20 werewolves vs. 500 soldiers

[Boci]

Context: An army of 500 has been sent by to occupy a mining village currently controlled by a warlord. The warlord lacks the men to properly defend the village, and so sends a tribe of 20 werewolves to prevent the army from reaching the village. The soldiers are infantry and archers, no cavalry, no silver weapons, no magic, no alchemy (yes I know that's not the most likely scenario, but its not really the point). The solider don't know they will encounter the werewolves. The werewolves do not use advanced tactics, they run towards the nearest solider and start chomping.

So what happens?

By RAW, it seems pretty clear. The werewolves salughter the soldiers until they break, in no danger from the soliders weapons. Once the soliders break, the werewolves hunt them down with their wolf form's higher speed. Some will probably escape, but that's the best the soldiers can hope for. They will suffer heavy losses and be scattered, they certainly cannot achieve their objective of occupying the village.

But, DMs can makr their own rules for situations like these, which the base rules of D&D weren't designed to cover. If the DM thinks this aproach is apropriate, here are some ways they could cover the army having some options:

Pain: Sure, were wolves are immune to non-magical weapons not made of silver. That doesn't mean having 3 iron spears thrust into you doesn't hurt like hell. With this approach, if the soliders can hold their ground and suffer some losses (bug if, but not impossible depending on training and moral), the werewolves can be driven back after they suffered enough. This is a short term solution, but will give the soliders time to better prepare for their return.

Exhaustion: Sure, by RAW a werewolf can chew through 25 people, chasing down any who run away, with no ill effect. But a DM might rule that this scenario stamina becomes relevant, and the werewolves will run out of it ebfore the soldiers run out of bodies. This could let them escape, or make applying Fire or Restraining easier.

Fire: The soldiers need to inflict damage that isn't weapon damage. Without magic and alchemical supplies this is difficult, but fire is an option. Still, setting a fire and handing out torches whilst werewolves rip into your lines, that will take a lot of courage, and more importantly some very efficient, firm leadership in shall we say, less than ideal circumstances.

Restraining: Grabbing doesn't do much against a werewolf, try it and they will likely escape by chewing tyour arm off so you are no longer holding them. But that assume ones person. With one solider on each limb and a fifth holding them in a choke hold, and more standing by to help, a werewolf could be rendered pretty helpless, and then ropes or straps could be added. Doing this in the heat of battle is by no means easy, but it beats hoping your iron sword is actually silver.

So how would you handle the scenario? By RAW, werewolves win, or can the soliders hold their own? What tactics would be most relevant? DId I miss any?

Personally I would need to establish if the army held. Assuming this is on the side line and not directly relating to the PCs, this would be abstrsacted down to a single will save. If they fail, that's likely it, the army is broken and they won't regroup well enough to drive back the werewolves, but if they pass, the werewolves skill 70 soliders and lose 5 of their own between fire and restraining, then they break. They reform, but don't push for a full on confrontation again, rather harrying the army, hastening the clock on which they must take the village, but not making it impossible.

[JNAProductions]

Depends on the army. A group of ragtag peasants, with pitchforks and rusty blades? They're going to break when it's clear they can't do damage normally, and the werewolves will hunt them down till they get tired/bored.

A well-disciplined army of professional soldiers, who've experienced (if not prepped for) exotic scenarios? They won't break, they'll grapple, they'll find out fire works, and they'll burn the frumpdiddlers down.

[Boci]

A well-disciplined army of professional soldiers, who've experienced (if not prepped for) exotic scenarios? They won't break, they'll grapple, they'll find out fire works, and they'll burn the frumpdiddlers down.

And what you would estimate their losses at in order to achieve that?

[JNAProductions]

And what you would estimate their losses at in order to achieve that?

Depends how strong the werewolves are.

But, assuming the following scenario:

The soldiers open, at a distance, with arrows. They see they have no effect after the second volley (first might've been a fluke) and stow their bows, drawing shields. When the werewolves close in, they spend a few brief moments attacking with blades, but when those do nothing, drop them, and start trying to grapple them.

A few soldiers go down in this time, but within a minute, the werewolves are so dogpiled they can't do diddly. Whoever isn't grappling them finds some chain and rope, and the werewolves are securely tied and chained. Once that's done, they either take them prisoner or light them on fire.

Overall casualties? Imma say beween 1.5 to 4 per werewolf, for a range of 30-80 dead.

But, a lot more would be injured, and possibly infected.

[MeeposFire]

You say they are not expecting werewolves but an important question is whether they know that werewolves exist and if they do know they exist do they know anything about dealing with them at all.

[StoicLeaf]

The warlord lacks the men to properly defend the village
Awwwww yis, let's go curbstomp a villain!


and so sends a tribe of 20 werewolves
Wait, what?
That's like Legolas saying: "dang, I've run out of arrows, time to whip out the ol' gauss rifle.."


Snark aside, I really dislike the immunity to damage on "fleshy" creatures; I'd change that to resistance and regeneration.
Otherwise, how do werewolves solve their pack disputes? Tiddly winks? Checkers?

[holywhippet]

Casualties would depend on the level of the soldiers. Are they level 1 grunts or level 3-5 veteran fighters? At level 1 they would have enough HP that it would take a full turn for a werewolf to take out a soldier. At level 3-5 they'd take a few rounds per soldier and the werewolves don't reeally have that much time if they aren't attacking as a co-ordinated force but as individuals. An army of 500 would have lantern oil and torches so they could burn them to death without much problem if they pinned them down.

This assumes that the soldiers know what to do of course. If they panic or have no idea about lycanthropes they could panic rather than grapple.

The werewolves would be better off attacking at night when the army is mostly asleep or engage in repeated hit and run attacks.

[Boci]

Depends how strong the werewolves are.

But, assuming the following scenario:

The soldiers open, at a distance, with arrows. They see they have no effect after the second volley (first might've been a fluke) and stow their bows, drawing shields. When the werewolves close in, they spend a few brief moments attacking with blades, but when those do nothing, drop them, and start trying to grapple them.

A few soldiers go down in this time, but within a minute, the werewolves are so dogpiled they can't do diddly. Whoever isn't grappling them finds some chain and rope, and the werewolves are securely tied and chained. Once that's done, they either take them prisoner or light them on fire.

Overall casualties? Imma say beween 1.5 to 4 per werewolf, for a range of 30-80 dead.

But, a lot more would be injured, and possibly infected.

I think you're being a bit genereous in favour of the soldiers here. You've given them two full volleys of arrows at a distance, when the werewolves are a smaller group who know they are hunting the soliders. The soldiers just know to be prepared in general. Plus, werewolves have pretty decent stealth modifier, so its must more likely the soliders are alerted when the wolves start tearing into them. I also think is a minute is a very optimistic estimate for how long it take for the solider to recieve and execute the order to dogpile the werewolves.


You say they are not expecting werewolves but an important question is whether they know that werewolves exist and if they do know they exist do they know anything about dealing with them at all.

That is a very valid question yes. They almost certainly do know werewolves exist, but how much is harder to pin down, and very important to decide the outcome.


Casualties would depend on the level of the soldiers. Are they level 1 grunts or level 3-5 veteran fighters? At level 1 they would have enough HP that it would take a full turn for a werewolf to take out a soldier. At level 3-5 they'd take a few rounds per soldier and the werewolves don't reeally have that much time if they aren't attacking as a co-ordinated force but as individuals. An army of 500 would have lantern oil and torches so they could burn them to death without much problem if they pinned them down.

Interesting, the MM doesn't really have a good solider stand in. I guess I'd give soldier the thug profile. So cr 1/2, but still, 32 hit points is quite a bit to chew through.


Wait, what?
That's like Legolas saying: "dang, I've run out of arrows, time to whip out the ol' gauss rifle.."

When I say lacking his own men I meant the warlord dsoesn't have any spare to redeploy on short notice.

Discipline and loyalty tend to rank higher on "what makes a good solider" than strength and resilience. Werewolves are viscious in combat, but lack of training and their tribal loyalties will likely make them less preferred for military deployment. Still, a useful tool to have.

[Naanomi]

Hastily dug pittraps and snares are the werewolf hunter’s friend. You can still trap what you can’t kill

[Boci]

Hastily dug pittraps and snares are the werewolf hunter’s friend. You can still trap what you can’t kill

Without silver the damage of such traps won't matter, and I doubt a werewolf who can freely shift between wolf and humanoid is going to be trapped by hastily dug pits, especially with other pack mates to help them. The soliders also need to survive first contact to start digging traps, and wolves won't neccissarily use roads, so anticipating where to put them would be difficult.

[Naanomi]

Without silver the damage of such traps won't matter, and I doubt a werewolf who can freely shift between wolf and humanoid is going to be trapped by hastily dug pits, especially with other pack mates to help them. The soliders also need to survive first contact to start digging traps, and wolves won't neccissarily use roads, so anticipating where to put them would be difficult.
I’m not saying it is a path to likely victory, but it is something that can be tried beyond ‘line up for my turn to die’

[Unoriginal]

Werewolves aren't immune to being strangled to death.

[Boci]

Werewolves aren't immune to being strangled to death.

So that's a variation on the grapple rule. How would you handle that as a DM? How many casualties do the soliders take strangling werewolves?


I’m not saying it is a path to likely victory, but it is something that can be tried beyond ‘line up for my turn to die’

Yes, but there are other strategies available, like fire and grappling/dogpiling that seem like better options.

[Unoriginal]

So that's a variation on the grapple rule. How would you handle that as a DM? How many casualties do the soliders take strangling werewolves?

Depends how easily they can swarm the wolves.

I'd say that narratively, 2-3 deaths per werewolves would make sense, if the soldiers are veterans and have someone smart to give instruction..

[Lombra]

Werewolves aren't particularly strong (by adventurer standard) so if the small army has chains, nets, and whatnot in large quantities, and know that their weapons are useless, in a 25-1 ratio the werewolves are likely going to get neutralized.I would assume that the army would lose between 20% and 30% of men in this case.

But that's just because the werewolves are playing it "stupid", with careful ambushes they'd likely tear down the group of soldiers, if they have the time to do so.

[Naanomi]

Yes, but there are other strategies available, like fire and grappling/dogpiling that seem like better options.
Grappling is like a pit trap, except it inherently puts you in ‘I’m being clawed to death’ for the duration... I can see it as a suicide tactic to heroically protect other soldiers so they can flee and hide, but not anything productive in the long term

[willdaBEAST]

I don't see the soldiers doing very well here. If they aren't aware of the werewolves, the army's likely going to be ambushed by the superior mobility of the werewolves. Either being attacked in a flank or from behind. The werewolves also aren't going to be mindless about it. I see them going for command or supplies. Maybe they aren't going to run complicated guerrilla tactics, but they also aren't going to stand in a field waiting for an army.

There are a lot of other factors, what's the terrain like? An army in an open field is going to be able to dog-pile and restrain werewolves if they don't break, but any kind of choke point or trail through a forest is going to prevent the army from using it's numerical advantage.

If I was DMing that kind of situation, I'd have the werewolves attack successfully a few times, causing pretty heavy casualties. The army recognizes the threat and has bunkered down/changed their tactics to improve their likeliness to survive.

Another big factor is the curse of lycanthropy. Not all the victims of the werewolves are going to die, what triggers their first transformation? A full moon? When is the next full moon? I envision the army being harried and then a desperate battle occurring once injured soldiers start transforming.

[Kane0]

I wouldn't be betting on the soldiers, even in ideal circumstances like being ready with traps and fires. If you're looking into effects beyond the RAW then the one you should be looking at first is morale, and the soldiers will be pretty short on it once they see the werewolves ignoring their weapons.

The best bet they would have is surviving the first attack without routing, then dealing with the lycanthropy outbreak and finding a nice place to bunker down with adjusted tactics (get some fires going, dig some pits, melt down some silver coins into sling bullets, etc). The question is, how thorough are the werewolves going to be in that initial slaughter and how disciplined are the soldiers?

[Naanomi]

Is there some sort of rule for ‘dog piling and restraining’ that I’m not familiar with? Or are people just making up homebrew scenarios? From what I know, grappling rules never really hinder the werewolf from ripping up its attackers no matter how many are piled on... you’ll need some mechanical restraints (or a deep pit) to get out of attack range, no amount of wrestling (or wrestlers) will do it

[Xihirli]

If you shove the werewolf prone then grapple them, they’re pinned with disadvantage on all attacks.

[JackPhoenix]

Threat of the curse (if the soldiers are aware of it, even if not, the werewolves may engage in some psychological warfare... shouting "Bite as many of them as you can, so our pack can grow" or something like that would work) will be a big factor for the army's morale. Soldiers won't be willing to move in to wrestle with monsters that are stronger and tougher than them, and can turn you into another monster if it bites them.

Werewolf mobility is another advantage. They don't have to destroy the army in one go. Attack from ambush, hit the soldiers from multiple direction, kill few men and wound and/or infect others, retreat before others can arrive. The army either has to set up defensive positions which slow it down, and decide how to deal with potential infected in their own ranks, or push forward and be vulnerable to future attacks.

