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View Full Version : Gamer Drama Nonsensical rant on my D&D experience lately



Rillian
2018-07-01, 02:59 PM
I'm running a 5e D&D game for two people once a week, and a third person who can show up once or twice a month, we often try to invite a fourth player, but so far a handful of players have come and gone over the years. We're all in our mid to late 30's now and have been friends for nearly 20 years playing some form of d&d since high school together.

We started a new campaign months ago and we started off at level 11 since we're burnt out on low level content. Now they are level 16, and I found out last session that one of my players who is playing a wizard doesn't know how many prepared he has for a day, never wrote down his spells known, and never wrote down his spell slots as well as never keeping track of spent slots for the day. When I ask him what he has been doing all this time, he responds that he had been relying on the arcane spell cards entirely. He just picked out a stack of spells he thought his character would have learned by this level, and just kind of guessed how many spell slots he had left after casting spells for the day. I just looked at him in disbelief, like how could you be so hopelessly negligent? Two decades of D&D experience, and this guy acts like a kid who's trying out their first session. Unbelievable.

For me, this is one of those moments where I'm questioning my life choices. I see so many online streams of quality players and dms, they don't have to be professional or sponsored, just people who know what they are doing and can work well together to have a quality shared experience. We're having a talk currently about the state of the game, we had our session zero, but issues still require us reevaluate each other's expectations. At the moment it looks like my two players are happy just playing a more casual game. They enjoy a more "beer and pretzels" kind of atmosphere, while I'm aiming at something more strict. I'm coming to the conclusion that I can't impose my standard of playing on them, they are happy the way things are. I can keep running the game for them, but I'm going to have to look for other players who share the same style in gaming as I do. I want a quality game like what I've seen online many times, my current players don't want to play to that standard, they enjoy the freedom and ease of just winging the game. There's nothing wrong with that in general, but that means I won't get what I want, and I need to focus my effort towards a new group.


With that info out of the way, here comes the rest of the rant. I'm looking at my current player options for starting a new game. My immediate options are a 4chan troll who has every Pathfinder book, has tried 5e with me in the past, but he didn't stick with it. I could talk to him about 5e again, but I'd rather not deal with his attitude. Another guy I know is obsessed with being lawful good in d&d to the point of being weirdly over zealous about it. My third option is a d&d play tester who only plays evil characters. He and a few others spent a lot of time doing some professional work with 4e. I think they were hired to break the game at 30th level for some content developer. I don't know for sure. I know a handful of Wizards employees in the area, so it shouldn't be that hard to find a new group who know the game inside and out. The only issue I'm having with strangers is a lot of people in their 30's add in a lot of personal politics to their characters. I've dealt with the full spectrum of political wish fulfillment driven players and it is a huge turn off for me every time.

I've definitely noticed the political divide making it difficult for people to play together. I find the idea of being a dm and trying to recruit a bunch of strangers to play together a really daunting task. Sometimes I almost wish for 80's and 90's drama back when the religious folks were saying d&d players were going to hell or other such non sense. It is preferable to the current culture war where players of the same hobby act like they are from entirely different planets and absolutely despise each other over political differences.

I've tried going to AL a few times with the intent of finding a new group to play with. It was a mixed bag. Lots of parents teaching their kids how to play, which is really good for the hobby, but that doesn't fit my interest in finding a group of peers to play with. So I don't know, that's my gamer drama. I don't know if any of this made any sense, but I just needed to vent.

JNAProductions
2018-07-01, 03:18 PM
Not sure what advice can I offer other than this: No gaming is better than bad gaming.

If you're having fun, keep playing. If not... Well, don't.

But really, best of luck to you!

Mr Beer
2018-07-01, 06:44 PM
Yeah that would tick me off too. If I'm running stuff for someone that lazy, I'd think about making them have characters that require less work but it's very difficult to skip resource management altogether in D&D. You might be better off with a more rules-light game.

I have a similar problem in that most of my players are more casual and less crunchy than I'd like, but not as bad as you have it.

With regards to recruitment, I went online and got like 3 players in. One was good but either not feeling it or had life priorities so dropped out. One is OK. One is awesome and also GMs, as a player he's invested and livens the table, as a GM he's provided an example to me personally of how I can do it better. They're all the in 30/40s age group.

I haven't run into the political problems you have, I get the impression that politics is ridiculously divisive in the US. I have right-wing friends and left-wing friends (I'm left) and it's not an issue.

Anyway, good luck with recruitment, I think it's the way forward for you, but it sounds like I was a lot luckier with the people I picked up.

