Preparing against the Locate City Bomb

[HighWater]

Hello there Playground! I have come to ask two simple questions of the Hive Mind That Knows Too Much:

Q1: How would a group of refugees screen its population for people capable of, or almost capable of, performing the Locate City Bomb?
Q2: How would they mitigate the damage if a Locate City Bomb went off regardless of precautions?

Context:
This group of refugees has a population of around 11k, mostly spread over 5 settlements. They are the survivors of a previous LCB-detonation after which they have fled to their current plane. However large numbers of their companions were not so lucky and fear of a second strike is still paramount over two decades later. Although the refugees feel quite confident that no outsider will find their new home plane, they live in fear of The Enemy Within: nobody knows who the original LCB-caster was, or what has become of them, or whether they had any accomplishes that are also capable of learning the same technique. To assuage their fears and hopefully prevent a second strike, they have introduced a regime of regular screening of the population for people nearly capable of pulling off a Locate City Bomb.
How would they do such a thing?

The following restrictions apply:

The LCB is most effective vs low-level npc-classes, so quite a large share of the survivors have proper class levels. However...
Tactical strikes following the LCB-detonation have decimated the high-level population as the enemy forces tried to eliminate the most powerful during the chaos. This means that high level character availability is minimal at best. Assume that a “workable solution” must require no more than a couple level 8 characters, and a fair bunch of level 7 and 6… (If this turns out to be impossible, I will have to wire-in some high level survivors, but I would prefer not to.)
The refugees do not actually know precisely how an LCB works. They were aware that their enemies were researching the weapon and have a rudimentary understanding, but their own LCB-investigations were not quite there yet. Bonus points if the solution can reflect this. :smallwink:


The second question is the one of mitigating the damage.
So far, requiring all rooms to be no bigger than 10ft across or having room-dividers that can stop a flung person before they travel more than that distance seems like a good way to limit or even negate the damage for failed saves for those who happen to be indoors. The presence of potions of cure minor wounds to stabilize victims also seems sensible. What other precautions could the refugees take to limit casualties if the LCB went off?

[Venger]

Q1: any basic divination that gives a yes/no answer will suffice. "Can so and so cast locate city?" to know who can cast it.

Q2: an underground bunker would be sufficient, or even a single spellblade keyed to "locate city" which would absorb the spell and stop the trick from working

[BWR]

You protect against it by having a sensible GM that doesn't allow this sort of anti-RAI nonsense.

[Troacctid]

You protect against it by having a sensible GM that doesn't allow this sort of anti-RAI nonsense.
Also anti-RAW, if the nonsense in question involves applying Explosive Spell to locate city.

Of course if it already happened in the setting's canon, I guess whatever. In that case, you want to introduce the League of Eyes to your setting, along with the Urban Savant prestige class (Cityscape). With a DC 15 Knowledge (local) check, an Urban Savant can learn all of a creature's combat-related feats, which should reasonably include metamagic feats.

[heavyfuel]

There's also no RAW that says you can apply metamagic in any order you want, so a locate city bomb is strictly DM dependant

[Goaty14]

Q1: any basic divination that gives a yes/no answer will suffice. "Can so and so cast locate city?" to know who can cast it.

Might not work, since (IIRC) some divinations don't respond to multiple questions about the same topic.


Q2: an underground bunker would be sufficient, or even a single spellblade keyed to "locate city" which would absorb the spell and stop the trick from working


Spellblades only react to targeted spells. Guess what locate city isn't?

[ericgrau]

Q1: any basic divination that gives a yes/no answer will suffice. "Can so and so cast locate city?" to know who can cast it.

How do you screen an entire population this way? What about level ups? How do you do this reliably on all of them? For a single yes/no answer I found the divination spell which is a level 4 spell with a 77% base success rate. This doesn't sound "basic".

Btw wouldn't every single level 4+ ranger ping on a question like this? Do you really want to ask about the spell itself, and not maybe the explosive spell feat?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Give everyone 6 temp hp via repeating spell-traps. Since the area of locate city is a circle, the best Explosive Spell can do is move someone 5' by shunting them over to the side one space. And that's assuming the plane that a circle will create intersects them.

A permanencied Widened detect magic bomb is much, much more potent.

[EldritchWeaver]

There's also no RAW that says you can apply metamagic in any order you want, so a locate city bomb is strictly DM dependant

Is there a RAW which prescribes a certain order? If not, then it can be inferred that the designers didn't consider a particular order to be used.

[Mordaedil]

If order is not decided, how is an ocular-split ray'd-twinned spell resolved? Alphabetically or not at all?

[Nich_Critic]

In a high level campaign, my bbeg realized he couldn't attack the party directly, did he decided to mike their followers who had set up a small city in a demi plane. The PCs responded by destroying the city, reasoning that the spell couldn't locate a city if it wasn't there, and what they actually cared about was the population.

That campaign was silly though. They ended up wishing for multiple ice assassin of the bbeg, who couldn't defeat an army of beings with all his strengths who knew his weaknesses

[Nifft]

If order is not decided, how is an ocular-split ray'd-twinned spell resolved? Alphabetically or not at all?

Begging your DM.