They can also attack at range, in which case the soldiers have no effective countermeasure. They can throw spears or use bows or other proper ranged weapons while being immune to any arrows coming their way, once again retreating before any melee threat can reach them.

And if there's someone using traps, pits and what not, it won't be the army: they are the invading force, the werewolves are on the defensive and have time to prepare the terrain.

And generally, the average soldier is a Guard NPC. Not much of an opponent for a werewolf.

[Hawkstar]

... where did the Warlord manage to find 20 werewolves collectively less intelligent than a single Moon Moon?

[Sorlock Master]

500 soldiers will have probably 10-20 Captins/Commanders that would know right away what to do. The Werewolves would get slaughtered and the soldiers would lose few if any.

[Naanomi]

The Werewolves would get slaughtered and the soldiers would lose few if any.
Even if their commanders have perfect knowledge of the werewolfs’ stat block... how are they slaughtering them?

[Spore]

if you fight werewolves without the appropriate weapons you deserve to die. if your werewolves fight enemies outnumbering them that have silvered weapons, they deserve to die.

the following will likely happen: the force attacks the wolves with tactics and/or fire. if the werewolves can set up an ambush, they'd likely will and loose MAAAYbe 4-5 members. if the ambush is scouted and avoided, the guards are decimated (500 to 50) and the werewolves are almost wiped out. 2-3 stragglers would naturally flee still.

[Boci]

... where did the Warlord manage to find 20 werewolves collectively less intelligent than a single Moon Moon?

Because if the werewolves used advanced tactics, or really any tactics of any complexity, they would win, and that's not what the thread is about.


Is there some sort of rule for ‘dog piling and restraining’ that I’m not familiar with? Or are people just making up homebrew scenarios? From what I know, grappling rules never really hinder the werewolf from ripping up its attackers no matter how many are piled on... you’ll need some mechanical restraints (or a deep pit) to get out of attack range, no amount of wrestling (or wrestlers) will do it

I mentioned it in the OP. If you have four solders, each grabbing a limb, and a fifth one holding you in a choke hold, a reasonable DM will likely rule that leaves you helpless until you can escape, not just grabed or restrained.

[MaxWilson]

Awwwww yis, let's go curbstomp a villain!


Wait, what?
That's like Legolas saying: "dang, I've run out of arrows, time to whip out the ol' gauss rifle.."


Snark aside, I really dislike the immunity to damage on "fleshy" creatures; I'd change that to resistance and regeneration.
Otherwise, how do werewolves solve their pack disputes? Tiddly winks? Checkers?

So much this.

Regen 10 HP/turn, except damage from silver, is the way to go for werewolves. Add resistance to normal weapons if desired.

[Sorlock Master]

Even if their commanders have perfect knowledge of the werewolfs’ stat block... how are they slaughtering them?

Here's what I would do. Form up 50 men to receive the charge. While they are doing that, have another group of 100 flank them from either side (50 per side). Have 20 light lanterns and another 60 light torches. When an order is given have the two flanks shift to enclose the werewolves, and throw lanterns into the mob. Have the torch bearers waiting for any that manage to jump the line. Use nets to restrain them then grapple and restrain. Burned to death with torchs.

Keep in mind even if you were to roll everything out you would only lose 20 soldiers.

[BeefGood]

Is there some sort of rule for ‘dog piling and restraining’ that I’m not familiar with? Or are people just making up homebrew scenarios?
No and yes, respectively. The rules don’t say much, if anything, about physically subduing a creature—other than killing it via combat mechanics.
This is a reason I’ve never quite understood assertions that in 5e, a pack of goblins is still a threat to a high-level character. At range, sure, because very many goblins could be within bowshot. But there’s a limit to the number of goblins that can be in melee range, and the high-level character will kill them quickly.

[Boci]

So much this.

Regen 10 HP/turn, except damage from silver, is the way to go for werewolves. Add resistance to normal weapons if desired.

Worth noting that's not how regeneration works in 5e. Regen doesn't function in the round when damage by X was taken, but it HP is recovered in subsequent rounds. This would give lycantrhopes a unique mechanic, but would avoid some issues with flat out immunity to mundane steel.

Unless you meant regular regeneration and the "except silver" was just shorthand, in which case, sorry and nevermind.

[holywhippet]

No and yes, respectively. The rules don’t say much, if anything, about physically subduing a creature—other than killing it via combat mechanics.
This is a reason I’ve never quite understood assertions that in 5e, a pack of goblins is still a threat to a high-level character. At range, sure, because very many goblins could be within bowshot. But there’s a limit to the number of goblins that can be in melee range, and the high-level character will kill them quickly.

Well the grapple rules would allow you to hold a target in position. If soldiers worked in two man teams then one man could do the grappling while another could assist giving him advantage on the grapple. If you surround a werewolf you could have 4 people grappling and 4 assisting or even 8 grappling while assisting each other. That means 4/8 soldiers grappling with advantage while the werewolf needs to make 4/8 rolls to escape, arguably with disadvantage. The soldiers would have ropes and could tie up the werewolves rendering them incapacitated. Then they could just burn them.

[Hawkstar]

Because if the werewolves used advanced tactics, or really any tactics of any complexity, they would win, and that's not what the thread is about.I'd imagine the werewolves would at least use basic pack tactics. The soldiers should have enough skill at arms and numbers to avoid being completely annihilated.

Anyway, I was thinking the situation would pretty much be "The Soldiers would pretty much route. There's no way the "Grapple the werewolves to try and restrain and murder them" would work, because I doubt the soldiers have the Grappler feat. In all practicality, not even military discipline will convince a guy to go "I'll hold this thing down while" as it gets interrupted by "AAAAAAAGH IT'S EATING MY FACE AND TEARING OUT MY INTESTINES AGGHHH! NOT MY SPLEEN!!"

If the soldiers have weapons that can hurt the werewolves (At least a few weapons, like fire or officers with silvered weapons), they'd go for stalling tactics (Taking the dodge action mechanically, fluff-wise fending the wolves off with their weapons and shields) until they can bring their effective weapons to bear against the wolves. If the individual soldiers are tough enough to withstand at least a few of the werewolf attacks, they could draw out the stalling by trading out soldiers as they get tired and injured (But this risks Werewolfpocalypse).

Without weapons to fight the werewolves, it would be a bloody route for the soldiers. It won't be "20 werewolves kill and eat 500 soldiers", but there would be some pretty significant casualties because the only strategy that will work is "Retreat, leaving a few poor sods behind to die to tie up the werewolves". In fact, I doubt the werewolves would even kill 100 before the soldiers escape.


Werewolves aren't immune to being strangled to death.Being strangled to death isn't even a mechanic. If we're going ad-hoc here, you'd need a silver garrote to actually obstruct the trachea's function enough to strangle them.


Snark aside, I really dislike the immunity to damage on "fleshy" creatures; I'd change that to resistance and regeneration.
Otherwise, how do werewolves solve their pack disputes? Tiddly winks? Checkers?Werewolves solved pack disputes through loud arguments with a strong physical component, knowing they cant' actually kill or even actually hurt each other. While the disputes can get snarly and snarly, they're really just shouting matches.

Werewolf hides flat out no-sell physical damage from non-silver weapons. Not only can the flesh not be broken by such weapons, but bludgeon weapons just bounce off the hide.

[Boci]

Werewolf hides flat out no-sell physical damage from non-silver weapons. Not only can the flesh not be broken by such weapons, but bludgeon weapons just bounce off the hide.

I don't think that's RAW. I don't think there's an answer one way or another in the books. They do not take HP damage, but if that's because the knife fails to cut, or the wound heals a split second after the cut is made seems up to the DM to fluff.

[Sorlock Master]

Being strangled to death isn't even a mechanic. If we're going ad-hoc here, you'd need a silver garrote to actually obstruct the trachea's function enough to strangle them.

Being strangled to death is a mechanic. It's called suffocation.

"A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).

When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.

For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 hit points."

Problem is Werewolves can hold thier breath for 3 minutes or 180 rounds there gonna get out sooner or later.

[Sorlock Master]

I don't think that's RAW. I don't think there's an answer one way or another in the books. They do not take HP damage, but if that's because the knife fails to cut, or the wound heals a split second after the cut is made seems up to the DM to fluff.

Imagine Wolverine type regen.

[sophontteks]

Depends on the soldier so much.

Give me 500 varangian guard. Viking elite in three layers of armor wielding two-handed axes. They wouldn't break. They never break. Best case scenario for the werewolves is that they get tired. Worst case, they are cooked alive and made into a hearty stew. Casualties? Minimal.

Gainst a typical militia with 20 or so elites? RIP army. The grunts will break and the officers wouldn't stand a chance.

[LudicSavant]

If the soldiers have good morale, know what a werewolf is, have at least half-decent military tactical training and equipment (as opposed to being freshly conscripted peasants with pitchforks or whatever), and as you say the werewolves just run straight at them, then there's a fair chance they can wipe out of the werewolves with little to no casualties by raining fire down on them, preventing them from closing to hit with a proper pike line, and having regular ol' level 1 human field medics popping people back up. Or, you know, just tie up the werewolves like hunters doing live capture. It's not like they need to damage the werewolves to win.

The unstated variables change this up considerably. If the army have never seen a supernatural creature before, and the leadership is foolish, and the army is poorly equipped, and the army doesn't use basic military tactics, and the army has sufficiently poor morale that they are terrified to the point of a rout by incredibly inferior numbers, and the werewolves are engaging in beneficial terrain (such as dense jungle), then it can go a little worse for the army.

[Hawkstar]

Being strangled to death is a mechanic. It's called suffocation.

"A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).

When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.

For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 hit points."

Problem is Werewolves can hold thier breath for 2 minutes or 120 rounds there gonna get out sooner or later.
That's suffocation, not strangulation. What stops the werewolf from just breathing? The soldiers have no means of choking or strangling the beasts.

[Boci]

That's suffocation, not strangulation. What stops the werewolf from just breathing? The soldiers have no means of choking or strangling the beasts.

As I mentioned in the OP, the DM may consider some house rules since this isn't a situation D&D was designed to handle, and so the RAW can be a little clunky. By RAW, pinning a werewolf down, looping a rope around its neck and having a tug of war won't strangle it, but a DM may rule it does.

[Naanomi]

Give me 500 varangian guard. Viking elite in three layers of armor wielding two-handed axes. They wouldn't break. They never break. Best case scenario for the werewolves is that they get tired. Worst case, they are cooked alive and made into a hearty stew. Casualties? Minimal.
The axes can’t even scratch the werewolves, let alone chop them into stew... and even if I call ‘three layers of armor’ full plate, the werewolves will still hit 30% of the time

Sounds like every forces’ chance of victory is 100% determined on if they have enough torches and lanterns on hand before the battle starts

[BeefGood]

Well the grapple rules would allow you to hold a target in position.The soldiers would have ropes and could tie up the werewolves rendering them incapacitated.
There is not clearly a mechanic about tying up a resisting creature.


Being strangled to death is a mechanic. It's called suffocation..
I would not call that a strangling mechanic. Such a thing would be maybe a strength contest? But I’m just saying it’s not explicitly in the rules.

[Sorlock Master]

That's suffocation, not strangulation. What stops the werewolf from just breathing? The soldiers have no means of choking or strangling the beasts.

Strangulation is choking with intent, it mentions choking specifically in the rule, so it applies.

But as I said, they would have 180 rounds to get out and if they do the clock starts over again. Which is why I went with the surround them shield wall and lit lantern throw.

[JackPhoenix]

Because if the werewolves used advanced tactics, or really any tactics of any complexity, they would win, and that's not what the thread is about.

So, werewolves are for some reason dumber than regular wolves, who know how to use pack tactics and hit and run?

But sure, per your original question...


So how would you handle the scenario? By RAW, werewolves win, or can the soliders hold their own? What tactics would be most relevant? DId I miss any?

...the werewolves win, because "strangulation", "dogpilling", restraining through grapple without the feats or all that **** isn't RAW.

I would handle the scenario by having both sides behaving like they should, without the werewolves behaving like brainless zombies, and without the soldiers going for perfect tactics like emotionless robots, because that's the only way they could stand against dangerous monsters immune to their weapons. Which means the army gets routed pretty quickly (though the losses may not be so high), and the next try will involve elite force equiped to deal with the threat.

If you have an infantry batallion without anti-tank weapons and face a platoon of tanks, you won't send them against the tanks in open terrain, hoping some of them get close enough to take them out with grenades or IEDs. You'll curse whoever provided your intelligence, retreat, and let someone better suited handle it.

[Boci]

So, werewolves are for some reason dumber than regular wolves, who know how to use pack tactics and hit and run?

Someone else already made this point and I already answered. If the werewolves are smart they win, so I made themdumb for the sake of this thread.


...the werewolves win, because "strangulation", "dogpilling", restraining through grapple without the feats or all that **** isn't RAW.

