Swift quiver underwhelming magical secret?

[Taebyn]

So I’ve been working on an archer that is valor bard based. I was planning on stealing swift quiver so that I could fire off four shots a round. Then it hit me as I was planning spell progression, is swift quiver worth the magical secrets slot? We can get the same or better damage for our bonus action out of baseline animate objects (bag of ball bearings) and I could steal something else. /cough greater steed /cough wall of force. Ultimately im a support player but wanted the archer feel. So in concept vs crunch I feel it could be argued either way. Taking swift quiver adds to the core of which the character is based. Not taking swift quiver gives opportunity for really diversifying the character. Or do I just gamble that I end up finding a magic bow and bracers or archery? Also, my spell selection is pretty much control and group necessities (dispel etc) if you were wondering.

[CTurbo]

Swift Quiver is an excellent magical secret spell for a Swords or Valor Bard. Probably the best.

I like Elemental Weapon too although it requires higher slots to really shine.

[leogobsin]

I would say it's worth it. It fits your character concept, it may not be the most damage possible but it's still solid, and it's a whoooole lot less fiddly to deal with than Animate Objects. Having ten creatures that you've got to roll attacks for and track the HP of is a lot of work (and it only gets worse if you're using any kind of battle map). It may be a more numerically advantageous choice, but it could easily end up being actually less fun to use.

[Tanarii]

One thing to take into account is animated objects must all attack the same target, since they all get issued the same command. So overkill is a thing.

More importantly the range is a lot less than a bow, unless you've placed the ballbearings far away as part of a trap.

[MaxWilson]

So I’ve been working on an archer that is valor bard based. I was planning on stealing swift quiver so that I could fire off four shots a round. Then it hit me as I was planning spell progression, is swift quiver worth the magical secrets slot? We can get the same or better damage for our bonus action out of baseline animate objects (bag of ball bearings) and I could steal something else. /cough greater steed /cough wall of force. Ultimately im a support player but wanted the archer feel. So in concept vs crunch I feel it could be argued either way. Taking swift quiver adds to the core of which the character is based. Not taking swift quiver gives opportunity for really diversifying the character. Or do I just gamble that I end up finding a magic bow and bracers or archery? Also, my spell selection is pretty much control and group necessities (dispel etc) if you were wondering.

Swift Quiver isn't terrible but it definitely isn't great for the cost, especially if you don't already have both Archery style and Sharpshooter.

One thing to consider is that Swift Quiver has a better action economy than Animate Objects. (Bonus action to cast instead of action, and the effect is immediate instead of waiting for the object's next turn.) However, Valor Bards already have a decent use for their bonus action (Bardic Inspiration, and later on Battle Magic) so the upside is limited.

If you're leaning towards Find Greater Steed or Wall of Force, you will probably get more bang for your buck (Magical Secret + Spell Slot + Concentration if applicable) than you would out of Swift Quiver. To a certain extent though it depends on how good the rest of your party is at dealing direct at-will damage. If your group is composed of sword-and-shield fighters and knowledge clerics chucking Sacred Flame, the extra damage from Swift Quiver will be more appreciated and more relevant than if your party includes Sharpshooter Fighters and Agonizing Repelling Blast Sorlocks. I think my rule of thumb here is that if Swift Quiver could possibly increase party DPR by at least 30%, it would be worth spending your concentration on in a tough fight; otherwise I'd stick with Hypnotic Pattern/Wall of Force instead to divide-and-conquer the enemy.

[Contrast]

One thing to take into account is animated objects must all attack the same target, since they all get issued the same command. So overkill is a thing.

More importantly the range is a lot less than a bow, unless you've placed the ballbearings far away as part of a trap.

I mean...'attack that guy' is a command but so is 'attack those guys' or even 'each one of you attack an individual one of those guys'. Depends on your DM really.

On the topic of swift quiver, I certainly don't think its the best choice but you just have to decide how important the archer motif of your character is to you.