[heavyfuel]

Is there a RAW which prescribes a certain order? If not, then it can be inferred that the designers didn't consider a particular order to be used.

The only RAW I'm aware of is Maximize and Empower, which explicitly are Empowered first and Maximized second. This might mean that other metamagic feats can be applied in any order you want. Since the rules are silent on the matter however, it really does rely on the DM to say what goes.


If order is not decided, how is an ocular-split ray'd-twinned spell resolved? Alphabetically or not at all?

It's resolved by


Begging your DM..

[Deophaun]

The only RAW I'm aware of is Maximize and Empower, which explicitly are Empowered first and Maximized second.
i think the word "explicitly" is the most abused word on these forums. Empowered and Maximize simply don't effect one another. The order they're applied is irrelevant as the spell would do the exact same amount of damage either way.

The general rule is that you apply effects in the method most beneficial to the effect's controller. That means the player determines the order for their character's metamagic.

[Nifft]

The general rule is that you apply effects in the method most beneficial to the effect's controller. That means the player determines the order for their character's metamagic.

Where is that general rule stated?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Empowered and Maximize simply don't effect one another.Of course they didn't. The designers effected them.

[heavyfuel]

i think the word "explicitly" is the most abused word on these forums. Empowered and Maximize simply don't effect one another. The order they're applied is irrelevant as the spell would do the exact same amount of damage either way.

The general rule is that you apply effects in the method most beneficial to the effect's controller. That means the player determines the order for their character's metamagic.

I honestly didn't check the srd when I made that post and I misremembered. Still doesn't change the end result.

Like Nifft, I'd also like to know where is this so called general rule.

[Galacktic]

As far as I can tell, there's no rule for Metamagic order at all:



Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell
In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.

The modifications made by these feats only apply to spells cast directly by the feat user. A spellcaster can’t use a metamagic feat to alter a spell being cast from a wand, scroll, or other device.

Metamagic feats that eliminate components of a spell don’t eliminate the attack of opportunity provoked by casting a spell while threatened. However, casting a spell modified by Quicken Spell does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Metamagic feats cannot be used with all spells. See the specific feat descriptions for the spells that a particular feat can’t modify.

Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell
A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

[heavyfuel]

As far as I can tell, there's no rule for Metamagic order at all:

Which is precisely why the existence of a locate city bomb depends on a DM ruling that metamagic is applied in the order the caster wants

[Aldrakan]

Which is precisely why the existence of a locate city bomb depends on a DM ruling that metamagic is applied in the order the caster wants

Order, order! It is well established that when something is ambiguous in RAW it works in precisely the manner that the player wants it to so as to enable the predetermined result they are working towards. /s

[HighWater]

Well I can definitely settle the RAW question, being the DM and all ==>


Rule Zero in this particular case states that a society that has invested Manhattan Project-resources into developing a "Locate City Bomb" will eventually find the nooks and crannies required to make this work in spite of ambivalent RAW. The "edge" of the circle will be the edge of its 2d plane, meaning it works precisely in the nasty way it is intended.

The Locate City Bomb and it's RAW/RAI workings is not the subject of this question. The debate regarding these issues can be quite fascinating, but they are off topic. Feel free to start a separate thread.

That the LCB works in this setting is, instead, a given: potential mitigations are what interests me. :smallsmile:


Q2: an underground bunker would be sufficient, or even a single spellblade keyed to "locate city" which would absorb the spell and stop the trick from working

Spellblades only react to targeted spells. Guess what locate city isn't?
For a moment I marveled at the idea of a City wearing a spellblade, but then I realised Locate City doesn't even target a city, so too bad. But still, thank you for that glorious mental picture. :smallbiggrin:
The bunkers might work by severely limiting the impact if they are built on different heights, so no 2d-plane passes through a majority of them... Quite expensive to create though.


In that case, you want to introduce the League of Eyes to your setting, along with the Urban Savant prestige class (Cityscape). With a DC 15 Knowledge (local) check, an Urban Savant can learn all of a creature's combat-related feats, which should reasonably include metamagic feats.
This sounds interesting, rife with fluffing options etcetera, I will look into it when I get near books!


How do you screen an entire population this way? What about level ups? How do you do this reliably on all of them? For a single yes/no answer I found the divination spell which is a level 4 spell with a 77% base success rate. This doesn't sound "basic".

Btw wouldn't every single level 4+ ranger ping on a question like this? Do you really want to ask about the spell itself, and not maybe the explosive spell feat?
Explosive spell feat would indeed be a better question, but at that point it might already be too late. Widening the search to include both Explosive spell and another feat in the chain would be necessary (with an `or` statement, so you catch people in progress, rather than when they can already pull this off). But 4th level spells with a 77% success rate is indeed extremely expensive, especially when people start leveling...


Give everyone 6 temp hp via repeating spell-traps. Since the area of locate city is a circle, the best Explosive Spell can do is move someone 5' by shunting them over to the side one space. And that's assuming the plane that a circle will create intersects them.

