3.5 Paladin Help

[Mildly Inept]

Hello, new guy here. I'm used to playing 5e and the occasional game of Pathfinder, but the DM for our 5th edition campaign has been lately, so another player has taken up the mantle for DM and started a 3.5 campaign, starting at level 5. As my 5e character was an alcoholic high elf wizard with three ex-wives, I thought it might be fun to try something different, so I decided to make my 3.5 character his twin sister, a paladin who is his opposite in nearly every way. (Plus, I only had two days to make a character and familiarize myself with the rules, so I figured it might be for the best to choose a fairly straightforward beatstick, and I rolled absurdly well for stats and figured I might as well give a MAD class a go.) While she has proven really good at hitting evil things, I'm kinda bored, as this and using the cure wounds wand are the only things she can do.

My original plan was to prestige into Fist of Raziel at Level 7, get improved critical and switch over to a falchion, and eventually get an item with permanent Lion's Charge for Pounce, allowing me to open up with a series of devastating smites that auto-confirm crits. This is still Plan A, but if there's a way to make her able to have more options inside and out of combat without compromising her fighting capabilities, I'd be interested to hear it. FWIW, we're playing with Flaws, but I haven't added any. He said it would be okay if I took the Pride of Arms flaw (-4 to non-martial weapons, fists, and touch attacks) in exchange for a Feat, but I'm hesitant to take it because I'm paranoid.

The other party members are a dwarf shield/axe fighter, an elf wizard/rogue, and an elf wizard. (DM said elves and dwarves only for this campaign.) Here's what my character looks like after our first game:

Wood Elf Paladin, 5
22 STR 15 DEX 16 CON 10 INT 13 WIS 18 CHA
Items: +1 Greatsword w/ Sudden Stunning, Cloak of Charisma +2, Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2, Shortbow w/ 20 arrows, Holy Symbol, +1 Banded Armor, Rations, Rope, Waterskin, Lamp, Oil
Alternate Class Feature: Charging Smite
Skills: Diplomacy +12, Knowledge (Religion) +8, Listen +3, Search +2, Spot +3
Feats: Power Attack, Divine Might

I was thinking maybe multiclassing into Crusader, but apparently the smite bonuses don't stack.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Crusader at 5 then into Ruby Knight Vindicator. Gives you lots of combat options that aren't just smite; yes/no and combat basics that everyone gets.

The alternative is to go hard at the casting with something like sword of the arcane order, at least, or prestiging into something like suel arcanamach or divine crusader or something like that.

Do take a -good- look at the expanded paladin list with SpC and Complete Champion. There's some nice stuff in there.

[Kayblis]

Going Crusader is probably the best you could do - and RKV is a good PrC for it. As you're one of the only two main frontliners, you'll need the tankiness.

Do think about flaws again, though. Flaws are one of those things that you should always take, either as a character building aid or just for the raw power. A feat is worth much more than what flaws take away. You could get Battle Blessing, a divine feat that lets Paladins cast their spells as swift actions to get your buffs up without expending a turn. Low-power games also benefit greatly from Cleave, specially on the frontline where you'll be close to more than one opponent all the time. Trust me, flaws like Vulnerable, Shaky or Pathetic aren't an issue for most people. Chances are you won't notice Inattentive at all if you don't invest heavily on perception skills, as your roll loses competitiveness fast while the Rogue's solves most problems. It's a team game, so it's okay to not be good at something if you can trust your teammates to deal with it.

[Mildly Inept]

Thanks for the suggestions, Kelb and Kayblis.

I think it's too late to radically remake the character, seeing how I've already played a session, but I'll think about adding some flaws since the DM said it was okay. I was considering Implacable (-2 to basically everything for an hour if you flee melee.) The only thing I'd feel comfortable removing from the character is the Sudden Stunning from the greatsword in exchange for another 2000 gold since I was planning on buying it between sessions. Would a 1 level dip in Crusader followed by Fist of Raziel be okay, or should I go Paladin 5/Crusader 15? I think FoR really suits the whole "evil-smashing paragon" thing I was going for, so in terms of combat, I'm okay with Paladin 6/Fist of Raziel 10/Whatever 4 (assuming we ever get to level 20,) but I'd really like more stuff to do outside of combat. I was hoping a high diplomacy score would let me do stuff, but right now we're investigating an attack on the village, and I'm of no help whatsoever.

Maybe I should just cash in a flaw for Leadership and recruit people who can do non-smashy stuff for me? An artificer to make magic weapons or a ranger or druid to compensate for our lack of nature skills would be useful.

In terms of plain ol' smashing things, should I stick with my tried and true greatsword or go falchion? If it's not that big a difference, I might trade a flaw for Weapon Focus: Greatsword since it would be in character and immediately useful, (plus quite frankly, I like the greatsword more aesthetically,) but auto-confirming crits on smites + a falchion with improved critical sounds quite potent.

Sometimes I feel like the surplus of options in 3.5 has fried my brain, lol.

[Troacctid]

You're presumably the most charismatic member of your party, so I'd probably lean a little into the party face role. Invest in Diplomacy and try and get access to telepathy or Tongues.

Leadership is a super strong feat that will almost always be good. Other feats you should be looking at are Awesome Smite and Battle Blessing, both of which are very good on a Paladin.

If you're going into Fist of Raziel or a similar prestige class, I think you should consider dipping Cloistered Cleric first so that you can have a more favorable casting progression. Dipping Crusader or Warblade would be a good call as well; they're pretty much always going to be good if you have a melee focus.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Out of combat utility for a paladin is going to come from spells and items. To that end, pick up the feat Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor pg34) and a spell book. Plenty of low level utility spells on the wizard list. Like I said before, there's some really nice goodies in the paladin list too, you've just got to look around. There are plenty of dnd tools on the web to help you filter through spells.

[Mildly Inept]

I suppose, but isn't the Wizard always going to be better at Wizarding than me? Wouldn't it make more sense to focus on something he couldn't do? I mean, granted, I'm not quite sure what a 3.5 Wizard couldn't do at higher levels, but still...