That doesn't answer the origional quest. That restates the premise that contributed to the question. How would you handle it: by RAW (werewolves win. Or likely win, some argued torches and lamp oil would be enough to ensure soldiers winning in a toe to toe fight) or not by RAW (dogpiling, strangulation are a okay).

[Hawkstar]

Well, in this situation... it might be from playing too much Total Warhammer, but the Werewolves have no counter, but they don't have the numbers to make an attack against the soldiers a complete massacre. Morale doesn't feature into the small-scale battles of D&D, because the scale isn't big enough to allow for it it 'break' (The scale's too small for "If I run away with everyone else, there's a chance some of us will escape and I'll probably be one of them", and there's always "Well, I might get lucky and turn this battle around!"), but in a large-scale battle, soldiers on both sides can get a seemingly much clearer view of the direction the battle's going, and there's a lot more 'inertia' (A surprise attack or turnaround can become suddenly VERY lethal because the losers don't recognize they're losing yet as they get massacred), so, we're likely to have survivors.

The werewolves win if the army doesn't have the weapons to fight them. It would not be complete destruction, as each soldier takes so much time for a werewolf to kill. In fact, if the soldiers pick up on their inability to fight the beasts effectively, they could escape with most of their numbers intact unless the werewolves use more advanced tactics to keep the route in disarray.

If the army does have the weapons to fight them, the werewolves would probably inflict more casualties than they would otherwise because the soldiers stay and fight. Depending on how powerful and prevalent the weapons are, the werewolves would likely route themselves.

In this situation, unless the PCs are on the field, I'd rule "The soldiers are routed by the beasts, but suffered "Serious losses" (About 50-60 soldiers. Maybe 100. No more than half) in their retreat. Time to send in the PCs"

[JackPhoenix]

That doesn't answer the origional quest. That restates the premise that contributed to the question. How would you handle it: by RAW (werewolves win. Or likely win, some argued torches and lamp oil would be enough to ensure soldiers winning in a toe to toe fight) or not by RAW (dogpiling, strangulation are a okay).

The question is actually meaningless to me, as I consider the scenario as presented flawed and wouldn't run it like that.

Actually, RAW, the werewolves may not win under the original premises, through the wonders of grapple-shove, conga lines and bounded accuracy. Throw enough suicidal idiots soldiers attempting grapple and shove at them, and they'll fail the check eventually. They are now grappled and prone, here's your dogpiling. Then, have your soldiers, for some strange reason equiped with enough torches for each of them, run in, poke the werewolf (at advantage, though without proficiency to hit, but werewolf AC is bad enough to allow enough hits even like that) for 1+Str fire damage, then move away to make place for more soldiers. Even if the werewolf free himself and kills few soldiers, he's surrounded and can't run away through spaces occupied by enemies (and, per the original scenario, he wouldn't even if he could). Eventually, after 30 or so hits, the werewolf is dead. You don't even need the grapple, but it makes the whole affair somewhat safer for the soldiers, as the werewolf will attack the surrounding soldiers (and the one holding him) at disadvantage.

But that's stupid, and actually running it is needlessly long and annoying, so I'd avoid all that. Not that non-RAW solutions are any better in the "needlessly long and annoying" department, so unless the PCs are involved or the exact results are important for some reason, I'd skip it and either decide who I feel should win, or flip a coin for a winner and randomly decide the winner's loses. If the exact results are important, I'd use the mob rules from DMG and some extra math to determine how much damage is coming which way every round, and how many rounds it'll take for one side to either die or take enough losses to flee for a quick solution without actually making any of the rolls involved per RAW. Which, without conga lines and grappling means 8 fire damage per round to werewolves and about 6 damage taken by soldiers. Which means the were-idiots will last 8 rounds and kill 4 guards soldiers each, or injure double that number (with, again, 4 risking being infected by lycanthropy), assuming I ran with the scenario I consider stupid in the first place.

[Eric Diaz]

RAW, ONE werewolf EVEN IN HUMANOID FORM could kill an indefinite number of soldiers before somebody realizes he is immune to weapons, or everybody runs away. In fact, humanoid form might be better to avoid being detected as werewolf.

But if you use at least a bit of common sense... people in "D&Dworld" should know there are plenty of creatures out there that are immune or resistant to usual weapons, so they should have some silver, fire, etc., in their armories to use against anything suspicious, or they would have been destroyed a long time ago.

[Kane0]

Ooh, is alchemists fire on the table?

[Mellack]

That's suffocation, not strangulation. What stops the werewolf from just breathing? The soldiers have no means of choking or strangling the beasts.


Being strangled to death is a mechanic. It's called suffocation.

"A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).

When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.

For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 hit points."

Problem is Werewolves can hold thier breath for 3 minutes or 180 rounds there gonna get out sooner or later.


Going by the OP dogpile ruling, the soldiers should be able to restrain the werewolves and chain/tie them up. Then if they do not want to use fire, they can simply drown them. Either in a nearby creek, or in barrels of water/beer that they would have in their supplies.

On a side note, since rounds are 6 seconds long, so it would be 30 rounds until they start to die.

[Lord Vukodlak]

There is not clearly a mechanic about tying up a resisting creature.


I would not call that a strangling mechanic. Such a thing would be maybe a strength contest? But I’m just saying it’s not explicitly in the rules.
You could hold their head underwater. I did that once in 3.5 to an fire troll when we were stranded on an island without access to cold or acid damage.

Luring them into the mine then intentionally causing a collapse could be just as effective.

[Jaelommiss]

Grapple, Ground, Noose.

When the werewolf reaches the army's line, it is going to be surrounded by no less than five soldiers. If we assume those soldiers only have 10 strength (which is certainly an underestimation), the 15 Str werewolf is going to lose approximately 2 opposed checks per round. These werewolves will be grappled, pinned to the ground, have their hands/claws tied, and hung from nearby trees until dead in no time.

Within a round the soldiers fighting the werewolves will realize that their weapons are ineffective and adapt their tactics. Neither knocking an enemy prone nor grappling are particularly advanced. If the werewolves played it smart then they could inflict massive casualties. When the DM says that they're going to fight like chumps, they're going to die like chumps. I expect a maximum of thirty wounded, and far fewer dead with how generous the 5e dying rules are.

[kraitmarais]

There is not clearly a mechanic about tying up a resisting creature.


There isn’t an exactly on-point rule, but the rules for bursting out of rope in the PHB and the knot rules in XGE give a DM enough framework to rule something for the situation at hand. The lack of a precise rule doesn’t mean it’s impossible, especially in 5e.


Grapple, Ground, Noose.

When the werewolf reaches the army's line, it is going to be surrounded by no less than five soldiers. If we assume those soldiers only have 10 strength (which is certainly an underestimation), the 15 Str werewolf is going to lose approximately 2 opposed checks per round. These werewolves will be grappled, pinned to the ground, have their hands/claws tied, and hung from nearby trees until dead in no time.

Within a round the soldiers fighting the werewolves will realize that their weapons are ineffective and adapt their tactics. Neither knocking an enemy prone nor grappling are particularly advanced. If the werewolves played it smart then they could inflict massive casualties. When the DM says that they're going to fight like chumps, they're going to die like chumps. I expect a maximum of thirty wounded, and far fewer dead with how generous the 5e dying rules are.

^^ It’s exactly this. The werewolves have no chance to even make a dent with a frontal assault. People itt are talking about the entire army routing because a scary thing bit someone. These are soldiers, not commoners. They’re used to seeing horrible things happen, and adapting on the fly. One round of confusion max.

[MaxWilson]

Worth noting that's not how regeneration works in 5e. Regen doesn't function in the round when damage by X was taken, but it HP is recovered in subsequent rounds. This would give lycantrhopes a unique mechanic, but would avoid some issues with flat out immunity to mundane steel.

Unless you meant regular regeneration and the "except silver" was just shorthand, in which case, sorry and nevermind.

It was shorthand for "at the start of its turn, a werewolf regains 10 HP, unless it is dead. Damage taken from silver weapons lowers the werewolf's maximum HP by the damage taken, until the werewolf completes a long rest. If maximum HP drop to zero, the werewolf dies."

It wouldn't be a unique mechanic because I use it for other creatures too (holy water and regenerating Baatezu, for instance; vampires and radiant damage; trolls and fire/acid), but yes, it's novel relative to vanilla 5E.

[Lombra]

Strangulation is choking with intent, it mentions choking specifically in the rule, so it applies.

But as I said, they would have 180 rounds to get out and if they do the clock starts over again. Which is why I went with the surround them shield wall and lit lantern throw.

Actually while strangling someone you are preventing blood to flow from the arteries to the brain, depriving it of oxygen, so breathing really means nothing here. If I were to rule a strangulation, it would be a series of strength contests, and would treat the target as "suffocating and out of breath".

[Lord Vukodlak]

I think the best baseline for the Soldier's is guard. They're equipped like a solider, scalemail, shield, spear. They have no special abilities after all five hundred of them were assembled and they're described as soldiers not mercenaries, veterans or anything else to denote them as elite.
As we are also dealing with NPC's and not PC's or special characters death is at 0.



^^ It’s exactly this. The werewolves have no chance to even make a dent with a frontal assault. People itt are talking about the entire army routing because a scary thing bit someone. These are soldiers, not commoners. They’re used to seeing horrible things happen, and adapting on the fly. One round of confusion max.

If your PC ran into a foe they couldn't harm would they duke it out and hope to figure out a way to beat it or would they run and try and come up with a plan later. I'm betting the second one. The only reason the soliders WOULD NOT retreat once it became apparent their weapons were ineffective would be if they aren't allowed to use tactics either.

Historically soldiers would panic and retreat all the time. They don't know they'll be facing werewolves, the battle begins and they find their weapons completely ineffective. Someone would have to quickly come up with a plan on the fly, then communicate it to the rest of the army over the sounds of screaming and wolf howls. Then you have to organize and put that plan into action. All of which is going to take time, time in which soldiers will die. Keeping those casualties to a minimum will mean ordering a retreat once it becomes clear their weapons are ineffective.
Some of the soldiers will then have to be sacrificed to occupy the werewolves and give the remainder of the army time to retreat. Only then can the army formulate and organize for some kind of counter offensive. That opening skirmish fifty to a hundred soldiers dead.

The big issue with the grapple, pin them down and strangle them option is. It will take time to do that, during which the werewolf will get to bite and scratch people. Now if the soldiers know about the risks of being infected with lycanthropy they'll likely say screw you guys I'm going home.

[Boci]

The question is actually meaningless to me, as I consider the scenario as presented flawed and wouldn't run it like that.

Feel free to not participate in this thread then. Oh, too late.


It was shorthand for "at the start of its turn, a werewolf regains 10 HP, unless it is dead. Damage taken from silver weapons lowers the werewolf's maximum HP by the damage taken, until the werewolf completes a long rest. If maximum HP drop to zero, the werewolf does."

It wouldn't be a unique mechanic because I use it for other creatures too (holy water and regenerating Baatezu, for instance; vampires and radiant damage), but yes, it's novel relative to vanilla 5E.

It is something more to keep track of, and a notable nerf to a werewolf, but it could certainly work.

[JackPhoenix]

Feel free to not participate in this thread then. Oh, too late.

I gave you an answer to you question, which was "how would you handle this scenario". The answer was "the scenario is stupid, I would change it". That is a valid answer, you just don't like it. I also provided an answer for how would the scenario end, if I for some reason had to run it as it is... the werewolves kill ~80 soldiers who don't behave like believable human beings before they die like a bunch of idiots they apparently are.

[Mellack]

I don't think having soldiers decide to knock down and pin something requires a tactical genius. It is generally considered a good maneuver in regular fighting, and has a history of being used. Highly armored knights were practically immune to regular weapon attacks, so the standard method was to drag them down and then you could hit a weak spot. I think it would be a fairly short step for them to come up with a similar plan for things that regular weapons are not working against.

[Boci]

I gave you an answer to you question, which was "how would you handle this scenario". The answer was "the scenario is stupid, I would change it". That is a valid answer, you just don't like it. I also provided an answer for how would the scenario end, if I for some reason had to run it as it is... the werewolves kill ~80 soldiers who don't behave like believable human beings before they die like a bunch of idiots they apparently are.

That's not a valid answer. Changing the scenario means you wouldn't run it. Which is valid, just not worth a post in this thread.


Historically soldiers would panic and retreat all the time. They don't know they'll be facing werewolves, the battle begins and they find their weapons completely ineffective. Someone would have to quickly come up with a plan on the fly, then communicate it to the rest of the army over the sounds of screaming and wolf howls. Then you have to organize and put that plan into action. All of which is going to take time, time in which soldiers will die. Keeping those casualties to a minimum will mean ordering a retreat once it becomes clear their weapons are ineffective.

Depending on how good the soldiers training is, its not inconcievable they had brief "here's what we do if we encounter weapon immune enemies who aren't strong enough to crush us" drills. Though that would also imply they know a bit more about werewolves.