A permanencied Widened detect magic bomb is much, much more potent.
A circle is a 2d plane, my interpretation is that the third dimension doesn't count as an `edge` (and I am the DM). Permanent temp hp may help people caught in semi-confined spaces, where the are likely to hit something quite quickly, such as a forest... I'll look into the mentioned bomb, just in case I need a "hydrogen variant" in the future. :smallwink:


In a high level campaign, my bbeg realized he couldn't attack the party directly, did he decided to mike their followers who had set up a small city in a demi plane. The PCs responded by destroying the city, reasoning that the spell couldn't locate a city if it wasn't there, and what they actually cared about was the population.
This wouldn't stop a Locate City from being cast though, so the LCB would still go off? :smallconfused:

Thanks for the ideas so far, keep 'm coming! :smallbiggrin:

[Nich_Critic]

Now that I look at it, it shouldn't work, because the spell doesn't really care about cities. At the time we ruled that the spell failed if there were no cities to find, but I don't think I'd rule that way again

[Rijan_Sai]

It's been established that a spellblade would not work, due to the "spell must be one that is targeted against the wielder" clause, but would a ring of counter spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#counterspells) work?

This ring might seem to be a ring of spell storing upon first examination. However, while it allows a single spell of 1st through 6th level to be cast into it, that spell cannot be cast out of the ring again. Instead, should that spell ever be cast upon the wearer, the spell is immediately countered, as a counterspell action, requiring no action (or even knowledge) on the wearer’s part. Once so used, the spell cast within the ring is gone. A new spell (or the same one as before) may be placed in it again.
The bolded part is where the question lies... does that mean that the spell in question has to be targeted, (like the spellblade,) or is it any spell that would affect the target (ie: Fireball).
Or, would it not work anyway since Locate City isn't "cast upon the wearer;" or, since the wearer is being affected by the metamagics, it would work?

[heavyfuel]

Order, order! It is well established that when something is ambiguous in RAW it works in precisely the manner that the player wants it to so as to enable the predetermined result they are working towards. /s

Sorry your honor, I forgot about this. :smallfrown:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Nothing about locate city says it can bypass Line of Effect, so just build a dome (or continuous walls) around the city to protect it from outside and ensure that enough roadblocks are in the way on the inside to prevent someone from dealing damage to more than a small area inside of it.

Winding underground tunnels would work on both counts. Extremely thick forested areas outside and within would work, as well. And building in a mountain valley would, too.

Honestly, the spell is pretty well useless unless you're on the Elemental Plane of Air or similar, and you cast it lots of times so the spell's plane has multiple chances to intersect a city. And by that point, you can just see the city.

*Casts the spell.* "Look! I can see my house from here!"

So yeah, it's useless.

[Troacctid]

The reason it doesn't work by RAW, just for the benefit of anyone finding this thread by Google or whatever, is several-fold:

1. Flash Frost Spell makes a spell deal extra damage, and you have to already deal damage in order to deal extra damage. (The classic example is you don't deal sneak attack damage on the touch attack made to initiate a trip attempt.)
2. Even if it could deal damage, it would only be to the spell's targets, and Locate City doesn't target any creatures.
3. As mentioned upthread, Explosive Spell would still only shunt people 5 feet upward, because the area of the spell is technically a circle, not a sphere or hemisphere.

[Deophaun]

Where is that general rule stated?
I thought it was a rule, but it's in the FAQ (which I take as authoritative as long as it doesn't contradict anything else in RAW):

As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the “controller” of the effect.

[heavyfuel]

I thought it was a rule, but it's in the FAQ (which I take as authoritative as long as it doesn't contradict anything else in RAW):

So it doesn't work for the reasons Troacctid mentioned, and it also doesn't work unless you use the FAQ (Ha!)

Yeah. Might as well say it doesn't work at all and that if you're worried about catastrophe level spells you're better off warding your city against a Blizzard (FrostB) or an Apocalypse from the Sky (BoVD).

[Deophaun]

So it doesn't work for the reasons Troacctid mentioned, and it also doesn't work unless you use the FAQ (Ha!)
Well, to be fair, "begging the DM" to find out the order of operation for every combination of effects just winds up making the whole game arbitrary. I'll gladly take the FAQ over that.

It's the least authoritative source, but it's still authoritative.

[Nifft]

Well, to be fair, "begging the DM" to find out the order of operation for every combination of effects just winds up making the whole game arbitrary. I'll gladly take the FAQ over that.

It's the least authoritative source, but it's still authoritative.

You'd rather beg the DM to allow the FAQ to be a valid source, in spite all its contradictions of other sources?

You're going to be begging either way, it's just you choose to beg for poison.



When there's an ambiguity, the DM must step in, because it's a situation which the rules-writers did not anticipate. That's a big part of why the game requires a referee in the first place.

[Telonius]

Assuming that the Locate City Bomb actually functions the way it's supposed to, Arcane Sight (3rd-level Wizard spell) would be a decent first line of defense for determining what portion (if any) of the survivors are capable of casting spells. If the spellcaster hasn't taken precautions to hide himself (Nondetection, Mind Blank, or the like) he'll blip as a caster, and they'll know if he's arcane or divine. If he's a Sorcerer, unless he's used up his daily higher-level spells he's kind of hosed. (Wizards could get away with pinging as lower level if they haven't prepared any higher-level spells that day).