Another thing you might consider is a technique I used when I wanted to run a game but knew no-one in the area: I joined an existing group in a community centre, then offered to run games after a few weeks because most people prefer to play than DM, then moved the game to my house, then basically ran the whole thing.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-07-01, 07:00 PM
I've found that there are a lot more people interested than one might think. I'm currently in two groups (one on summer hiatus), all from my colleagues and their spouses. None of whom I would have picked out as "D&D types."

And new players, to me, are the best. They're not jaded, and so you can pull lots of old classics out. This also means they're not likely to try to break the game, at least not intentionally. They tend to be into their character a lot. I've only had one who played a "playing piece/joke character", and he was a teenage class-clown type who lasted 1 session because the other teenagers told him off about his behavior. And they also tend to think outside the box (or at least mine do)--mine are constantly finding reasonable 3rd options where I thought there were only 2 choices.

So ask around at work or in whatever non-RPG social settings you're in. If you're genuinely interested in something, most times friends will at least give it a try. And some will stick it out.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-01, 07:07 PM
I'm very familiar with both experiences of casual gamers and politics.

A LOT of gamers are casual gamers. They see the game as ''just something to do'' or ''an excuse to leave the home''. They just want to sit around, hang out, drink, talk, hang out some more...oh and maybe toss a couple dice. But not everyone is like that. Some people are much more serious and see the game as more then just ''something''. And the two types don't mix well. Really the best thing to do is to find players that fit your style.

It can take some effort, but it's worth it. And don't forget the younger folks. There are people, under 30 ish, that fit your style and would like to be in your group. Also, it never hurts to try and make a gamer. Pick a non gamer you know and get them to play. Again, takes some effort, but it's worth it.

Politics is very much in the news, on everyone's minds and very polarizing. I'm a DM that has worn my 'make America great again' hat and had players run away screaming they will never, ever game with me even if I was the last DM on Earth. But it does not need to be that bad.

Most adults can put aside such things for a couple hours and play a game. I regularly play games with a great many people I greatly disagree with...and nothing happens, other then we play the game. Also, as DM, you do have the ability to make no politics in the game. Try and make the game more about fantasy, or fiction, where everyone can agree.

Goaty14
2018-07-01, 08:34 PM
Also, as DM, you do have the ability to make no politics in the game. Try and make the game more about fantasy, or fiction, where everyone can agree.

+1

I think you should achieve that by making the alignment in your game much more straight-forward than whatever standard you have right now. Like, make it less "the human clad in black raises its arms in surrender, after murdering a few of your own" and more "a beholder/troll/<obvious-monster-to-which-nobody-has-sympathy-for> is attacking the citizens, you should go murderhobo it" and the like.

Psikerlord
2018-07-02, 01:33 AM
GMs are rare on roll20, if you go online you will have your pick of any number of players. Course that does mean online play vs in person play. There are certain advantages to both.

GreatDane
2018-07-03, 11:10 AM
I can sympathize with your clueless wizard; I have a gang of experienced players (50+ sessions under their belts) that have trouble keeping track of the spells of their half-casters or how much damage they deal with an ordinary attack.

My only other contribution is to caution against holding your game to the standard of "quality online games." It's like comparing your real life to someone's Facebook or Instagram - you're only seeing their highlight reels, and the real thing will never live up.

Psikerlord
2018-07-03, 06:07 PM
I can sympathize with your clueless wizard; I have a gang of experienced players (50+ sessions under their belts) that have trouble keeping track of the spells of their half-casters or how much damage they deal with an ordinary attack.

My only other contribution is to caution against holding your game to the standard of "quality online games." It's like comparing your real life to someone's Facebook or Instagram - you're only seeing their highlight reels, and the real thing will never live up.

Plus many online show games are more show than game. They are entertaining, yes, but they are poor examples of actual play.

King of Nowhere
2018-07-03, 06:42 PM
i've never seen political players. can't be that common. keep looking, and you'll find someone better

Kaptin Keen
2018-07-03, 07:18 PM
They enjoy a more "beer and pretzels" kind of atmosphere, while I'm aiming at something more strict.

When I GM, I try to run a game my players find enjoyable. That's way more important to me than ... well, any other consideration. I have certain talents, and certian rather grave areas where I lack talent. I'm quite horrible at combat, for instance. But inside of what I can do well, I try to make the best game I can, for my players.

If my players want something I'm not good at, I recommend someone else DM's.