[Whyrocknodie]

I'd probably go with the opening charge results in some soldiers screaming "aieeee, werewolves" and the army routing immediately. Obviously they lose people to the faster werewolves, but there's no reason to believe the werewolves would have the energy/motivation/discipline to literally chase down every one of them.

I suppose it would be possible to hold them off with torches though, if the werewolves refuse to use any kind of tactics. In theme, I mean - if you used dice to resolve that I'd imagine it would go very badly as torches aren't very frightening in D&D, unlike real life.

One thing I absolutely would not let happen is 'grappling' a pack of werewolves, emphasis on the word 'pack' here. No mook can manage to pin an unruly werewolf when there are nineteen more of them waiting to rip your limbs off - it doesn't matter how many of you there are, you simply lack the resilience to survive piling them into the floor. If there were only two or three, maybe - but 20, no way... even assuming these ill-prepared mooks have the guts to try such a tactic in the first place.

Besides the point of the question though, if the warlord has a pack of 20 werewolves I'd have thought the soldiers would be aware of that... even if only through rumours. Some kind of werewolf hunting expedition should really be on the cards!

[Lalliman]

Here's what I would do. Form up 50 men to receive the charge. While they are doing that, have another group of 100 flank them from either side (50 per side). Have 20 light lanterns and another 60 light torches. When an order is given have the two flanks shift to enclose the werewolves, and throw lanterns into the mob. Have the torch bearers waiting for any that manage to jump the line. Use nets to restrain them then grapple and restrain. Burned to death with torchs.

Keep in mind even if you were to roll everything out you would only lose 20 soldiers.
This is layers of unreasonable assumptions.

If the werewolves attack during the day, you won't have lit lanterns and torches ready. If they attack during the night you will, but most of your men will not be ready for action and the werewolves will sneak up on you easier.

Assuming a daytime battle, you would have to:
1. Give the commands for your plan, and have your sub-officers spread the command throughout the entire 500-man group. This is complicated stuff: shouting the general idea like you just laid it out won't do you any good. No one will know who should be grabbing torches, who should receive the charge, who should flank, etc. You'd have to appoint specific officers to put their subunit to a specific course of action, and those officers will have to give specific commands to their troops so the soldiers don't trip over each other by rushing for the torches all at once.
2. Have the soldiers fetch the large amount of torches and lanterns from the supply carts, which may or may not be conveniently located.
3. Light the torches and lanterns. No one will be carrying a lit torch during the day, so the first will have to be lit by flint and steel. Once you've lit one that way, it'll take seven interactions to light the remaining torches and lanterns using each other's flames. (Number of lit devices per step: 1 -> 2 -> 4 -> 8 -> 16 -> 32 -> 64 -> 80+) You can probably cut this down to four or five steps if multiple people light their torches with flint and steel at the same time, but the whole process will still take about three turns.

I was going to elaborate further, but I can't because the whole strategy is already broken down. Given that the steps up to this point would even under very charitable circumstances take about five turns, there is no way the werewolves haven't reached the army yet. They can dash 60 feet per turn, so unless you spotted and recognised them from 300 feet away, you won't even have time to prepare your torches and lanterns before they tear into you, let alone take formation. And this is assuming the werewolves are approaching in their obvious werewolf form rather than their less-conspicuous and faster wolf form.

To pull it off, you would need either knowledge of the werewolves' approach or a combination of mass-telepathy and Batman-like anticipation.

[Lombra]

If you use optional rules for mutilations and such effects on critical hits, the werewolves get shredded into puddings counting how many dice are being rolled against them.

[Boci]

If you use optional rules for mutilations and such effects on critical hits, the werewolves get shredded into puddings counting how many dice are being rolled against them.

I imagine most DMs using those optional rules would also rule you cannot crit immune enemies, but its possible they would allow it.

[Lalliman]

If you use optional rules for mutilations and such effects on critical hits, the werewolves get shredded into puddings counting how many dice are being rolled against them.
It stands to reason that a creature immune to mundane weapons is also immune to mutilations inflicted by said weapons. You could argue that a torch will inflict a fire-based mutilation on a crit, but since a torch used as a weapon inflicts more bludgeoning damage than fire that would be an unlikely assumption.

[Lombra]

It stands to reason that a creature immune to mundane weapons is also immune to mutilations inflicted by said weapons. You could argue that a torch will inflict a fire-based mutilation on a crit, but since a torch used as a weapon inflicts more bludgeoning damage than fire that would be an unlikely assumption.

It's reasonable, but when faced with such a large scale of threat, I wouldn't see it unlikely losing a finger or two, or an eye. Think about a volley of 500 arrows coming to a werewolf, you may be immune, but you're getting struck by 500 arrows nevertheless.

[Mellack]

It's reasonable, but when faced with such a large scale of threat, I wouldn't see it unlikely losing a finger or two, or an eye. Think about a volley of 500 arrows coming to a werewolf, you may be immune, but you're getting struck by 500 arrows nevertheless.

I still think they wouldn't hurt. Think of them like puffy white clouds. A single puffy white cloud will not hurt you, and going through 100's of them still will not hurt you. I think they would have to actually do something, even a little, to have them be able to group up and do damage.

[Hawkstar]

It's reasonable, but when faced with such a large scale of threat, I wouldn't see it unlikely losing a finger or two, or an eye. Think about a volley of 500 arrows coming to a werewolf, you may be immune, but you're getting struck by 500 arrows nevertheless.

Replace "Arrow" with "Nerf dart" to get the threat level posed.

[Naanomi]

I find it fascinating in this scenario, no silver to be found... but hundreds of already lit torches and lanterns, chains and werewolf sized shackles, massive piles of rope (much of which pre-tied into nooses large enough for a werewolf head)... for being unprepared soldiers they are pretty darn prepared

[Boci]

I find it fascinating in this scenario, no silver to be found... but hundreds of already lit torches and lanterns, chains and werewolf sized shackles, massive piles of rope (much of which pre-tied into nooses large enough for a werewolf head)... for being unprepared soldiers they are pretty darn prepared

I did say they were unprepared for werewolves, but prepared for for combat against unspecified enemies.

[MaxWilson]

Feel free to not participate in this thread then. Oh, too late.

It is something more to keep track of, and a notable nerf to a werewolf, but it could certainly work.

Yes, it is more work. It's not a straight nerf though. Against wizards and high-level parties it's a buff, perhaps enough of one that they would actually carry around silver weapons despite having magic.

And it avoids the ridiculousness noted in the OP, whereby if you (the army) don't have flaming oil you're just dead no matter how many soldiers you have. I can accept that as a reasonable trope for fighting golems, but I don't want it to be true against wererats, especially because bounded accuracy allows that same army to defeat dragons and demons. Wererats should not be more fearsome than pit fiends.

[Naanomi]

I did say they were unprepared for werewolves, but prepared for for combat against unspecified enemies.
So pre-prepared large size nooses and prelit torches are part of ‘generic unknown enemy preparation’?

[Boci]

So pre-prepared large size nooses and prelit torches are part of ‘generic unknown enemy preparation’?

No, but they would have torches and rope. Its an extra step, but it doesn't take too long to light a torch and turn a rope into a rope.

[stoutstien]

Slings and silver coins

[Naanomi]

No, but they would have torches and rope. Its an extra step, but it doesn't take too long to light a torch and turn a rope into a rope.
So how long does it take to tie a large size noose, when invincible werewolves are barreling into your ranks? A couple of rounds of you are lucky? That’s assuming you have the rope within one round’s running; and not stored away somewhere... even if it is in your hands ready to go, that is a lot of dead soldiers before you even get the rope ready

[NecroDancer]

Honestly the soldiers would win. It doesn't matter if they can harm/stop the werewolves because the army will be able to just march right by them. You can defend a town from an army of 500 by using 20 werewolves, the wolves wouldn't be able to keep the the entire army at bay. Sure the werewolves wouldn't be injured at all but eventually some troops would have gotten past them and attacked the evil warlord, once the warlord is killed the werewolves would have no reason to keep fighting.

Also the army would eventually just restrain the werewolves or burn them. The only way the werewolves could win this battle is with hit and run tactics which the OP said they aren't using.

EDIT: Also for those wondering how werewolves deal with disputes among their ranks I'd assume it's settled by a hunting challenge were whichever werewolf kills the prey first wins.

[Mellack]

So how long does it take to tie a large size noose, when invincible werewolves are barreling into your ranks? A couple of rounds of you are lucky? That’s assuming you have the rope within one round’s running; and not stored away somewhere... even if it is in your hands ready to go, that is a lot of dead soldiers before you even get the rope ready

It really doesn't matter how long. The original poster said they were allowing multiple attackers to grapple and immobilize. At that point the werewolves are no longer causing any damage. They can hold that for a few minutes while someone goes to retrieve the ropes.

[Naanomi]

It really doesn't matter how long. The original poster said they were allowing multiple attackers to grapple and immobilize. At that point the werewolves are no longer causing any damage. They can hold that for a few minutes while someone goes to retrieve the ropes.
I guess I struggle with the mechanics of this. I work in a field where I have to restrain violent people for long periods of time... it is incredibly challenging to hold even a 4+ person restraint for a long period of time; let alone doing so on a large-size shapeshifting werewolf with claws and teeth and supernatural strength who is impervious to pain and damage.

At the very least, even a ‘restrained’ werewolf could still be making grapple checks to escape the restraint, and start attacking (killing) his grapplers again right?

In a setting where people can with 100% assurance hold someone down for any period of time; some spells that summon lots of stuff (Conjure animals, animate objects) get a big (if niche) power boost

[Boci]

I guess I struggle with the mechanics of this. I work in a field where I have to restrain violent people for long periods of time... it is incredibly challenging to hold even a 4+ person restraint for a long period of time; let alone doing so on a large-size shapeshifting werewolf with claws and teeth and supernatural strength who is impervious to pain and damage.

Werewolves are not large in any of their forms, and their strength at 15 is good, but hardly supernatural. Shifting may help them escape a grab, but that's their action, which means they aren't doing much else on their turn.


In a setting where people can with 100% assurance hold someone down for any period of time;

Its not any period of time, its long enough to secure them with ropes, which should likely work at lower levels. It doesn't matter how much you've mastered martial arts, outnumbered 20 to 1 you will be pinned and tied up by able bodied men if they want to. Now whether that works when its 500 vs. 20 is up to the DM in question.

[Mellack]

I guess I struggle with the mechanics of this. I work in a field where I have to restrain violent people for long periods of time... it is incredibly challenging to hold even a 4+ person restraint for a long period of time; let alone doing so on a large-size shapeshifting werewolf with claws and teeth and supernatural strength who is impervious to pain and damage.

At the very least, even a ‘restrained’ werewolf could still be making grapple checks to escape the restraint, and start attacking (killing) his grapplers again right?

In a setting where people can with 100% assurance hold someone down for any period of time; some spells that summon lots of stuff (Conjure animals, animate objects) get a big (if niche) power boost

First off, with all due respect for your experience, D&D is not a good reality simulator. And since we are already discussing creatures who are somehow immune to weapons unless made of silver, lets just set reality aside and work within the rules as given.

Considering the numbers difference, I don't think even letting the werewolves still make checks would help them. I am assuming that they can only check against a single grapple, meaning they can only free one limb. That uses up its action, so no attacks. The OP suggested 5 people (each a limb plus the head) would be able to neutralize an attacker. Since 8 people can surround each werewolf, that would still leave 3 people free to ready a grapple if the werewolf frees a limb. That is still only using a third of the available troops. The numbers just don't work for the werewolf as even if he can break free using his action, there are 4 checks he has to win as the soldiers get their turn or that limb gets grabbed again.

[Naanomi]

It is a very poor reality simulator, and I would never think to use it that way... until the OP started making houserule about restraint via mass grappling outside of the existing rules of the game, in which case I feel it allows such concerns to creep back into the conversation

And for perspective, I’ve seen a teen (strength... 10-12 at best) with coordination struggles (definetly no athletics proficiency) escape a five-on-one prone hold in just a few minutes where every adult in the restraint was well trained. Holding people down in a way that prevents them from hurting you... with bites, headbutts, general flailing... is just harder than people think it is even without supernatural elements involved

[Boci]

And for perspective, I’ve seen a teen (strength... 10-12 at best) with coordination struggles (definetly no athletics proficiency) escape a five-on-one prone hold in just a few minutes where every adult in the restraint was well trained. Holding people down in a way that prevents them from hurting you... with bites, headbutts, general flailing... is just harder than people think it is even without supernatural elements involved

I feel its important to mention that the five people trying to restrain the teen likely had to observe health and safety guidlines, human rights and the law, which mediaval soliders aren't concerned with. For example I highly doubt the teen was in a choke hold. Whether that helped them enough to let them succeed where the teen escaped is another matter.

Remmeber, I did estimate the soliders lose around 80 men to kill only a few of the werewolves, but I do think dogpilling should be able to work. Whether it does, and at what success rate, is up to the DM, and hearing different opinion on how different people as DMs would rule on this is the reason I started the thread.