[Deophaun]

You'd rather beg the DM to allow the FAQ to be a valid source, in spite all its contradictions of other sources?
Sources contradict each other all the time. There's no begging. It's a valid source, just where it conflicts with anything else, it is wrong. Happens to conflict a lot so it happens to be wrong a lot. Here, though, there is no contradiction, so it's actually right.

You're going to be begging either way, it's just you choose to beg for poison.
By the same token, I'm begging the DM to let me use the PHB. I'm begging the DM to let me use the Completes. I'm begging the DM to let me use the ECS.

The difference is, "begging" the DM to let me use those sources does not require me to constantly and continuously check with the DM to know if what I'm doing actually works. That's what you want; the players constantly saying "DM may I please use the character I built?"

When there's an ambiguity, the DM must step in, because it's a situation which the rules-writers did not anticipate. That's a big part of why the game requires a referee in the first place.
Except they did address this. Your ambiguity was resolved in the FAQ.

[Troacctid]

Really the more likely solution if they don't know how it was done would be to issue a flat ban on unauthorized spellcasting. They don't know it was done with metamagic, they don't know it was done with certain spells, but they do know it was done by magic. Solution? Ban magic.

It would be easy for a demagogue to use the disaster to stoke public opinion against mages, perhaps even using that fear to gather enough of a base to seize power, turning the city into a dictatorship and establishing a special police force to round up all the unlicensed casters in the name of public safety. Political opponents could be accused of using magic as an excuse to imprison or execute them. Adventurers would either need to swear fealty to the dictator or refrain from any spellcasting inside the city's jurisdiction and oh this is just Mulmaster isn't it? I've invented Mulmaster.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Really the more likely solution if they don't know how it was done would be to issue a flat ban on unauthorized spellcasting. They don't know it was done with metamagic, they don't know it was done with certain spells, but they do know it was done by magic. Solution? Ban magic.What, ban the people that are vastly more powerful than you (the more puissant of which can curb-stomp the gods themselves) from anything? That's a good way to get deposed as something small, slimy, and very, very squishy.

If a caster is not already in control of the situation, that just means you haven't found the wizard pulling the strings yet.

[ManicOppressive]

What, ban the people that are vastly more powerful than you (the more puissant of which can curb-stomp the gods themselves) from anything? That's a good way to get deposed as something small, slimy, and very, very squishy.

If a caster is not already in control of the situation, that just means you haven't found the wizard pulling the strings yet.

I mean... Yeah. If you are going to have high level casters in your setting, and they're not already in charge of everything, you'd better have a good reason why. But if you're talking about epic-level casters then they're probably not mucking around with Locate City bombs as opposed to using magic that doesn't cause a strange omnipresent voice from above to sigh audibly.

[Nifft]

Sources contradict each other all the time. There's no begging. It's a valid source, just where it conflicts with anything else, it is wrong. Happens to conflict a lot so it happens to be wrong a lot. Here, though, there is no contradiction, so it's actually right.

By the same token, I'm begging the DM to let me use the PHB. I'm begging the DM to let me use the Completes. I'm begging the DM to let me use the ECS.

I guess you're trying to be obtuse because you dislike the word "begging"? Well, too bad. The fact is that you need the DM's permission to include any source, and you need the DM's permission to use any variant rule, and the DM can change the non-variant rules at will.

If you're trying to make an equivalence between the PHB and the FAQ, then you're just plain wrong. The FAQ is nowhere near as commonly included as the PHB. The FAQ isn't nearly as well-regarded as even the worst of the Completes. The expectation that any given DM uses the FAQ is unrelated to any particular campaign setting. Sorry, not buying that.

If you're just now realizing that the DM could throw out bits of the PHB at-will: that's true, but not particularly relevant to this discussion. You could beg to get those parts back, I guess? But the DM presumably had a good reason for excluding that PHB content.


The other thing you're missing is that you're requesting that your DM include something that isn't merely game-altering -- it's actively game-worsening.

If the D&D FAQ is your answer, you need a better question.

[Troacctid]

What, ban the people that are vastly more powerful than you (the more puissant of which can curb-stomp the gods themselves) from anything? That's a good way to get deposed as something small, slimy, and very, very squishy.

If a caster is not already in control of the situation, that just means you haven't found the wizard pulling the strings yet.
That's why you force the casters to swear fealty. Then they enforce the ban themselves.

Magic can be a powerful threat to leadership. This threat is somewhat lessened if the practitioners of magic are watched, controlled, and indoctrinated into the service of the city. Whether or not this philosophy is correct is irrelevant, because it is the reason for the existence of the Brotherhood of the Cloak. Any wizard of 4th level or higher is required to join the Cloaks, upon penalty of exile. Anyone who chooses not to join and is then caught casting a spell is dealt with harshly; penalties include torture, maiming, and often death.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's why you force the casters to swear fealty. Then they enforce the ban themselves.Okay. Try to force the infinitely more powerful demigod+'s to do something. See how well that works.