I'm not sure I can imagine any situation where I'd chose RAW over friendship. I play with a guy who cheats on his dice - all the time. I'm ok with that, I just discount his damage (or whatever). It's taken him a few years to figure this pattern out, but he now cheats less.

He's my friend - we tell stories together. He gets annoyed when the dice get in the way of how he wants to tell his characters story, so he alters that bit. And his cheating gets in the way of how I want the challenge to play out, so I change that around a bit.

It's a dysfunctional mess, but ... it works. Also, he lives way across the country now, we don't play as often as we did.

But .. that's me. Doesn't have to be you, not by a long shot =)

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-03, 07:57 PM
I play with a guy who cheats on his dice - all the time. I'm ok with that, I just discount his damage (or whatever). It's taken him a few years to figure this pattern out, but he now cheats less.


This sounds legitimately horrible. I can't even imagine playing this way.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-03, 08:03 PM
i've never seen political players. can't be that common. keep looking, and you'll find someone better

I can say that political players are very common in the USA. We have had a politically polarized country in recent history. If you watch the news, you can see plenty of examples. Though it's also common with a certain type of person who has had a certain type of education too. And the worst are the ones that read a couple of Facebook memes, declare themselves an expert on the topic, and then come over ranting and raving.

For the last couple years it has been a political nightmare mind field. A simple adventure, like a demon invasion can turn into a five hour rant about undocumented demon refugees or something like that. And it only gets worse from there.

Once, players could leave politics at home, and just play the game and slay a dragon....but this is no longer common.

Nifft
2018-07-03, 08:17 PM
I can say that political players are very common in the USA. I suspect that's a regional thing, and not equally common across the whole USA.

zlefin
2018-07-03, 08:45 PM
I'm surprised it'd be so hard to recruit people with a no politics rule. seems like something most people would be amenable to, and not that hard to do; anyone should have the basic competence to just not bring up the topic.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-03, 08:55 PM
I suspect that's a regional thing, and not equally common across the whole USA.

Well, this might be more the Echo Effect.

If you live in place X and only know people who are X, then you think the whole world is X.

Nifft
2018-07-03, 08:58 PM
I'm surprised it'd be so hard to recruit people with a no politics rule. seems like something most people would be amenable to, and not that hard to do; anyone should have the basic competence to just not bring up the topic. It seems to be the default in my area, which is NYC.


Well, this might be more the Echo Effect.

If you live in place X and only know people who are X, then you think the whole world is X. What's your region?

Scowling Dragon
2018-07-03, 09:10 PM
Once, players could leave politics at home, and just play the game and slay a dragon....but this is no longer common.

Id say Im lucky. I play with a bunch of mature adults that balance seriousness with lightneartedness. Mechanical balance with freeform. And respect my viewpoints as I respect theirs.
With Politics Id say best to lay it out on the table and come to a understanding that we are all humans just trying to do the thing that seems logical and best in our minds.

If something infringes apon our beliefs in some way, take that as an opportunity to challenge ourselves instead of seeking our own validation. And that speaks to everybody. Including yourself.
Id say if politics can't leave the table then set it straight and come to an understanding otherwise we may as well say that we can't communicate at all.

Hooligan
2018-07-03, 09:32 PM
With Politics Id say best to lay it out on the table and come to a understanding that we are all humans just trying to do the thing that seems logical and best in our minds.

strongly disagree. Leave your political beliefs at the door.

We live with the opinions of ill-informed idiots of both extremes being shoved in our faces in nearly all other aspects of life; there is another thread about red flags that is raging at the moment which stands as a testament to this. A strong red flag would be someone who cannot let their righteous turd politics go when they are at the gaming table.

Thankfully I've not experienced politically-obsessed players, even in the wilds of internet gaming. Sorry to hear that the OP has this problem. I'd encourage them to give roll20 a try. It's easy to find a game (especially if you are a DM) but be prepared to sift through many unsatisfactory players.

Scowling Dragon
2018-07-03, 09:38 PM
strongly disagree. Leave your political beliefs at the door.

That would be the best. But if it's not gonna happen then best come to a understanding:

My DM started doing some stuff that made me feel uncomfortable I spoke up a bit explained my situation and we where hunky dory afterward.

Kaptin Keen
2018-07-03, 11:56 PM
This sounds legitimately horrible. I can't even imagine playing this way.

It's honestly no problem at all. When we were younger, we also played more - primarily due to A) no obligations, and B) simple proximity. Back then, he was more liable to fudge rolls, and it was slightly more annoying. But it was never anything I made an issue out of. We're playing together, not against each other. So then and now, I simply tone him down a bit. He never rolls a miss, but he does a lot less damage than he thinks.

