in PbP -- How important is it?



esorscher
2018-06-29, 04:47 PM
The title really summarizes my question: How important is it (to us as players and as DMs) that the people we game with on the forums use complete sentences, spell things correctly (especially when browsers like Chrome have spell-check automatically included), avoid run-ons, etc.? I'm not talking about things like "don't end a sentence with a preposition," but there are some things I consider to be pretty essential to online communication, to the point where I don't really want to play in a game with someone if they don't know/ choose to use them. I do make exceptions for people who don't speak English as a first language, but make an honest effort and can be understood.

Do others share my view, or am I being too particular?

Jormengand
2018-06-29, 04:56 PM
I have sensery procesing issues which maike it dificult for me to understnad any sentance which is much more mispelt than this on. Also, when people sort of ramble thoughts onto a page rather than putting them into actual sentences it can be a pain. But, otherwise, I don't mind too much.

Mr Blobby
2018-06-29, 06:41 PM
As a PbP GM myself... not really.

As long as it's readable, logical and does what a post is meant to do aka push the story/conversation along, I'm pretty lax. Several of my players don't have English as native, one is dyslexic and most use phones for posting, so it would be unfair to penalise them. However, I do nudge them towards things like 'get a better spellchecker' or point out a real howler [politely, of course]. I've also gone and manually edited autocorrect epic fails too. [Example: 'your master shows you his sanctum' becoming 'your master shows you his scrotum']

I've had much more issues with posts which have no formatting whatsoever, mass seepage of purple prose, unreadable fonts/colours or posts which seem to make no sense or have utility than spelling/grammar issues alone.

However, I've not yet had a player which from the looks of it couldn't actually write a thing.

BWR
2018-06-29, 06:48 PM
I won't say it's vitally important but if you don't want to annoy the hell out of people like me, get it right. A typo here and there is one thing, continually misspelling words, using the wrong words, poor grammar and punctuation, poor composition, etc. is a good way to make me ignore your post or instinctively want to work against you. Allowances are made for non-native writers, but if I have to spend more time puzzling out what is being said or being annoyed by it than I spend composing a reply, it needs to be better.

A pbp is not an MMO chat; there should be standards.

Mr Blobby
2018-06-29, 07:02 PM
Counterpoint: I'd rather have a 'functional', if somewhat grammar-wrong and error-containing posts if the demand for a 'perfect' post would be a reduction in the players post-rate falls from say 5 a day to 1.

I've actually told my players to not brood over IC replies and keep on polishing them. As in RL, some 90% of their responses are off-the-cuff and thus the character would only get a few moments to think of it.

MrSandman
2018-06-30, 10:49 AM
What I consider important is that it is clear and understandable. Not making spelling mistakes helps, but I'd rather have a good flow of argument/story, complete sentences, and clearly defined paragraphs than perfect spelling/grammar.

In short, as long as it's understandable, I'm okay with it. If I need to do a lot of deciphering work (either due to not spelling things properly or due to poor writing skills), I'm out of there.

jindra34
2018-06-30, 11:50 AM
It needs to be good enough that the GM doesn't have to spend three PM's clarifying your actions. It should be clear which 1 course of action you want to take.

WindStruck
2018-06-30, 03:17 PM
I want to understand everyone else and not be second guessing what they mean every time they post.

JNAProductions
2018-06-30, 03:44 PM
Moderately important. Like, don't worry your butt off about it (I don't even know what a dangling participle is, if that's wrong to use, or anything about it other than that it exists) but run your post through spellcheck (Chrome does it automatically, which is nice) and reread it once or twice if you have to.

It should be clear what you're saying, and excessive typos are not to be had, but minor errors or stuff that's technically incorrect but easy to understand? That's fine.

Also, there's the edit button, for if you forgot to proofread a post.

esorscher
2018-06-30, 03:53 PM
Seems like there's a consensus -- fine points are not important, but complete sentences, rudimentary spelling, and general ability to be understood, are expected. Thanks everyone!

JNAProductions
2018-06-30, 03:55 PM
Seems like there's a consensus -- fine points are not important, but complete sentences, rudimentary spelling, and general ability to be understood, are expected. Thanks everyone!

Sounds about right.

Why do you ask, by the way?

esorscher
2018-06-30, 04:03 PM
Sounds about right.

Why do you ask, by the way?

It's something I've always wondered about, and now that I'm in a position to consider prospective applicants for a game I'm planning, I want to be sure that I'm not judging too harshly.

JNAProductions
2018-06-30, 04:10 PM
It's something I've always wondered about, and now that I'm in a position to consider prospective applicants for a game I'm planning, I want to be sure that I'm not judging too harshly.

Fair enough. Glad we could offer some advice.

Rynjin
2018-06-30, 04:15 PM
Egregious misspellings and grammatical errors that impede misunderstanding tend to disqualify people as either my players or GM.

