Help fighting Black Dragons

[Frission]

So, my party is a group of level 8 characters that have been tasked with eliminating not one, but two adult (or 'mature adult'? unclear) black dragons. The two always fight as a pair, as well.

We have 3 players, each with 2 characters, and a pair of NPC Clerics. Most of the party is made up of fighter types, while I have the rogue and wizard of the group.

I'll be blunt: I've never fought a dragon before this campaign, but I know from our first failed attempt that they have ridiculously high AC and also have spell resistance. I think their stats are modified by the DM, because we're trying to hit like, AC 28 or 29. What can I do to fight them (and/or not die here x3), aside from keeping the party spread out to avoid cones of acid breath? Are there for example, any recommended summon monsters to bring into a fight against one of these, since summons aren't blocked by SR? The vast majority of my attack spells have a shot of just fizzling out from SR... The rogue probably can't use sneak attack on them either. In the last encounter the fighters got a +6 bonus to hit by jumping on its back, but it was so strong they got flung off after one round generally, which always resulted in them being prone -- we ended up having to flee.

Halp. D:

P.S. The DM is infamous for making his major enemies retreat at about half health, so how would we prevent the dragons from fleeing if we get that far?

[Remuko]

So, my party is a group of level 8 characters that have been tasked with eliminating not one, but two adult (or 'mature adult'? unclear) black dragons. The two always fight as a pair, as well.

We have 3 players, each with 2 characters, and a pair of NPC Clerics. Most of the party is made up of fighter types, while I have the rogue and wizard of the group.

I'll be blunt: I've never fought a dragon before this campaign, but I know from our first failed attempt that they have ridiculously high AC and also have spell resistance. I think their stats are modified by the DM, because we're trying to hit like, AC 28 or 29.

And unmodified Mature Adult Black Dragon has 29 AC.

[zlefin]

what sources are available? matters a lot as different sources open up different options. Assay spell resistance for instance.

and how much prep time do you have/how accessible are things like learning new spells from a library?

they're stats might not be modified; as the adult and mature adult black dragons are 27/29 ac.

in general, you're gonna want to give the whole party energy resist/protection to the degree you can.

[PunBlake]

Spell selection is very important for fights like these, and I hope you have access to the Spell Compendium because it's your best friend.
Spells to consider:
PHB: Fly (for melee fighters), Energy Resistance (Acid) (for everyone)
SpC: Earthbind or Wingbind (to prevent escape and bring the dragons to the ground), Antidragon Aura (a great buff)

[Elkad]

AC29 shouldn't really be a problem for fighter types at L8. (Stock AC for a Mature Adult. Regular Adult is AC27)

BAB+8, +4 for str (16 base and +2 gloves), +3 weapon, +1 Haste is fairly low-op. That's +16, so you need a 13 to-hit on your first 2 swings (hasted) and an 18 on your followup to hit AC29. Not great, but you'll average hitting once a round anyway.

Bardsong, Bless, Weapon Focus, Flanking, Charging and a whole bunch of other things will boost that even higher.

The bigger problem is doing 250ish damage in a hurry. Doable with an uber-charger, but if you guys are low-op Sword&Board types, you'll have problems.


Of course you have a Wizard, so you can just Shivering Touch it to death (well, Dex:0, followed by a Coup de Grace) instead.

Obviously you want Resist/Protection from Acid on everyone.

2 Mature Adults is something like a CR16 encounter, way above your party's level, so no matter what it's going to be hard.

[BowStreetRunner]

Acid Arrow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidArrow.htm) ignores SR and uses Touch AC. If you can manage to change the energy type to something the Black Dragon isn't immune to, this might be useful.
Web (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/web.htm) ignores SR and allows a Reflex save, which isn't particularly high for most black dragons. Probably it's their worst save.
Generally, your Conjuration spells are the best bet when trying to work around SR. Look through the list and you'll find a lot of others that might work too.

[King of Nowhere]

CR aside, it's fully doable in my experience without too much op, with the party you have.
As said, the melee should have around +15 to hit, and still deal a fair amount of damage. take advantage of flanking whenever you can for another +2. rogues can sneak attack dragons just as much as anyone else, so that's not a problem. and with a couple npc clerics, you certainly have no shortage of spell slots to cast resist energy (acid).
to prevent them from escaping, web has already been mentioned. resilient sphere may work too, but requires some luck on rolls.
basically, the melee should surround the dragons and deal damage, while the clerics should buff and heal them, and the wizard should perform control.

even if they escape, you can still loot around, so it's a major win for your team

[Mike Miller]

In the event someone in your group has Dragon magazine, issue 353 has a list of spells without spell resistance. It is quite a useful reference

[Khedrac]

One of the main things for fighting dragons in the open is how to ground them; even if you can fly, dragons have some of the highest fly speeds in the game, so despite their poor maneuverability they are hard to melee mid-air.
If you have access to caster level boosts (such as the spell true casting) then look for spells which will drop them to the ground. Failing this, even spells like slow can be a huge boost for you - dragons in melee have a fearsome full attack, and dragons in flight will either be able to attack or fly - but not both! Of course, you will not only need multiple casts to penetrate the SR, you will multiple casts to get them to fail the save...