[Troacctid]

Okay. Try to force the infinitely more powerful demigod+'s to do something. See how well that works.
You get the strongest ones on your side first. Because the only thing more powerful than a high-level caster is a high-level Diplomacy check to turn them from unfriendly to helpful.

[D+1]

Hello there Playground! I have come to ask two simple questions of the Hive Mind That Knows Too Much:

Q1: How would a group of refugees screen its population for people capable of, or almost capable of, performing the Locate City Bomb?
Q2: How would they mitigate the damage if a Locate City Bomb went off regardless of precautions?
As I understand the LCB concept your questions are utterly invalidated by the fact that a DM is actually permitting it to happen in the first place. (Speaking personally, I would simply not permit the attachment of damage BY ANY MEANS to a spell that is not designed with any kind of damage infliction already in mind - hence, the stupendous AOE in the first place.) It's a briefly, and strictly mildly amusing exercise for those fascinated by the ways of deliberately breaking the game, but like PunPun bears no serious consideration in any actual campaign situation. A reasonable DM will just say no. Questions are then moot. If a DM permits it, whatever comes to their campaign is fully deserved and entirely on their own head.

At most I would simply have it done first by an NPC named Joshua so I could bring the campaign to an abrupt and permanent halt with the statement:
"The only winning move is not to play."
Game over.

JMO

[Telonius]

Personally, I'm looking at this as a thought exercise or playing a game of "Find the Caster." I don't think it really matters if the guy actually cast the Locate City Bomb specifically. It could have been any magical catastrophe; point is, loads of people died, they're paranoid that Wizard What Did It is still at large. They want to find out who it is, but have relatively low magical resources.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Personally, I'm looking at this as a thought exercise or playing a game of "Find the Caster." I don't think it really matters if the guy actually cast the Locate City Bomb specifically. It could have been any magical catastrophe; point is, loads of people died, they're paranoid that Wizard What Did It is still at large. They want to find out who it is, but have relatively low magical resources.Pay a high level seer psion to manifest metafaculty to find the culprit.

There is no escape.

The More You Know! *Star!*

[Jack_Simth]

How do you screen an entire population this way? What about level ups? How do you do this reliably on all of them? For a single yes/no answer I found the divination spell which is a level 4 spell with a 77% base success rate. This doesn't sound "basic".

Btw wouldn't every single level 4+ ranger ping on a question like this? Do you really want to ask about the spell itself, and not maybe the explosive spell feat?
How much cheddar do you want?

Wizard or Sorcerer 7 with Improved Familiar(Mirror Memphit) (the Mirror Memphit is from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, Improved Familiar is Core). The familiar can make a Simulacrum 1/day as a spell-like ability. Imps get Commune 1/week, and are well within the familiar's caster level range. The Sims are Instant, perfectly loyal, and can be built up. So the first day, you make one imp, get your six questions. The next day, you make a second imp, and get your six questions. And so on. After 7 days, you've gotten 6*7 = 42 questions in ... and the first imp has recharged. You keep making sims. So on day 8, you make another sim, and have two of the imps ask six questions each. On day 9, the second sim has recharged, and you make another one, getting another 12 questions. And so on. So 42 questions the first week, 84 questions the second week, 126 questions the third week, 168 questions the fourth week... and 42 + 84 + 126 + 168 = 420 questions in those first four weeks. It just goes up faster & faster. One year (52 weeks) in, you've had the option of 57,876 yes/no questions. And that's before you realize that you can make Mirror Memphits of Advanced Mirror Memphits to get standard strength Mirror Memphits (which REALLY blows the curve out of the water).

As to defenses... one of the things that will be noted is that many more rogues survived than any other class (it permits a reflex save). Rings of Evasion for everyone!

The spell does not explicitly bypass line-of-effect rules. Among other things, this means that well fitting doors and windows, kept closed, will do wonders. Perhaps the city is now a maze of doors with mud rooms....

[Goaty14]

If the city simply bans all snow/ice within the city and surrounding area, then snow/ice should reasonably become contraband and therefore have a price over 1gp. This means 1) Costing over 1gp, it no longer appears in spell component pouches/eschew materials 2) Without snow/ice, snowcasting doesn't function properly, thus ruining the combination.

TL;DR Make everybody in the city treat snow/ice like uranium in the (american) 50's.

[tiercel]

Well I can definitely settle the RAW question, being the DM and all ==>

Rule Zero in this particular case states that a society that has invested Manhattan Project-resources into developing a "Locate City Bomb" will eventually find the nooks and crannies required to make this work in spite of ambivalent RAW. The "edge" of the circle will be the edge of its 2d plane, meaning it works precisely in the nasty way it is intended.

The Locate City Bomb and it's RAW/RAI workings is not the subject of this question. The debate regarding these issues can be quite fascinating, but they are off topic. Feel free to start a separate thread.

That the LCB works in this setting is, instead, a given: potential mitigations are what interests me. :smallsmile:



Given that in this setting, the LCB works, but involves dedicating resources to the shenanigans necessary to make it work...

...I can't help but think that Someone would have a vested interest in "Thou Shalt Not Shenanigan in This Fashion."

Could be the entire clergy of the setting's God of Magic, or, a certain kind of Inevitable. (The latter do tend to get a bee in their bonnet about people playing fast and loose with The Rules.)

