Question Magic Intiate Feat-- Warlocks and Bards

[Talionis]

I have a player who has a Paladin that wants to take Magic Initiate to get Shileigh, but wants to learn it from a Warlock or Bard so it will key off Charisma.

Does anyone think this would cause a balance issue? Would you consider this RAW and RAI? I think you could make an argument since Bard and Warlock can access those cantrips as Warlock spells that its not too far fetched...

In a lot of ways I like this better than a one level dip in Hexblade, which feels forced... what does the playground think?

[CTurbo]

I does pose a balance issue IMO. A Paladin that can only worry about focusing on Cha has a huge advantage. I'd rather he spend a level on Hex instead of gifting that power to him for just a small feat tax.

But even then, I don't like when my players multiclass for purely mechanical reasons either. If you're a Paladin, and you want a level of Hexblade, you better have a good explanation for it.

[Talionis]

The player also loses a bonus action to activate the club, but you do pose a good point.

I think this player intends to dump strength so he wont be able to multiclass, and most of my players do multiclass, which maybe why it didnt seem to be such a big balance issue.

[Sorlock Master]

Yeah...no. That is going to create a situation where all he needs is CH for his modifier for everything.

If he's that worried about it tell him to take 1 level in Hexblade and get a spell slot, and have more weapon options.

[TheFryingPen]

RAW Shillelagh is only on the Druid's spell list. I'd wager this is RAI as well. With MI, you can only get it with WIS as casting stat.

[Talionis]

Yeah...no. That is going to create a situation where all he needs is CH for his modifier for everything.

If he's that worried about it tell him to take 1 level in Hexblade and get a spell slot, and have more weapon options.

Im not sure why a one level dip in Hexblade is better... Loosing an ASI is a bigger loss than a character level, you get 20 character levels, you only get 5 or 6 ASI unless you are fighter or Rogue.

Hexblade lets him use any w weapon not just a stick, it no longer eats a bonus action.

That one level of Hexblade grants a lot lot more mechanically and i would argue the ASI is more costly than the level loss.

[Talionis]

RAW Shillelagh is only on the Druid's spell list. I'd wager this is RAI as well. With MI, you can only get it with WIS as casting stat.
But never the less there are Bards and Warlocks that know them based on Charisma. They treat them like Bard and Warlock spells. Does that technically put them on those spell lists?

[Xihirli]

No. No it does not.

[Cerefel]

The spell is on neither list. Warlocks and bards are allowed to get spells from other spell lists, and they treat them as warlock or bard spells respectively, but that in no way adds it to either class's spell list.

[sophontteks]

You would have needed 13 strength to multiclass. Add that to the cost.

[Talionis]

First, Anyone else think it could be RAW?

Second does anyone think at level 7 say a Paladin 7 who used one of his ASIs for magic initiate for a Charisma Shillelagh is mechanically stronger than the Paladin 6/Hexblade 1.

The dip of Hexblade is much more powerful! The 13 Strength is a cost, but not much...

[Tanarii]

No it's not RAW, and yes a level 7 paladin with a Warlock MI for Cha Shillelagh is more powerful than a level 6/1 multiclass. They're one level closer to Paladin 8, then 9, then 10, etc. They get the same number of cantrips, get Shillelagh sooner (Feat vs lvl 3 + Pact investment), but don't have 2 castings of the lvl 1 ability. But most importantly they don't need to invest in a 13 Str, which is quite an large investment in ability scores.

[Kadesh]

First, Anyone else think it could be RAW?

Second does anyone think at level 7 say a Paladin 7 who used one of his ASIs for magic initiate for a Charisma Shillelagh is mechanically stronger than the Paladin 6/Hexblade 1.

The dip of Hexblade is much more powerful! The 13 Strength is a cost, but not much...

Playing a Pal 5/Hexblade 3. I'm crying out for better saves.

[Talionis]

No it's not RAW, and yes a level 7 paladin with a Warlock MI for Cha Shillelagh is more powerful than a level 6/1 multiclass. They're one level closer to Paladin 8, then 9, then 10, etc. They get the same number of cantrips, get Shillelagh sooner (Feat vs lvl 3 + Pact investment), but don't have 2 castings of the lvl 1 ability. But most importantly they don't need to invest in a 13 Str, which is quite an large investment in ability scores.
But they are just one level behind in casting. Campaigns rarely reach level 20. So not reaching the capstone isnt a real cost.