If you don't think you can get the spells to round them through save + SR, then look at non save, no SR spells like the orb of <energy> line, but be warned, dragons also have a lot of hit points.

For the fighter types, there's not much to advise - get a bow and arrows so you can at least attack until it is near enough to melee. Charge if you can - it's going to hit your AC so maximise your chance of hitting it when you get one. If you cannot fly, make absolutely sure that you can feather-fall.
Stock up on potions - the fight will probably end up being very scattered (not just to avoid the breath weapons, but because of the dragons' move) - so you will take a lot of damage and the clerics may not be near you to heal you when you need it. Look into anti-grappling options.

[Morty_Jhones]

this fight is going to be realy tough. at level 8 your not realy ready for a pair of black dragons. can you leave this fight for later? other wise spliting thes suckers up is going to be KEY to winning.

the main question is dispite your gm geting monsters to run away is he genraly fair about it?

If hes playing the true to the desripoton in the book them black dragons only come together to mate, so while they have only attacked in a pare the should still unt singly also there should be a nest somewhere, can you find it?

[Fizban]

Need more info: characters' actual stats, gear, cash, terrain, what tactics the dragons use, etc. Normally I'd say this fight is bogus, but with 6 PCs and 2 NPCs a pair of adults might be reasonable- mature adults is level +6 and you shouldn't be fighting them regardless of numbers. Against adults SR vs you is 50/50, as expected for SR, but spellcasters are accustomed to 100% on that angle. Actually the easiest check is how big they are: Adult is still large with a 10' space, while Mature Adult is huge with a 15' space, and if it's the latter I'd pretty much just call BS and demand to know where the special sidequest of being allowed to win is (because punching that far above your weight requires several char-op'd arcanists).

Black dragons normally breathe lines, not cones, but they could be using a feat. Either way, you shouldn't be scattering, you should be using Resist Energy/Mass Resist Energy or Protection from Energy to counter breath weapons. If people are being shaken by dragonfear they should be Remove Fear'd out of it. There are no normal summoned monsters who will matter against enemies this far above your level, except as literal meat shields or something like a Lanern Archon casting Aid. There are attack spells which don't allow SR: Lesser Orb of [Energy] and Orb of [Energy] are the char-op favorites, but there's also Blast of Flame and Blast of the Sand (from Sandstorm that one)- all of these are close range spells, which is more reason why you don't want to scatter. But with the amount of hit points on these, unless you've got some free metamagic, you're not gonna do much.

There is in fact no reason why your rogue wouldn't be able to sneak attack them- though once again, sneak attack is 30' range. Just because blindsense lets them know where the rogue is doesn't mean they don't need a spot check to beat hide, or Greater Invisbility for multiple attacks. Of course they also have to hit. Against foes this far above your level you can only be expected to get good hit ratios with buffs: Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Bless/Aid/Prayer, Heroism, and Recitation are all within your range. Note that attacking from Greater Invisibility also gives +2 from being invisible.

Then there's the debuffs and snaring, both of which basically come down to two basic items: Tanglefoot Bags, and Nets. Assuming these are Large dragons, if they come close enough for a net, they're stuck dealing with it, and you have plenty of bodies to throw nets. Tanglefoot bags can be fired with launch item and if they fail the reflex save (reasonable odds if you keep hitting them) they can't fly anymore. There's a Downdraft spell that can be used to force them a little closer, but I'd say if they're close enough for Downdraft they were going to melee you anyway.

How do you press them to actually engage you at close range? Bows bows bows. Unless you're supposed to be fighting them in their lair, in which case that fight depends almost entirely on what level of awesomeness the DM has built into their lair. The one guaranteed thing would be an underwater/swampy exit tunnel, which would require a whole different pile of spells to purse through. But fighting in a cave means they can be "cornered," they'll not retreat immediately, and you can block their escape with Stone Shape or Wall spells.

I never covered how to avoid dying to the much dreaded full attack- against level appropriate dragons, just having level appropriate AC and a buff is fine, but these are overleveled dragons. Stoneskin it is then. One thing is for sure: if your party can't just handle them as they are, you're not handling them unless you've got enough cash to buy the spells/scrolls/etc to do the job. (Also in case you aren't familiar, all the non PHB spell I mentioned except for Blast of Sand are in Spell Compendium).