Of course, this potentially sets up an entire campaign's worth of "the cure is worse than the disease" if the refugees successfully invoke the wrath of either of these parties against the nuclear LCB-wielding powers, given that (A) the wrath of an actual God usually doesn't turn out the way you plan and (B) Lawful Neutral -- much less actual paragons of the alignment -- can be, well, as Schlock Mercenary puts it: " They're accustomed to using statements like 'regrettable collateral damage' and 'appropriate compensation to next-of-kin.' "

[HighWater]

Sorry it took so long to respond, sometimes real life gets in the way! :smallwink:


Nothing about locate city says it can bypass Line of Effect, so just build a dome (or continuous walls) around the city to protect it from outside and ensure that enough roadblocks are in the way on the inside to prevent someone from dealing damage to more than a small area inside of it.

Winding underground tunnels would work on both counts. Extremely thick forested areas outside and within would work, as well. And building in a mountain valley would, too.

These do paint some nice mental pictures, I'll see if I can fit some of this in.


Assuming that the Locate City Bomb actually functions the way it's supposed to, Arcane Sight (3rd-level Wizard spell) would be a decent first line of defense for determining what portion (if any) of the survivors are capable of casting spells. If the spellcaster hasn't taken precautions to hide himself (Nondetection, Mind Blank, or the like) he'll blip as a caster, and they'll know if he's arcane or divine. If he's a Sorcerer, unless he's used up his daily higher-level spells he's kind of hosed. (Wizards could get away with pinging as lower level if they haven't prepared any higher-level spells that day).
This could be a nice addition to the regular "screenings" of people. Definitely not foolproof, but that only makes it a nicer tool in the DM story box... :smallbiggrin:


Personally, I'm looking at this as a thought exercise or playing a game of "Find the Caster." I don't think it really matters if the guy actually cast the Locate City Bomb specifically. It could have been any magical catastrophe; point is, loads of people died, they're paranoid that Wizard What Did It is still at large. They want to find out who it is, but have relatively low magical resources.
This was actually what I was going for, but I foolishly introduced a specific example that had a lot of moving parts that people might find "counters" for (pinging feat selection, maybe class composition, spell capacity, the fact that there's snow involved...) in the hopes of sparking the imagination. For some it did that, for others it sparked the rules debate that this forum is also very adept at (and which can be very helpful at times). I've noted this take-home point for future reference. :smallwink:


As to defenses... one of the things that will be noted is that many more rogues survived than any other class (it permits a reflex save). Rings of Evasion for everyone!

The spell does not explicitly bypass line-of-effect rules. Among other things, this means that well fitting doors and windows, kept closed, will do wonders. Perhaps the city is now a maze of doors with mud rooms....
Hmmm, strange. Somehow I did not consider that some PC classes have better Reflex saves than others. I will add this in, thanks!
A city (well, town, really) composed of a maze of doors and mud rooms not only fits the paranoia, but also resonates very well with uprooted and devastated refugees. This will do quite nicely!


If the city simply bans all snow/ice within the city and surrounding area, then snow/ice should reasonably become contraband and therefore have a price over 1gp. This means 1) Costing over 1gp, it no longer appears in spell component pouches/eschew materials 2) Without snow/ice, snowcasting doesn't function properly, thus ruining the combination.

TL;DR Make everybody in the city treat snow/ice like uranium in the (american) 50's.
Yup, that's nice (nevermind the silly of fresh snow being normally present in spell component pouches). Definitely adding snow to the list of very illegal contraband!


Given that in this setting, the LCB works, but involves dedicating resources to the shenanigans necessary to make it work...

...I can't help but think that Someone would have a vested interest in "Thou Shalt Not Shenanigan in This Fashion."

Could be the entire clergy of the setting's God of Magic, or, a certain kind of Inevitable. (The latter do tend to get a bee in their bonnet about people playing fast and loose with The Rules.)

Of course, this potentially sets up an entire campaign's worth of "the cure is worse than the disease" if the refugees successfully invoke the wrath of either of these parties against the nuclear LCB-wielding powers, given that (A) the wrath of an actual God usually doesn't turn out the way you plan and (B) Lawful Neutral -- much less actual paragons of the alignment -- can be, well, as Schlock Mercenary puts it: " They're accustomed to using statements like 'regrettable collateral damage' and 'appropriate compensation to next-of-kin.' "
This actually gives me some nice new campaign ideas... Just not for this campaign! :smallbiggrin: This could be a very interesting spinoff though. Thank you!

[BassoonHero]

2. Even if it could deal damage, it would only be to the spell's targets, and Locate City doesn't target any creatures.


Under this interpretation, are there any spells that can be used with Flash Frost?

[Nifft]

Under this interpretation, are there any spells that can be used with Flash Frost? Area effect spells which damage creatures, presumably.

Here's a well-known example:



A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.


Area effects which don't damage creatures -- such as reverse gravity -- probably don't interact with Flash Frost.

[gomipile]

Nothing about locate city says it can bypass Line of Effect, [snip]





A circle is a 2d plane, my interpretation is that the third dimension doesn't count as an `edge` (and I am the DM).