Paladin is a half caster, so access to new spells is every 4 levels, making the damage of a half level dip half what it is for a full caster.

Yeah you put off your next Paladin level off by a whole whopping level, but you are forgetting how much you get in one level of Warlock. Eldritch blast on a Paladin is ridiculously useful, that second level of Warlock is appealing to get Agonizing blast, but even without it, the Eldritch blast is a great ranged cantrip. All the extra cantrips and spells known from Warlock spells known, the recharging spell slot. One level of Warlock is the best dip in the game.

[Talionis]

Playing a Pal 5/Hexblade 3. I'm crying out for better saves.

Youll get there next level. Im assuming. Which is my point. Yes you have an opportunity cost but you will level up and get most of the options.

[sophontteks]

But they are just one level behind in casting. Campaigns rarely reach level 20. So not reaching the capstone isnt a real cost.

Paladin is a half caster, so access to new spells is every 4 levels, making the damage of a half level dip half what it is for a full caster.

Yeah you put off your next Paladin level off by a whole whopping level, but you are forgetting how much you get in one level of Warlock. Eldritch blast on a Paladin is ridiculously useful, that second level of Warlock is appealing to get Agonizing blast, but even without it, the Eldritch blast is a great ranged cantrip. All the extra cantrips and spells known from Warlock spells known, the recharging spell slot. One level of Warlock is the best dip in the game.

Most games end before level 20 so one level behind on all abilities is a big deal.

[Kadesh]

Youll get there next level. Im assuming. Which is my point. Yes you have an opportunity cost but you will level up and get most of the options.

No. Continuing to level Hexblade, because story reasons (just come into possession of the weapon to which I'm bonded: a corrupt spear of my paladin order). The thing is, do i go for Saves? Or do i continue to progress in Hexblade, which is better? 2 levels of Paladin is like 2 months playing. But I want to go for Hexblade 5 so as to get dual Smite combined with my Shield master Adv, and 19-20 Crit Range. Paladin is now mostly providing Extra Attack, Smite Battery, and Call Steed.

[Talionis]

Most games end before level 20 so one level behind on all abilities is a big deal.
No. Its not. Its just a trade. Warlock provides a lot. You still eventually get those levels you put off but the capstone. For full casters you are putting off big benefits but most class abilities are not Quantum Leaps. Even if you put off a powerful ability like Paladin 6, you can get it later and that powerful ability isnt worth as much as a one level dip in Warlock, especially when you arent saying youll never get it you are just putting it off for a level.

Warlock 1 is a Quantum Leap, a lot of new abilities. For one level.

[sophontteks]

Well, I definately disagree. I would rate all of the paladins abilities very high. And being a level behind is as good as not having them when you are not at that level. Takes a long time to transition from level 5 to 6 and 6 to 7 and thats the level you will likely be for a big hunk of the campaign.

But thats fine. I'm not a big fan of multiclassing anyway.

Regardless, bards and warlocks do not get access to shilleligh in RAW or RAI. If your low enough level just ask if you can pump up your strength to 13 and multiclass.

[Xihirli]

Why ask the question? Your mind seems pretty made up. If you want to allow it in your game, go ahead.

[Ganymede]

It is homebrew that makes a character more powerful than the by-the-book option. That immediately makes it suspect to me.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I have a player who has a Paladin that wants to take Magic Initiate to get Shileigh, but wants to learn it from a Warlock or Bard so it will key off Charisma.

Does anyone think this would cause a balance issue? Would you consider this RAW and RAI? I think you could make an argument since Bard and Warlock can access those cantrips as Warlock spells that its not too far fetched...

In a lot of ways I like this better than a one level dip in Hexblade, which feels forced... what does the playground think?

Warlocks and Bards both have unique class features (Pact of the Tome and Magical Secrets, respectively) which allow them to change the casting ability score for spells borrowed from other classes, RAW.