Typos are understandable, but basic stuff like starting your sentence with a capital, capitalizing nouns, and getting your commonly misunderstood words like its/it's and their/they're/there right are essential.

My rule of thumb: if your posts are less coherent than my English-as-a-second-language friends, you can get lost.

Mr Blobby
2018-07-01, 11:10 AM
I would look more closely to say, the 'applicant's' ability to concisely produce posts than mere spelling/grammar. One of the things which make me shudder is to come on to reply to a thread, only to notice another - perhaps several others - have produced replies which fill my computer screen with text which on closer inspection some ~80% plus is irrelevant to the story or anything but I still have to wade through.

This is one of the 'secret' reasons I ask for backstories from prospective players - it's me seeing how 'good' the player is in noticing what is important about the character and their skill in showing this in as few words as possible.

In short: internal monologues make me cry. It also means that if I'm looking at a prospective group to join and they've got a per-post word minimum, I always say to the GM privately that while I respect the reason behind the rule [to halt the one-line crowd; a type of player which it is almost impossible to socially RP with as they never give you anything to work off] I will hold to the spirit not the letter; that sometimes, just sometimes a one-line reply *is* the best reply!

JNAProductions
2018-07-01, 11:12 AM
I would look more closely to say, the 'applicant's' ability to concisely produce posts than mere spelling/grammar. One of the things which make me shudder is to come on to reply to a thread, only to notice another - perhaps several others - have produced replies which fill my computer screen with text which on closer inspection some ~80% plus is irrelevant to the story or anything but I still have to wade through.

In short: internal monologues make me cry. It also means that if I'm looking at a prospective group to join and they've got a per-post word minimum, I always say to the GM privately that while I respect the reason behind the rule [to halt the one-line crowd; a type of player which it is almost impossible to socially RP with as they never give you anything to work off] I will hold to the spirit not the letter; that sometimes, just sometimes a one-line reply *is* the best reply!

I don't think there are any issues with excessive text, so long as they're in clearly marked spoilers.

For instance, fourteen paragraphs of text with only two being visible or knowable to the rest of the party is not cool. But a paragraph of party stuff, followed by a twelve paragraph spoiler of more details if you want, followed by another party paragraph, is fine.

Mr Blobby
2018-07-01, 11:22 AM
When it comes to IC posting, I follow the rule of parsimony: the only things which get in is their actions, anything visible [tone, movements etc], their words and once, at the first IC post, a one-two line description of what they're wearing. That's it.

No internal monologues. No rambling paragraphs on excessive descriptions. Any OOC comment[s] should be clearly separate, ideally in an OOC thread.

Fourteen-paragraph replies, with a very few exceptions [GM setting up/ending a thread, PC telling a story] are very high on my list of 'games I do not wish to play' if they're frequent. I do not have time nor inclination for having to read that much! I've done enough PbP to know it is [usually] unnecessary. Lastly, but not least - it's a warning sign to me that the players are playing Mary/Marty Sues, Snowflakes or the like.

Goaty14
2018-07-01, 01:49 PM
Spelling gets to me, like GETS to me. Grammar is more or less a hit/miss sort of thing, but it really grinds my gears when people can be so ignorant to avoid using autocorrect.

Eldan
2018-07-01, 02:06 PM
I mean, as long as it's understandable...

On the other hand, I usually have about five times more applications to any PBP game than I intend to run, so I can be as discerning as I want.

Nifft
2018-07-01, 02:56 PM
wen u cart unrestrained wont they ether pensions sawing than its two bade ant neat's too slop


This depends entirely on the audience. PbP is a form of communication, and if the people aren't communicating successfully with each other then there's something wrong.

Grammar, speeling, and so forth are only important insofar as:


A) The mistakes in grammar etc. don't cause undue ambiguity or miscommunication; and

B) The mistakes in general don't wreck anyone's immersion.


(B) is significant to the degree that the participants in the group can agree on some standards which work for everyone. There's no absolute right answer to this one. This happens with amateur fiction, too -- sometimes the grammar / speeling / etc. are so awful that the reader can't engage with the content, and the threshold for disengagement varies by reader. If this is the issue, then talk with your group and try to meet them half-way.

If it's (A), though, then it's NOT your issue alone. Precision in communication is difficult, and bad communication kills. The game has a lot of moving parts, and it's honestly quite easy to say something which you think is very clear, but the next person to read it does not see it as clear -- or worse, the reader sees something clear, but it's not what you'd intended. This is the sort of thing where absolute right answers can exist. If the people you're playing with can't communicate clearly -- with or without perfect grammar -- then they're wasting everyone else's time.


Communication is difficult, especially with other people.

Mr Blobby
2018-07-01, 03:29 PM
One thing not mentioned; deliberate grammar/spelling errors in IC posts - showing the character is say poorly educated.

Pleh
2018-07-01, 07:30 PM
Eh. Like any table group, it comes down to what works best for people who are there. When standards differ, usually best to compromise as best you can to include others.

