Cl 6 vs Cr 11+ enemies

[Stryyke]

So it turns out that even though we will be ECL 11, we can only take 6 class levels. The other 5 levels are to be used for other things, like extra money, or skill points. So how do I build a level 6 Druid that can survive against enemies twice it's level.

[DeTess]

Can you elaborate a bit more? It seems you're playing in a heavily house-ruled campaign, so knowing how exactly you're going to spend those remaining 5 levels would be useful.

Also, are you certain the DM will be throwing CR11 enemies at characters build according to these rules? People here will probably have little trouble breaking a 6-level full caster, but it might be useful to know how broken it has to be :P

[Stryyke]

Can you elaborate a bit more? It seems you're playing in a heavily house-ruled campaign, so knowing how exactly you're going to spend those remaining 5 levels would be useful.

Also, are you certain the DM will be throwing CR11 enemies at characters build according to these rules? People here will probably have little trouble breaking a 6-level full caster, but it might be useful to know how broken it has to be :P

Here's the listing for char gen rules. Beyond this I don't know.

"Monster oriented. Begins in a ruined city inhabited by monsters that (mostly) coexist.level adjustment allowance of 5, and _ levels. You can trade LA for things like 3+con mod HP, +1 natural armor, 1-4th level spell like ability once per day (cost in LA equal to the spell level), +3 spell resistance, +1 to saves, 4+int mod skill points, or 450 gold....
[NEW] trade in monster level adjustment for ‘evolution point’ abilities (advanced pathfinder book), except that it can't be swapped around. Observe prerequisites for them (level requirement equals ecl in this case)."

And yes I am certain we will be facing Cr 11+ enemies. I was in this campaign before, and we sometimes dealt with enemies more than twice our level.

[Malimar]

I don't think any of those offerings are worth what you'd get from LA (and RHD? potentially important to know whether RHD come out of class levels or LA). Pick a strong race and/or templates to add up to LA+5.

[Stryyke]

I don't think any of those offerings are worth what you'd get from LA (and RHD? potentially important to know whether RHD come out of class levels or LA). Pick a strong race and/or templates to add up to LA+5.

Also 49,000 starting wealth, no more than 1/2 on any one item.

Edit.

I am going with a Duergar, and doing a stone druid with a Thoqqua as an animal companion.
RHD come out of the 5 allotted LA

[death390]

i am assuming its E6 campaign. if so you should spend your other levels on feats. i suggest looking up a druid handbook and just totally go overboard with optimizing. unfortunately the most powerful druid type is minionmancy which slows games to a crawl so unless your table is ok with it i souldn't suggest doing so.

my suggestion is look for early access in a good prestige class. also if you plan on using wildshape make sure you pick up extra wildshape feat a couple times (lvl 6 druid only get 1 shape for 6 hours 1 use of the feat gets you 2 more uses, can pick it up a 2nd time for 2 more uses).

if you can find a way to change to other types than standard animalls make sure tp pick up assume supernatural ability so you can use a SU ability in the form. technically it says you learn one supernatural ability for the form you change into full stop. it does NOT say you have to pick a ability when you pick the feat meaning by RAW you pick when you change into the form.

also alternate class features/ variations could help.

[ericgrau]

LA/RHD usually doesn't mix well with casters. You can pump your wis into the stratosphere and spam level 3 spells with saves, but that's hard to do with druid spell selection. Maybe a wizard or sorcerer could do semi-ok. I'd actually go non-caster or gish in this case. Or ask the DM how high you can pump your int/cha (for wiz/sor) if you trade in all your LA. Or ask if you can trade LA for physical bonuses that apply to your wildshape form, then use your druid spells for buffs. Possibly picking up a lesser rod of extend spell or three.

[Troacctid]

Here's the listing for char gen rules. Beyond this I don't know.

"Monster oriented. Begins in a ruined city inhabited by monsters that (mostly) coexist.level adjustment allowance of 5, and _ levels. You can trade LA for things like 3+con mod HP, +1 natural armor, 1-4th level spell like ability once per day (cost in LA equal to the spell level), +3 spell resistance, +1 to saves, 4+int mod skill points, or 450 gold....
[NEW] trade in monster level adjustment for ‘evolution point’ abilities (advanced pathfinder book), except that it can't be swapped around. Observe prerequisites for them (level requirement equals ecl in this case)."