If their lair is poorly designed and you want some serious style points, cornering them and dropping a scroll of Cloudkill is no-SR/save for half only Con damage. So pretty much only 1 point per round, but every couple of rounds counts, and if you're got enough people casting new walls/throwing nets, you might get some good damage in while they try to escape. I'm also pretty sure nothing ever says you can't layer fogs, mmm cheesy. You could also hit up Sandstorm again and try a scroll of Scalding Mud: 8d6 as it falls from the ceiling, then 5d6 per round for a minute after that, and -2 on attacks and AC while you're shooting or throwing nets or whatever.

[Eldariel]

Let's see now. Things to keep in mind:
- If they're Huge, they're Mature Adults. Otherwise they're younger. Mature Adults are pretty seriously buff - consider twice before engaging them head-on. Rather use a proxy or some other party or a helpful Silver Dragon or whatever.

- Dragons have lots of HD and all good saves. This makes them hard targets for save-or-X spells (use ones with partial saves or no saves). Their Dex is rather poor so Reflex is their worst save but even that's pretty good.

- They have a lot of HP so damage is a relatively poor method of bringing them down. Sadly it might be the only one the party can bring most of its power to bear on.

- Dragons have good AC and Spell Resistance, but they're large and low Dex so their Touch AC is like to be poor. (Ranged) touch spells such as Rays are a good vector of attack particularly combined with ways to ignore Spell Resistance such as True Casting [Complete Mage] or Assay Resistance [Spell Compendium].

- Dragons have absurd Flight speeds. Avoid engaging them in a dogfight; they have a huge edge and can just breathe you to death.

- Black Dragons have Acid immunity and they breathe Acid. If it ever occurred you to bomb them with acid spells, don't do that. Ward the party against Acid best you can; Resist Energy negates most of their damage.

- Young Adult and older Black Dragons can cast spells as Sorcerers. Their Caster Level is low so Dispel Magic is a good idea; otherwise spells like Mage Armor, Shield, Protection from Good and company can make them ridiculously difficult to hurt martially, and your party is almost all mooks so any success probably depends on enabling the mooks to press autoattack enough times.

- Black Dragons have Waterbreathing and an array of water-related powers; even with Freedom of Movement, avoid engaging them in water.


So, let's talk spells. Dispel Magic is a must (though the Clerics can cover it too); your mooks can never hit it if it's running around with 37 AC (Mage Armor and Shield). Your caster level is easily high enough to dispel those. Resist Energy and melee buffs like Haste and Fly/Polymorph are musts, pre-battle. Everyone needs to be able to fly and the more damage the better. Then you can Dimension Door the party next to one for full attacks with flanking to deny it the strafing opportunity. This would set the Rogue up for Sneak Attacks too: Dragons have no special immunity to flanking. Greater Invisibility would also work: they have blindsense but no blindsight so they are still flat-footed and with 50% miss chance against invisible targets in spite of knowing the square. Just be careful of them strafing around.

Things to hurt their mobility like Ray of Exhaustion could be a good approach. Two castings guarantee Exhaustion which is brutal for flying things (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#exhausted) (moving at half speed means they can't fly and do things; and Dex of 4 means you can nuke them to 0 and immobility relatively easily). This requires some way to overcome SR like Assay or you can just go for the one-shot with Shivering Touch [Frostburn] + Spectral Hand. Other than that, you can always take the angle of trying to block their movement with readied action to cast Walls (Wall of Ice is 4th level) causing stalling and falling for easy targets.

And yes, have the Clerics use Lesser Planar Ally and get any Skeletons or Zombies you can Animate: you need all the beef you can get for this fight. Something like a Fire Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#fireGiant) Skeletons could do a lot for you for example; pretty quick, good HP, good Strength, decent attack. Commune for their location, hunt one down and animate it for extra melee beef. Summons are like to not be very useful on this level in this fight though unless you have put a lot of resources into them: their attack bonus is too low to hit the things and most of the SLAs you'd get do little or less. Well, they can always Aid Another but you can do better with high level slots. Lantern Archon from SMIV to plink away with the touch attacks and spam Aid could be useful though. However, other level 4 spells are like to be better - but if you do want one summon, pick up Lantern Archons as they at least have touch attacks thus autohitting Dragons.

EDIT: *facepalm* I forgot about the best level 4 spell to this end and in general. Forget about Wall of Ice, Solid Fog is a no-save no-SR disable that totally screws over Dragon mobility. No need to worry about stall mechanics or their feats (though Stalling one midair can still be very strong), Solid Fog just locks them down for easy Dimension Door surround'n'bash and prevents escape. And as fog you probably don't have to argue about whether air can support it. Add Ray of Enfeeblement for further melee enhancement in case you can overcome their SR.

[CharonsHelper]

If you have several fighters - I'm going to give you a huge tip. Have two of them use tower shields!

Adult black dragons only cast as 3rd level sorcerers - so not a huge threat there. By far the biggest threat from them in the air is their breath weapons. Have 1-2 fighters put their shields into cover mode and then ready actions to move in front of said breath weapons while the rest of the party stays clumped.

Sure - the tower shield will take damage, but if you have them made out of mundane crystal that's Hardness 8 & 50 hp - costs 180gp.