[Naanomi]

I feel its important to mention that the five people trying to restrain the teen likely had to observe health and safety guidlines, human rights and the law, which mediaval soliders aren't concerned with. For example I highly doubt the teen was in a choke hold. Whether that helped them enough to let them succeed where the teen escaped is another matter
Very true, and it is an important factor... but also the teen didn’t have monsterous teeth and fangs (Scratches and bites are already very common injuries sustained even in well executed physical management of behavior), and the staff were not physically/magically incapable of inflicting pain/positional discomfort to maintain their hold position.

Plus, getting a rope around someone... someone who can claw the rope to shreds... when 5-8 guys struggle to hold them down probably isn’t the easiest either

[Hawkstar]

... Why are we even trying to get ropes in the first place? Unless they're made of silver, they're no more capable of hurting a werewolf than an iron mace. Also, I highly doubt all the soldiers have the "Grappler" feat, so they can't restrain the werewolves (At least not in combat).

Honestly, I'm still trying to work out how to interpret "The Werewolves don't use any tactics".

[Mellack]

... Why are we even trying to get ropes in the first place? Unless they're made of silver, they're no more capable of hurting a werewolf than an iron mace. Also, I highly doubt all the soldiers have the "Grappler" feat, so they can't restrain the werewolves (At least not in combat).

Honestly, I'm still trying to work out how to interpret "The Werewolves don't use any tactics".

They are getting the ropes not to injure the werewolves, but to contain them. The same way an iron cage would contain them. Then they rope can either be used as a pressure multiplier to choke them, not actually causing injury but suffocating them, or else they can hold them while they are either burned or drowned. Think of a set of handcuffs. They do not injure a person, but are going to make it a lot harder for you to escape or swim.
As to the restrain, that was allowed in the original post.

[Naanomi]

Rules questions to answer: what happens when a tied up werewolf shapeshifts? Genre fiction would imply to me it would be a pretty guaranteed escape either way

[Tiwanoz]

So "realistically"

The soldiers march through a forest to aid the village. Then werewolves will start picking them of at random, take out potential scouts and such.
The soldiers get scared but eventually someone survives/sees the werewolves.
They hurry towards the village, some more soldiers get killed by werewolf guerilla tactics. Eventually they get to the village, fortify it as best as they can and the officers will likely convene to discuss tactics.

It's agreed upon that regular weapons wont work so they agree to use something different like fire. They prepare a bunch of fires around the edges of the village and wait for the wolves to come to them. Along with some tactically placed pit traps.

The werewolves decide that attacking a fortified position with ~450 soldiers is a bad idea especially since by now the soldiers have set up their fires and potentially any other countermeasures. Let the village blacksmith line swords with the silver from coins or something like that.

The werewolves retreat and tell the Warlord that they don't want to die for his obsession with one village. The Warlord gets angry and does send in some eventual reinforcements. But at this point the army has probably contacted their magic division and a few low level clerics or wizards join up with them. Or the PC's are hired.

[Mikal]

It's reasonable, but when faced with such a large scale of threat, I wouldn't see it unlikely losing a finger or two, or an eye. Think about a volley of 500 arrows coming to a werewolf, you may be immune, but you're getting struck by 500 arrows nevertheless.

So? I'm immune to damage from rain drops, and in a rain storm I get struck by several thousand.

Raindrops on me are just as effective as non silver non magical arrows on a werewolf in 5e rules.

Regarding the actual scenario, if the werewolves charge in, I see a lot of dead soldiers in the near future, and they either break and rout, retreat, or somehow make it to a fortified position to make a stand, where the wolves start attacking them one by one while the soldiers either die in place while sending for reinforcements, or they get lucky and have someone go scwartzenegger in predator and is able to create enough traps to somehow make a dent in the werewolf numbers (melting down silver coins and whatnot to make traps and potential weapons, fire, etc).

And that's of course not assuming the warlord sends in other reinforcements beyond his essentially invincible wolves.

[Mr Beer]

We know that the werewolves are using 'charge and chomp' tactics. If the soldiers are well lead and disciplined, they are going to swarm the weres and immobilise them, at which point they win. There will be casualties though.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I find it rather hard to believe that, in a fantasy world, where were creatures are known to exist, an army of 500 (implies a large, well organized society IMO) doesn't have at least one of

A. Offensive spell casters, even low power ones. Heck, MI for a cantrip would do, magic weapon does even better.
B. Silvered weapons--probably not many, but some
C. Other SOP anti-monster protocols or equipment.
D. Or at least one common magic weapon. Doesn't need a +x. Even just a sword enchanted to stay sharp works.

[Knaight]

On these volleys of 500 arrows - that's for all 20 werewolves. Unless the entire army is focus firing it's closer to 25 arrows each, some of which will then miss (how many depends on the specifics of where the army is versus the necessary distance for Disadvantage). Call it 10 arrows hitting for a nice round number, and that's sounding like a volley that can be handled. Meanwhile had 500 arrows hit I'd be doing conservation of momentum calculations right about now.

[Mikal]

We know that the werewolves are using 'charge and chomp' tactics. If the soldiers are well lead and disciplined, they are going to swarm the weres and immobilise them, at which point they win. There will be casualties though.

How? They swarm the werewolves and attempt to grapple. They grapple. Now the werewolves have them in melee range and evicerate them.

There aren't any overbearing or immobilization rules, and swarming an enemy you can't damage while they can damage you isn't winning, it's suicide.

So yeah... RAW the soldiers without silver weapons or magic are screwed unless they retreat.

[Naanomi]

Does it count as a werewolf victory if they eventually get grappled, subdued, and burned to death... but the next full moon a dozen or so soldiers who were trying to grapple them turn into invincible werewolves themselves and wreck the remaining soldiers from the inside (or their families if they already returned home)?

[Kane0]

Does it count as a werewolf victory if they eventually get grappled, subdued, and burned to death... but the next full moon a dozen or so soldiers who were trying to grapple them turn into invincible werewolves themselves and wreck the remaining soldiers from the inside (or their families if they already returned home)?

Possibly even more than the starting number of 20. I'd count that as a victory form the Warlord's point of view, although perhaps pyrrhic if he was hoping to reuse those allies later on.

[Mikal]

Does it count as a werewolf victory if they eventually get grappled, subdued, and burned to death... but the next full moon a dozen or so soldiers who were trying to grapple them turn into invincible werewolves themselves and wreck the remaining soldiers from the inside (or their families if they already returned home)?

How are they getting subdued and burned to death seeing as how the grappling only serves to bring the soldiers into range of the werewolves natural weapons and they die?

[Tajl]

How? They swarm the werewolves and attempt to grapple. They grapple. Now the werewolves have them in melee range and evicerate them.

There aren't any overbearing or immobilization rules, and swarming an enemy you can't damage while they can damage you isn't winning, it's suicide.

So yeah... RAW the soldiers without silver weapons or magic are screwed unless they retreat.

Soldiers could move werewolves where they want when they are grappled so very soon every werewolf would be surrounded by 8 soldiers. Then soldiers would use torches. Every army have torches and while they do only 1 damage. There would be way too many soldiers for werewolves to handle. Some soldiers would go to 0 hitpoints, but there would be enough soldiers to take their places and soldiers should be able to use first aid, so very few soldiers would die. Even if it would take few round to get torches for everyone it wouldn't matter. Werewolves doesn't do that much damage, especially when people surrounding them would use dodge action.

Of course with RAW when every soldier would have torch they could all attack one werewolf, They could just move to melee, attack and move away. Werewolf would have just one reaction which wouldn't even kill anyone and with their bad AC even army of peasants would kill at least 4 werewolfs/round with torches.

[JackPhoenix]

How are they getting subdued and burned to death seeing as how the grappling only serves to bring the soldiers into range of the werewolves natural weapons and they die?

The werewolves can't kill them fast enough, and the soldiers are apparently emotionless robots who obey suicidal orders. Math-wise, the werewolves should be expected to kill about 80 (about 4 each) soldiers before they get poked to death with torches, which they will, because they are also stupid and suicidal. The werewolf doesn't do enough damage to reliably kill even one Guard per turn. That's following RAW and assuming the soldiers have torches at hand, if not, the losses will be a bit higher, but not by much.

Assuming the werewolves don't go out of their way to finish the bitten victims, the guards have 50% chance to avoid being infected. So there will be about 20 new werewolves after this batch is destroyed.

[Mikal]

The werewolves can't kill them fast enough, and the soldiers are apparently emotionless robots who obey suicidal orders. Math-wise, the werewolves should be expected to kill about 80 (about 4 each) soldiers before they get poked to death with torches, which they will, because they are also stupid and suicidal. The werewolf doesn't do enough damage to reliably kill even one Guard per turn. That's following RAW and assuming the soldiers have torches at hand, if not, the losses will be a bit higher, but not by much.

Assuming the werewolves don't go out of their way to finish the bitten victims, the guards have 50% chance to avoid being infected. So there will be about 20 new werewolves after this batch is destroyed.

Ok, so let's go with brain dead soldiers and brain dead werewolves, but the soldiers are somehow smart enough to actually get torches out and use them, and math it out.

We need to know the attack and damage bonuses of each, and the best tactics. RAW, grappling is useless, and takes out a human combatant, so instead of doing that, we will instead have each soldier just use a torch.

Werewolves have two attacks, averaging 6 and 7 damage with a +4 to hit on each, against an AC of 16. AC 16 vs. +4 = 45% chance to hit. 13 times 45% equals 5.85 damage per round on average.
The soldiers have 11 HP, so a werewolf should reliably kill a soldier every 2 rounds if fighting one on one. Thus 25 Werewolves should be able to kill 12.5 soldiers per round.

Soldiers have 1 attack, the torch's flame. The torch's flame is not like a weapon they are proficient in, so they get improvised weapon status. This means that the soldier gets a +1 to hit with it based on their 13 Strength. +1 vs. AC 12 is 60% chance to hit per round, with 1 point of fire damage. 1 times 60% equals .6 damage per round on average. The werewolves have 58 HP, so a soldier should reliably kill a werewolf every 34.8 rounds. Thus, it would require 35 soldiers to kill a single werewolf in one round, on average.

Now we have to see how many soldiers can realistically attack a werewolf in a single round. We've got 500 men. Since we're going with stupid automatons let's go with basic columns, so... 10 columns of 50 men each. It's a big road.

Each column is going to be at least 5 feet, so for the middle column to get to either edge would require 25 feet of movement at least, while the front and back edges would only be able to collapse inward about 5 rows and still make an attack.

This means that you are likely only going to be able to bring about 50 men from the first 5 columns against the werewolves as they make their massed charge in the first round while the others get into position, and assuming that both are brain dead, thus are able to mass all damage into a single target whenever possible.

So, round 1 looks like this.
Start
Soldier Effective Combatants- 50 out of 500
Werewolf Effective Combatants- 25 out of 25

End
SEC- 37.5 out of 488 (12 dead)
WEC- 25 (1 werewolf is damage less than half)

However, this ignores something important- Opportunity Attacks. To be able to attack the single werewolf enough to do this, you need to have soldiers move in and out of melee attack of that werewolf, with other werewolves nearby. Thus, reliably speaking, each werewolf should be able to get a single OA in as well, we'll use the claw since it's both closest to a weapon attack like a sword and makes more sense. That's 7 average damage * 25 *.45 , or 39.375 damage additional damage.

This extra damage actually brings the numbers to
SEC- 30 out of 480 (20.45 dead)
WEC- 25 (1 werewolf damaged)


Now, as round 2 goes in, we have an additional 50 or so soldiers in which are ready to take the Lycan menace down! That's not good, since it's now 83 to 25.
Now, here's where things get interesting. We'll say that the additional 50 men brings the soldiers up to 116 effective combatants, however, even completely surrounding a werewolf 6 rows back means that only 48 people can potentially hit any single werewolf, and likely less due to having to move around other werewolves, which are difficult terrain. As such, the numbers start working against them.
Without actually playing it out on a grid and looking at positions, one could reliably say that only 35-40 soldiers on average will be able to concentrate on any single werewolf, while the smaller numbers of the werewolves allows them to continue to OA soldiers as they move around. As such, the numbers would go as follows

Round 2
Start
SEC- 80 out of 480 (able to concentrate on 2.075 werewolves this round)
WEC- 25 (1 at 33 hp)


End
SEC- 60 out of 460 (40.9 dead)
WEC- 25 out of 25 (1 at 13 hp, 1 at 38 hp, 1 at 55 hp)

Round 3 looks a lot like Round 2, again due to the limitations of how movement and positioning. Thus...

Round 3
Start
SEC- 110 out of 460 (able to concentrate on 2.75 werewolves this round)
WEC- 25 (1 at 13, 1 at 38, 1 at 55 hp)

End
SEC- 89 out of 439 (61.35 dead)
WEC- 24 (1 at 18 hp, 1 at 35 hp)

Now here's where the numbers might start helping out on the human side, since they will be able to keep up the wave of 40 attacks for a period of time, while the werewolves attrition starts becoming noticeable. Instead of the previous 20.45 deaths this round the wolves can only dish out 19.65...

