So, this one player REALLY wants to play a Vampire.....but RAW it shucks too much...

[GrayDeath]

...help?^^


Less joky: One of our Playrs just got his long term Charachter (A blaster/BFC Sorcerer) killed. RIght in the middle of a VERY dangerous point of the Adventure, where recruiting new Guys is at least questionable for most parts. (Explanation: Raise Dead does not exist in our World, he does not want to be reincarnated, and the group cant cast true ressurrection yet and cant buy it where they are).

So he wants to play A Vampire (they had for a time allied with a local Vampire Lord and his subordinates), mayhap even a Vampire Lord.

But hing is, these massive LA`s will make him very fragile given his usual luck with rolling Hit Dice (and 6 missing Levels due to LA, with the regular Buyoff rules not applying).

So, given the Group is relatively optimized, has a Druid and a support Wizard in addition to a Pathfinder Oracle (Bones) and his Base for the Vampire CHaracter will either be a Warder or a Warlord (with very small chance of it being a Bard instead):
What LA would you assign for a Vampire Lord+Classes PC in a Level 13 Group?

Please also state your reasoning.

THanks in advance.


PS: The Group is going to be up against a quite powerful, Illithid-Led Secret Organization next.

[One Step Two]

By Default a vampire has an LA of +8, however, the playground has a dedicated poster who with some collaboration, revised the LA of the vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22477494&postcount=564), that make it more playable, if you follow through and have a read of the thread you can get an idea of why it's only worth a LA +3 instead of the default 8, but do keep in mind, sunlight will suck. Pun intended.

Make sure the player is 100% aware of the dangers involved, because when you get ashed as a vampire, true res is the only thing that can return you to the land of the living.

Note: As for the Vampire lord specifically, it has no listed LA, which normally makes it unplayable, but given the sheer power, I wouldn't recommend anything less than a further +3 LA for adding the Lord on top, for a total of 6. This might hurt, but draining 3 levels per strike is devastating at any level of the game.

[DeAnno]

You have some choices.

You could lower the LA a lot. The LA thread suggests +3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22477494&postcount=564).
IIRC Pathfinder more or less endorses LA=CR, and Vampire (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire/) there seems to have +2, which is a bargain since it looks similar to what GITP rated at +3.
Perpendicular to those, if your group is not interested in dealing with the ramifications of Create Spawn, my old group used a houserule where Undead could trade it for Unholy Toughness (add Charisma bonus x HD to max hp as if it was Constitution).
Instead of any of that, you could build it as a Half-Vampire instead (from Libris Mortis) at a book listed +2 LA. Note that in an even moderately optimized group this is overcosted, glancing at it I think +1 LA is reasonable.

[GrayDeath]

Ah,even worse. Somehow I had it at +6 LA, not +8....

OK, for now we are assuming to use its CR adjustment instead of its LA.

Still, +6 in Total is ... tough.

The Exchange of Create Spawn for Unholy Toughness is a great Houserule. he has no intention of sireing anything anyway as far as I know, thanks!

Hmmm, powerwise this should sffice, but: any other Ideas how to make it hurt less later on (or at least make it more surviveable)? Do any of you ahve experience with LA buyoff of a different kind, as everything past LA +3 is impossible following the regular rules unless you paly epic (which we wont)?

[Goaty14]

Unholy Toughness might be a little too good for a sorcerer... I'd compare that to the usual criticisms of Faerie Mysteries Initiate and Lost Tradition (CON)... except this way the sorcerer also gets a d12 hit die! Don't get too surprised if the PC gets more HP than a raging barbarian if you allow that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. You're using Pathfinder classes, so use the Pathfinder rule that LA = CR.
2. Use the PF Vampire (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire/), it's CR +2 so it will only be LA +2.
2a. Maybe even use the PF Dread Vampire (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dread-vampire-cr-3/) which is CR +3 = LA +3.

[Gnaeus]

Maybe not what you looking for, but there’s also the PF Dhampir. Less playing a vampire than playing a PC with a sprinkle of vampire ness.