[MaxWilson]

A final consideration for Animate Objects: your DM may or may not be cool with you declaring that you're animating ten ball bearings from your belt pouch or something simultaneously, since that leads to an illegal situation (ten Tiny creatures plus a Medium creature in the same 5' square). The spell text suggests that you're mostly intended to animate objects in the environment around you, e.g. animating all the bar stools in a tavern. Pulling out ten ball bearings from your pouch and scattering them over a wide area might or might not be something that your DM thinks is reasonable as a free object interaction.

[Malifice]

One thing to take into account is animated objects must all attack the same target, since they all get issued the same command. So overkill is a thing.

'Kill the orcs in this room'.

[Malifice]

One thing to take into account is animated objects must all attack the same target, since they all get issued the same command. So overkill is a thing.

'Kill the orcs in this room'.

[JellyPooga]

The thing about Animate Objects and ball bearings is that it fits very nicely into "cheese" territory. Some GMs aren't too happy about that kind of thing. Swift Quiver may not be "the most powerful", but it definitely fits your concept and is certainly no slouch. Worth the slot IMO.

[MrStabby]

Swift Quiver is a bit context dependant.

If you get loads of magical arrows available and there is no need for extra ranged damage in the party then it is ok,but probably not worth the pick. Likewise if your campaign has a lot of exploration or social elements, you can probably skip it.

Wall of force you mention, and is probably a much better option.

One thing to think about is that you don't need to take your picks from the top level of spells you can cast - the lower the spell level them more slots you can use each day to cast it - assuming it scales well enough to justify it. Spells like banishment are awesome in this regard.

Even if you do go for damage, something like fireball might suit you better. If you compare for big fights - how many turns worth of damage will you have to do to with swift quiver to catch up with casting 4 enemies in your fireball radius? Is it worth it for the cost of concentration? and is this enough?

[PhantomSoul]

A final consideration for Animate Objects: your DM may or may not be cool with you declaring that you're animating ten ball bearings from your belt pouch or something simultaneously, since that leads to an illegal situation (ten Tiny creatures plus a Medium creature in the same 5' square).

Heh, that's actually an entertaining thought. You cast the spell and the DM makes them all die from force damage.

Evil, of course, since they're in the same (mechanical) Space but not in the same (3D conceptualised) space, but I'd probably grin as a witness if it were recurring cheese.

[Whyrocknodie]

...how would an animated ball-bearing cause damage? Outside of some kind of niche situation where it could ping itself into an eye or something, the best they could hope for is to make footing treacherous isn't it?

Is this an assumption based on the existence of this line:
Tiny - HP: 20, AC: 18, Attack: +8 to hit, 1d4 + 4 damage, Str: 4, Dex: 18

'Tiny' being a creature with a 2.5 foot space, such as an imp. Is it a commonly held ruling that animated a trivial object like a coin still uses that same size and combat potential? Because... well. Why would you want that in your game?

[Contrast]

The DMG gives examples of tiny objects as a bottle or a lock and small as a chest or lute.

So while ball bearings may be a bit of a stretch, it isn't exactly difficult for someone to keep a pouch full of decent sized pebbles or anything similar which I think would qualify.

[Sigreid]

So, animate your arrows to keep the archer motif.

[Specter]

I can't stress enough how much you want a level in fighter for Archery. That +2 to hit with Sharpshooter is what will make Swift Quiver shine.

[Tanarii]

I mean...'attack that guy' is a command but so is 'attack those guys' or even 'each one of you attack an individual one of those guys'. Depends on your DM really.Sure if your DM allows it. If a player insisted that my ruling was a problem (which has never happened for this spell nor Animate Dead), I'd certainly take control of movement and choosing the targets, just like Conjure Animals. /shrug

[Ganymede]

Sure if your DM allows it. If a player insisted that my ruling was a problem (which has never happened for this spell nor Animate Dead), I'd certainly take control of movement and choosing the targets, just like Conjure Animals. /shrug

That's their punishment for animating ten things when they could have animated one armoire instead.