Magic Initiate offers no such benefit; it specifically states in the feat description which casting ability score is used for each class spell list. It confers no options to change any of them, RAW.

[Talionis]

Why ask the question? Your mind seems pretty made up. If you want to allow it in your game, go ahead.
I was trying to see if i missed anything.

My gut is to allow it. I do agree being able to dump strength is a big benefit.

I allow multiclassing all the time but i am suspect of Hexblade, especially for dips. Precisely because it makes a Paladin SAD instead of MAD.

If I dont allow a Charisma Shillagh, hell probably multiclass into Hexblade Warlock... I am surprised most people favor the Hexblade dip over Magic Initiate.

I find the first level of Hexblade over powered. Dont mistake me thinking the level six saving throw ability as weak, it can be obnoxiously good, but i think that first level of Hexblade is stronger. And taking the level of Hexblade and becoming SAD makes the level six Paladin Aura that much stronger faster since youll be maxing Charisma.

I also think Shillagh is a little clunky. It eats a bonus action.

Another interesting thought is that Wisdom is a more powerful stat than Charisma. Wisdom saves are very important and Wisdom for perception is important.

[Mellack]

I was trying to see if i missed anything.

My gut is to allow it. I do agree being able to dump strength is a big benefit.

I allow multiclassing all the time but i am suspect of Hexblade, especially for dips. Precisely because it makes a Paladin SAD instead of MAD.

If I dont allow a Charisma Shillagh, hell probably multiclass into Hexblade Warlock... I am surprised most people favor the Hexblade dip over Magic Initiate.

I find the first level of Hexblade over powered. Dont mistake me thinking the level six saving throw ability as weak, it can be obnoxiously good, but i think that first level of Hexblade is stronger. And taking the level of Hexblade and becoming SAD makes the level six Paladin Aura that much stronger faster since youll be maxing Charisma.

I also think Shillagh is a little clunky. It eats a bonus action.

Another interesting thought is that Wisdom is a more powerful stat than Charisma. Wisdom saves are very important and Wisdom for perception is important.

By requiring the 13 in strength, that makes them less SAD. Also, how are they getting armor class? They may get to use Chr for attacks, but they need either Dex for a good AC or Str for heavy armors. And of course they need a decent Con, and you just said Wis was also important. If you require the multiclass restrictions they need to spread out their abilities more.

[CTurbo]

I was trying to see if i missed anything.

My gut is to allow it. I do agree being able to dump strength is a big benefit.

I allow multiclassing all the time but i am suspect of Hexblade, especially for dips. Precisely because it makes a Paladin SAD instead of MAD.

If I dont allow a Charisma Shillagh, hell probably multiclass into Hexblade Warlock... I am surprised most people favor the Hexblade dip over Magic Initiate.

I find the first level of Hexblade over powered. Dont mistake me thinking the level six saving throw ability as weak, it can be obnoxiously good, but i think that first level of Hexblade is stronger. And taking the level of Hexblade and becoming SAD makes the level six Paladin Aura that much stronger faster since youll be maxing Charisma.

I also think Shillagh is a little clunky. It eats a bonus action.

Another interesting thought is that Wisdom is a more powerful stat than Charisma. Wisdom saves are very important and Wisdom for perception is important.


As I stated above, I wouldn't just allow a trivial dip in Hexblade without a good reason either. I hate when people try to min/max mechanics at the expense of character story.

[Kadesh]

As I stated above, I wouldn't just allow a trivial dip in Hexblade without a good reason either. I hate when people try to min/max mechanics at the expense of character story.

Why? Are all Paladins exactly the same? Can the Hexblade Curse not be refluffed as a Paladin directing their fury? Why does the fluff of what someone wrote to explain the mechanics trump what somebody else wants to write? Why is there a complaint over Hexblade and not a Wizard?

[CTurbo]

Why? Are all Paladins exactly the same? Can the Hexblade Curse not be refluffed as a Paladin directing their fury? Why does the fluff of what someone wrote to explain the mechanics trump what somebody else wants to write? Why is there a complaint over Hexblade and not a Wizard?


I didn't say I didn't allow it. I just said they need a legitimate reason story wise. Not just "well I want to be able to attack with Cha so I'm gonna take a level of Hexblade."