See, it's either that or lose the friendship. I care deeply about the friendship - and not a whit about the dicerolls. So it's an easy decision.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-04, 12:05 AM
It's honestly no problem at all. When we were younger, we also played more - primarily due to A) no obligations, and B) simple proximity. Back then, he was more liable to fudge rolls, and it was slightly more annoying. But it was never anything I made an issue out of. We're playing together, not against each other. So then and now, I simply tone him down a bit. He never rolls a miss, but he does a lot less damage than he thinks.

See, it's either that or lose the friendship. I care deeply about the friendship - and not a whit about the dicerolls. So it's an easy decision.

It's like playing Monopoly with someone who steals money from the bank when you're not looking. It's not worth ending a friendship over, but it's certainly worth never playing Monopoly with them again. That's how I feel about it anyway.

Mr Beer
2018-07-04, 01:20 AM
Seems like different people weigh things using different metrics, who knew?

Kaptin Keen
2018-07-04, 05:33 AM
It's like playing Monopoly with someone who steals money from the bank when you're not looking. It's not worth ending a friendship over, but it's certainly worth never playing Monopoly with them again. That's how I feel about it anyway.

It's not really cheating - that's the important thing to note.

This is a guy with slightly low self esteem, who feels slightly put upon by bad dice rolls or a lower optimizing skill than the rest. He's afraid of underperforming. I'm slightly insulted that he thinks he can get away with it without anyone noticing, but essentially: What he does, doesn't affect the game, at all. Not at all. And I feel that's important - this is a victimless crime. When his rolls become statistically unlikely, I adjust as needed. He also has a sort of tell - snatching up the dice very quickly after rolling. He only does that when he cheats.

I seriously have no problem with it. I wish he wouldn't, but ... I've known the guy for 30 years. He's otherwise a really, really nice, likeable guy. So I let it slide.

Pleh
2018-07-04, 06:18 AM
It's not really cheating - that's the important thing to note.

- this is a victimless crime.

It breaks the rules, therefore it is cheating. The victim is the game itself. You overrule the rules, therefore the illegal behavior is justified (in a legalistic sense of the word). Being justified doesn't mean it's not cheating. It means you tolerate the cheating that occurs because you can handle the cost associated with it. If it weren't cheating, you wouldn't discount his fudged damage rolls. That's a penalty you've created to moderate the cheating to help keep the cheating tolerable. When your friend steals from the game, your penalty system garnishes his illicit gains automatically as a form of restitution.

You could just as easily throw a minimum damage houserule, taking your roll or X damage, whichever is higher. It would produce a similar effect.

The fact that this process exists proves that the behavior is actually cheating, not that it isn't really.

---

Back to the OP, for casual players, I tend to help the player set up their character. They want to show up and roll dice and I want their character to completely function in the game.

Using the spell cards as an example (I've never used spell cards), couldn't you work out a decent spell selection, then modify the deck of cards to make it match the player's actual spell set? They don't have to change how they play, you've just set them up so they can't fail to play their character correctly (as much as possible in this kind of game).

It's been suggested already in the thread, but when players start stinking the game up with political and ethical concerns, time to simplify the game's focus. Take them down into dungeons with evil monsters (so everybody's happy killing them) for whom the only interaction is kill or be killed. Straight up muderhobo dungeon crawl. If players complain they wany complexity, that's when you have "the talk" about how their politics makes the game unfun for you. At that point, the group should try to work out some compromise everyone can agree to, or else look for different groups.

Kaptin Keen
2018-07-04, 08:22 AM
It breaks the rules, therefore it is cheating.

And I maintain it isn't. Oh, he's trying to cheat. But ... he isn't. You could argue he's cheating himself: I err on the side of caution, so presumably he does less damage overall.

Pleh
2018-07-04, 09:11 AM
And I maintain it isn't. Oh, he's trying to cheat. But ... he isn't. You could argue he's cheating himself: I err on the side of caution, so presumably he does less damage overall.

Ok, so you define cheating as a behavior that creates harm, so if you compensate to prevent the damage, then in your definition it isn't cheating because he didn't manage to do harm.

I define it as any activity that defies the rules of play, so it would be cheating regardless of its effect or lack thereof.

Kaptin Keen
2018-07-04, 09:47 AM
Ok, so you define cheating as a behavior that creates harm, so if you compensate to prevent the damage, then in your definition it isn't cheating because he didn't manage to do harm.