This will basically shut down the dragons' strafing attacks and force them down into melee.

[denthor]

Wizard Necromancy spells.

See if you can get a scroll of wave of exhaustion no save. -6 to dex and strength. You might get them both but even one leaving early would help. Lowers hits damage and armor class.

Spectal hand plus 3rd level vampiric touch. No save just beat magic resistance.

On the Rouge stone skin, improved Invisibility. Backstabbing does great damage.

[Kayblis]

PSA: Dragons can't be defeated by dropping its Dexterity to zero through ability damage.

This is a common misconception, drop someone to zero on a single stat and they're off. But, in actuality, each stat has a different effect when dropped to zero, all of them neutralizing for sure, but zero Dexterity gives you Paralyzed, which True Dragons are immune to. Therefore, the famous Shivering Touch is only good to lower AC, Reflex saves and related skill checks.

[Remuko]

PSA: Dragons can't be defeated by dropping its Dexterity to zero through ability damage.

This is a common misconception, drop someone to zero on a single stat and they're off. But, in actuality, each stat has a different effect when dropped to zero, all of them neutralizing for sure, but zero Dexterity gives you Paralyzed, which True Dragons are immune to. Therefore, the famous Shivering Touch is only good to lower AC, Reflex saves and related skill checks.

not true.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_abilityscoreloss&alpha=

"Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.". says nothing about the Paralyzed status effect, so theyre not immune to it, and even if they were it would be a rules dysfunction because 0 in Dexterity means you can't move, dragons being able to move with 0 dex would make no sense. Luckily its not the case.

[zlefin]

PSA: Dragons can't be defeated by dropping its Dexterity to zero through ability damage.

This is a common misconception, drop someone to zero on a single stat and they're off. But, in actuality, each stat has a different effect when dropped to zero, all of them neutralizing for sure, but zero Dexterity gives you Paralyzed, which True Dragons are immune to. Therefore, the famous Shivering Touch is only good to lower AC, Reflex saves and related skill checks.

I'd say it's a more complicated rules question than that. unless you have a more explicit ruling/cite.
dragons are immune to paralysis effects, not paralysis in general; but 0 dex causing paralysis isn't a "paralysis effect".

[Fizban]

The minimum forward speed for all maneuverabilities below Good is only half their normal speed, so halving their speed does not cause a stall. There's two dragons here- how many castings are all these things gonna take?

[Mike Miller]

I am undecided but feel like RAI having 0 dex should make the dragon unable to move. However, having dex 0, as said above, blah blah blah... And helpless. The first thing the SRD says about being helpless is paralysed, as the status effect. So it is interesting

[ViperMagnum357]

Dragons are only immune to magic Sleep and Paralysis effects: in any case, both my 3.5 DMG and the SRD merely describe ability score loss for Dexterity as 'Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless'. Paralysis is not mentioned anywhere, so a Dragon absolutely can be dropped and rendered helpless by Dex damage, drain or penalties in lieu of another effect providing immunity.

[Mike Miller]

Dragons are only immune to magic Sleep and Paralysis effects: in any case, both my 3.5 DMG and the SRD merely describe ability score loss for Dexterity as 'Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless'. Paralysis is not mentioned anywhere, so a Dragon absolutely can be dropped and rendered helpless by Dex damage, drain or penalties in lieu of another effect providing immunity.

It would be fun as the DM to keep the dragon moving at 0 dex though

[Eldariel]

The minimum forward speed for all maneuverabilities below Good is only half their normal speed, so halving their speed does not cause a stall. There's two dragons here- how many castings are all these things gonna take?

It means they're stuck taking double move each round to remain aloft though. For stall, the Readied Obstacle works, unless the Dragon has seriously feat-improved flight.

And these are all only options, of course. Realistically you Solid Fog one and try and mob the other one with debuffs, perhaps a second Solid Fog, Dimension Door, etc. You kinda have to go for mage-enabled melee though.

The chances of non-archery focused characters doing anything useful with a bow vs. High AC enemies are just abysmal; they rarely have the Dex, the feats or the equipment to meaningfully hurt a dragon. Only hits on 20 doesn't suffice.

[Fizban]

The chances of non-archery focused characters doing anything useful with a bow vs. High AC enemies are just abysmal; they rarely have the Dex, the feats or the equipment to meaningfully hurt a dragon. Only hits on 20 doesn't suffice.
The only thing you need is a successful attack roll, not a specialized build- against a level appropriate dragon full BAB+ buffs or debuffs is still fine, and 3/4 BAB people are only at -2 attack (a young adult at CR 9 only has AC 24, 8+2+2 doesn't need 20's). The point is pressure: you've got 10 min/level of Resist Energy to fish for 20s if you really need to, which is plenty of time. Assuming the dragons will ever be willing to close to melee, letting them know that breath weapons vs an hour of shooting won't work should get them to do it. If the DM is going to run them "intelligently," as in never fighting any battle they have the slightest chance of losing, then they show up to gank the PCs by setting the inn on fire and picking them off when they escape or something. The possibility that the DM will have the dragons refuse to engage is why I consider the need to attack them in their lair, which can also conveniently open up a couple strong unavoidable DoTs, if they can buy the scrolls. But if the DM won't fight on open ground (where even with perfect buffs the numbers are still pretty much against them aside from the spell that shall not be named), and has given them an impenetrable death gauntlet of a lair, then I'd just nope out and find another quest.