[DeAnno]

Unholy Toughness might be a little too good for a sorcerer... I'd compare that to the usual criticisms of Faerie Mysteries Initiate and Lost Tradition (CON)... except this way the sorcerer also gets a d12 hit die! Don't get too surprised if the PC gets more HP than a raging barbarian if you allow that.

A sorc was the last character, this one is going to be:
CHaracter will either be a Warder or a Warlord (with very small chance of it being a Bard instead)

Also, if you play a vampire template on a Sorc and lose 2-3 caster levels in LA for some pretty dubious benefits you frankly deserve whatever stuff you can get.

[Vhaidara]

Since I see Warlord and Warder on the possible class lists, you seem to be accepting of Dreamscarred Press content. They actually published a book (Lords of the Night) that is dedicated to PC vampires, including a new vampire template rated and balanced around +1 LA.

[GrayDeath]

That might be, but I am not going to buy a 3p Book just in case one template in it might prove useful.

Can you give me the gist of how it differs from the original" Vampire? Nothing Copyright infringing, mind!

[Psyren]

1. You're using Pathfinder classes, so use the Pathfinder rule that LA = CR.
2. Use the PF Vampire (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire/), it's CR +2 so it will only be LA +2.
2a. Maybe even use the PF Dread Vampire (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dread-vampire-cr-3/) which is CR +3 = LA +3.


Maybe not what you looking for, but there’s also the PF Dhampir. Less playing a vampire than playing a PC with a sprinkle of vampire ness.

Seconding either of these suggestions; Dhampirs make great Oracles in general anyway and there are feats they can take to be more "vampire-y."

[Eldaran]

That might be, but I am not going to buy a 3p Book just in case one template in it might prove useful.

Can you give me the gist of how it differs from the original" Vampire? Nothing Copyright infringing, mind!

It's very different, no energy drain, no blood drain, no fast healing. But they do gain natural attacks that give them an absurd amount of temp HP. They also have a cool thirst mechanic that makes them actually feel like a vampire, having to constantly feed or suffer penalties.

[gkathellar]

This might serve your purposes. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=709.0)

Dreamscarred Press also has a book for playing vampires called Lords of the Night. I hear it's pretty good, but gauged toward full-party play.

[ericgrau]

Energy drain, DR, undead immunites, being nigh impossible for most monsters to kill, and a couple dozen minor and moderate abilities do accomplish a metric ton. The LA 8 isn't without reason. But like most LA it's too much at low level and too much for any amount of optimization. Like all of these questions, simply reduce the LA according to your group's needs and reduce it further at low levels. Easy.

I don't know the specifics of your group but for example you can do LA 5 through ECL 14 and then LA 4 at ECL 15. If he's still not strong enough then simply reduce that further. If you go as far as LA 3 then you don't need to reduce it more at starting level since he already has plenty of HP. I'm not disagreeing with others who have thrown out various numbers, I'm only saying to pick the number that works best for your group.

It's good that he picked a melee build. He should pick up a race with natural attacks, boots of speed or another source of haste, multiattack, and probably improved multiattack to fully exploit his energy drain. Since some foes are immune he should have a weapon too, and at least all of that still deals decent damage in spite of no energy drain. Plus he still has several good defenses and special abilities.

[knightfall]

Endzeitgeist, a well-respected reviewer of 3pp PF material, has given a fairly exhaustive review to Rite Publishing's In the Company of Vampires, a supplement geared towards a PC race of vampires, giving it 5/5 stars and a seal of approval. He gives a fairly good idea what to expect prior to purchase. Worth at least reading the review.

Unfortunately, I don't have many posts yet, so I can't link to it, but a quick search for Endzeitgeist and "In the Company of Vampires" ought to do the trick.

[JyP]

You could check Savage Progressions: Gaining a Template Midcampaign (http://.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd35/sp/20030824a) on Wizard's archive site. it shows a way to gain vampire powers bit by bit - one level at a time.

[Fizban]

Does your player want to play a vampire, as in what it says in the monster manual? Or do they want to play a vampire, as in "Vampires are cool, haven't you seen (insert favorite vampire movie here)?"