I define it as any activity that defies the rules of play, so it would be cheating regardless of its effect or lack thereof.

There are many ways of looking at it.

Is it his intention to cheat? No. This may surprise you, but obviously he doesn't want to cheat. He wants to have fun and contribute, and he feels the dice are working against him. So he improves the fun and contribution parts by diminishing the dice parts.

I've already said that it's a victimless crime.

I could also take another stance - I invested time and effort into making this game, I take the responsibility for running it and making it fun for everyone .. and he's expressing disregard for my effort, and disrespect for my abilities. I could do that. But I don't.

What possible good can come of it? I can exclude a lifelong friend from my games - or I can look the other way because it changes absolutely nothing. What would my anger gain me?

And it's not like we never discussed it, either. Over 30 years, obviously it's come up. He's of the opinion that we all interpret our rolls a little more favourably from time to time.

No, I stand by my statement. Oh, and - yes, your definition of how I chose to look at it is fine =)

LeMooseImperium
2018-07-04, 09:51 AM
Just kill off the clueless wizard's character and make him build a sorcerer. They do more of that kind of thing.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-04, 10:55 AM
There are many ways of looking at it.


It's funny how this relates so much to a lot of the problems today.

Some people say if you do X, you are doing X. Period.

Some people say you can do whatever and they will call whatever whatever they feel like or not on a whim.

This goes for both politics and actions in a game.

Nifft
2018-07-04, 01:52 PM
Ok, so you define cheating as a behavior that creates harm, so if you compensate to prevent the damage, then in your definition it isn't cheating because he didn't manage to do harm.

I define it as any activity that defies the rules of play, so it would be cheating regardless of its effect or lack thereof.

Yeah "harm" is too high a standard -- unless we're extending "harm" to cover intangible things, at which point it's nigh-meaningless.

Cheating is breaking the rules, deliberately and via deception.

Darth Tom
2018-07-04, 03:33 PM
I freely admit that I cheat at D&D. Perhaps I can help shed some light on why someone might.

For me, it feels like something I have to do in order to have fun at the table. Because I want to win, and it's the only way I can. Now, I don't mean "winning" against the other players or against the DM, but against the adventure and whatever monsters we encounter.

I play D&D because I love the shared telling of a fantasy story, I love putting on a character and playing them, and I want to have fun with my friends. The problem is that D&D is not about that. It's about resources and optimisation and such things, which I have no interest in whatsoever. I would much prefer to play a randomly generated character or one the DM hands me than try to work out what the "best" character is. When it comes to levelling up, I ask my friends or the DM to tell me what they want me to take. For combat, I ask my friends what they want my character to do, or if they get tired of that to help me create a flowchart to tell me. Otherwise I try to play the character rather than the stats. And I get that's not how the game works.

So, in order to not totally be useless, I "forget" penalties (if I remembered them), though I don't lie about the dice. In my view, it's balanced out by the fact that what I do is so much worse than the "expected" level of quality that it probably evens out on the monsters' side. Also, my friends and especially DM get very cross because I legitimately can't remember things that it feels like a social defense mechanism.

As for why they keep me around, we are friends and I really enjoy the non-stat stuff like working out dungeon traps, plus all the character stuff like intrigues and the like so I'm (hopefully) still fun to have around.

Anyway, hope that helps.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-04, 03:55 PM
I play D&D because I love the shared telling of a fantasy story, I love putting on a character and playing them, and I want to have fun with my friends. The problem is that D&D is not about that. It's about resources and optimisation and such things, which I have no interest in whatsoever. I would much prefer to play a randomly generated character or one the DM hands me than try to work out what the "best" character is. When it comes to levelling up, I ask my friends or the DM to tell me what they want me to take. For combat, I ask my friends what they want my character to do, or if they get tired of that to help me create a flowchart to tell me. Otherwise I try to play the character rather than the stats. And I get that's not how the game works.

D&D is not the game for you. Play a different RPG. You'll be happier.

JNAProductions
2018-07-04, 03:57 PM
Yeah, Darth Tom, it sounds like you want something much lighter. Have you checked out Fate, FAE, or freeform?

PhoenixPhyre
2018-07-04, 04:01 PM
D&D is not the game for you. Play a different RPG. You'll be happier.


Yeah, Darth Tom, it sounds like you want something much lighter. Have you checked out Fate, FAE, or freeform?

I would agree, except that not everyone has that freedom. If your only play group plays D&D, you play D&D or you don't play. And if the group is fine with it...