Hmm, hasn't been a week yet, suppose it's too early to be hearing back on how things went.

[Eldariel]

The only thing you need is a successful attack roll, not a specialized build- against a level appropriate dragon full BAB+ buffs or debuffs is still fine, and 3/4 BAB people are only at -2 attack (a young adult at CR 9 only has AC 24, 8+2+2 doesn't need 20's). The point is pressure: you've got 10 min/level of Resist Energy to fish for 20s if you really need to, which is plenty of time. Assuming the dragons will ever be willing to close to melee, letting them know that breath weapons vs an hour of shooting won't work should get them to do it. If the DM is going to run them "intelligently," as in never fighting any battle they have the slightest chance of losing, then they show up to gank the PCs by setting the inn on fire and picking them off when they escape or something. The possibility that the DM will have the dragons refuse to engage is why I consider the need to attack them in their lair, which can also conveniently open up a couple strong unavoidable DoTs, if they can buy the scrolls. But if the DM won't fight on open ground (where even with perfect buffs the numbers are still pretty much against them aside from the spell that shall not be named), and has given them an impenetrable death gauntlet of a lair, then I'd just nope out and find another quest.

Well, the thing is, you need to attack so damn long to hurt one. Like 18 Str, 14 Dex (a fairly generous point buy) Fighter with 22 Str on this level has a Mw. Bow for +11/+6 to attack for 1d8+6 damage. That's a significant gold investment already. Adult Black Dragon has DR 5/Magic, AC 31 with Mage Armor and 199 HP (no magic items included even though an Adult Black Dragon has plenty). A Fighter with a bow would do 0.60 damage on average per turn, or 1.15 if they got something that penetrates the DR. 6 Fighters would do a grand total of 6.9 damage on average a turn in the best case scenario; even everyone getting full attacks every round penetrating damage you'd need 30 full rounds to kill one - and if the terrain has obstacles, Dragons can probably strafe around so most rounds most characters aren't getting full attacks. And yes, the Mage Armor can be dispelled but that's only one round and Dragons can recast it and it's not like they have anything better to do between breaths anyways. The casters will run out of Dispel Magics first; bows aren't enough to make the reduction in AC count. Buffs would maybe take half off that but even then, that's a lot of breaths and a level 8 Fighter has only 64.5 HP average assuming 14 Con. Dragons are faster than you so you're not going to corner them; they can skirmish you before you get within miles of their lair, heal up, repeat. You don't have Teleport yet so you can't just waltz in and even if you can, I don't think you can take on two Adult Black Dragons in their lair; traps, magic items, etc. And once your protections are down the Dragons can hunt you down and you're mincemeat. The party simply needs a better plan, something that doesn't give the enemy an ample time to retreat; even in their lair, if the Dragons truly feel they might die I'm certain they'd nope out, heal up and come back for vengeance and to get back their hoard.

This is precisely why I'd focus on lockdown magic to cut the escape routes to try and get a melee surround where the melee types can actually bring their best to bear as opposed to being stuck with a tertiary option they barely outperform Warrior 1s at. Solid Fog, Wall of Ice, et cetera. If you can solve the flight quandrum (Air Walk, Fly and Polymorph should suffice and between 3 casters you should have enough slots to even precast a lot of them), you should be able to lock them down and get in. And once in you should be able to defeat them.


Hell, even with Resist Energy, Adult Breath averages 50 damage on a failed save and 25 on a successful one. So 30 or 5 damage. Two coordinated breaths can oneshot an unlucky Fighter let alone anything less durable through Resist Energy. Even with two Clerics, chances are the characters wouldn't like that race. But again, even if they could, it's very hard to stop the Dragons from disengaging without appropriate use of magic.

[Fizban]

Adult Black Dragon has DR 5/Magic, AC 31 with Mage Armor
The OP has already given a target AC that apparently does not include Mage Armor.

Dragons can probably strafe around so most rounds most characters aren't getting full attacks.
If you're already assuming that it takes a 20 to hit, every attack of every full attack out to 1,000' has the same chance of hitting, which is a long-ass strafing run at 150' speed.