It's not wrong to ask people to do the work of keeping tidy presentation. We don't want laziness run amok and drag people out of the moment through very avoidable mistakes.

It's also not wrong to ask people to keep it simple and not waste time. Waxing poetic may be helpful in compensating for lack of body language and vocal intonation, but it probably isn't necessary unless character motivation becomes relevant.

AshfireMage
2018-07-01, 07:46 PM
While we're on the topic of PbP formatting, one thing I find very helpful (although I wouldn't go so far as to require it) in a more narrative-focused is to set off actual spoken dialogue and mechanical actions taken by the characters in some kind of text formatting.

For example, standard for the game I'm part of is that any dialogue spoken aloud will be a different color than the rest of the post (many will have different colors for different languages their characters speak to avoid the constant "he said in Spanish"), emails and text messages are set off in brackets, dice rolls are in spoiler boxes titled with a brief (couple of words) explanation of what stats they're rolling and what they hope to accomplish, and any other mechanical actions (resource spending, power activation, etc) is bolded.

Again, I would't go so far as to require people to format like this, particularly requiring specific formatting styles, but it really does help being able to decipher what's going on in a post quickly and easily.

Mr Blobby
2018-07-01, 08:34 PM
Yeah, I'd say a PbP GM needs to a) develop a 'House Style' and b) stick to it. If you always make OC comments/actions [in brackets] I've found after a bit other players do too and the like.

I've never personally felt [as a GM] to bold or whatever the spoken IC things; mainly because I don't do monologuing [PC internal monologues are bad enough, but NPC's? *shudder*]. You can, in my opinion make the speech parts clearer by simply:

'Putting the IC speech in their own paragraph, and being careful that each speaker - if more than one NPC gets their own line.'

'This also helps to break up my pet peeve; the dreaded "wall of text".'

But yes, it's important that said formatting is easy to use. If it isn't, people won't do it, or will intermittently. Including the GM.

Pleh
2018-07-01, 09:07 PM
While we're on the topic of PbP formatting, one thing I find very helpful (although I wouldn't go so far as to require it) in a more narrative-focused is to set off actual spoken dialogue and mechanical actions taken by the characters in some kind of text formatting.

For example, standard for the game I'm part of is that any dialogue spoken aloud will be a different color than the rest of the post (many will have different colors for different languages their characters speak to avoid the constant "he said in Spanish"), emails and text messages are set off in brackets, dice rolls are in spoiler boxes titled with a brief (couple of words) explanation of what stats they're rolling and what they hope to accomplish, and any other mechanical actions (resource spending, power activation, etc) is bolded.

Again, I would't go so far as to require people to format like this, particularly requiring specific formatting styles, but it really does help being able to decipher what's going on in a post quickly and easily.

Common format I've used is each player uses a distinct color for their character's spoken words.

Important out of game chat is kept to spoiler tabs (or even a whole separate thread).

Thoughts are italicized and in 'single apostrophes.' But for games that skip internal dialogue, you can also use the format for hushed or whispered words.

You probably don't want too much more extra formatting, for similar reasons that it's illegal on this forum.

Mr Blobby
2018-07-01, 09:20 PM
Thoughts are italicized and in 'single apostrophes.'...

Which would make it a bit more confusing if the person behind the keyboard was educated using British custom, rather than US: single apostrophes are speech marks, while doubles are quote marks. Example... me, ironically...


...'This also helps to break up my pet peeve; the dreaded "wall of text".'...

Okay, from as far as I can tell I'm in the very distinct minority online who uses singles - even the hallowed BBC uses doubles. Only the hoariest, most vindictive English examiner would mark a student down for using US-custom in say the UK in an exam [as long as you're consistent in which custom you follow, I was told].

Merely pointing out that it may not be 100% reliable to rely on just a change of apostrophes to show something.

Mr Beer
2018-07-01, 11:44 PM
It's something I've always wondered about, and now that I'm in a position to consider prospective applicants for a game I'm planning, I want to be sure that I'm not judging too harshly.

It's your game.

If someone's game application is difficult to parse, I think it's completely reasonable to assume that they are either not particularly invested and/or their in-game posts are going to be even harder to parse. I wouldn't be inviting them to play.

Mordaedil
2018-07-02, 01:53 AM
In my experience, nobody cares if you slip up once in a while with words or spelling in a strict sense, but as usual when you are participating in a text-based medium, basic comprehension is expected and desired for enjoyment. Proper use of commas and capital letters are what I would expect and not so much "chat based" language.

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-02, 11:26 AM
Perfection is not required, it's an informal setting.

But the moment it starts to interfere in clear communication and diminish the fun level or distract from the game... then it's a problem and needs to be addressed.

2D8HP
2018-07-03, 02:48 AM
I'm far too uneducated and likely make too many frequent errors to demand much from others regarding grammar and spelling.

But what does make it hard for me to read is long sentences and a lack of white space between paragraphs, so I do request that.