TTRPG printed rules are not a binding contract. They're not like rules in a competitive game. They're a shared language, a shared set of resolution mechanics to decide what happens and inject some randomness to account for uncertainty. The only true rules, the only thing against which a charge of cheating can be measured, are the ones set by each table, for that table. So if the table knows and is fine with it, it's not cheating by definition. It's an exception to the printed rule set, but so are many many things.

JNAProductions
2018-07-04, 04:02 PM
I would agree, except that not everyone has that freedom. If your only play group plays D&D, you play D&D or you don't play. And if the group is fine with it...

TTRPG printed rules are not a binding contract. They're not like rules in a competitive game. They're a shared language, a shared set of resolution mechanics to decide what happens and inject some randomness to account for uncertainty. The only true rules, the only thing against which a charge of cheating can be measured, are the ones set by each table, for that table. So if the table knows and is fine with it, it's not cheating by definition. It's an exception to the printed rule set, but so are many many things.

Fair-but if they're friends, they would hopefully be amenable to trying something new. Especially something as simple as freeform-that's literally sitting around a table and telling stories together.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-07-04, 04:11 PM
Fair-but if they're friends, they would hopefully be amenable to trying something new. Especially something as simple as freeform-that's literally sitting around a table and telling stories together.

That strongly depends. I've suggested that, and no one was interested. For many people, learning one system is enough work. And believe it or not, free form still requires work to get good at and enjoy. Simply sitting around and telling stories is hard for lots of folks--they crave the structure that a rule set and DM bring.

zlefin
2018-07-04, 04:54 PM
I freely admit that I cheat at D&D. Perhaps I can help shed some light on why someone might.

For me, it feels like something I have to do in order to have fun at the table. Because I want to win, and it's the only way I can. Now, I don't mean "winning" against the other players or against the DM, but against the adventure and whatever monsters we encounter.

I play D&D because I love the shared telling of a fantasy story, I love putting on a character and playing them, and I want to have fun with my friends. The problem is that D&D is not about that. It's about resources and optimisation and such things, which I have no interest in whatsoever. I would much prefer to play a randomly generated character or one the DM hands me than try to work out what the "best" character is. When it comes to levelling up, I ask my friends or the DM to tell me what they want me to take. For combat, I ask my friends what they want my character to do, or if they get tired of that to help me create a flowchart to tell me. Otherwise I try to play the character rather than the stats. And I get that's not how the game works.

So, in order to not totally be useless, I "forget" penalties (if I remembered them), though I don't lie about the dice. In my view, it's balanced out by the fact that what I do is so much worse than the "expected" level of quality that it probably evens out on the monsters' side. Also, my friends and especially DM get very cross because I legitimately can't remember things that it feels like a social defense mechanism.

As for why they keep me around, we are friends and I really enjoy the non-stat stuff like working out dungeon traps, plus all the character stuff like intrigues and the like so I'm (hopefully) still fun to have around.

Anyway, hope that helps.

dnd indeed usually isn't about that; though it can be.

also (setting aside the points others have already raised), that doesn't seem like a good reason to cheat. It'd be simpler to just talk ot your friends about it; and have them build you a char that's easy to play/higher op than the party; that way you'll do fine. or just give your char some straight up bonuses.
would your friends/dm really be reluctant to just build you a char? basic builds aren't that hard to make up.

or pick a class with a high skill floor; so no matter what you'll do decent enough.
or just ask forumites here to build you a char.
or use the various guides that exist.

also, how do yuo know whether or not your char is sufficiently contributing to combats n such? did the others players tell you/express concerns?

Darth Tom
2018-07-04, 05:51 PM
also, how do yuo know whether or not your char is sufficiently contributing to combats n such? did the others players tell you/express concerns?

Pretty much. You get comments like "seriously, how hard can it be?" and such, because they find those elements of the game easy to handle. When you call your action and get "why would you ever do that? That's not your optimal choice!", well, it just seems fair to try to even the floor by helping the rules go in my favour a little. I do try to keep an eye on the effect though: because I know that I'm cheating, I deliberately cut back if I can see that I'm gaining an advantage. It's about keeping up, not overtaking.



Yeah, Darth Tom, it sounds like you want something much lighter. Have you checked out Fate, FAE, or freeform?