Also, seeing how we've already some nasty touch AC level drain spells, would picking up Cursebreaker be worth it?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I suppose, but isn't the Wizard always going to be better at Wizarding than me? Wouldn't it make more sense to focus on something he couldn't do? I mean, granted, I'm not quite sure what a 3.5 Wizard couldn't do at higher levels, but still...

Also, seeing how we've already some nasty touch AC level drain spells, would picking up Cursebreaker be worth it?

Of course the wizard will always do it better. The class is designed to be the utility effect character. Here's the thing; you don't have to get the same spells in your book he does. Where you do want the same spells, you can borrow his book to copy them and pay only the scribing cost. Where you don't, you pay full price to scribe them from a scroll or a city-wizard's rented book. You also don't have to prepare the same spells on any given day even if -all- of your wizard spells came out of his book. If you coordinate with each other, you won't be stepping on each other's toes.

There's essentially nothing a paladin can do that a wizard can't. You do the face-smashy thing better than him but, with the right spells, he can do that too.

You can't get curse breaker without delaying entry into FoR if you're taking that dip into a martial adept class (highly recommended) and it's simply not worth it to do so.

[Mildly Inept]

Fair enough, thanks. Honestly, I have no idea what the ideal level of optimization to go for here is, because my other party members are two non-optimized RP builds and a Wizard that's gonna go into Incantrix, so there's kind of a sizeable power differential. I kinda figured I'd split the difference and go for a well-built martial class. Anyway, the DM said I could design my cohort if I took Leadership. Any thoughts there? I figure if I take a suitably good cohort, I won't have to dip any caster levels because I'll have a buddy to take care of that stuff for me. Considering getting an Artificer cohort to make us stuff, but it seems like a lot of paperwork...

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd probably go with a buffing specialist archivist, unless that's the road the wizard's already on. Pull from -all- the (divine)spell lists for buffs and utility that the wizard will struggle to grab (not that he can't still get it if he knows what he's doing.)

Artificer can, indeed, do it better but it's much harder to pull off because of the need for down-time. Your instinct regarding paperwork is correct. Unless you're just going to do with him what you'd do with the archivist (at greater overall cost) you're going to do a lot of book diving. Easy solution; have the archivist pick up craft wondrous item and/or craft arms and armor.

Here's something no party crafter should ignore unless the DM says "no" http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a

[Mildly Inept]

I'll have to discuss it with the Wizard because he was talking about going for a fairly buff-heavy build. On the bright side, I suppose I don't have to worry about dipping into a caster level if I can get a helper to do it for me, so I can focus on being a bigger, tougher beatstick. Could take a couple flaws (inattentive and implacable, perhaps?) to get Weapon Focus: Greatsword and Servant of the Heavens, then take Leadership and the Fist of Raziel PrC next level, with an archivist to make up for the stunted spell casting. Or skip the Greatsword feats and switch over to a Falchion with Improved Critical at higher levels. I dunno. Still have a week to mull it over.

Will probably take a Crusader next time I do a 3.5 campaign tbh, but live and learn. I think I had 5e and Pathfinder on the brain when picking my class, since the Paladin's quite a bit better there. But with a bit of work, I'm confident I can make my Paladin a decently strong and fun character. One-shotting that Bugbear Cleric with a Charging Smite was quite entertaining.

[Troacctid]

I would go for the crits, but I'd get a Keen Falchion instead of spending the feat on Improved Critical.

I would also rather have the artificer than the archivist. Here's the trick: Have them be a Warforged. Then they don't have to sleep. They spend all night crafting instead and bam, no need for downtime. Honestly, though, even without crafting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427628-Disregard-Money-Acquire-Buff-Spells-Artificers-without-the-Artifice), infusions are super strong. And it's not like archivists don't need downtime—how else are they supposed to copy all those spells?

[Sleven]

A "buff heavy" incantatrix... I know where this is going.

As far as build suggestions go, if you're new to 3.5 (you seem to have a decent grasp of it so far) I would suggest staying away from the bookkeeping nightmares that are archivists and artificers. If you want to stick with your paladin and/or go crusader you could always use the retraining and/or rebuilding rules presented in PHBII to get exactly what you want out of the build in light of the forum's suggestions and your preferences.

There's actually a few interesting crusader and paladin combinations that involve bardic music (like smite to song and/or paladin of milli[sp?]) and a number of them don't even involve taking bard levels.

[Mildly Inept]

Okay, so I'm thinking Paladin 5/Crusader 1/Fist of Raziel 10/Some other Smitey Class 4, take Inattentive to get Servant of the Heavens, and another flaw to get an actually useful Feat, take Leadership at 6, use the Archivist for buffs and item creation, Incantrix lengthens the buffs, get Boots of Speed, Keen Falchion, and a magic item that has permanent Lion's Charge for the Pounce, along with some item that can grant Fly to deal with hostile Wizards. End result should be 19 levels of smite enhanced by FoR, Full BAB, 5 attacks, 4 on the charge that crit on a 15-20 and autoconfirm when smiting, with the opening charge buffed by Charging Smite and Rhino's Rush for extra damage, immunity to fear, disease, and mind control, permanent Holy Weapon and Protection from Evil, a bit of ToB maneuvers for fun, and a little man that follows me around to buff and make things for the party, presumably with a few Potions of Invisibility so he won't immediately die when the bad guys flank us.

I think that's about the best I can squeeze out of the character concept but I'm open to further suggestions. Not as good as 20 levels of Wizard, Cleric, or Druid, but it should be a fun character that's strong, capable, and good in a fight while pulling her weight outside the party by acting as the face and having her Cohort make good stuff for everybody.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I know Smite sounds cool, but once you do the math, it's clear that it doesn't add up to much. A 5th-level paladin gets two smites a day, for 5-10 damage net extra damage each, depending on your Charisma bonus, base damage, and enemy AC*. If you're a beatstick making ten attacks a day (two five-round fights), Weapon Specialization works out to a bigger overall boost, and it's considered a weak feat. Fist of Raziel does make Smite more powerful, but it takes a long time to get there, and it's questionable whether it's worth investing so much in Smite instead of full attacks, spellcasting, Inspire Courage, or maneuvers, also considering that Smite requires an evil target to do anything at all.