Dragons are faster than you so you're not going to corner them; they can skirmish you before you get within miles of their lair, heal up, repeat. You don't have Teleport yet so you can't just waltz in and even if you can, I don't think you can take on two Adult Black Dragons in their lair; traps, magic items, etc.
Dragons do not have innate healing and nothing in the MM actually indicates they'll take their randomly rolled treasure and convert it into healing items. Dragons do not in fact have innate trapbuilding abilities, as much as some lair designers like to think so (they don't even have Craft as a class skill, and good luck pwning anything with 1st level cl 1 magic traps- oh wait, Craft Wondrous requires cl 3). Assuming the party does have any funds for this massively overleveled hunt, they could buy a Teleport, or a better Mass Resist Energy scroll, or a Scalding Mud scroll, or yes the scrolls you favor.

If the DM is playing hardcore optimized "combat as war" dragons, this many levels above the party, then frankly it doesn't matter how hard hard you optimize their party. By your own rules the dragons just leave, "heal up," and kill them whenever and however they fancy, and nothing other than a lucky Assay Resistanced' Shivering Touch Insta-Kill is going to matter. Lockdown and melee? Their melee attack routine shreds just as hard as the breath weapon, so unless "melee" means "insta-kill uberchargers" that's not any better unless you have two scrolls of Stoneskin for everyone in the party. In order for the problem to be solvable at all, the DM must not be running it that way. And if the DM isn't running it that way, there's plenty of room to wear them down at range and bait them into melee (where you then cover them in nets, tanglefootbags, and any other irresistable debuff you have), corner them, or something else. Getting them to fly over the town when several hundred ranged weapons are pointed up is another valid strategy.

There's also the dozens of flaks of Alchemist's Fire plan. 20gp a pop ain't cheap, but each is a nearly guaranteed 2d6 of damage (unless the dragons are obliging enough to waste a full round action putting out the flames). They're also the touch attack vector you'd use to let the rogue land their sneak attacks. And speaking of hiding: adult dragon spot check is gonna be +23-25 most likely. That's high enough the rogue's not gonna beat it without some invisibility, but still low enough that depending on when the DM gives out spot checks, there's a good chance they won't notice a bunch of mooks laying in ambush from the air with that good 'ol -1/10' penalty. Which also lets you keep playing the hubris angle, the only one I think has an actual chance of working: dragons swoop down, see a bunch of mooks in ambush near the PCs, laugh, then realize too late that their spot checks didn't catch them all and those mooks and carrying tanglefoots and nets and fire.

[Eldariel]

The OP has already given a target AC that apparently does not include Mage Armor.

*shrug* Who knows about the next time.


If you're already assuming that it takes a 20 to hit, every attack of every full attack out to 1,000' has the same chance of hitting, which is a long-ass strafing run at 150' speed.

Which doesn't preclude cover from trees, hills, gorges, any terrain shapes in general.


Dragons do not have innate healing and nothing in the MM actually indicates they'll take their randomly rolled treasure and convert it into healing items. Dragons do not in fact have innate trapbuilding abilities, as much as some lair designers like to think so (they don't even have Craft as a class skill, and good luck pwning anything with 1st level cl 1 magic traps- oh wait, Craft Wondrous requires cl 3). Assuming the party does have any funds for this massively overleveled hunt, they could buy a Teleport, or a better Mass Resist Energy scroll, or a Scalding Mud scroll, or yes the scrolls you favor.

Which is RAWtarded; Dragons are intelligent beings, there's no sense in their treasure being random and this doesn't sound like a DM to run them that dumb. Besides, these Dragons have CL3. Among other things. Lots of prestige, gold and social skills. And I'll bet your ass any Dragons with any sense in their heads will get healing items and these are clearly being run as beings of sense. They can also hire trapbuilders, they don't need to do everything themselves. What do you think one of those Dragon-worshipping Kobold tribes could do? They could set up whatever the Dragongod wants and get out when ordered while establishing a cult. And high level scroll availability is not a guarantee (I'd say it's very unlikely given how rare high level arcanists are), though of course if they are available, this is a good chance to use them.


If the DM is playing hardcore optimized "combat as war" dragons, this many levels above the party, then frankly it doesn't matter how hard hard you optimize their party. By your own rules the dragons just leave, "heal up," and kill them whenever and however they fancy, and nothing other than a lucky Assay Resistanced' Shivering Touch Insta-Kill is going to matter. Lockdown and melee? Their melee attack routine shreds just as hard as the breath weapon, so unless "melee" means "insta-kill uberchargers" that's not any better unless you have two scrolls of Stoneskin for everyone in the party. In order for the problem to be solvable at all, the DM must not be running it that way. And if the DM isn't running it that way, there's plenty of room to wear them down at range and bait them into melee (where you then cover them in nets, tanglefootbags, and any other irresistable debuff you have), corner them, or something else. Getting them to fly over the town when several hundred ranged weapons are pointed up is another valid strategy.