And yes I am certain we will be facing Cr 11+ enemies. I was in this campaign before, and we sometimes dealt with enemies more than twice our level.
Right, none of those are anywhere near the power you get from the LA races and templates already in the game, so go ahead and ignore them.

I recommend one of those high-LA races that usually aren't worth it, like Pixie, Ghost, Half-Celestial, Unholy Scion, Hobgoblin Warcaster, that sort of thing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Phaerimm are at the end of the PGTF monster update web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a). A Juvenile Phaerimm is 4 HD, +3 LA, and every Phaerimm gets Sorcerer spellcasting of a level equal to its hit dice. That doesn't specify racial hit dice, and class levels give you hit dice, so every level you take in Sorcerer (or a prestige class that advances your Sorcerer spellcasting) gives you an additional level of Sorcerer spellcasting ability. So at ECL 11, a Juvenile Phaerimm Sorcerer 4 casts spells as a Sorcerer 12. When you gain a level, take Sorcerer or a prestige class that advances it, and your spellcasting goes to Sorcerer 14. From the start of play, you'll only need to gain four more levels to get Sorcerer 20 spellcasting.

A Gloura (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) is ECL 9 (7 HD and +2 LA) and has Bard 7 spellcasting, plus they add their Cha bonus to a lot of things.

For a Druid, go with a Mulhorandi Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) (+1 or +2 LA) to be able to Wild Shape at will, as a free action into a select set of creatures (pick Set). With one flaw to get the two prerequisite feats, you can start out LA +4/ Outsider 1/ Master of Many Forms 6, as MoMF will give you additional form/size choices and higher HD. Once you get MoMF 7 start taking Warshaper, but you won't need the 5th level of that, just finish MoMF after Warshaper 4. You can also spend feats on Frozen Wild Shape, Aberration Wild Shape, etc. to get even more form options. You won't be casting any spells, but you should be able to turn yourself into an extremely formidable foe as often as you want, and don't forget that wild shaping heals you as though you rested for eight hours.

[Rebel7284]

Sharn seems pretty great for a game like this. 5LA/4HD, dual actions allowing you to cast two spells per turn.

Something like Sharn 4/Mystic Theurge 2 means you're casting two third level spells each round in addition to all the other Sharn goodies. The latest race description is in Anauroch: The Empire of Shade

[Anthrowhale]

Sylph is like Phaerimm except less freakish. LA+5, HD+3, and Sorcerer 7 casting to start, so Sorcerer 13 spellcasting is possible by ECL 11.

[Eldariel]

The problem with Druids in particular is that they are a caster with class features. Now you can get races with casting with that LA but Druid in particular missed out on a lot of animal companion and wildshape advancement. Now you could certainly get Natural Bond and Practiced Spellcaster on a high HD low LA race to get some advancement to your class features but even then, casting levels and wildshape in particular would be amiss.

Casters scale great upwards though. If you have the Wis to pump save DCs, your bogstandard Entangle can screw over many CR11 enemies. To that end, Wis-boosting races and templates would shine. Practiced Spellcaster would particularly buff Greater Magic Fang, Venomfire, Giant Vermin and Control Winds all of which are amazing spells on their own right.

[GrayDeath]

Aside from the fact that I am not quite sure this DM knows what hes doing (LA allowed, but the rest seems like E6?), I would simply scrap the Druid (as casters suffer most in E6ish games) and roll an Initiator with some nice Templates.
Phrenic, Mineral Warrior, Drk or similar come to mind.

Are you married to playing the Druid? if not, what type of Character would you enjoy?

[Eldariel]

Though the strongest simple option would just be running Ur-Priest. You need 5 HD and at least one level of good Fort/Will. While no 5 HD race with 0 LA exists to my knowledge, you can get close. 4 HD and +1 LA should be doable allowing you to enter with one level in any class granting good Fort and Will (Monk synergises with the whole pretty well). Ur-Priest 5 would be just one spell level off where casters usually are as level 11 characters and Ur-Priest 6-7 would already pull even. You could combine that with some Wis-pumping race to a pretty decent effect. Certainly a solid alternative to the racial casting setups like Gloura Sublime Chord, Phaerimm Sorcerer, Drider Wizards/Clerics or similars. More open in terms of race too. Sadly there's very little to help Druids in particular though. Even Nymph has obscene LA.


Aside from the fact that I am not quite sure this DM knows what hes doing (LA allowed, but the rest seems like E6?), I would simply scrap the Druid (as casters suffer most in E6ish games) and roll an Initiator with some nice Templates.
Phrenic, Mineral Warrior, Drk or similar come to mind.