[Taebyn]

I can't stress enough how much you want a level in fighter for Archery. That +2 to hit with Sharpshooter is what will make Swift Quiver shine.

Going 2 fighter and possibly 3rd for champion or battle master. 2 revised ranger and taking close quarters shooter. So that should put much more weight on swift quiver? Or am I overinvesting instead of diversifying? Like your guides btw

[MaxWilson]

Going 2 fighter and possibly 3rd for champion or battle master. 2 revised ranger and taking close quarters shooter. So that should put much more weight on swift quiver? Or am I overinvesting instead of diversifying? Like your guides btw

Either (1) Swift Quiver + at least one level in fighter for Archery style + Sharpshooter, or (2) ignore Swift Quiver and stick with your support + archery motif, and spend your concentration on Fear/Wall of Force/whatnot.

Which one sounds more fun to you?

[AvvyR]

...how would an animated ball-bearing cause damage? Outside of some kind of niche situation where it could ping itself into an eye or something, the best they could hope for is to make footing treacherous isn't it?


Never seen X-Men 2, have you?

[MaxWilson]

Never seen X-Men 2, have you?

Thanks for the nightmare fuel.

[Ganymede]

...how would an animated ball-bearing cause damage? Outside of some kind of niche situation where it could ping itself into an eye or something, the best they could hope for is to make footing treacherous isn't it?

Is this an assumption based on the existence of this line:
Tiny - HP: 20, AC: 18, Attack: +8 to hit, 1d4 + 4 damage, Str: 4, Dex: 18

'Tiny' being a creature with a 2.5 foot space, such as an imp. Is it a commonly held ruling that animated a trivial object like a coin still uses that same size and combat potential? Because... well. Why would you want that in your game?

It is up to individual DMs to adjudicate this.

Personally, I insist that tiny objects be at least somewhat similar in size to the listed examples. For instance, the DMG lists a bottle and a lock as examples. Those are fine by me, as are weapons sized between a dagger and a short sword. I certainly wouldn't let my players animate ball bearings, pebbles, or grains of sand as tiny objects, tho.

[jaappleton]

I made this argument in the most recent Bard handbook.

Swift Quiver is a trap. It sucks. It sucks on Rangers, too. Just because its an exclusive high level Ranger spell doesn't make it any good. Like Lightning Arrow, it merely sucks the least. That doesn't make it a good spell.

Instead of gaining an additional attack, for one minute, you should get something that boosts every attack you make for an hour.

Enter Holy Weapon, typically exclusive to Clerics and Paladins. One of the very few new spells they got, and its a doozy.

Bonus Action to cast, Concentration, lasts an hour, +2d8 Radiant damage on all attacks, and you can end it early as a bonus action to do an ally-friendly 4d8 Radiant and blind on a failed save, save for half and no blind.

An hour long buff that does +2d8 radiant on all attacks. Pair it with Crossbow Expert and fire away for 1d6+2d8+Dex. 18.5 per hit with a mundane weapon, 55.5 if they all hit, without Sharpshooter.

[Matrix_Walker]

A final consideration for Animate Objects: your DM may or may not be cool with you declaring that you're animating ten ball bearings from your belt pouch or something simultaneously, since that leads to an illegal situation (ten Tiny creatures plus a Medium creature in the same 5' square). The spell text suggests that you're mostly intended to animate objects in the environment around you, e.g. animating all the bar stools in a tavern. Pulling out ten ball bearings from your pouch and scattering them over a wide area might or might not be something that your DM thinks is reasonable as a free object interaction.

I don't think there is an illegal situation as long as they do not end their turn in the same square.