That's not hardcore "combat as war" optimised. That's basic logic in enemy behaviour. Huge difference. Optimised Dragons would be Spellhoarding Loredrakes with 3rd level spells, using permanently Clinging Breath, various breath shapes, optimised spellcasting and Blood Wind/Charger setup for one-shot full melee attacks from 100' away. Hardcore optimised dragons would have hordes of minions on top of that and great many magic items tailored to their strengths and so on; and this is without getting into fear escalation and other nasty business their innate traits enable.

And yes, lockdown will still work. Sure, they'll kill one-two characters but the party will at least kill them in less than a year. You don't need Chargers or Shivering Touch (which doesn't need to be lucky, you just get a Lesser Rod of Maximize and ensure the 18 Dex damage). You already have control spells that work on Dragons. This is a low optimisation game. And I don't know why people keep talking about Überchargers: just "charger" does. Übercharger refers to a specific build that tries to maximize charge damage (last I checked, DocRoc & al. got it to scientific notation damage).

I don't really see why you consider this unfair. The world doesn't need to cater to players; everything is not fair (even DMG recommends as much) and that's okay. The game feels pretty stale if you can just waltz through every encounter expecting it to conveniently fall into the "beatable/easy" range. And the world doesn't feel very living. It's more like a computer game at that point, which kinda wastes the potential offered by a DM. Players should get in over their heads and players should get to plan. Players can run away (like they did) when they get in over their heads. Now they are at a situation with full advance knowledge and a strategic layout and players have a full control of what they do. CR is nominal at this point; it comes down to strategic, not tactical actions.


There's also the dozens of flaks of Alchemist's Fire plan. 20gp a pop ain't cheap, but each is a nearly guaranteed 2d6 of damage (unless the dragons are obliging enough to waste a full round action putting out the flames). They're also the touch attack vector you'd use to let the rogue land their sneak attacks. And speaking of hiding: adult dragon spot check is gonna be +23-25 most likely. That's high enough the rogue's not gonna beat it without some invisibility, but still low enough that depending on when the DM gives out spot checks, there's a good chance they won't notice a bunch of mooks laying in ambush from the air with that good 'ol -1/10' penalty. Which also lets you keep playing the hubris angle, the only one I think has an actual chance of working: dragons swoop down, see a bunch of mooks in ambush near the PCs, laugh, then realize too late that their spot checks didn't catch them all and those mooks and carrying tanglefoots and nets and fire.

Touch attack vector is great if you get close enough to throw those Flasks; they're not a bad idea but 50' is not a lot against 150' flying enemies. Definitely worth carrying on you. Yes, getting mooks is a great idea provided you can find people you can convince to come

[Fizban]

Besides, these Dragons have CL3.
Looks like I read the table crooked, fair enough. Never seen a dragon with a crafting feat though.

Among other things. Lots of prestige, gold and social skills. And I'll bet your ass any Dragons with any sense in their heads will get healing items and these are clearly being run as beings of sense. They can also hire trapbuilders, they don't need to do everything themselves. What do you think one of those Dragon-worshipping Kobold tribes could do? They could set up whatever the Dragongod wants and get out when ordered while establishing a cult. And high level scroll availability is not a guarantee (I'd say it's very unlikely given how rare high level arcanists are), though of course if they are available, this is a good chance to use them.
That's not hardcore "combat as war" optimised. That's basic logic in enemy behaviour.
I disagree. "Basic logic" is breath weapon strafing/general use of flight and running away when you know you're outmatched. What you've got there, is a whole paragraph of extended backstory plans and even additional monsters (as you start bringing in kobolds) that you personally expect of dragons.

I also find it amusing that you'd level possible restrictions on high level scrolls, while simultaneously assuming these (evil, non-shapeshifting) dragons can just walk up and buy whatever they want, apparently including people to come out and build significant magical traps for them. Bit of a double standard. The main scroll I'm suggesting is 6th level, which would probably require a trip to a metropolis but is still within standard NPC levels (also on the druid list), and resist 30 is only CL 11.

Regarding the focused double breath, you can also ready an action for full Protection From Energy on anyone they target with both breaths.


Huge difference. Optimised Dragons would be Spellhoarding Loredrakes with 3rd level spells, using permanently Clinging Breath, various breath shapes, optimised spellcasting and Blood Wind/Charger setup for one-shot full melee attacks from 100' away. Hardcore optimised dragons would have hordes of minions on top of that and great many magic items tailored to their strengths and so on; and this is without getting into fear escalation and other nasty business their innate traits enable.
Again, you have made a perfect demonstration of our differences- and I just think you're too far in the deep end. This is a party with 6 members and only one of them is an arcanist while the rest are mostly fighters. Their line of optimization is so far back that your "basic logic" is actually hardcore char-op (or rather, monster-op), at least by my estimate.


I don't really see why you consider this unfair. The world doesn't need to cater to players; everything is not fair (even DMG recommends as much)
Incorrect: the DMG does not recommend a status quo world, it merely states that as a possible mode of play, and further warns that the players need to be informed if that is the how the game will be played.