If the former, I would simply say no. If the latter, I would ask what it is exactly they want, and then 'brew something to match. Unless vampires have actually been used mechanically in your game, there's no reason to force a square peg into a round hole when you can use a round peg.

[GrayDeath]

The former, mostly. Although of course he is a bit of a Vampire Fan, its mostly book related (and he hates Twilight Vamps with a passion, probalby because his then Girlfriend made him watch part 1 and 2 multiple times^^).

We have had dealing with Vampires, see my OP, and his CHaracter died, so he fixated on Then I`ll play one of those", like a Cat on Catnip. ^^

[Fizban]

I figured "dealings with" was not actual use of their combat mechanics. That means I stick with the former then: Vampires are monsters. If you get killed by a dragon or a golem or a demon that doesn't mean you get to play as one, why would a vampire be any different? (PCs turned into vampires are also monsters).

[chimaeraUndying]

Player characters get killed by humans or goblins all the time, should they not be allowed to choose those races either? Besides, you can, of course, play as any of the three things you'd listed if you can stomach the LA and the GM is amenable (as is the case for any other character creation decision in the game!)

If, as is the case here, the player likes vampires and the GM likes the player liking vampires (which seems a pretty reasonable inference, given that the question is "how do I make vampires not suck so that a player can be one?" and not "how do I tell a player they can't be a vampire?"), so who cares if they're monsters? Nobody relevant to the game.

[Segev]

It's 3.5 rather than PF, but take a look at the Warlock in Complete Arcane. Check out the invocations. Swarm-summoning, better-than-darkvision, darkness at will, turning into a fog of evil bats... a lot of it is there in the invocations. Use the half-vampire and/or necropolitan templates to get the level of undead-ness and blood-drinking you want. Invent one or two new Invocations to fit "vampire powers" that you base around the right level. Gaseous form at will is probably roughly on par with flight at will, for instance. A dip into Mindbender (also from Complete Arcane) gives telepathy, and there's an Invocation that grants you entry which allows for Charm effects. I just forget, off the top of my head, what its precise mechanics are.

But using the Warlock as the core class, and a template (or two) to get a little more flavor in, you can avoid most if not all LA and keep to the rules of the game as it was meant to be played rather than shoehorning a difficult-to-balance monster build in. And I think you can make a fairly convincing vampire out of it.

[GrayDeath]

Hmmm, as someone who often palys (and really likes) the Warlock, I could ahve thought of that myself.
Slapping a Necropolitan and some stat boosts on it, giving it a Charm/Dominate Invocation at some point, at it might just work.

THanks, gonna tinker with that and see if he likes it!

[Segev]

Hmmm, as someone who often palys (and really likes) the Warlock, I could ahve thought of that myself.
Slapping a Necropolitan and some stat boosts on it, giving it a Charm/Dominate Invocation at some point, at it might just work.

THanks, gonna tinker with that and see if he likes it!
Glad to help! Hope it works.

I plan to do much the same if I ever get to play a dragon in D&D. I want to put a white wyrmling into Dragonfire Adept. The Wyrmling gives me the form factor at a low LA/HD cost (slightly superior to the mix the pseudodragon gives), and Dragonfire Adept class features let you ramp up in power very "draconically" while staying on par with a normally-built party.

[Ramza00]

Hmmm, as someone who often palys (and really likes) the Warlock, I could ahve thought of that myself.
Slapping a Necropolitan and some stat boosts on it, giving it a Charm/Dominate Invocation at some point, at it might just work.

Thanks, gonna tinker with that and see if he likes it!

Half Fey Template Class located here,

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

Reflavored Half Fey as Vampire and not FeySince you are going the necropolitan route and this 1 level in a character class will give you a Charm Person at Will ability for 1 Level Adjustment. Take the feat Supernatural Transformation from Savage Species and now the Charm Person is a Su ability instead of a Sp ability and thus has no outwardly appearance (aka it just takes a mental standard action but no one can identify it was used) plus it gives a save dc boost (since the DC is now based off 1/2 your HD+Cha+10 instead of Spell Level 1+Cha+10)

Now can we reflavor / change Half Fey a little more to be more like a vampire? (While still being reasonable with any alternations)

Phrenic is a +2 LA and it gives you Psionic Dominate at HD 11 1/day, so I think it is reasonable to swap Mass Invisibility for Psionic Dominate 1/ day

Swap out Detect Law for Spider Climb at HD 3 (really cool scene in the original Dracula where Dracula was climbing the castle and Jonathan Harker watched.)