Round 4
Start
SEC- 120 out of 439 (able to concentrate on 3 werewolves now). Realistically this will be the most that can be brought to bear since by now the werewolves would have formed a core or circle to protect themselves from the wave of suicidally brave humans hurling themselves into death's slavering maw.
WEC- 24

End
SEC- 110 out of 420 (80.98 dead)
WEC- 23 (1 at 15 hp, 1 at 38 hp)

Does the attrition continue in such a way that any humans will be left? Let's find out!

Round 5
Start
SEC- 120 out of 420
WEC- 23

End
SEC- 401 (99.798 killed)
WEC- 22 (1 at 18 hp, 1 at 38 hp)

So by this point, the soldiers on average should be killing one werewolf per round, while the wolves are doing less and less damage

Round 6 End
SEC- 383 (117.798 killed)
WEC- 21

Round 7 End
SEC- 365 (134.979 killed)
WEC- 20

Round 8 End
SEC- 349 (151.342 killed)
WEC- 19

Round 9 End
SEC- 333 (166.887 killed)
WEC- 18

Last Round (27)
SEC- 194 remaining
WEC- 0

So... yes, if both sides are played as stupidly as possible, the soldiers would win through sheer numbers, with each having a torch, and each assembly lining their way through. I concede that in a scenario where both sides are suicidal, don't know anything about tactics, and the werewolves just leeroy jenkins in without using any of their natural advantages, the humans eventually win after smothering the enemy in bodies.

However, Werewolves have 10 intelligence, as do soldiers. Thus, neither would actually fight like this. The werewolves would use their advantages to do hit and run tactics, striking as wolves and moving away with their superior speed and not really caring about opportunity attacks that at most do 2 damage to them, while the humans would either try and set up firewalls as traps (if they have the equipment to do so), or make an organized retreat either to the town or back to where they started from or to a third location.

Thus, in a realistically played scenario, still have to give it to the werewolves, RAW.

[mrumsey]

Spears/pitchforks can be used to immobilize outside of range (in a narrative, the rules don't really offer this as an option). Rope, nets, and other restraints can be applied. One farmboy has to lasso a werewolf and ride it, or I call shenanigans.

I can't imagine 500 trained soldiers who are aware of lycanthropes suffering too many losses to such an attack.

[Mikal]

Spears/pitchforks can be used to immobilize outside of range (in a narrative, the rules don't really offer this as an option). Rope, nets, and other restraints can be applied. One farmboy has to lasso a werewolf and ride it, or I call shenanigans.

I can't imagine 500 trained soldiers who are aware of lycanthropes suffering too many losses to such an attack.

Well yeah if you make stuff up like Spears and pitchforks now immobilize, those soldiers should do just fine.
Also, why do you assume the soldiers know anything about werewolves? It's just as likely they don't.

[Naanomi]

How are they getting subdued and burned to death seeing as how the grappling only serves to bring the soldiers into range of the werewolves natural weapons and they die?
The OP has houserules posted about flawless restraining; which I don’t like but am presuming is true for my question there

[Boci]

How are they getting subdued and burned to death seeing as how the grappling only serves to bring the soldiers into range of the werewolves natural weapons and they die?

I understand reading 4 pages is a bit much and am totally willing to forgive jumping into a debate with only skimming reading what has already been said. Sure, maybe your point was previous noted, addressed, discussed, but its not big deal.

However, this is right there in the unedited OP, which I feel its reasonable to expect posters to read first.


Grabbing doesn't do much against a werewolf, try it and they will likely escape by chewing tyour arm off so you are no longer holding them.

In the same paragraph I later go on to elaborate that a DM may houserule (I do not specify it is a houserule) that dogpilling results in a more effective pinning beyond what RAW allows.

[Naanomi]

Let’s see... at 15 STR, a werewolf can ‘lift, push, or drag’ 450 lbs. Assuming a soldier and their gear weighs (conservatively) 150lbs; it would take 3 soldiers to unbearably overload a werewolf limb in a dog pile?

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

You have too many werewolves (only 20 in OP, not 25) and the soldiers add their Str modifier to melee weapon attacks (which attacking with torches is, even if it does fire instead of physical damage). There's also an option to use oil to make the next torch poke do +5 damage. And some soldiers may shove the werewolves (sure, the weres have slightly better (+1 compared to guards) Athletics, but they'll fail eventually) prone, or even grapple-shove to give them disadvantage on attacks and advantage to soldier's attacks. All in all, it would be over faster, with less soldier losses, especially as you can cycle wounded soldiers away from the werewolves, which leads to less deaths, but potentially to more infected.


Let’s see... at 15 STR, a werewolf can ‘lift, push, or drag’ 450 lbs. Assuming a soldier and their gear weighs (conservatively) 150lbs; it would take 3 soldiers to unbearably overload a werewolf limb in a dog pile?

Average D&D human weights 165 punds, with at least 30 pounds of gear (chain shirt, shield, torch, clothes) on top. Though you still need 3, barely.

[mrumsey]

Well yeah if you make stuff up like Spears and pitchforks now immobilize, those soldiers should do just fine.
Also, why do you assume the soldiers know anything about werewolves? It's just as likely they don't.

That is why I said in a narrative, not in actual play. I highly doubt someone is going to roll for 500 army men and 20 werewolves. This is not a PVE situation (at least not how I understood it).

Since it is(in my understanding) a narrative; more dynamic, story-telling (maybe realistic) events can (not must) be used. These events do not have to be RAW, since they are not being performed by rolls, but rather, as drivers to the narrative.

Alternatively, you could do everything RAW and simulate rolls. There werewolves would kill everyone as knowing you are immortal is a pretty good boost to morale. That doesn't seem like a compelling story unless the werewolves become 'legends' and need to be hunted on their own right. 20 npc side-quest bad guys doesn't sound like the worst idea, though.

Edit: I didn't assume they know about werewolves. The OP said it was very likely they knew of them. The probably don't know they are attacking, but rather that werewolves exist.

[PhoenixPhyre]

That is why I said in a narrative, not in actual play. I highly doubt someone is going to roll for 500 army men and 20 werewolves. This is not a PVE situation (at least not how I understood it).

Since it is(in my understanding) a narrative; more dynamic, story-telling (maybe realistic) events can (not must) be used. These events do not have to be RAW, since they are not being performed by rolls, but rather, as drivers to the narrative.

Alternatively, you could do everything RAW and simulate rolls. There werewolves would kill everyone as knowing you are immortal is a pretty good boost to morale. That doesn't seem like a compelling story unless the werewolves become 'legends' and need to be hunted on their own right. 20 npc side-quest bad guys doesn't sound like the worst idea, though.

I agree that unless the players are involved, using the RAW rules blindly is a mistake. 5e does away with the conceit that the rules simulate the world. The rules are there for the game, to resolve actions on-camera (where the PCs are present). It's a tremendous freedom to only apply the rules where they fit.

As I see it, the "immunity to normal weapons" thing is to simulate very rapid regeneration, such that no normal weapon can cause lasting damage. However, that might lead them to being (narratively) vulnerable to things like being pinned against a surface by a metal lance. They're alive and capable, just can't move. Drive one through the head and through each limb and you've pinned them pretty well. Then you can take your time burning them alive or have the army's blacksmith silver some weapons for you. And you can do this from outside their effective range.

[Knaight]

I agree that unless the players are involved, using the RAW rules blindly is a mistake. 5e does away with the conceit that the rules simulate the world. The rules are there for the game, to resolve actions on-camera (where the PCs are present). It's a tremendous freedom to only apply the rules where they fit.

Even with players involved it's often a mistake. Take the werewolves again - them being immune to normal weapons and forcing a retreat is one thing. Them nonchalantly shrugging off a later trap where one PC gets them in position below a hundred foot cliff and another shoves over a thousand pound boulder from the top to squish them because it's technically nonmagical damage is just dumb.

[Naanomi]

Average D&D human weights 165 punds, with at least 30 pounds of gear (chain shirt, shield, torch, clothes) on top. Though you still need 3, barely.
I lowballed it intentionally to make the math easier. Besides, they could be underweight kobold soldiers or something right?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Even with players involved it's often a mistake. Take the werewolves again - them being immune to normal weapons and forcing a retreat is one thing. Them nonchalantly shrugging off a later trap where one PC gets them in position below a hundred foot cliff and another shoves over a thousand pound boulder from the top to squish them because it's technically nonmagical damage is just dumb.

Agreed. I am frequently irritated by the fetish some have for RAW, as if it's holy writ and "the book says" is a conclusive argument. The rules serve the game, not the other way around. Some things need narrative resolution, not mechanical ones.

[Naanomi]

Agreed. I am frequently irritated by the fetish some have for RAW, as if it's holy writ and "the book says" is a conclusive argument. The rules serve the game, not the other way around. Some things need narrative resolution, not mechanical ones.
Although I would argue that the mechanistic way the OP framed the scenario means a RAW perspective is in play at least to some degree

[PhoenixPhyre]

Although I would argue that the mechanistic way the OP framed the scenario means a RAW perspective is in play at least to some degree

Yes, but I find that perspective pointless (in this contrived type of scenario) except to start fights or passive-aggressively insinuate that something is bad.

It brings to mind the old joke about the man who says "doctor, whenever I do this it hurts!" To which the doctor replies "well, then don't do that!"

Trying to stretch the rules outside of their design parameters just leads to breakage. And that's not the fault of the rules. They're just tools.

[Naanomi]

I still think there is value in this sort of discussion. Replace ‘werewolf’ with ‘demon’ or ‘spirit’... the idea of a foe that can’t be harmed at all is something that exists in fantasy genre fiction, and how the inhabitants of the world might deal with it is a topic to explore. If your concept of ‘werewolf’ doesn’t fit that, then fine... but the underlying issue still exists divorced from the rules

[PhoenixPhyre]

I still think there is value in this sort of discussion. Replace ‘werewolf’ with ‘demon’ or ‘spirit’... the idea of a foe that can’t be harmed at all is something that exists in fantasy genre fiction, and how the inhabitants of the world might deal with it is a topic to explore. If your concept of ‘werewolf’ doesn’t fit that, then fine... but the underlying issue still exists divorced from the rules

That was my first post. They deal with it by having access to magic. Even a low rank wizard can cast magic weapon.

If creatures that can't be harmed without magic or silver are common, then armies will have magic and silver. Maybe not for everyone, but enough. That's the point of arms races.

[Rakaydos]

So we've talked about what happens when both sides are braindead.

What about wolfpack werewolves vs competent commanders who've trained their troops? In a world with Dragons, Trolls, and landsharks, AND keeping in mind that an army is equipped for maximum combat effectiveness for MINIMUM GP value, what kind of trained maneuvers could a commander adapt to the threat of regenerating ambushing marauders?

Assuming the troops got the the village without losing anything more than their baggage train and casters, but someone spotted werewolves and got away during the previus attack. Also assume Sergents and captians, while not having magic, can basically take 20 on a monster knowledge check between them. What would an army of 500 have in personal bags, plus that which could be found in a village, that could be adapted to fight off inteligent werewolves?

My first thought is, loot the good silverwear, fold silver pieces over spearheads (if it falls out inside the wolf, all the better) collapse a few buildings to make barracades.

Someone mentioned simple durability enchantments would be enough to overcome regeneration. That seems like a perfectly reasonable thing for penny pinching goverments to equip at least their officers. Less money spent on maintinance in the long term.

[Naanomi]

That was my first post. They deal with it by having access to magic. Even a low rank wizard can cast magic weapon.

If creatures that can't be harmed without magic or silver are common, then armies will have magic and silver. Maybe not for everyone, but enough. That's the point of arms races.
What if they are not common? What if the invincible demon is a rare or unique beast that never before set foot on this Prime? The underlying premise presumes some degree of lack of preemptive preparedness... changing the scenario to be ‘well they’d just be prepared’ doesn’t really hit at the discussion at hand

[PhoenixPhyre]

What if they are not common? What if the invincible demon is a rare or unique beast that never before set foot on this Prime? The underlying premise presumes some degree of lack of preemptive preparedness... changing the scenario to be ‘well they’d just be prepared’ doesn’t really hit at the discussion at hand

Then they all die?

If you remove all options, then there are no options left. It's the first principle of railroading. And it's also why throwing invincible monsters without also allowing the party time to prepare is un-fun. Because there's no options. No choice. It's "rocks fall everyone dies" territory. All I've seen is "you can't do that because <arbitrary restriction here>." That makes any discussion pointless--the only option left open is the "everyone dies" option. And that's boring, especially since it's mandated not by the narrative or by the game, but by fiat.

[Mikal]

Agreed. I am frequently irritated by the fetish some have for RAW, as if it's holy writ and "the book says" is a conclusive argument. The rules serve the game, not the other way around. Some things need narrative resolution, not mechanical ones.