There are a number of things I'd look at:

(1) Cleric into Ordained ChampionComplete Divine, Prestige PaladinUnearthed Arcana, and/or Ruby Knight VindicatorTome of Battle. Possibly Knight of the RavenExpedition to Castle Ravenloft, if you need Turn Undead and don't start as a cleric. Probably not viable with paladin 5 locked in, but worth a look anyway.
(2) CrusaderToB. The more beatstick levels you have, the more attractive this dip becomes.
(3) From Smite to SongChampions of Valour, Song of the White RavenToB, Song of the HeartEberron Campaign Setting, Words of CreationBook of Exalted Deeds, Harmonious Knight substitution levelsCoV web enhancement, natural horn as instrumentSong and Silence (3.0), vest of legendsMagic Item Compendium. Staple a bard onto your paladin.
(4) Mystic Fire Knight substitution levelsCoV, Sword of the Arcane OrderCoV, Practiced SpellcasterComplete Arcane, Battle BlessingComplete Champion. Staple (half) a wizard onto your paladin.

Even if you're not going to use most of this, it's nice to know what's out there.



*For example, with 22 Strength and 18 Charisma, facing something you have a 60% chance to hit, a Smite turns a .6*(2d6+9) attack into a .8*(2d6+14) attack, which is an increase from 9.6 average damage to 16.8 average damage, net gain +7.2.

[Troacctid]

Okay, so I'm thinking Paladin 5/Crusader 1/Fist of Raziel 10/Some other Smitey Class 4, take Inattentive to get Servant of the Heavens, and another flaw to get an actually useful Feat, take Leadership at 6, use the Archivist for buffs and item creation, Incantrix lengthens the buffs, get Boots of Speed, Keen Falchion, and a magic item that has permanent Lion's Charge for the Pounce, along with some item that can grant Fly to deal with hostile Wizards. End result should be 19 levels of smite enhanced by FoR, Full BAB, 5 attacks, 4 on the charge that crit on a 15-20 and autoconfirm when smiting, with the opening charge buffed by Charging Smite and Rhino's Rush for extra damage, immunity to fear, disease, and mind control, permanent Holy Weapon and Protection from Evil, a bit of ToB maneuvers for fun, and a little man that follows me around to buff and make things for the party, presumably with a few Potions of Invisibility so he won't immediately die when the bad guys flank us.

I think that's about the best I can squeeze out of the character concept but I'm open to further suggestions. Not as good as 20 levels of Wizard, Cleric, or Druid, but it should be a fun character that's strong, capable, and good in a fight while pulling her weight outside the party by acting as the face and having her Cohort make good stuff for everybody.
1. Artificer would still be better for buffs and item creation. Or honestly even (cloistered) cleric so you have some spontaneous casting, domains, more skill points, and don't need to waste time scribing everything.
2. Instead of Boots of Speed, I'd just have your cohort cast Haste. That way it affects everyone. Clerics can get it from the Time domain; use the Spontaneous Domain Casting variant from Player's Handbook II.
3. Best item for granting Fly would IMO be Winged Mask. It lets you cast Fly at will. It's not self-only, though, which means your whole party can enjoy it. 13,000 gp.
4. I still definitely recommend Awesome Smite and Battle Blessing. Awesome Smite lets you ignore miss chances, trip people, or do extra damage with your smites, which is great. Battle Blessing automatically quickens all your Paladin spells for free which is amazing. Admittedly, Rhino's Rush is already a swift action, but quickening something like Resurgence or Bless can be huge, and it only gets better as you level up.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you're really in for the smite, the number you get from class alone is insufficient. Be aware of the extra smiting feat (2 extra), the sapphire smite feat (up to 4 extra [5 with an additional feat] with bonus damage, some investment required), and the mighty smiting enhancement for your weapon (1 extra). Also be aware of the devastating smite spell; double the bonus damage from your smite for a swift action, first level spell.

[Mildly Inept]

Okay, so assuming no respecs, here's what we have to work with now: (I know I put it up earlier, but I figured you might not want to scroll up and down while typing out a response, plus I forgot the Wand and haven't decided to add Sudden Stunning or not yet.)

Wood Elf Paladin, 5
22 STR 15 DEX 16 CON 10 INT 13 WIS 18 CHA
Items: +1 Greatsword, Cloak of Charisma +2, Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2, Shortbow w/ 20 arrows, Holy Symbol, +1 Banded Armor, Rations, Rope, Waterskin, Lamp, Oil, Wand of Cure Moderate Wounds, 2737.9 GP
Alternate Class Feature: Charging Smite
Skills: Diplomacy +12, Knowledge (Religion) +8, Listen +3, Search +2, Spot +3
Feats: Power Attack, Divine Might

Additionally, I can take up to two flaws for the feats. I am thinking Inattentive and either Pride of Arms (-4 to all non-martial weapons and touch attacks) or Implacable (-2 to basically everything if you ever run away from melee combat.) If going for pure beat-stickiness, I suppose I could use these to pick up Weapon Focus and True Believer and go Pious Templar. Would be less Smite-dependent and pick up some extra feats. Would have to convince the GM to accept a Weapon Focus in something other than my deity, but I figure since I'm already heterodox for being a Lawful Good follower of a Chaotic Good god, (I wasn't aware of the Paladin of Freedom when I made the character,) might as well take a greatsword instead of a longsword while we're at it. Maybe Paladin 5/Pious Templar 4/Fist of Raziel 10/Crusader 1? Maybe Paladin 5/Crusader 1/FoR1/Crusader 13? Or I could just skip PrCs and go straight to Paladin 5/Crusader 15. FWIW, I like FoR for the Circle Against Evil as much as the smites. Protection against mind control and a +2 to AC and all that other good stuff. But with an Incantrix and a Cohort, I can probably get a bunch of that stuff anyway 24 hours at a time, so perhaps it's not worth it.