Are you married to playing the Druid? if not, what type of Character would you enjoy?

I'm not sure saying "casters suffer the most" is really fair. Perhaps "casters are less advantaged than normal" and "Druids are hit the worst of the casters due to having class features", but I have little doubt that casters built appropriately would still win any Same Game Test.

[ericgrau]

The spell save DC is a good idea. I suggested it on sor/wiz because they have more good SoL spells. Caster level for duration less so, plus you can just pop 3,000 gp on lesser rod(s) of extend spell for duration. Both of these help make up for having a lower spell level but don't fully make up for it. And as much as you could still break the game in theory, in casual play where such tricks cause a DMG to fly at your head you are likely to struggle to keep up this way. Even with sor/wiz.

Sharn OTOH to get two spells per turn does sound like it fully makes up for having a lower spell level and is a great idea to make a caster work. Maybe even too strong. I couldn't find the details on it though. I did find that the book referenced is sold online in hardcopy and PDF form so it should be easy enough to get.

Gishing would probably work ok too, but not sure how you'd do that on a druid. Would probably need an arcane caster.

[Rebel7284]

Forgot that Sharn start off casting as 6th level sorcerer and 6th level favored soul, so with two levels of mystic theurge that's two 4th level spells each turn. Explicitly cast without verbal, somatic, or material components. Possibly out of hex portals 20 feet away. With a racial +10 Charisma. Or just cast one spell and full attack with 12 natural weapons.

[Eldariel]

The spell save DC is a good idea. I suggested it on sor/wiz because they have more good SoL spells. Caster level for duration less so, plus you can just pop 3,000 gp on lesser rod(s) of extend spell for duration. Both of these help make up for having a lower spell level but don't fully make up for it. And as much as you could still break the game in theory, in casual play where such tricks cause a DMG to fly at your head you are likely to struggle to keep up this way. Even with sor/wiz.

Eh, it's not that bad. 3rd level spells are enough up to CR20, spells are just that good as long as you can keep the save DCs up. Effects like Glitterdust, Slow and Stinking Cloud never go out of style. Druid might be worse but not by much. Of course, Druid has a lot of spells like Kelpstrand, Blinding Spittle and company that don't even care about saves and those scale amazingly well, but Druid has good SoDs as well (starting from Entangle, of course).

It's worth noting that a Druid can gish pretty easily on this level. 10d6 damage on all weapons from Venomfire and +3 weapons on Greater Magic Fang Fleshraker form is more than competitive and then you just add +1 Wild Fullplate or Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasps or some such and enjoy your 40 AC, which is pretty decent on this level. All of this all day of course; easy to buff more for hours or so. Now sure, your HP will be low unless you have high HD form so...pick some 3-4 HD race.


Also, if you want extra actions, Druid once again has you covered, though in one more level: Enhance Wild Shape [Spell Compendium] + Aberration Wild Shape [Lords of Madness] allows Choker or the aforementioned Sharn (though Sharn is Su requiring Assume Supernatural Ability instead IIRC) for the usual deal. Level 6 Druids are pretty rad actually.

[Troacctid]

Also 49,000 starting wealth, no more than 1/2 on any one item.

Edit.

I am going with a Duergar, and doing a stone druid with a Thoqqua as an animal companion.
RHD come out of the 5 allotted LA
I missed this. Duergar are...not very powerful, but just make sure you use the psionic version, as it is strictly better. The enlarging ability lasts longer and can boost you two size categories instead of one. Also, you can take 15 on Concentration checks. Exception is if you want to spend 2 LA on the Phrenic template, which would call for the non-psionic version.

They're +1 LA, so that leaves you with +4 for templates. You should look into Half-Celestial, Half-Fiend, Half-Farspawn, Shadow, Dark, Mulhorandi Divine Minion, Half-Fey, Half-Dragon, Draconic, Gravetouched Ghoul, Entomanothrope, Woodling, Lolth-Touched, Saint, Half-Nymph, Half-Vampire, Shadow-Bound, Shadow-Walker...

[Stryyke]

Would I be better off using the 4 remaining LA for extra wild shape changes per day (5 wildshape per day at CL 6) or on a half-fiend template?

[Troacctid]

Would I be better off using the 4 remaining LA for extra wild shape changes per day (5 wildshape per day at CL 6) or on a half-fiend template?
Template, not close.