If you don't care about RAW, why discuss an argument concerning the rules?


Then they all die?

If you remove all options, then there are no options left. It's the first principle of railroading. And it's also why throwing invincible monsters without also allowing the party time to prepare is un-fun. Because there's no options. No choice. It's "rocks fall everyone dies" territory. All I've seen is "you can't do that because <arbitrary restriction here>." That makes any discussion pointless--the only option left open is the "everyone dies" option. And that's boring, especially since it's mandated not by the narrative or by the game, but by fiat.

Why isn't escape an option? Not everything is killable the first time you encounter it.

[Naanomi]

Then they all die?

If you remove all options, then there are no options left. It's the first principle of railroading. And it's also why throwing invincible monsters without also allowing the party time to prepare is un-fun. Because there's no options. No choice. It's "rocks fall everyone dies" territory. All I've seen is "you can't do that because <arbitrary restriction here>." That makes any discussion pointless--the only option left open is the "everyone dies" option. And that's boring, especially since it's mandated not by the narrative or by the game, but by fiat.
I disagree to some degree. I’ve had some memorable DnD encounters around ‘you cannot hurt this monster, how do you escape/bypass it? Can you be clever when the combat options you tend to rely on fail?’

[GlenSmash!]

Even with players involved it's often a mistake. Take the werewolves again - them being immune to normal weapons and forcing a retreat is one thing. Them nonchalantly shrugging off a later trap where one PC gets them in position below a hundred foot cliff and another shoves over a thousand pound boulder from the top to squish them because it's technically nonmagical damage is just dumb.

I thought the immunity was to non magical weapon damage. Environmental damage like fall damage should still injure the werewolf (by RAW anyway).

[Mikal]

I thought the immunity was to non magical weapon damage. Environmental damage like fall damage should still injure the werewolf (by RAW anyway).

Correct. Immune to non-magical S/P/B weapon damage. Not traps or environmental (fall) damage.

[Knaight]

Correct. Immune to non-magical S/P/B weapon damage. Not traps or environmental (fall) damage.

The rock falling on them is textbook bludgeoning - them getting dropped 100 feet is an entirely different trap.

EDIT: Also traps not counting as non-magical S/P/B damage is going to be worse most of the time. The massive falling boulder is one thing, but a dart trap? A spear trap? Those have no business bypassing piercing resistance/immunity just because they're powered by a mechanism.

[Naanomi]

If we allow anything not technically labeled a weapon to harm them... caltrops, as far as the eye can see

[MaxWilson]

What about wolfpack werewolves vs competent commanders who've trained their troops? In a world with Dragons, Trolls, and landsharks, AND keeping in mind that an army is equipped for maximum combat effectiveness for MINIMUM GP value, what kind of trained maneuvers could a commander adapt to the threat of regenerating ambushing marauders?

He trains his troops as cavalry archers and makes sure everybody has access to flaming oil, and ideally some basic poisons like poisonous snake venom. What you can't kill at long range using normal or poisoned arrows, you can either kill with fire or run from.

There are some creatures that are immune to both nonmagical weapons AND fire (Iron Golems come to mind) AND poison but this approach will cover enough possibilities for your community to be relatively safe from small numbers of most MM monsters.

As other have noted, by RAW immunity to magical weapons doesn't make you immune to falling damage so you can set up pit traps to kill iron golems, but IMO that is a stupid technicality so I'm disregarding that possibility. If being smashed with a giant rock doesn't hurt you, falling onto a giant rock shouldn't hurt you either.

[GlenSmash!]

As other have noted, by RAW immunity to magical weapons doesn't make you immune to falling damage so you can set up pit traps to kill iron golems, but IMO that is a stupid technicality so I'm disregarding that possibility. If being smashed with a giant rock doesn't hurt you, falling onto a giant rock shouldn't hurt you either.

I think the devs have said that the reason for not being immune to falling damage is to reward creative players.

Since I like to think about how to envision narrative reasons for the rules, I like to think that lycanthropy is a curse on human (or humanoid) civilization. Thus they are specifically immune to the weapons of said civilizations, but not to other forms of damage.

But that of course is my own mental gymnastics.

And I haven't come up with anything for Iron Golems.

[MaxWilson]

I think the devs have said that the reason for not being immune to falling damage is to reward creative players.

As pointed out a couple of posts upthread, that technicality applies equally to caltrops. "Rewarding" players with nonsensical rulings based on close readings of rules jargon is IMO not a reward. You're just encouraging them to think in rules jargon instead of in roleplaying terms, and breaking their suspension of disbelief.


Since I like to think about how to envision narrative reasons for the rules, I like to think that lycanthropy is a curse on human (or humanoid) civilization. Thus they are specifically immune to the weapons of said civilizations, but not to other forms of damage.

By a strict reading of RAW, they're immune to natural weapons like bites from Tyrannosaurs and other werewolves because they're melee weapons, but they're damaged by human-forged caltrops because they're not technically melee weapons. That isn't consistent with the fluff you've just proposed here, so you're going to wind up tweaking the rules anyway to make them match the fluff. One way or another we're both ignoring RAW in this case because it leads to dumb, unfun rulings.


But that of course is my own mental gymnastics.

And I haven't come up with anything for Iron Golems.

Technically you can grapple an Iron Golem, drag it underwater, and drown it. But again, that's dumb, and I wouldn't allow that just because the 5E designers forgot to think outside the box when they wrote the Iron Golem stat block. Of course Iron Golems don't breathe air at my table.

So your average town militia's best bet for dealing with Iron Golems will involve recruiting specialists like intrepid adventurers or other wizardly folk. Though again, 5E makes it disappointingly easy to kill Iron Golems once you do have magic. Even if only one villager in 1000 has the potential for using magic, you can still put him on a horse and let him kill Iron Golems to death all day with Magic Weapon or cantrips. IMO Iron Golems need magic immunity akin to AD&D Iron Golems in order to justify their existence.

[Monster Manuel]

Why don't we leave out the question of grappling and restraining for the time being. Couldn't the army use their superior numbers to just pin the werewolves in?

Assuming Guard statistics, and using Mikal's math but adjusting to 20 wolves instead of 25, 20 werewolves take out 10 soldiers per round, with no losses of their own. They dive headfirst into the center of the column and just start laying waste to everyone they can reach. That's still "only" 10 guys per round.

Let's assume the army is reasonably well-organized and disciplined; give the werewolves a round of surprise, a round of ineffective counter -attacks while the leaders figure out what's going on, another round for the leadership to start shouting orders, and another round for the rank-and-file to form up, So, in those 4 rounds, the army has lost no more than 40 soldiers, which is bad, but not catastrophic. The soldiers on either end of the column probably don't even have much of an idea what's going on yet, so they don't panic and rout en-masse.

We've established that the wolves are fighting savage and stupid (overwhelmed with bloodlust, or whatever), so they don't spread out much. Kill a guy, move on to the next guy.

So, in round 2, the leaders realize they are up against werewolves, and come up with the idea to pin them down. They issue orders for the army to surround them. In round 3 or 4, the soldiers start to phalanx-up, shields out, taking the Dodge action, and move to surround the still relatively small clump of wolves. Once in place, if they're Dodging, that 16 AC while the wolves have disadvantage on attack means that they're going to miss an awful lot more. The soldiers are still taking losses, but only a handful a round, now. The wolves can't move through a hostile space, and if they shove or bull-rush to break free, OK, but there are still 460 soldiers left, at this point, so there's another rank of soldiers behind them, and another behind them.

Now that the wolves are pinned down, there's time for the army to get some fires going. Maybe the soldiers in the back ranks get orders to start tossing lantern oil onto the wolves. Next round, the torches get lit and start flying. Now, the wolves are taking damage, and not dealing it out fast enough to take out the army through attrition.

No need for complex grappling rules, just physically box them in.

If the wolves are all still nicely lined up 20 to a row, it will take 46 soldiers to completely box them in. Let's say we stack them 4 rows deep, that uses up something like 200 of our remaining troops. Leaving another 260 to maybe just keep going on to the village. 260 soldiers is probably plenty to take and hold a more or less undefended village.

Even if the phalanx troops can't burn out the werewolves before their morale breaks and they retreat, if they can hold them long enough the town still falls. It depends on the leaders being able to quickly impose discipline, and come up with a good plan, and that the wolves bunch up and fight stupid, but if all that can be assumed, I'd say the win comes down on the Army side, not the Wolves.

[GlenSmash!]

...snipped for brevity, but excellent points...So your average town militia's best bet for dealing with Iron Golems will involve recruiting specialists like intrepid adventurers or other wizardly folk. Though again, 5E makes it disappointingly easy to kill Iron Golems once you do have magic. Even if only one villager in 1000 has the potential for using magic, you can still put him on a horse and let him kill Iron Golems to death all day with Magic Weapon or cantrips. IMO Iron Golems need magic immunity akin to AD&D Iron Golems in order to justify their existence.

It is nice for the world to have good reasons to hire adventures, or at least professional monster slayers (think The Witcher).

[GlenSmash!]

Hmm this thread is making me think of the idea pitchforks and torches like in monster movies.

I may add a pitchfork to the game as a special weapon. 1d4 (or maybe just 1) damage, Reach, on a successful hit grapples the target. Can be broken with a successful Attack or Strength check.

I think then villagers could be an annoyance and maybe even a threat to a single local monster, but they would still need adventurers for a real problem.

[Knaight]

Hmm this thread is making me think of the idea pitchforks and torches like in monster movies.

I may add a pitchfork to the game as a special weapon. 1d4 (or maybe just 1) damage, Reach, on a successful hit grapples the target. Can be broken with a successful Attack or Strength check.

I think then villagers could be an annoyance and maybe even a threat to a single local monster, but they would still need adventurers for a real problem.

That makes the pitchfork a really good weapon - it's a free grapple with every attack, and one guaranteed to succeed. On a slightly different note, it's also a little off for the pitchfork to get that and the trident not to.

[GlenSmash!]

That makes the pitchfork a really good weapon - it's a free grapple with every attack, and one guaranteed to succeed. On a slightly different note, it's also a little off for the pitchfork to get that and the trident not to.

I'm trying to make the pitchfork easy to grapple with, but also fragile. Being faced with one of them would be little concern. One attack to break the pitchfork, one more to savage the villager.

But enough of them and you wouldn't have enough attacks to break out easily, so the villagers could pin you down and set you aflame, or toss you down a well or off a cliff.

The grapple doesn't need to me an auto succeed. Maybe just grant the ability to grapple at Reach, which would be a neat think to add to a trident rather than it just being a costlier spear.

[Ninevehn]

We're talking about a unit the size of a Roman cohort or US Army Battalion. The people leading the force are probably trained officers. They may not be expecting werewolves, but there are multiple types of shapeshifters that are all vulnerable to the same things, and it only takes until the first attack to identify them. Also, this force is expecting to engage in seige and counter-siege operations. Fire arrows are common tools for both activities. The troops may not have them ready to deploy, but they can be made ready to deploy without taking all day.

What would probably happen, I think, is that the werewolves would strike from ambush once or twice and slip away, having killed a handful of people each time. And then the army would pull up, field fortify and prepare fire arrows. If necessary, the commanders will send out a force of soldiers with torches to stall the enemy and allow them to prepare. If the army still needs to move, they'll separate into two columns that cover each other as they march.

The werewolves can't just plow through the ranks. They can't move into occupied squares. They're tough, but not super-lethal. There's only twenty of them. A shieldwall can slow them down plenty, and the army is big enough that they can't just mass panic them by striking a flank. It's an uphill fight for the wolves, for sure.

[Kane0]

We're talking about a unit the size of a Roman cohort or US Army Battalion. The people leading the force are probably trained officers. They may not be expecting werewolves, but there are multiple types of shapeshifters that are all vulnerable to the same things, and it only takes until the first attack to identify them. Also, this force is expecting to engage in seige and counter-siege operations. Fire arrows are common tools for both activities. The troops may not have them ready to deploy, but they can be made ready to deploy without taking all day.

I'm sorry man, you referenced a Roman cohort and fire arrows in the same statement. Are we talking fiction or non-fiction?

In any case, I think this thread has been a case of contriving a reason the soldiers stand a chance from the get go.

[Ninevehn]

It's a D&D thread, man, obviously fiction :D

Also, I'm not saying that Roman cohorts carried fire arrows on the regular (or that US soldiers do, for that matter). I was providing a comparison for scale. 500 men is substantial. It's not the local militia, or the posse a sheriff gets together to round up some outlaws.

[Boci]

In any case, I think this thread has been a case of contriving a reason the soldiers stand a chance from the get go.

Sort of. Whilst "the werewolves act stupidty" has picked up some flak (though the majority of posters still managed to contribute to the scenarion despite this), there's also a contrivance in favour of the werewolves: a large fighting force not having any magical support, alchemy or silvered weapons.