IDK. I feel like a cohort, whether it be Archivist or Artificer, lessens the need for dipping into caster stuff, allowing me to focus on being the biggest, baddest BBEG destroyer around, but I'm also kinda afraid that at higher levels instead of playing a mighty elven warrior of legend and her faithful retainer, I'll be playing as a powerful magician and his unusually strong animal companion who thinks she's a real PC, lol. In retrospect, I should have just gone straight for Crusader 20, but I thought the immunity to fear and disease and the magic and saves and whatnot fit into my character concept of a heroic elven paragon, and vaguely recalled reading somewhere that the Tome of Battle was somehow cheap or broken. (It really doesn't appear to be after browsing through it.)

TBH, I kinda wish we were playing 5th because then I could just say Paladin, Oath of Vengeance 20. Done. Wouldn't get that sweet Wood Elf strength bonus though...

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you're dropping the smiting theme and FoR with it, I've -got- to circle back around to Ruby Knight Vindicator. Ask for a refluff on the deity requirement (it has nothing to do with the class' mechanics anyway) and go straight in after a crusader dip. You keep your paladin casting and layer a maneuver progression on top of it with an extra discipline compared to a normal crusader.

You meet the prerequisites virtually without trying and can put off deciding what to do with those last 4 levels until it gets a little closer.

[Mildly Inept]

I mean, I like the smiting theme, but I don't want to be bad at my job. A dead character doesn't get to do any smiting, after all. The original concept was a damage-dealing BBEG destroyer hero type. I think part of my problem is that I came in with expectations shaped by our 5e campaign DM'd by another guy. He mainly runs dungeon crawls, we rarely fight outside, (hence, mounts and Fly aren't that effective,) and we never really get to use our skill checks or spells to skip combats or otherwise derail the campaign, so the only Wizard spell I get much mileage out of is Fireball. The characters are reasonably balanced with none terribly more efficient than the other because 5th Edition, and the encounters are fairly structured, so you can reasonably expect to save up your good stuff for the BBEG at the end of the dungeon, which makes resource management easier, but also makes things a bit more predictable.

Our 3.5 campaign is... very much not like that, for better and for worse.

The thing that spooks me about RKV is the d8 hit dice. As a two-handed warrior, my AC is pretty low, and I've already had a narrow scrape. (The poor Rogue/Wizard got insta-killed by a giant cat on literally the first round of combat of the entire campaign. We all kinda stared in silence for a moment before agreeing to pretend the dice said she got KO'd with 1 HP left before death instead.) Plus, I kinda like White Raven more than Devoted Spirit, which seems to be built more around sword & board tanky types than two-handed damage dealers.

But having actual skills and stuff sure sounds nice.

I'm sorry if I sound indecisive, but I've crammed like ten sourcebooks worth of stuff into my head in like a week, and still haven't got half of 3.5 figured out, so my brain is a bit mushy at the moment.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The thing that spooks me about RKV is the d8 hit dice. As a two-handed warrior, my AC is pretty low, and I've already had a narrow scrape. (The poor Rogue/Wizard got insta-killed by a giant cat on literally the first round of combat of the entire campaign. We all kinda stared in silence for a moment before agreeing to pretend the dice said she got KO'd with 1 HP left before death instead.) Plus, I kinda like White Raven more than Devoted Spirit, which seems to be built more around sword & board tanky types than two-handed damage dealers.

But having actual skills and stuff sure sounds nice.

I'm sorry if I sound indecisive, but I've crammed like ten sourcebooks worth of stuff into my head in like a week, and still haven't got half of 3.5 figured out, so my brain is a bit mushy at the moment.
3.5 is a big game, it'd be weird if you weren't indecisive.

RKV has a d8 hit die, but it also has maneuvers like Revitalizing Strike (melee attack heals for 3d6 + IL), Covering Strike (every opponent you hit this turn can't make AoOs for three rounds), and Radiant Charge (+6d6 damage vs. evil target, gain DR 10/--). So your survivability is pretty solid.

Edit: Those maneuvers are 3rd-, 4th-, and 5th-level respectively, so a paladin 5/crusader 1/RKV 10 could count on picking them up at ECL 8, 10, and 12.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I mean, I like the smiting theme, but I don't want to be bad at my job. A dead character doesn't get to do any smiting, after all. The original concept was a damage-dealing BBEG destroyer hero type. I think part of my problem is that I came in with expectations shaped by our 5e campaign DM'd by another guy. He mainly runs dungeon crawls, we rarely fight outside, (hence, mounts and Fly aren't that effective,) and we never really get to use our skill checks or spells to skip combats or otherwise derail the campaign, so the only Wizard spell I get much mileage out of is Fireball. The characters are reasonably balanced with none terribly more efficient than the other because 5th Edition, and the encounters are fairly structured, so you can reasonably expect to save up your good stuff for the BBEG at the end of the dungeon, which makes resource management easier, but also makes things a bit more predictable.

Our 3.5 campaign is... very much not like that, for better and for worse.

The thing that spooks me about RKV is the d8 hit dice. As a two-handed warrior, my AC is pretty low, and I've already had a narrow scrape. (The poor Rogue/Wizard got insta-killed by a giant cat on literally the first round of combat of the entire campaign. We all kinda stared in silence for a moment before agreeing to pretend the dice said she got KO'd with 1 HP left before death instead.) Plus, I kinda like White Raven more than Devoted Spirit, which seems to be built more around sword & board tanky types than two-handed damage dealers.

But having actual skills and stuff sure sounds nice.

I'm sorry if I sound indecisive, but I've crammed like ten sourcebooks worth of stuff into my head in like a week, and still haven't got half of 3.5 figured out, so my brain is a bit mushy at the moment.

