Sneak Attack and Regeneration?

[Kelt]

Theoretically, could a rogue sneak attack a monster with regeneration if the rogue didn't have a weapon that dealt damage that bypassed its regen? At first I didn't see a reason why not, but:

"She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack" sneak attack description in the PHB. Does this mean a rogur can't voluntarily deal nonlethal? Or would the regeneration also block the sneak attack?

Thanks!

[Venger]

Yes. Sneak attack works normally on a monster with regeneration, even though it deals nonlethal damage. For example, if you're attacking a troll with a dagger and fulfill the criteria for sneak attack, it functions normally, even if you are not dealing fire or acid damage.

The part of sneak attack you're quoting means you can't use something like a dagger to deal nonlethal damage with a sneak attack, though you could use a weapon that does nonlethal damage normally, such as a sap.

[Necroticplague]

"She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack" sneak attack description in the PHB. Does this mean a rogur can't voluntarily deal nonlethal? Or would the regeneration also block the sneak attack?

That clause is irrelevant. That’s simply saying you can’t have your Sneak Attack be non lethal if the attack is lethal. You are perfectly allowed to have nonlethal sneak attacks if you want to punch someone’s lights out.

Which leads back the main topic: yes, you can use Sneak Attack against creatures with regen. In this case, the weapon would do nonlethal damage, and the sneak attack would also be nonlethal.

For most purposes (main exception being crits), it’s easiest to think of the extra damage from Sneak Attack as being the same as simply having a higher STR modifier. It simply inherits all its types and traits from the original attack.

[Covenant12]

I always read that as a rogue has to wield a weapon effectively to enable sneak attack. Dagger/short sword must be lethal, sap/truncheon must be nonlethal, if you want sneak attack dice. If you take the -4 to-hit to switch type, you don't sneak attack.

A rogue using a dagger effectively against a troll does nonlethal damage, so the sneak attack dice are also nonlethal.

Which makes me wonder: a rogue wielding a torch against a troll trying to be eligible for sneak attack? I'd be very generous with house rules as a DM, but I'm pretty sure we're in house rule territory. For a vanilla +1 dagger though, I only see one way to reasonably rule sneak attack on regenerating creatures.

[Remuko]

I always read that as a rogue has to wield a weapon effectively to enable sneak attack. Dagger/short sword must be lethal, sap/truncheon must be nonlethal, if you want sneak attack dice. If you take the -4 to-hit to switch type, you don't sneak attack.

A rogue using a dagger effectively against a troll does nonlethal damage, so the sneak attack dice are also nonlethal.

Which makes me wonder: a rogue wielding a torch against a troll trying to be eligible for sneak attack? I'd be very generous with house rules as a DM, but I'm pretty sure we're in house rule territory. For a vanilla +1 dagger though, I only see one way to reasonably rule sneak attack on regenerating creatures.

youre interpretation is reasonable but now RAW. You can use a sap to deal a lethal sneak attack if you take the penalty, theres no rule against it.

[Covenant12]

youre interpretation is reasonable but now RAW. You can use a sap to deal a lethal sneak attack if you take the penalty, theres no rule against it.Yeah, looking at SRD you are correct. It has a narrow rule about using lethal weapon as nonlethal in a sneak attack(short version: you can't) but nothing about the reverse.

Under regeneration though, it says damage dealt is "treated as nonlethal damage", not that it actually is nonlethal damage to begin with. I'd argue a rogue's dagger could deal sneak attack damage to a troll, then it would be converted to nonlethal damage. It later describes normal damage as "converting" to nonlethal damage, which to an extent supports my argument.

RAW isn't perfectly clear here though, a strict DM could argue rogues can't sneak attack trolls (unless they have flaming/acid weapons), and I'd strongly disagree but he'd have an argument.

[DrMotives]

This makes me wonder. If I sneak attack with a club, the SA damage is normal bludgeoning damage. If I SA with a flame blade spell, the SA damage is fire as that's all the spell does. But if I SA with a lit torch, is the SA damage bludgeoning, or fire? A hit with a lit torch does both.

[Covenant12]

I actually mentioned torches in my post at one point, but deleted it. Great minds think alike?

Logically I think rogues could choose the SA damage type. If vulnerable to bludgeoning, target the temple or kneecap. If fire, hit an available artery. I think we're fully in houserule territory here though, I don't think a clear RAW answer exists.

For coup de grace or death attack with a torch though, I think its more clear. Only the damage that bypasses regeneration works, so torches aren't great for either. Hope for a natural 1, I guess.

[Vaern]

"Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage."
I would say that you are still dealing lethal damage with your sneak attack, but the target is taking nonlethal damage from it. You are still able to make your sneak attack normally; it's just the way that your target reacts to the damage that is modified.

[Fouredged Sword]

The fire damage from a torch looks like it is treated as bonus damage. You would deal bludgeoning damage just like if you swung a +1 flaming club.

Now, this IS one of the reasons alchemist fire is great for rogues. 2-3d6 fire damage as a touch attack is solid for low level troll slaying.

[Goaty14]

Now, this IS one of the reasons alchemist fire is great for rogues. 2-3d6 fire damage as a touch attack is solid for low level troll slaying.

A bottle of acid is cheaper, and better in every imaginable way (except if you need to start a fire), and doesn't get resisted by nearly everything.

[Fouredged Sword]

A bottle of acid is cheaper, and better in every imaginable way (except if you need to start a fire), and doesn't get resisted by nearly everything.

I generally carry both, and some alchemical lightning.

Touch attack sneak attacks are really useful during levels 3-6 when they are cost effective. Levels 7-12 sees them replaced by wands of cheap short ranged touch spells like decent CL produce flame or orb spells.