[Tanarii]

I didn't say I didn't allow it. I just said they need a legitimate reason story wise. Not just "well I want to be able to attack with Cha so I'm gonna take a level of Hexblade."
The problem with those kinds of requirements are they can quickly lead to disagreements about what's legitimate. Is it legitimate to want the mechanical power, then come up with a reasonable downtime reason why it works? Or does it have to flow directly from adventuring / table time? If the latter, does the campaign allow a PC to drag her buddies on such personalized quests? Is training time required? Does it have to come "naturally" from in-game events, so there is no question that it's a "story" reason and not just mechanical? Or are like the Supreme Court, you'll know it when you see it?

I'm not a fan of weak archetypes and optimization Multiclassing either, especially after 3e showed us how easily that is abused. But limiting based on "story" needs additional elaboration to the players. (Not to us. We don't care.)

[CTurbo]

The problem with those kinds of requirements are they can quickly lead to disagreements about what's legitimate. Is it legitimate to want the mechanical power, then come up with a reasonable downtime reason why it works? Or does it have to flow directly from adventuring / table time? If the latter, does the campaign allow a PC to drag her buddies on such personalized quests? Is training time required? Does it have to come "naturally" from in-game events, so there is no question that it's a "story" reason and not just mechanical? Or are like the Supreme Court, you'll know it when you see it?

I'm not a fan of weak archetypes and optimization Multiclassing either, especially after 3e showed us how easily that is abused. But limiting based on "story" needs additional elaboration to the players. (Not to us. We don't care.)



I agree. I've never outright denied a multiclass request/attempt. It's just something I talk about it session zero. I'm really lenient and almost always let my players be way more overpowered than normal like offering rolling stats, free feats, and even free levels in some classes. I just ask them to not try to munchkin their characters by trying to exploit silly things.

[Kadesh]

I didn't say I didn't allow it. I just said they need a legitimate reason story wise. Not just "well I want to be able to attack with Cha so I'm gonna take a level of Hexblade."

I'm still not sure I particularly understand why a half second thought up story is legitimately any better than someone saying they like the mechanical interaction. Does a Fighter have to justify taking a Prodigy on their Shield Master? The two mesh mechanically well, and it makes no sense that a supposed "prodigy" randomly dinged into transitioning to get a +3 or +4 suddenly to a check that he made 7 or 8 times times in every combat to date.

[Tanarii]

I'm still not sure I particularly understand why a half second thought up story is legitimately any better than someone saying they like the mechanical interaction. Does a Fighter have to justify taking a Prodigy on their Shield Master? The two mesh mechanically well, and it makes no sense that a supposed "prodigy" randomly dinged into transitioning to get a +3 or +4 suddenly to a check that he made 7 or 8 times times in every combat to date.
Most class abilities are extensions of the archetype. A 1st level in a new archetype is an entire package of (usually) wildly different features. It's usually considerably more jarring a tansition to add them.

Of course, you can always just assume you've been looking over the shoulder of another party members the entire time, saving yourself a century of grueling training.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html

[MephitBlue]

For me, Warlocks always seem to be a natural class to multiclass in story wise as long as the DM is willing to work it into the story. A Hexblade Warlock literally finds a weapon or some other artifact that forms a bond with the character. It is easy to say story wise that this bond is forced on the character when they first touch the weapon, no training necessary.

Warlocks are the ones who cheated to the knowledge, instead of going through all the training ;).

If you don't want the player to take a one level dip into Hexblade and still want to let them use Charisma as an attack stat, I'd just homebrew a feat that lets you use Charisma as the basis for your attacks with a one handed weapon. No extra spells or anything. Thematically I just can't picture the idea of a Paladin beating someone over the head with a stick.

As a player, given the choice between taking a one level dip in Hexblade at the expense of a main class level or homebrewed version of the Magic Initiate feat, I'd take the one level dip. The story is there for how you got this ability and you get a spell slot that recharges every short rest. I wouldn't even take Edritch Blast as a cantrip, instead I'd go for something like Booming Blade. Paladins are usually front line fighters and ranged spell attacks in melee are a problem unless you take the Crossbow Expert feat.