Thunderwave vs. retaliation

[holywhippet]

So the former is a spell that inflicts thunder damage on adjacent enemies and, if they fail, a CON save they are pushed away by 10 feet. The latter is an ability that berserker barbarians can get which lets them make a reaction attack on any enemy within 5 feet that does damage to them. Question is, which takes precedence? If the spell pushes the barbarian away they are no longer adjacent to the creature which damaged them so they can't use retaliation. But they are adjacent when they take that damage so in theory they could take the damage, make their attack, then get pushed away. I'm kind of leaning towards the former since the spell is designed to clear space around the caster.

[Vessyra]

Unless stand otherwise, a reaction takes place immediately after the cause of the reaction. So if the barbarian is pushed back, then they can't attack the spell caster that blasted them. (Unless the barbarian has crazy reach)

[leogobsin]

The wording of Thunderwave " On a failed save, a creature takes 2d8 thunder damage and is pushed 10 feet away from you" definitely reads to me as the damage and the pushing occurring simultaneously, so there's no 'space' in between the damage and the push that Retaliation could fit into.

[holywhippet]

Unless stand otherwise, a reaction takes place immediately after the cause of the reaction. So if the barbarian is pushed back, then they can't attack the spell caster that blasted them. (Unless the barbarian has crazy reach)

Crazy reach would not matter, the ability says the target must be within 5 feet. OK, so I'll assume it isn't possible on a failed save.

[Lunali]

Crazy reach would not matter, the ability says the target must be within 5 feet. OK, so I'll assume it isn't possible on a failed save.

Well, one could argue that the creature was within 5 feet when the damage was taken, but the reaction has to be a melee weapon attack, so unless you have crazy reach or only get knocked back 5 ft (wall or some such) you won't be able to return the favor.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Here's the RAW for Reactions, PHB p190:


A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or someone else's.

It's the word "instant" that makes me wonder if the Barbarian should, in fact, get the attack in before being pushed away.

Seems legit.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Crazy reach would not matter, the ability says the target must be within 5 feet. OK, so I'll assume it isn't possible on a failed save.
It says you have to be five feet away when you take the damage to trigger retaliation.

It doesn’t actually say they have to be within 5ft when you counterattack. On the flip side lighting lure which damages the target and drags them to you wouldn’t trip retaliation because they weren’t within 5ft when they took the damage.

[Slipperychicken]

Lore-wise it makes sense for the barbarian to be able to retaliate while pushed away, or afterward if he has long enough reach, so I'd allow it to work.

[JackPhoenix]

It says you have to be five feet away when you take the damage to trigger retaliation.

It doesn’t actually say they have to be within 5ft when you counterattack. On the flip side lighting lure which damages the target and drags them to you wouldn’t trip retaliation because they weren’t within 5ft when they took the damage.

Lightning Lure works the other way: it drags the target towards you and *then* causes damage only if the target ends up in 5' of you.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Lightning Lure works the other way: it drags the target towards you and *then* causes damage only if the target ends up in 5' of you.

Huh, could have sworn it dealt damage then dragged them to you, I was typing on my phone while walking home at the timeso I didn't exactly have a book on hand to look up the spell.

[Whyrocknodie]

The whole point of thunderwave is to clear away enemies so they can't hit you. Having some chimp with an axe able to hit you as a 'response' to it should definitely be right out, even if there is some potential exploit in the reading!

[Boci]

The whole point of thunderwave is to clear away enemies so they can't hit you. Having some chimp with an axe able to hit you as a 'response' to it should definitely be right out, even if there is some potential exploit in the reading!

Worth noting, a chimp with an axe and enough levels in berseker to get retaliation (14).

[Mellack]

Reactions take place after the triggering event is completed unless specified otherwise. That means the barbarian is too far away if they fail their save. It is the same timing as the mage slayer feat.

[Snails]

The whole point of thunderwave is to clear away enemies so they can't hit you. Having some chimp with an axe able to hit you as a 'response' to it should definitely be right out, even if there is some potential exploit in the reading!

I am with that. Barbarians who lose out are the ones who are shocked (no pun intended) by their failure to make a measly Con save.

[furby076]

Barbarian is no longer 5 feet, so even if his reaction happens a fraction of a second after the trigger, the trigger already happened and he is no longer 5 feet away.

Now, as fluff, I would say the force of being pushed away is what caused the damage...virtually instantaneous...like a concussive blast...what comes first, the damage or you being pushed away? I would say the pushing...it has overlap for sure, hence if you are in an enclosed area, a concussive blast is much worse