[Foxhound438]

An hour long buff that does +2d8 radiant on all attacks. Pair it with Crossbow Expert and fire away for 1d6+2d8+Dex. 18.5 per hit with a mundane weapon, 55.5 if they all hit, without Sharpshooter.

but if you are using and building around sharpshooter (which OP is, they're taking 2-3 fighter levels for possible battlemaster options), you get 4 attacks each at 1d8+15, so average of 78 if they all hit. Yeah, I know, accuracy loss, but you have precision attack and a fighting style to offset that. I guess you can argue that holy weapon is more damage if you have crossbow expert and also sharpshooter (85.5), but that's another feat, so probably worse attack rolls for a while and worse spells for a long time, and you ultimately might not be able to max out your power stats if you aren't playing Vuman or wanted a different feat as well. (to your credit I would probably go the rout you suggest, personally, since it saves a class dip)

And for animate objects, it always looks really cool on paper to animate a bunch of little things to do attacks, but if you're rolling into any kind of AOE it's going to last no more than one turn... it is dungeons and dragons, after all, and casters may not be uncommon anyways. I'd still take the spell since it doesn't cost a magical secret or anything.

[Armored Walrus]

I made this argument in the most recent Bard handbook.

Swift Quiver is a trap. It sucks. It sucks on Rangers, too. Just because its an exclusive high level Ranger spell doesn't make it any good. Like Lightning Arrow, it merely sucks the least. That doesn't make it a good spell.

Instead of gaining an additional attack, for one minute, you should get something that boosts every attack you make for an hour.

Enter Holy Weapon, typically exclusive to Clerics and Paladins. One of the very few new spells they got, and its a doozy.

Bonus Action to cast, Concentration, lasts an hour, +2d8 Radiant damage on all attacks, and you can end it early as a bonus action to do an ally-friendly 4d8 Radiant and blind on a failed save, save for half and no blind.

An hour long buff that does +2d8 radiant on all attacks. Pair it with Crossbow Expert and fire away for 1d6+2d8+Dex. 18.5 per hit with a mundane weapon, 55.5 if they all hit, without Sharpshooter.

From a DPS standpoint only, here's what my math tells me; assuming the following:

Archery Fighting Style +2 to hit
Longbow +2, +2 to hit and damage
Level 9/10 so Proficiency bonus is +4 to hit
Dex 20, so +5 to hit and damage.
Bracers of Archery, so +2 damage

Gives us Attack Bonus of +13 and Damage bonus of +9

Just base attacks at 2/turn vs AC 20: Average DPR = 19.35
Base attacks with Sharpshooter: Average DPR = 21.6

Base attack with Holy Weapon enabled vs AC 20: Average DPR = 32.85
With Holy Weapon and Sharpshooter: Average DPR = 30.6

Base attacks plus 2 bonus action attacks via SQ vs AC 20: Average DPR = 38.7
4 x attacks with Sharpshooter vs AC 20: Average DPR = 43.2

Having the opportunity to apply your flat damage bonuses twice as often in a round is more powerful than a couple extra dice. If you have a crit-fishing build of some sort, Holy Weapon might be better, or if you don't get all the magic items listed, but SQ is certainly not a trap option.

((DPR Calculations done using LudicSavant's calculator over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517267-Comprehensive-DPR-Calculator). ))

[CTurbo]

I don't understand the Swift Quiver hate. If you are a Bard, and also an Archer, it's a no brainer to me. ESPECIALLY if you have Sharpshooter. Who doesn't want to double your attacks and damage for 1 encounter? I mean it literally doubles your attacks from 2 to 4. Yeah it would be better if it lasted for more than 1 minute so it's probably best saved for the BBEG, but it's still awesome when used.

I really like Holy Weapon too. You definitely get good mileage out of it for 1 hour assuming you can pull off more than one encounter which shouldn't be hard.

Elemental Weapon lasts an hour too and it does 2 things that the other 2 do not, it raises your to hit, and can be upcast. This makes it my second favorite archer spell to use with Sharpshooter.

Let's compare damage per round assuming 20 Dex.