There's nothing wrong with a smite focused build, particularly one built on smite evil. While not everyone you fight will be evil, enough of them should be for it to work out fine (1:3 humans and more of most of the savage races) and you can take the strength of conviction feat from exemplars of evil for emergencies (targeting restriction gets lifted once per day on smite good/evil).

As for the d8 consider this;

The average of 16d10 +32 is 125 for a fairly conservative paladin/fist of raziel PC.

The average of 6d10 +10d8 +32 is 115 for the pal 5/cru 1/rkv 10 built to the same specs.

You lose about 8% of your HP or less by taking the one build over the other and that will get even smaller with more levels and/or con.

You're right to ditch the mount if you're not taking levels that advance it and charging smite is a good trade.

Edit:

One more thing: if you do stick with FoR and you're only grabbing a level or two in a martial adept class, seriously consider warblade or even swordsage. Crusader is the go-to because it fills the prerequisites for RKV but there are a -lot- of good maneuvers on the lists for the other two. Make your decision on the maneuvers you want rather than any of the class' other details.

[Mildly Inept]

Okay, I'm gonna try looking at this a different way. Instead of just looking at the ten bazillionty options there are out there, let's look at what makes some options good in D&D and others not as good. D&D is fundamentally a game about positioning and action economy, right? It's why you want your martials to have Haste and Pounce, and it's why Wizards are king in 3.5. Now, the most common way to get these things is to be a Wizard or other full caster. The thing is, I don't want to be a Wizard because I already play a level 11 Wizard in 5e and we already have a Wizard in our party. I want to be a big, strong, fightey type with full BAB and lots of HP with good saves and immunity to fear and disease. I want a big metal stick, and I want to smite things with it until they die, occasionally taking the time off to heal and buff my allies.

This will be a valuable position in the party until Level 8, when the martial-caster disparity goes into overdrive.

To quote from our Facebook chat:

Wizard: 8th lvl is nasty. All day flight, shield, alter self.. sexy sexy
Me: I can uh... hit things twice? But I can also have a little man follow me around and cast things good.

And that's okay, really. I mean, the wizard is a different class representing a completely different fantasy archetype. It's perfectly logical that he can do stuff I can't. But I also don't want to be the BMX Bandit to his Angel Summoner. I want to meaningfully contribute to the party in a way that the Wizard couldn't do simply by casting Summon Monster. In hindsight, the obvious way to do this would have been to simply go for straight Crusader with White Raven in order to get more skill points and White Raven Tactics right off the bat and then nab a divine martial PrC, but I hadn't given the Tome of Battle a read when I whipped up my character. So here we are.

The original plan was to smite things real good, with the theory being that Charging Smite and Rhino's Rush would compensate for the relative lack of damage. And in fairness, it did rather quickly and decisively end a combat last game. But the problem is that smites are limited, situational, do not scale well with leveling, and do not provide tactical flexibility, while the lack of skill points handicaps me outside of combat. So the question is if we can preserve the core concept of the build, a gallant holy knight that does absurd amounts of damage and has a few utility spells on the side while getting to do stuff that's cool and useful at higher levels. Fist of Raziel is closer to my character concept of an unstoppable pure hero dedicated to purging evil, but RBV has more of the options I want. This is further complicated by the fact that the RBV's best stuff relies on burning Turn Undead slots, which is where I also get my Divine Might. So the question is how we preserve the core of the character's build and flavor while expanding tactical options and usefulness out of combat.

Apologies for the wall of text, BTW.

[ATHATH]

There are plenty of dnd tools on the web to help you filter through spells.
I see what you did there.

[Kelb_Panthera]

This will be a valuable position in the party until Level 8, when the martial-caster disparity goes into overdrive.

To quote from our Facebook chat:

Wizard: 8th lvl is nasty. All day flight, shield, alter self.. sexy sexy
Me: I can uh... hit things twice? But I can also have a little man follow me around and cast things good.

And that's okay, really. I mean, the wizard is a different class representing a completely different fantasy archetype. It's perfectly logical that he can do stuff I can't. But I also don't want to be the BMX Bandit to his Angel Summoner. I want to meaningfully contribute to the party in a way that the Wizard couldn't do simply by casting Summon Monster. In hindsight, the obvious way to do this would have been to simply go for straight Crusader with White Raven in order to get more skill points and White Raven Tactics right off the bat and then nab a divine martial PrC, but I hadn't given the Tome of Battle a read when I whipped up my character. So here we are.

Here's your first mistake; granted, it's so common as to be (erroneously) considered a truism. As long as there are enemies to be killed by force of arms, a real warrior is -always- a solid investment for a party. One that has -some- out of combat utility, even if the dedicated casters do it much better, can take some of that burden off of the casters and allow them to fill their niche better.

Now a paladin in particular needs very little from other casters if he's built properly. Flight and pounce can both be garnered from the mount, boosting spells allow damage to easily keep pace with expectations while utility spells thoroughly enable survival in unusual circumstances and being the party face amongst other abilities.

It is a -very- capable class even before WBL or multiclassing is taken into consideration. Quite possibly the most capable of the good BAB classes.


The original plan was to smite things real good, with the theory being that Charging Smite and Rhino's Rush would compensate for the relative lack of damage. And in fairness, it did rather quickly and decisively end a combat last game. But the problem is that smites are limited, situational, do not scale well with leveling, and do not provide tactical flexibility, while the lack of skill points handicaps me outside of combat. So the question is if we can preserve the core concept of the build, a gallant holy knight that does absurd amounts of damage and has a few utility spells on the side while getting to do stuff that's cool and useful at higher levels. Fist of Raziel is closer to my character concept of an unstoppable pure hero dedicated to purging evil, but RBV has more of the options I want. This is further complicated by the fact that the RBV's best stuff relies on burning Turn Undead slots, which is where I also get my Divine Might. So the question is how we preserve the core of the character's build and flavor while expanding tactical options and usefulness out of combat.