I have DM'd for this group in the past, for which I have used a system of my own design (originally a cut-down version of the SPECIAL from Fallout 1, with bits bolted on). It still uses dice as a randomiser, but combat for instance goes more like this:

DM: The orc charges at you, axe raised over his head
PC: I sidestep and strike at his head before he can swing
DM: Ok, your melee is really good, but the orc is fast, the light is poor, and your footing is unstable, so you'll hit on an 8 (D10).
PC: 7.
DM: So close! your blade clatters against his gauntlet. He'll hit on a 4...
Other PC: Can I bash him in the knee with my frying pan?
DM: You can certainly try. The orcs haven't seen you yet so you'll hit on 3
Other PC: 10!
DM: Crit! You scythe his legs out from under him and he crashes headlong into the wall

And so on. I more or less make up the numbers based on how tough I want the monster and how tough / skilled the PC is, plus I try to let the heroes get away with outrageous stuff in the name of fun. This group and others that I have used the system with have found it a lot of fun (and a moment from my first ever session about 20 years ago where a character fumbled his climb over a massive waterfall but emerged with a lost treasure because of high Luck stat is still talked about, 20 years on).

I think a key difference for me here is that I as DM am in control and am ensuring that fun and challenges occur. This means that I can quite easily have Sam the hobbit armed with a frying pan fighting alongside Aragorn with the ancient blade of Elendil. Because I can make up a justification. Whereas in D&D, at least how we play, that's a lot harder because there is set XP and such.


The reason that I continue to play with the group is that 1) there is very little RPG activity where I live and 2) we are friends away from gaming and it's mostly about the social aspects for me.

Pleh
2018-07-04, 06:37 PM
I freely admit that I cheat at D&D. Perhaps I can help shed some light on why someone might.

For me, it feels like something I have to do in order to have fun at the table. Because I want to win, and it's the only way I can. Now, I don't mean "winning" against the other players or against the DM, but against the adventure and whatever monsters we encounter.

I play D&D because I love the shared telling of a fantasy story, I love putting on a character and playing them, and I want to have fun with my friends. The problem is that D&D is not about that. It's about resources and optimisation and such things, which I have no interest in whatsoever. I would much prefer to play a randomly generated character or one the DM hands me than try to work out what the "best" character is. When it comes to levelling up, I ask my friends or the DM to tell me what they want me to take. For combat, I ask my friends what they want my character to do, or if they get tired of that to help me create a flowchart to tell me. Otherwise I try to play the character rather than the stats. And I get that's not how the game works.

So, in order to not totally be useless, I "forget" penalties (if I remembered them), though I don't lie about the dice. In my view, it's balanced out by the fact that what I do is so much worse than the "expected" level of quality that it probably evens out on the monsters' side. Also, my friends and especially DM get very cross because I legitimately can't remember things that it feels like a social defense mechanism.

As for why they keep me around, we are friends and I really enjoy the non-stat stuff like working out dungeon traps, plus all the character stuff like intrigues and the like so I'm (hopefully) still fun to have around.

Anyway, hope that helps.

A good middle ground for you to consider:

Action Points.

They're a variant rule available for free though the SRD. You can legally choose to add 1d6 to most any roll. The points can do a couple other things like giving you a feat for a round, buy back a spent spell slot, instantly stabilizing you if you are dying, and a few more things.

Should get you that feel of control over the bad rolls without cheating, if your group accepts the variant rule.

zlefin
2018-07-04, 06:48 PM
ok; but that still leaves the other options I presented as better ways to address the issue than cheating.
also, friends shouldn't be such jerks.

icefractal
2018-07-04, 07:51 PM
Maybe this is a split of people being Lawful or not IRL, but Darth Tom's situation sounds totally workable to me. And I've done the same thing from the other side; not mentioning a penalty or letting a slightly incorrect procedure stand because the PC in question is very non-optimal and needs the help. It's not perfect, but it works ok, and it's often better than the other alternatives.

* Someone else builds the character and gives tactical advice - Can leave the player feeling like a puppet.
* Switch to a simpler system - If everyone else is enjoying the complex system, they'd usually much rather fudge things for one player than switch systems. I would.
* Make the handicap official - Puts the spotlight on the player in question, in a bad way.

WindStruck
2018-07-04, 08:38 PM
What I can tell you and am vaguely willing to share, is that once, not too long ago, I was playing a dnd game with someone online...

This other person I was playing with, let's call him Bob, disliked the point buy system and preferred rolling for his starting stats. I casually dropped the name of Someone in response, simply reminded of That Person at the time, thinking that if Bob happened to be on a talk show with Someone, he would needle Bob with questions until he either discovered he knew the truth already and was lying about it, or that he was lying about everything he thought he knew and could then figure out why.