Are the two of you forgetting this explanatory text in the original spell description?:



This spell measures the distance to the "nearest"
community as the minimum distance one would have to travel to reach the city without moving through solid objects.
Thus, a caster on the surface isn't likely to locate a subterranean city half a mile beneath his feet, even if the next closest community is 5 miles away overland.


"Isn't likely to" implies that if there were a(unlikely, but possible) path through air and/or liquid to said subterranean city that was shorter than 5 miles, then Locate City would find the subterranean city instead. All it cares about is the total distance traveled not passing through solids. It doesn't respect line of effect or flat 2d planes.

[Troacctid]

Are the two of you forgetting this explanatory text in the original spell description?:



"Isn't likely to" implies that if there were a(unlikely, but possible) path through air and/or liquid to said subterranean city that was shorter than 5 miles, then Locate City would find the subterranean city instead. All it cares about is the total distance traveled not passing through solids. It doesn't respect line of effect or flat 2d planes.
That's covered by the range, which extends in all directions. The area, as it turns out, is actually totally irrelevant to the spell's normal functioning, because the spell doesn't need to affect anyone or anything in the area except for the caster.

[Nifft]

That's covered by the range, which extends in all directions. The area, as it turns out, is actually totally irrelevant to the spell's normal functioning, because the spell doesn't need to affect anyone or anything in the area except for the caster.

It's one of several "fixed range" spells which should really be Range: Personal instead, since all it does is impart information to the caster.

[Jack_Simth]

Are the two of you forgetting this explanatory text in the original spell description?:



"Isn't likely to" implies that if there were a(unlikely, but possible) path through air and/or liquid to said subterranean city that was shorter than 5 miles, then Locate City would find the subterranean city instead. All it cares about is the total distance traveled not passing through solids. It doesn't respect line of effect or flat 2d planes.
A door is solid. If the path requires going through a door that's currently closed... well, sorry.

[BassoonHero]

Area effect spells which damage creatures, presumably.
The objection I'm addressing is that locate city does not target any creatures, but Flash Frost deals damage to the spell's targets. Fireball also does not target any creatures.

I agree that Flash Frost is meant to be used with area effect spells, regardless of whether they target any creatures. The use of "target" in the feat text is poor wording. Thus it would work with fireball[i], and if the objection about "extra" damage were removed (which I don't mean to argue) then it would also work with [i]reverse gravity and locate city.

[Rijan_Sai]

If the city simply bans all snow/ice within the city and surrounding area, then snow/ice should reasonably become contraband and therefore have a price over 1gp. This means 1) Costing over 1gp, it no longer appears in spell component pouches/eschew materials 2) Without snow/ice, snowcasting doesn't function properly, thus ruining the combination.

TL;DR Make everybody in the city treat snow/ice like uranium in the (american) 50's.

Yup, that's nice (nevermind the silly of fresh snow being normally present in spell component pouches). Definitely adding snow to the list of very illegal contraband!

I'm only going to address this point, as it's been bothering me since it was introduced... Even if the snow and ice is contraband here, it's not necessarily contraband there. Unless the caster never leaves the community for any reason, (and it never snows,) s/he should have some access to that particular item (and yes, silliness of fresh snow in the SPC aside :smallbiggrin:) To my knowledge, "Nature" never charges for that she gives for free... (in GP; not accounting for cost in HP and lives :smalltongue:)

Of course, if someone is found with illegal-contraband-snow-and-ice in their pouch, that is a whole new set of issues!

[Erit]

Where would Mind Blank fall into all this, since it renders one imperceptible to Divination spells of which Locate City is one? Say I have some kind of permanent Mind Blank effect and someone LCB's the town I'm in, would being exempt from Divination effects also exempt me from the effects of Flash Frost and the follow-up effects?

[Troacctid]

Locate City doesn't perceive creatures in the first place. The only way for Mind Blank to protect against it would be if the city were also a creature. It's not unheard of for that to be the case, but I imagine it's pretty uncommon in most worlds.

[AtlasSniperman]

I don't know about the hard lower bound on how it could be done. But I would assume the hard upper bound on what is necessary is a magic item of extended Anti-magic field. or a contingent Anti-magic field.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmmm, strange. Somehow I did not consider that some PC classes have better Reflex saves than others. I will add this in, thanks!
A city (well, town, really) composed of a maze of doors and mud rooms not only fits the paranoia, but also resonates very well with uprooted and devastated refugees. This will do quite nicely!... Oh, just in case of confusion: By "Mud room" I don't mean "a room made of mud" but more "a room for mud" - a small room at an entrance, doors on both sides, for taking off one's boots when coming in so as not to soil the floors of the house proper. With such a thing, it's entirely possible that the interior of the house ALWAYS has a closed door between the people in the house and the outside.

[HighWater]

Some nice new replies again, it keeps the mind sharp!

Where would Mind Blank fall into all this, since it renders one imperceptible to Divination spells of which Locate City is one? Say I have some kind of permanent Mind Blank effect and someone LCB's the town I'm in, would being exempt from Divination effects also exempt me from the effects of Flash Frost and the follow-up effects?