Apologies for the wall of text, BTW.

Smiting, if it is your focus, yields tremendous damage when compared to anything except charging specialists. Getting several times your level in bonus damage on a smite is easily doable as is getting more than enough smites per day that only a Marathon adventuring day will exhaust them. The catch is, as with any kind of specialization, that other of your abilities necessarily do -not- reach their maximum potential.

If you want to rain thundering righteous fury on evil foes, you can do that with frightening effectiveness. You're just going to have a bit of a rough time with other things like mobility and dealing with less villainous foes.

Only you can decide what you want the character to be. We're happy to help you make the most of it once you've got it figured out, as I'm sure is apparent by now.


I see what you did there.

I'm sure I have no idea what you're talking about. :smallwink:

[Eldan]

Thing is, if you want to be versatile in 3.5, you really need supernatural powers of some kind. They can be psionics, maneuvers, spells, binding, anything. And no, Paladin casting probably doesn't count, sadly, it's very limited.

So, if I were you, I'd be looking around at things you can refluff as divine blessings. Psychic warriors get a lot of buffs and melee, but you don't really have the wisdom for it. With your charisma and constitution, Binder (and maybe something like Knight of the Seal) might be a choice, too. Talk to your DM to refluffing binding spirits as praying for divine guidance. You could also consider Favoured Soul and gain some cleric casting. You have the charisma for it. Or even Sorcerer or Warlock. There's prestige classes for a lot of those combinations.

Now, you don't want to step on the Wizard's toes, and that's fine. Really. Thing is, there are so many different kinds of powers out there, and each of those have so many spells, you're probably not stepping on toes.

What I'd also look into more, just as a general out of combat thing, is skills. You have diplomacy, that gives you something to do out of combat. There's a feat called Nymph's Kiss, which you should qualify for, which gives another skill point per level. Get some out of combat skills, like knowledge and social skills. It's not much, but every little helps.

Also, perhaps just ask your DM for a weird magic item or two. Those can actually be a lot of fun. And an unusual mount, while you're at it.$

Finally, you could also just do something completely out there. Devoted Tracker is a feat in complete adventurer for Ranger/Paladins, which allows you to count your ranger feats for smiting and stacks your two special animals into one. Ranger spells are also pretty cool in general.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Thing is, if you want to be versatile in 3.5, you really need supernatural powers of some kind. They can be psionics, maneuvers, spells, binding, anything. And no, Paladin casting probably doesn't count, sadly, it's very limited.

I'll leave this one at "you -really- need to look over the paladin list again." It's far less limited than you think.


So, if I were you, I'd be looking around at things you can refluff as divine blessings. Psychic warriors get a lot of buffs and melee, but you don't really have the wisdom for it. With your charisma and constitution, Binder (and maybe something like Knight of the Seal) might be a choice, too. Talk to your DM to refluffing binding spirits as praying for divine guidance. You could also consider Favoured Soul and gain some cleric casting. You have the charisma for it. Or even Sorcerer or Warlock. There's prestige classes for a lot of those combinations.

Refluffing necessarily requires a rejiggering of your suspension of disbelief if you have essentially any preconception of what a divinely empowered character is and how that interacts with the mechanics of the things you're picking up. Binder in particular clashes horribly, IMO.

Sorcerer kind spits in the wizard's face unless you select your spells together to deliberately avoid -most- overlap. Warlock is a strict step down from continuing in paladin; fight me.

Now favoured soul works nicely if you jump right into something like Fist of Raziel that continues the paladin feel with FS casting but that leaves you having essentially thrown away the paladin's unique spells and the caster level on the ones he does get outside of wand use (which is undeniably and rather severely limiting). At that point though, it's pretty hard to avoid your non-casting features being relegated to the back burner in fairly short order.



What I'd also look into more, just as a general out of combat thing, is skills. You have diplomacy, that gives you something to do out of combat. There's a feat called Nymph's Kiss, which you should qualify for, which gives another skill point per level. Get some out of combat skills, like knowledge and social skills. It's not much, but every little helps.

That ship has sailed. OP isn't going to be able to catch up to where he needs to be in the skill game without throwing the rest of his character (or cohort) into it.


Also, perhaps just ask your DM for a weird magic item or two. Those can actually be a lot of fun. And an unusual mount, while you're at it.

Hells yeah. Here's the best piece of advice in this post. If there's something you need or want to be able to do outside of your class abilities; dumpster dive through the books looking for an item that does it, starting with MIC of course, get to the nearest sufficiently large settlement, and put your cash down.


Finally, you could also just do something completely out there. Devoted Tracker is a feat in complete adventurer for Ranger/Paladins, which allows you to count your ranger feats for smiting and stacks your two special animals into one. Ranger spells are also pretty cool in general.

Wow no. This is the worst advice in this post. The paladin list is flatly superior to the ranger list (not to say there aren't a few gems there) and splitting the two is just -begging- to suck at both unless you jump through the hoops to enter the prestige version of one or the other.

[Eldan]

I'm not saying the Ranger list is better than the Paladin list. Just saying that if Paladin is getting stale, perhaps mixing in another class might help.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not saying the Ranger list is better than the Paladin list. Just saying that if Paladin is getting stale, perhaps mixing in another class might help.

Like I said, it works pretty okay if you go into it with the prestige version of one or the other.

Paladin 7/ divine crusader (animal domain) 1/prestige ranger 2/X 10 where X is something that advances casting at most if not all levels.

You get to tack all the unique ranger spells onto the paladin list for some really vicious combos in a fight. Can you say "ranged smite with hunter's mercy?"