Swift Quiver without SS - 4d8+20 = 38 damage
Swift Quiver with SS - 4d8+60 = 78 damage

Holy Weapon without SS - 6d8+10 = 37 damage
Holy Weapon with SS - 6d8+30 = 57 damage
Holy Weapon with xbow expert - 3d6+6d8+15 = 52.5 damage
Holy Weapon with xbow expert and SS - 3d6+6d8+45 = 82.5 damage

Elemental Weapon from 5th slot without SS - 2d8+4d4+10 = 29 damage with a bonus +2 to hit
Elemental Weapon from 5th slot with SS - 2d8+4d4+30 = 49 damage with a bonus +2 to hit
Elemental Weapon from 5th slot with xbow expert - 3d6+6d4+15 = 40.5 damage with a bonus +2 to hit
Elemental Weapon from 5th slot with xbow expert and SS -3d6+6d4+45 = 70.5 damage with a bonus +2 to hit

Elemental Weapon from a 7th slot adds +1 to attack and +2.5 damage per attack. Probably not worth it but it's there if you NEED it.

All 3 three are good options.

and yes any Archer really really wants the Archery Fighting style especially if they want SS and what archer doesn't want SS?

[MilkmanDanimal]

Thanks for the nightmare fuel.

Could be worse; they could have made you think about X-Men 3: The Last Stand instead.

*shudder*

[Armored Walrus]

Now if you can get your cleric to cast Holy Weapon on your bow while you have Swift Quiver activated....

[Segev]

I'm kind-of liking the suggestion one person made abut animate objects on ten of your arrows. Cosmetically, you could even string them to your bow to launch them into their initial flight.

[jaappleton]

First, I recommended Holy Weapon paired with Crossbow Expert. IMO, Longbows and Shortbows are a trap option. But that's my opinion, that's hardly fact.

Also, Holy Weapon lasts a full hour. HOUR. You can keep it going between fights. You can't even use Swift Quiver on the turn you activate it, as opposed to HW.

And its Radiant damage. Quite arguably the best type in the game.

You only get so many 5th level slots. And when you've been working your way up to 10th level, think of the average adventuring day. Not in a vacuum, but think of your average dungeon crawl.

If you're an Archer, which one do you want? The one that lasts an hour, or the one that lasts a minute?

Also, you can't utilize Swift Quiver at all on a turn in which you also want to use your bonus action.


EDIT: As far as using Animate Objects on arrows, if you can flavor ten tiny objects as one object moving incredibly fast... You have Yondu from GotG. :smallcool:

[Taebyn]

Swift Quiver is a bit context dependant.

If you get loads of magical arrows available and there is no need for extra ranged damage in the party then it is ok,but probably not worth the pick. Likewise if your campaign has a lot of exploration or social elements, you can probably skip it.

Wall of force you mention, and is probably a much better option.

One thing to think about is that you don't need to take your picks from the top level of spells you can cast - the lower the spell level them more slots you can use each day to cast it - assuming it scales well enough to justify it. Spells like banishment are awesome in this regard.

Even if you do go for damage, something like fireball might suit you better. If you compare for big fights - how many turns worth of damage will you have to do to with swift quiver to catch up with casting 4 enemies in your fireball radius? Is it worth it for the cost of concentration? and is this enough?

I agree with this. Your example of fireball is spot on. I also think people took the ball bearing idea and ran with it. It was just an example of what’s possible with baseline spells for damage.

Ultimately I’m going to play as an archer and controller. I see the merit of swift quiver, I think I just value is overstated. I’ll be taking it as tool in my arsenal and for thematic purposes. I’m just not sir it will be my first pick.

[Aett_Thorn]

One thing I do like about Swift Quiver is that it's non-Action dependent. Meaning that you can use your Action to do whatever you want, and you can still make two bonus action attacks with your bow. Cast a non-concentration spell? Still get two attacks. Heal a friend that's down? Still get two attacks. Use and object to drink a potion? Still two attacks. Heck, you could pick a lock, or use the Dodge, Help, or Disengage Actions, and you still get two attacks. It's kind of nice that way.