Swap out Eyebite / Lesser Geas for Gaseous Form at HD 9

-----

Aspect of the Wolf is a 1st level Spell Compendium Druid Spell that allows you to become a wolf for 10 min / level. It should be reasonable to have a very cheap magic item to allow you to transform into a bat or wolf for we are talking a 1st level spell effect. I am talking 10,000 gp or cheaper but in reality 5,000 gp or cheaper. Remember the guideline (and the guidelines are kind of stupid some of the time) is Spell-lvl*Caster-lvl*360*uses per day = price, so we are talking 360 gp for a 1 a day item, 720 gp for a 2 a day item and so on. And if its a unlimited use per day item it would be Spell Level*Caster Level*1800 gp.

[Zanos]

If you're reducing their LA, I'd look at removing their ability to control spawn. It allows minions with class levels of HD not exceeding double your own, and nothing technically prevents those minions from having their own spawn.

[dgnslyr]

I guess it depends on how vampire your player wants to be.

In 5e, for example, there are stats for a player vampire race, with no level adjustment and no overwhelming strengths or weaknesses. (It's from Planeshift: Zendikar (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/plane-shift-zendikar-2016-04-27), for fans of MtG and/or 5e.)

If I were to back-port it into 3.5, for example, I'd say they have:


Normal medium humanoid characteristics
+2 charisma
60 ft darkvision
Negative energy resistance 5
Vampiric bite: against a grappled/incapacitated/willing target, deal 1 piercing damage and 1d6 negative energy damage to gain an equal amount of temporary HP.
NO weakness to sunlight/daylight/turn undead


In other words, a nominally vampire-like player race without too many strengths or weaknesses and the all-important vampiric bite.

Otherwise, I'd consider letting your player start the game as a Necropolitan, which, although powerful, is still a reasonable 0 LA race for a player character.

[Segev]

Also, please, OP, do let us know what you and your player go with. I know I'm curious, so probably others are, too.

[GrayDeath]

I will.

we`ll likely be meeting tomorrow at a friends (barbecue) so we should have time to talk it out. ;)

[Fizban]

Pretty sure you could make every vampire power into a warlock power in some way, depending on level (since you can make anything into a warlock power if you want). Some undead traits are worth least, with all of them together probably not worth more than lesser. Con damage isn't exactly rocket science, just tune until satisfactory. There's already an invocation for animating the dead, creating vampire spawn (with a bit less dominate) could easily be priced.

[GrayDeath]

Update:

We decided to do the following:

Greater Necropolitan Deathlock (^^): Base Race has LA +2 (regular Buyoff), ina ddition to Necropolitan it grants +4 Str, +4 Cha, +2 everything else, DR 5/ Alchemical Silver, +2 natural Armor, and +2 to any Compulson Effects and Necromancy Effects it uses.

In Addition to that we took the Warlock, homebewed Charm person, Bat-Form and Dominate Person at Will and Fast healing 5 as Lesser and Greater Invocations and replaced the Eldritch Blast with a melee Touch Attack that deals as many Negative Energy Damage as the Eldritch Blast would, and from level 8 onward drains one level (DC Charisma Based) on a failed Fort Save.


Seems balanced enough, and the Player likes it (and I dont have to work around huge LA´s^^).

Thanks for your helpful suggestions!

[Segev]

Yay! Glad you came up with something that balances well.

[VisitingDaGulag]

Homebrew can fix anything you see fit, but if you want to stick to the RAW, yes vampires do suck for PCs. How about a google search on the main D&D forum for a build that doesn't.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Aminmaxforum.com+vampire+PC+that+doesn%27 t+suck