[Mildly Inept]

I think Kelb is right that I'm overthinking this a bit. I wanted to build a big, strong smitey type, as of Level 5 it is quite good at being big, strong and smitey, and it makes the most sense to make the biggest, smiteyist build possible rather than going insane trying to make the character into something it isn't. I think a cohort is gonna let me do more stuff, so I might as well go Paladin 6/FoR X to get the most out of smiting and spell advancement. Plus, having to manage an artificer or archivist cohort while keeping track of a bunch of complicated options on my paladin might eat up a bit too much time at the table since there are other people who might want to get on with playing the game. Say we take a couple flaws to get Servant of the Heavens and Weapon Focus: Greatsword, take Leadership at level 6, prestige into FoR at 7, and spend the rest of the feats getting more and better smites. Is that workable?

[Eldan]

It absolutely is workable. You'll be good at smiting things. It will not, however, solve your problem of being unable to really do much except smite things.

[Mildly Inept]

Yeah, that's what the Cohort is for. Of course, that leads to the problem of having to design another character. But, let us say we wanted to make a big, scary evil-destroying beatstick/party face that also has a cohort which is useful and provides out of combat utility while primarily relegated to a support role as not to eclipse the actual player character or the party wizard. It seems to me that we'll want Extra Smiting, Awesome Smite, Extra Turning for more Divine Might usage, Leap Attack if we can get our jump high enough to work around the whole heavy armor penalty thing for improved power attacks on the charge, and to somehow get Haste, Pounce, and at higher levels, Fly. Weapon Focus would be nice, but I'm not sure we have room to wiggle it in there. Obviously we want to figure out a way to get Haste and Pounce as well.

I'm leaning towards an Archivist instead of an Artificer for a cohort, both because I think it's a more flavorful companion for a Paladin, and because the paranoid in me says Artificer's traveling craft wagon is prime bait for marauders. Plus, the Archivist's buffs will compliment the Wizard nicely when he PrCs into Incantrix and the Dark Knowledge thing has utility inside and outside of combat. The Artificer's free "craft anything" feats sure are nice though...

[Troacctid]

If your Artificer is LN, they can use an Enveloping Pit (MIC) to carry everything around. Five times the storage capacity of a Portable Hole, less than 20% of the cost. Also, don't forget that the Artificer's infusions can allow the Incantatrix to apply metamagic feats to wands and scrolls.

Either way, I still think Cloistered Cleric > Archivist. More spells known, more flexibility, more skill points, less MAD, better support class overall.

[Mildly Inept]

I'll have to take another look at the metamagic rules, which I admit I only browsed and do not fully understand. I don't think I can take a LN cohort as a LG Paladin because class restrictions were written by the Fun Police. I think Academic Priest feat overcomes MAD and lets me focus on intelligence, which should net me a decent amount of skill points. That said, you make a compelling case for Cloistered Cleric, especially since I had forgotten about all the bonus skills he gets at first level. I'll have to talk with the Wizard about the Artificer stuff, see what he thinks of it. If he thinks it's neat, I'll go with it, since I want to be helpful. I'm low-key afraid he'll use the artificer to build a thermonuclear bomb or something, seeing how his character is ethically challenged, but I suppose a little suspense never hurt anyone.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Cloistered cleric vs archivist is -really- close to call. The cleric's turning ability is a powerful resource and the lore feature doesn't suck. On the other hand, the archivist gets actually useful class features across most of his levels.

Then there's the spells.

Cloistered Cleric draws from the cleric list and three domains. The archivist can learn spells from -any- divine spell list. That's the killer for me. Whatever else he's doing, a primary caster's primary function is to cast spells. Metamagic is cool and crafting is great but, end of the day, the spells are what matter and the archivist does it better, IMO.

Artificer can do -anything- that can be done within the system but there's a catch. He can't do everything and he can't change what he's doing quickly. Infusions are pretty great but they don't cover nearly as much as a even the bard list and crafting time to change gear is measured in days; no less than 1 per item. Then there's the sheer complexity of it: picking the right devices to complement the party, managing device charges and infusions, selling loot vs breaking it down for XP, actually managing the constant changing of xp in your craft reserve. It's a lot to wrap your head around if you're not going to just be a sorcerer with wands instead of slots. It's worth it to my mind but I have a thing for complexity for its own sake so take that with a grain of salt.

I still think a crafting archivist is the way to go.

[Troacctid]

Cloistered cleric vs archivist is -really- close to call. The cleric's turning ability is a powerful resource and the lore feature doesn't suck. On the other hand, the archivist gets actually useful class features across most of his levels.

Then there's the spells.

Cloistered Cleric draws from the cleric list and three domains. The archivist can learn spells from -any- divine spell list. That's the killer for me. Whatever else he's doing, a primary caster's primary function is to cast spells. Metamagic is cool and crafting is great but, end of the day, the spells are what matter and the archivist does it better, IMO.
The Archivist has to spend time and money acquiring and scribing every spell she wants access to. Cloistered Cleric not only knows them all for free, she can also spontaneously cast every Sanctified spell. In practice, that means the Cleric will actually know and have access to significantly more spells than the Archivist most of the time. Even if you binge a ton of spellbooks, you'll have to repeat the process again every two levels. And being able to learn off-list spells is less valuable anyway when your party already has a Wizard.

It's also pretty easy to get extra class features for a Cleric via prestige classes. I'm personally a fan of Church Inquisitor and/or Paragnostic Apostle.


Artificer can do -anything- that can be done within the system but there's a catch. He can't do everything and he can't change what he's doing quickly. Infusions are pretty great but they don't cover nearly as much as a even the bard list and crafting time to change gear is measured in days; no less than 1 per item. Then there's the sheer complexity of it: picking the right devices to complement the party, managing device charges and infusions, selling loot vs breaking it down for XP, actually managing the constant changing of xp in your craft reserve. It's a lot to wrap your head around if you're not going to just be a sorcerer with wands instead of slots. It's worth it to my mind but I have a thing for complexity for its own sake so take that with a grain of salt.
In my experience, people underestimate infusions. Spell-Storing Item in particular is a huge source of power and versatility for the Artificer. Don't have an item of the spell the party needs? Hang on, give me one minute, and...poof! Here it is. You want to be able to pull spells off of any list how about any spell up to 4th level from any spell list in the game, arcane or divine? Of course it has an xp cost, but it's very small, and it can be dispensed with once you're high enough level for Concurrent Infusions.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The Archivist has to spend time and money acquiring and scribing every spell she wants access to.