[MaxWilson]

One thing I do like about Swift Quiver is that it's non-Action dependent. Meaning that you can use your Action to do whatever you want, and you can still make two bonus action attacks with your bow. Cast a non-concentration spell? Still get two attacks. Heal a friend that's down? Still get two attacks. Use and object to drink a potion? Still two attacks. Heck, you could pick a lock, or use the Dodge, Help, or Disengage Actions, and you still get two attacks. It's kind of nice that way.

To be fair, that benefit is common to a number of damaging spells. Animate Dead lets you use your bonus action to effectively make tons of arrow attacks (on the skeletons' turns); Animate Objects ditto; Bigby's Hand lets you use your bonus action to do 4d8 force damage; Spiritual Weapon lets you use your bonus action to inflict d8+MOD damage; Flaming Sphere or Heat Metal do 2d6 (save for half) or 2d8 damage respectively.

You can deck a crazed Necromancer out in full plate (even if he is nonproficient) and let him spend his actions in combat just Dodging while using his bonus action to shriek, "Kill them! Kill them all!" at all of his skeletal minions.

[Pex]

Effectiveness is an important factor in choosing what abilities to take when given a choice, but it is not necessary for the choice to be the absolute best it could possibly be over everything. If Swift Quiver does what you want to do in a manner that is fun to play and fits your character, then take it. It is irrelevant if some other spell could do a bit more damage. You can't do everything and shouldn't have to.

[Taebyn]

Effectiveness is an important factor in choosing what abilities to take when given a choice, but it is not necessary for the choice to be the absolute best it could possibly be over everything. If Swift Quiver does what you want to do in a manner that is fun to play and fits your character, then take it. It is irrelevant if some other spell could do a bit more damage. You can't do everything and shouldn't have to.

I was saying you can be just as effective in damage without taking swift quiver as a magical secret. It has nothing to do with a bit more damage and everything to do with magical secret choices. As well as resource management. I think your speaking from a place of genuine helpfulness, I’m just clarifying.

[Segev]

You can deck a crazed Necromancer out in full plate (even if he is nonproficient) and let him spend his actions in combat just Dodging while using his bonus action to shriek, "Kill them! Kill them all!" at all of his skeletal minions.

Hah! That's a brilliant way to apply mechanics to that archetype!

[Specter]

Going 2 fighter and possibly 3rd for champion or battle master. 2 revised ranger and taking close quarters shooter. So that should put much more weight on swift quiver? Or am I overinvesting instead of diversifying? Like your guides btw

Hey, thanks, man!

All good options. Ranger is good, but you need the WIS, and the first level might not be very helpful. So Fighter seems like an easier choice. Taking a second or third level is entirely up to how fast you want new spells. If you can wait, then good, otherwise Fighter 1/Bard 19 will be great too.

Another Fighter 3 option is Eldritch Knight, simply because it gives you Shield and Absorb Elements to tank you up.

Also remember that when you don't have Swift Quiver, Greater Invisibility is your friend: attacking with advantage and Sharpshooter is pure murder.

[Sigreid]

Seems your answer is that it's fine if you want archer to be your defining trait but there are other spells that are more broadly useful.

[MrStabby]

The other thing you need to consider is what else you would want to use your bonus action for. There are a couple of spells like healing word that the bard can cast with a bonus action, and many more they could pick up with magical secrets. They also get a lot of bardic inspiration to use bonus actions on.

If you are going for an archer then it is less of an issue but in general a Valor bard can pick up feats like pole arm master, shield master, GWM, crossbow expert and so on to use a bonus action.

[Deathtongue]

Swift Quiver gets (much) better in a game with access to magical items -- which, let's face it, most all of them do despite 5E D&D theorycrafter's fevered insistence on running the numbers sans magical items. I know at least two ways to get Oathbows without magical item rolls from officially sanctioned adventures, case closed.

We had this argument with Booming Blade vs. Extra Attack already. Yes, Booming Blade is better *if* you assume no access to magical items and feats. And since like 100% of published games and at least half of home games past level 5 have magical items, this is a questionable assumption.