This comment was only a joke and not political in any way. But Someone was involved in politics occasionally, and got a bad rap from the media. So naturally, after calmly and rationally asking for me to clarify who I was talking about, Bob stormed out of the game and cut off all contact with me, after basically saying I'm a backwards, hurtful, ignorant person.

Ironically, Bob did not fail to live up to his own stereotype of overreacting and accusing the other of what you are doing.

King of Nowhere
2018-07-04, 10:15 PM
Fair-but if they're friends, they would hopefully be amenable to trying something new. Especially something as simple as freeform-that's literally sitting around a table and telling stories together.


That strongly depends. I've suggested that, and no one was interested. For many people, learning one system is enough work. And believe it or not, free form still requires work to get good at and enjoy. Simply sitting around and telling stories is hard for lots of folks--they crave the structure that a rule set and DM bring.

It's often the case with groups of friends. When you create a group ffrom scratch, you can choose players with a certain mindset. When you take gaming to a group of friends, offten they have different goals. And in most cases you reach some sort of equilibrium that is specific to the group.
In my group I have a player who played a wizard for at least 30 sessions and still can't tell me the DC of her saving throws. We take care of that stuff for her. We have a guy who is much more invested in the worldbuilding and intricate plotting that happens behind the scene, and I talk with him in private about it outside of the table; he then summarizes what is happening and what they're going to do to the others, who take his lead. It's very disfunctional, but it works. And we'd never dissolve the group. When you are tightly knit friends, you can put up with things you wouldn't put up with from strangers

Khedrac
2018-07-05, 03:53 AM
I freely admit that I cheat at D&D. Perhaps I can help shed some light on why someone might.
Full marks for honesty, and also you have some good points for helping to understand others.

For me, it feels like something I have to do in order to have fun at the table. Because I want to win, and it's the only way I can. Now, I don't mean "winning" against the other players or against the DM, but against the adventure and whatever monsters we encounter.

I play D&D because I love the shared telling of a fantasy story, I love putting on a character and playing them, and I want to have fun with my friends. The problem is that D&D is not about that. It's about resources and optimisation and such things, which I have no interest in whatsoever. I would much prefer to play a randomly generated character or one the DM hands me than try to work out what the "best" character is. When it comes to levelling up, I ask my friends or the DM to tell me what they want me to take. For combat, I ask my friends what they want my character to do, or if they get tired of that to help me create a flowchart to tell me. Otherwise I try to play the character rather than the stats. And I get that's not how the game works.
Actually in many ways that is how the game should work, but yes, feeling you need everyone else to tell you what to do is very sub-optimal - for you as well as everyone else.

So, in order to not totally be useless, I "forget" penalties (if I remembered them), though I don't lie about the dice. In my view, it's balanced out by the fact that what I do is so much worse than the "expected" level of quality that it probably evens out on the monsters' side. Also, my friends and especially DM get very cross because I legitimately can't remember things that it feels like a social defense mechanism.
And other people "forget" penalties because they genuinely have forgotten them. Something to remember (especially if we play with friends) - if those friends play less than we do (and definitely if they don't DM or build characters for fun) then they may not know the gam as well as we do and there can be a lot of little rules tucked away in odd places that are actually quite important. (One of my main reasons for not wanting players to use sub-systems I am not familiar with is the number of times I have seen them make mistakes with the ones I do know.)

As for why they keep me around, we are friends and I really enjoy the non-stat stuff like working out dungeon traps, plus all the character stuff like intrigues and the like so I'm (hopefully) still fun to have around.
Now that is good to hear - but I do have a suggestion.
I think you may be playing the wrong type of character.
For example, assuming you are playing 3.5 then a fighter type is not the "simple, easy for new players" charcter that it was in previous editions - a fighter needs a player with a decent head for mental arithmetic, except at high optimization levels a sorceror is actually a better class for a new player than fighter!
So, next time there's a campaign break I would sit down with your group and discuss character choice. Think about what you like doing and are good at and see if you can play a character suited to that role - in 3.5 my suggestion would be bard - in combat mainly stand back and sing, possibly using a ranged weapon or the odd spell, out of combat step forward and talk your opponents into not fighting etc.

Jay R
2018-07-05, 01:05 PM
My long-term experience (43 years since my first D&D) is that it is always better to try to convince your friends to play role-playing games than to find role-playing strangers and try to make them friends.

Kaptin Keen
2018-07-05, 02:29 PM
My long-term experience (43 years since my first D&D) is that it is always better to try to convince your friends to play role-playing games than to find role-playing strangers and try to make them friends.

That's such condensed, distilled, concentrated wisdom. Closer to a universal truth than any other human statement I can think of.