Its less about contriving to stack the odds, and more about contriving to simplify the scenario and focus on mundane options on a large scale, as the werewolves using good tactics and there being a mage squadron and clerical support makes the matter significantly harder to discuss. If you are more interested in that, you can make you're own threadto examine a more reslistic take on the scenario.

[Naanomi]

What would probably happen, I think, is that the werewolves would strike from ambush once or twice and slip away, having killed a handful of people each time. And then the army would pull up, field fortify and prepare fire arrows.
And then, when the moon is next full, a few dozen of their wounded from those encounters turn and slaughter them in their sleep

[Ninevehn]

Assuming they don't take steps to restrain or cull them, sure. Knowledge of how lycanthropy spreads is surely setting-dependent.

[Naanomi]

Assuming they don't take steps to restrain or cull them, sure. Knowledge of how lycanthropy spreads is surely setting-dependent.
Genre fiction of zombies/vampires/werewolves shows me that even if they know how to deal with it, there is always a slip up or soldiers hiding their bites that get them in the end

[MaxWilson]

What would probably happen, I think, is that the werewolves would strike from ambush once or twice and slip away, having killed a handful of people each time.

Why would they do that? If you have a decisive advantage, you press the attack. You don't slip away after inflicting negligible casualties.

[JackPhoenix]

Technically you can grapple an Iron Golem, drag it underwater, and drown it. But again, that's dumb, and I wouldn't allow that just because the 5E designers forgot to think outside the box when they wrote the Iron Golem stat block. Of course Iron Golems don't breathe air at my table.

Neither do on anyone else's:

"Constructed Nature. A golem doesn't require air, food, drink, or sleep."

[Ninevehn]

Why would they do that? If you have a decisive advantage, you press the attack. You don't slip away after inflicting negligible casualties.

To retain that advantage as best as possible? If they press on, they just get bogged down as units not engaged organize and deploy countermeasures. I guess, if they just want to inflict maximum casualties and don't care at all if they live or die, they dig in and get destroyed after maybe tripling or so their casualties, leaving a functional fighting force behind. Kills depend on ratio of melee to archers, I suppose.

[Rakaydos]

The rock falling on them is textbook bludgeoning - them getting dropped 100 feet is an entirely different trap.

EDIT: Also traps not counting as non-magical S/P/B damage is going to be worse most of the time. The massive falling boulder is one thing, but a dart trap? A spear trap? Those have no business bypassing piercing resistance/immunity just because they're powered by a mechanism.


Sort of. Whilst "the werewolves act stupidty" has picked up some flak (though the majority of posters still managed to contribute to the scenarion despite this), there's also a contrivance in favour of the werewolves: a large fighting force not having any magical support, alchemy or silvered weapons.

Its less about contriving to stack the odds, and more about contriving to simplify the scenario and focus on mundane options on a large scale, as the werewolves using good tactics and there being a mage squadron and clerical support makes the matter significantly harder to discuss. If you are more interested in that, you can make you're own threadto examine a more reslistic take on the scenario.
Which is why I prefer picking up in the middle of the action, werewolfs just assassinated the casters version of the scenario. It gives a plausable explanation without insulting either sides intelligence.

[MaxWilson]

Which is why I prefer picking up in the middle of the action, werewolfs just assassinated the casters version of the scenario. It gives a plausable explanation without insulting either sides intelligence.

Killing all the powerful good guys in a huge military disaster just as play begins is a great way to start a campaign. It creates a sense of urgency while still leaving lots of space for the story to develop in whatever directions the players choose. You might call it the John Ringo approach to hero motivation.

=====================================


Neither do on anyone else's:

"Constructed Nature. A golem doesn't require air, food, drink, or sleep."

What are you quoting from? I don't see any such line in my MM Iron Golem entry. It's a fairly recent printing too, probably within the last year and a half.

Edit: oh, I see, it's not in the stat block but it is on the previous page, in the fluff section. That's kind of a weird place to put crunch but okay. At least we all agree that Iron Golems don't need to breathe, even if we don't agree about how to format rulebooks for easy reference.

[Boci]

Which is why I prefer picking up in the middle of the action, werewolfs just assassinated the casters version of the scenario. It gives a plausable explanation without insulting either sides intelligence.

But the army knows the caster is a prime assassination target, they will be protected. How do they do this? Can the werewolves succeed despite these counter measures?

Adding such details muddies the water and takes the conversation away from what options mundane soliders have, which is what I wanted the conversation to focus on.

[Dr. Cliché]

But the army knows the caster is a prime assassination target, they will be protected. How do they do this? Can the werewolves succeed despite these counter measures?

Depends what sort of threats the army is expecting.

Werewolves can disguise themselves as regular wolves or as peasant/merchants or such. So a few of them could either talk to the army or sneak near enough to hear the leaders talking (they should have much better hearing than humans in at least two of their forms). What they want is to get the names of the officers and casters. When it's safe to move on, they'll return and pass this information to the rest of the pack.

The next stage is for the werewolves to stealthily find and kill several of the army's scouts. some of them will then turn back into humans, and put on the uniforms and armour of said scouts. Maybe add a bit of mud/blood to their faces to make themselves harder to recognise (and on their armour, so that it looks like they've just been attacked or something).

They then start running back towards the army, shouting that they're under attack and that they need to speak to XXXX (one of the casters) urgently. A moment later, the remaining werewolves will begin firing arrows at the army from within the trees.

In all likelihood, the scouts will be allowed through the ranks of the army (probably with directions or a guide from one of the other soldiers to the casters), while the rest of the army has to try and quickly form up to defend against the arrows.

Once they find the casters, they could either attack them with the scouts' weapons, or simply transform and attack them with claws and teeth. Ideally, they'll cause enough confusion that they'll be able to escape. Once they get the signal that the casters are dead, the werewolves firing arrows can keep up the charade for a little longer (giving their companions time to escape), before slipping away themselves.

A variation would be if they didn't bother with the attack and simply had the disguised werewolves return to the camp, supposedly with urgent news. This might allow them to better catch the casters unawares (i.e. without magical protection), but might also risk their disguises being more closely scrutinised.

Anyway, I think either of these could work as an explanation.




Snark aside, I really dislike the immunity to damage on "fleshy" creatures; I'd change that to resistance and regeneration.

I very much agree. Although I'll often simply make werewolves resistant to silver weapons, and then have the Alpha or Pack Leader be the only one who regenerates.

Then again, I also add other stuff as well - like Cunning Action, as I think the standard werewolves are a little lacklustre otherwise.

[Boci]

Depends what sort of threats the army is expecting.

Werewolves can disguise themselves as regular wolves or as peasant/merchants or such. So a few of them could either talk to the army or sneak near enough to hear the leaders talking (they should have much better hearing than humans in at least two of their forms). What they want is to get the names of the officers and casters. When it's safe to move on, they'll return and pass this information to the rest of the pack.

The next stage is for the werewolves to stealthily find and kill several of the army's scouts. some of them will then turn back into humans, and put on the uniforms and armour of said scouts. Maybe add a bit of mud/blood to their faces to make themselves harder to recognise (and on their armour, so that it looks like they've just been attacked or something).

They then start running back towards the army, shouting that they're under attack and that they need to speak to XXXX (one of the casters) urgently. A moment later, the remaining werewolves will begin firing arrows at the army from within the trees.

In all likelihood, the scouts will be allowed through the ranks of the army (probably with directions or a guide from one of the other soldiers to the casters), while the rest of the army has to try and quickly form up to defend against the arrows.

Once they find the casters, they could either attack them with the scouts' weapons, or simply transform and attack them with claws and teeth. Ideally, they'll cause enough confusion that they'll be able to escape. Once they get the signal that the casters are dead, the werewolves firing arrows can keep up the charade for a little longer (giving their companions time to escape), before slipping away themselves.

A variation would be if they didn't bother with the attack and simply had the disguised werewolves return to the camp, supposedly with urgent news. This might allow them to better catch the casters unawares (i.e. without magical protection), but might also risk their disguises being more closely scrutinised.

Anyway, I think either of these could work as an explanation.

I said I didn't want to discuss this because I wanted to keep the conversation focused on mundane options against weapon immune enemies, but since that conversation seems to have run its course, I don't mind opening up further considerations.

I think you're hand waving just how difficulty infiltration would be for werewolves. They may be of the wrong race, they could be human whilst the army is elven. They could be of the wrong effnicity, they cannot change their humanoid form, they only have the one. Doesn't matter how good he could bluff, an African America solider wasn't going to pass himself off as an SS officer.

They also don't know army protocal. They could move awwkardly in their uniforms, or mistie their belt. They probably won't know the military protocal, end up calling someone by the wrong rank, or head to the wrong part of the camp when they return. 500 is big, but hardly enough for them to be faceless. The scouts will be known, and odd behavior might be noted. Werewolves are not proficient with disguise kits or deception and their charisma is 10. They will likely need to roll against an officer insight, and in light of the above, they should probably have disadvantage on that roll.

Plus, even if they somehow pass it off, in a world of shapingshifting magic, mind control magic, possession and just mundane skill at disguise, why would scouts report directly to anyone of any real importance? There would likely be a go between, to prevent exactly what you are describing.

[Dr. Cliché]

I said I didn't want to discuss this

But... you specifically asked that question. :smallconfused:


I think you're hand waving just how difficulty infiltration would be for werewolves. They may be of the wrong race, they could be human whilst the army is elven.

Well if you don't provide details like that, how exactly am I supposed to account for them?


They could be of the wrong effnicity, they cannot change their humanoid form, they only have the one. Doesn't matter how good he could bluff, an African America solider wasn't going to pass himself off as an SS officer.

I guess. But if the local populations are white, I'd expect the werewolves to also be white. If the overlord has instead imported the werewolves from another region of the planet, maybe put that in the description?



They also don't know army protocal. They could move awwkardly in their uniforms, or mistie their belt.

Well, first off, this was why I specifically included a phase where the werewolves spy on the enemy army. I suggested it mainly to get the names of the casters, but there's no reason why they couldn't also observe at least the basics of protocol and such.

Furthermore, I also suggested having them emerge as if they'd just been attacked (having smeared mud and blood on their faces and uniforms). This would likely account for their looking a little dishevelled, and given that that archers begin firing on the army a moment later, I highly doubt that anyone will be focussing on the knot that the scouts used to tie their belts.


The scouts will be known, and odd behavior might be noted. Werewolves are not proficient with disguise kits or deception and their charisma is 10. They will likely need to roll against an officer insight, and in light of the above, they should probably have disadvantage on that roll.

Why disadvantage? If anything, the preparation and attack should give them advantage on their roll.


Plus, even if they somehow pass it off, in a world of shapingshifting magic, mind control magic, possession and just mundane skill at disguise, why would scouts report directly to anyone of any real importance? There would likely be a go between, to prevent exactly what you are describing.

Your argument is self-defeating. In a world of shapeshifting magic, mind control magic, possession and disguise, surely having a go-between would be no less risky?

[Boci]

But... you specifically asked that question. :smallconfused:

And then the very next thing I said "Adding such details muddies the water and takes the conversation away from what options mundane soliders have, which is what I wanted the conversation to focus on." The whole post was 55 words.


Well, first off, this was why I specifically included a phase where the werewolves spy on the enemy army. I suggested it mainly to get the names of the casters, but there's no reason why they couldn't also observe at least the basics of protocol and such.

Army protocal is a tad complex to pick up second hand, listening from a distance.


Why disadvantage? If anything, the preparation and attack should give them advantage on their roll.

Because impersonating someone is difficult under ideal circamstances and this is far from ideal circumstances.


Your argument is self-defeating. In a world of shapeshifting magic, mind control magic, possession and disguise, surely having a go-between would be no less risky?

No, not at all. It adds a significant skill barrier to assassinating a general if the scout talks to a captain who talks to a general. A possessing creature could jump from scout to captain, but a disguised assassin/shapechaging would be stuck talking to a captain and wouldn't then be shown personally to the general.

[Jaelommiss]

I just thought that perhaps being infected with lycanthropy could be beneficial for the army.

When bitten by a werewolf and after failing the subsequent saving throw, a character becomes cursed with lycanthropy. While cursed with lycanthropy a soldier will immediately gain "the lycanthrope's speeds in nonhuman form, damage immunities, traits, and actions that don't involve equipment."

Since we don't need to wait for the next full moon for the curse to take effect, the werewolves will be making the army more immune to their attacks with every successful bite. Infected soldiers can shift forms and start biting their allies, choosing nonlethal attacks if they drop allies to zero HP, and spreading the immunity. The original 20 werewolves will kill some soldiers, but I imagine that the overwhelming majority will be cursed and therefore immune. If the infected soldiers grapple and knock prone the attackers and their allies keep back, I suspect that the casualties will drop even further.

The MM says that characters can choose to retain their own personality and alignment outside of the full moon, so there's no reason to assume that these new werewolves will abandon their comrades. Well done, NPC warlord, you've created a four hundred strong werewolf army that is marching on your doorstep. I'll assume that the original pack of twenty decides to give up and go home after their attacks stop doing anything.