Locate City doesn't perceive creatures in the first place. The only way for Mind Blank to protect against it would be if the city were also a creature. It's not unheard of for that to be the case, but I imagine it's pretty uncommon in most worlds.
The city being a creature would be a very nice twist, but it doesn't help against the LCB because the LCB (in its original conception) doesn't care if there is any city to be found...


I'm only going to address this point, as it's been bothering me since it was introduced... Even if the snow and ice is contraband here, it's not necessarily contraband there. Unless the caster never leaves the community for any reason, (and it never snows,) s/he should have some access to that particular item (and yes, silliness of fresh snow in the SPC aside :smallbiggrin:) To my knowledge, "Nature" never charges for that she gives for free... (in GP; not accounting for cost in HP and lives :smalltongue:)

Of course, if someone is found with illegal-contraband-snow-and-ice in their pouch, that is a whole new set of issues!
It's a good thing that where the refugees live, fresh snow is actually impossible to come by without making it yourself (which means it's not-free). (This is actually not something I made up on the spot to counter your argument :smallcool:.)

Hmmm, this does beg the question if it appears in the spellcomponent pouches of the PCs, who come from a place where fresh snow could be had through natural means... I think the conclusion here is that spellcomponent pouches are silly things when looked at purely RAW and that their intended purpose was probably "you do not need to micromanage your spell components, let alone anticipate the spell components you'd need for a spell you'll learn in 4 levels because you happen to be in a big dungeon that doesn't feature a spell component shop... cause that really gets in the way of having fun".


Are the two of you forgetting this explanatory text in the original spell description?:
"Isn't likely to" implies that if there were a(unlikely, but possible) path through air and/or liquid to said subterranean city that was shorter than 5 miles, then Locate City would find the subterranean city instead. All it cares about is the total distance traveled not passing through solids. It doesn't respect line of effect or flat 2d planes.
Yes. Whatever it is, it's not actually a circle in a Euclidean plane... I'd imagine it's some kind of 'wrap around' effect that follows the lay of the land. Has it been mentioned that the LCB is rather silly, whether it works or not? :smallwink: No wonder enemy society X needed Manhatten style resources to crack this case and may get in serious trouble with the Gods if they find out...:smallbiggrin:

Also quite interesting that it doesn't specify what happens to cities in the sky. This suggests that the writer of that spell (and the editor) missed the Flying City concept altogether.


I don't know about the hard lower bound on how it could be done. But I would assume the hard upper bound on what is necessary is a magic item of extended Anti-magic field. or a contingent Anti-magic field.
Yeah, that's out of the refugees' reach, but seems a valid option otherwise.


... Oh, just in case of confusion: By "Mud room" I don't mean "a room made of mud" but more "a room for mud" - a small room at an entrance, doors on both sides, for taking off one's boots when coming in so as not to soil the floors of the house proper. With such a thing, it's entirely possible that the interior of the house ALWAYS has a closed door between the people in the house and the outside.
Well, your expansion on this topic to clear up confusion was warranted. I was thinking of loam buildings (with no windows) all this time!

This is the internet though, so I will pretend you never clarified and run with my interpretation of what you said instead. :smallwink:

(Fine, fine, we'll compromise: I'll add mud rooms to my mud buildings!)

[Jack_Simth]

Well, your expansion on this topic to clear up confusion was warranted. I was thinking of loam buildings (with no windows) all this time!

This is the internet though, so I will pretend you never clarified and run with my interpretation of what you said instead. :smallwink:

(Fine, fine, we'll compromise: I'll add mud rooms to my mud buildings!)

Oh, feel free to run with sod houses and such. The idea, though, is that there's always a closed door between the inside and the outside. To get in, you have a door that opens to a tiny room. You then step in, close the outer door, and open the inner door. At no point is anyone on the inside exposed to the outside. All line of effect is stopped by a solid object. As Locate City is effectively a spread (stopped by solid barriers, but can go around things), that will stop one from affecting most of the population.

[Nifft]

Oh, feel free to run with sod houses and such. The idea, though, is that there's always a closed door between the inside and the outside. To get in, you have a door that opens to a tiny room. You then step in, close the outer door, and open the inner door. At no point is anyone on the inside exposed to the outside. All line of effect is stopped by a solid object. As Locate City is effectively a spread (stopped by solid barriers, but can go around things), that will stop one from affecting most of the population.

Mud is a fine justification in warmer, wetter climates.

In colder climates, a room like that might be used to preserve heat inside the inner rooms.

In deserts, it might be more about keeping moisture in, or keeping heat out during the day, or "dusting off" to not track sand in the house.

[Jack_Simth]

Mud is a fine justification in warmer, wetter climates.

In colder climates, a room like that might be used to preserve heat inside the inner rooms.

In deserts, it might be more about keeping moisture in, or keeping heat out during the day, or "dusting off" to not track sand in the house.Oh yes, there's lots of possible reasons for the structural arrangement, including keeping high winds from causing problems inside the building (you may see a variation on that one in Chicago restaurants). The first term I encountered for the arrangement was "mud room", however, so that's the one I'll generally go with.