Not so. He only needs to pay time and money for spells from lists other than the cleric list and any extras over and above the 2 per level freebies. And it's well worth the cost.


Cloistered Cleric not only knows them all for free, she can also spontaneously cast every Sanctified spell. In practice, that means the Cleric will actually know and have access to significantly more spells than the Archivist most of the time.

So you say. That's not at all clear and simply having more total isn't necessarily important.

You need at least 5 must-haves on the cleric list at any given spell level before it costs the archivist a shiny copper piece. Then there's the must-haves on the druid list, getting spells of the paladin and ranger lists earlier than off of the cleric and druid lists, anything off of any domain list rather than just the two you had to pick at chgar-gen, and spells unique to the shaman and shugenja lists become available. There are some real gems scattered in there.

Bonus points beyond reckoning; archivist uses the same prep' mechanic the wizard does. He can leave slots open and prepare as needed from his book midday. The cleric can't do this. This is -huge- if you take good advantage of it.

Fewer great spells > more mediocre spells.


Even if you binge a ton of spellbooks, you'll have to repeat the process again every two levels. And being able to learn off-list spells is less valuable anyway when your party already has a Wizard.

It's no different from the wizard having to do the same except the archivist has a much broader array to choose from. That latter sentence is just nonsense. The wizard list doesn't cover everything possible and even if it did, the wizard also only has so much gold to spend on his spell books.


It's also pretty easy to get extra class features for a Cleric via prestige classes. I'm personally a fan of Church Inquisitor and/or Paragnostic Apostle.

The archivist qualifies for most of the same classes at the same time and this is an acknowledgement that the cleric has to play catch-up here. As long as you can get what you want without having to pay prerequisite taxes, cool. Otherwise this is still a clear advantage for the archivist.


In my experience, people underestimate infusions. Spell-Storing Item in particular is a huge source of power and versatility for the Artificer. Don't have an item of the spell the party needs? Hang on, give me one minute, and...poof! Here it is. You want to be able to pull spells off of any list how about any spell up to 4th level from any spell list in the game, arcane or divine? Of course it has an xp cost, but it's very small, and it can be dispensed with once you're high enough level for Concurrent Infusions.

Like I said, infusions are great. Spell storing item in particular is awesome... until level 9. Then the full casters' spell levels continue to progress while anything higher than 4th level the artificer wants is going to have to come out of his cash. To add insult to that injury, it's 20xp per spell until the level before it gets left behind. You're right that infusions don't often get the recognition they deserve but you also want to avoid swinging too far the other way. The artificer list, even accounting for spell storing item, is pretty middle of the road. It's just about even with the bard list; ahead of paladin and ranger (since it completely overlaps them both), ahead of duskblade and maybe warmage, but definitely behind most of the full casters.

[Mildly Inept]

Would it be fair to say that the Archivist is more reliant upon the DM granting access to scrolls and whatnot? If so, would Cloistered Cleric not be a better short-term choice seeing how we are located in what our DM has described as "Fantasy West Virginia" and are thus unlikely to stumble across vast troves of magical knowledge?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Would it be fair to say that the Archivist is more reliant upon the DM granting access to scrolls and whatnot? If so, would Cloistered Cleric not be a better short-term choice seeing how we are located in what our DM has described as "Fantasy West Virginia" and are thus unlikely to stumble across vast troves of magical knowledge?

Somewhat. You don't actually need scrolls though, just a caster willing to give you a day of his time so that you can scribe one yourself. That said, 30% of scrolls generated in random treasure would be divine ones and even in fantasy West Virginia there should be a few acolytes scattered about in any given settlement; adepts if not clerics.

Even so, thinking in the short-term, unless it's fairly pressing, isn't a great strategy. If you expect to almost never be in civilization proper, then your buddy's wizard and the hypothetical artificer are very thoroughly screwed, the party's beat-sticks (including you) have a problem, and you probably should go with the cleric. Otherwise, stick it out unless you're willing to take the hit to your leadership score for dismissing a cohort.

[Troacctid]

I don't think the Artificer is screwed. Artificers don't really need access to civilization. Clerics are certainly not screwed, of course.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't think the Artificer is screwed. Artificers don't really need access to civilization. Clerics are certainly not screwed, of course.

And where do you expect the artificer to get the nondescript magical supplies needed to craft anything in a podunk with no casters? Much less in the complete absence of civilisation?

[Troacctid]

Treasure hoards, I imagine.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Treasure hoards, I imagine.

So entirely at the GM's discretion... just like the scrolls for the archivist and wizard... yeah...

[Troacctid]

Well, you don't need any specific supplies. Just cash.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, you don't need any specific supplies. Just cash.

You need Xgp in nondescript magical reagents and other ingredients, not just actual cash. Druids and psions don't need civilisation, pretty much everybody else does, at least a little. Artificers need a supply chain to get the reagents they need just like a wizard does to have access to spells and research materials. They still have their infusions, and that's nothing to sneeze at, but they are seriously nerfed to hell and back if they're cut off from decent markets just like most other classes and more so than most casters.

[Mildly Inept]

I mean, it's not a complete podunk, it's more of a decently prosperous dwarven logging and agricultural community with an elven minority. We have a few high-level casters, but they're mainly dwarf clerics. (They have a temple. The elves have a dinky little shrine in the hills I've sworn to protect.) We've got a blacksmith and a shop and all that, but we have to check with the DM before purchasing "anything exceptional." Make of that what you will.

Anyway, if I take two flaws, I'll need one to qualify for Servant of the Heavens, (garbage feat, but oh well,) and one extra one to do whatever with. Think I ought to go with Extra Smite for two more bursts of damage a day, or perhaps Weapon Focus for more consistent damage?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless you have something you need more, extra smiting is always a good feat for a paladin.