Additionally, the CR system makes it very clear that overleveled monsters are extremely lethal; DMG p49, "By contrast, an encounter of even one or two levels higher than the party level might tax the PCs to their limit. . . Remember that when the EL is higher than the party level, the chance for PC fatality rises dramatically."

The difficulty table does recommend a whopping 20% total of ELs above the party level, but that's still ELs. Not CRs. And the obvious problem with monsters of higher CRs is that, as you pointed out yourself, they have dramatically higher chances of just one-shotting/rounding a PC (which then decreases the chance the survivors can win or even drag away the body, begin death spiral). There is no given standard lethality, but monsters of appropriate CR very rarely have the ability to actually one-round people, usually at best having a save or die or grapple that can be negated with an immunity buff carried by the Cleric. You say that they'll probably have a couple deaths like that's acceptable, but I say no, most people don't find that acceptable as a default. The party should not be given challenges that will almost certainly result in character death, unless they specifically opted into that sort of game.

The top two given difficulties are "one PC might very well die," and "the PCs should run." One might very well die is not 1-2 will certainly die. And nothing there says that the party is expected to run, then turn around and fight and win the encounter they were expected to run from.

Furthermore, nothing in the CR system guarantees monster-op. Simply put, the practice of slapping Mage Armor and Shield (and Scintillating Scales) on every dragon massively changes their statblocks. Giving them a lair full of traps and advantageous terrain has nothing to do with their CR. Taking monsters that are already above the party level and thus extra lethal, and making them more lethal, the effects should be obvious. But then the people who op their dragons usually op all their other monsters too, which makes their position more obvious.

Players should get in over their heads and players should get to plan. Players can run away (like they did) when they get in over their heads. Now they are at a situation with full advance knowledge and a strategic layout and players have a full control of what they do. CR is nominal at this point; it comes down to strategic, not tactical actions.
Players should also have a reasonable expectation that their combat mechanics can overcome foes in combat. If you need to suddenly bust out a level of optimization you weren't previously using, that's. . . not cool. Especially for the majority of this party that can't just magically change their spells and pick up an underpriced caster item and do the very thing balance snobs say is terrible about the game.

As such, I actually find the idea of buying several scrolls and pulling a "burn down the house around them" type of ploy to be far *less* disruptive. By explicitly purchasing effects that would actually be level appropriate for the CR of the foe and using a simple strategy of cornering and dogpiling them with more no-miss consumables, the focus becomes "hey look what we came up with to deal with something above our level," rather than "wow turns out we could have been fighting things way above our level the whole time."

Aside from your lack of mention of nets and alchemicals (really, I don't see how Solid Fog is going to make such a huge difference, they'd be better off just turning it against you by waiting inside), our "plans" aren't really that different. Except you seem to think their lower op mostly fighter party can totally carve up those dragons if you just layer enough buffs and lockdown or use the one-shot spell (even though I'm pretty sure if the thread was reversed you'd list all those things the dragons apparently should be doing as fool-proof against the party, since that's what usually happens when a DM asks why their dragons aren't winning). While I think the DM failed to run the numbers and set them a combat challenge they can't actually meet* (hence why I'd have liked it if the OP could have given us more stats so we're not just arguing past each other on the point), and thus it's time to side-quest/consumable bomb/call the DM out on it. And you particularly hate the idea of non-archer builds shooting bows.

*And for a DM making up things like "+6 to hit for getting on its back," I think not having run the numbers is a lot more likely than them having already planned out an elaborate lair backstory. Worst would be all three being true.

Touch attack vector is great if you get close enough to throw those Flasks; they're not a bad idea but 50' is not a lot against 150' flying enemies. Definitely worth carrying on you. Yes, getting mooks is a great idea provided you can find people you can convince to come
For sneak attack you'd need to be in 30' anyway, and for the rest: Large dragon line breath weapon is only 80'. Aside from various magical ways to increase throwing range, oils/scrolls/wands of Launch Item will be in range if the dragons try to use their vaunted breath (or Enlarged Launch item if you need 200' for some reason). We both seem to be assuming that the dragons can be made to enter melee, regardless of how it's done, so why would the range be a problem? I mean, if the dragons were *really* trying, they'd drop rocks from 1,000' in the air on targets their spies already told them would be there.

As for mooks: well if the dragon can hire people, why can't the PCs? Mercs are horrendously underpriced and all you need is hands to throw. The main problem is the dragonfear, which is actually well designed at doing what it's supposed to and crushing non-adventurer armies, so you need either 5HD mooks or a nice heroes' feast.


Back to my "burn the house down around them plan:" assuming they live in a cave you could pull the old smoking them out trick. But they'll just hide in the water with their water breathing? Great, means they're standing still so you can dump the roof on them, while the party straps waterskins to their faces and Water Breathings their own way in. Or they run away, which is also fine, 'cause then you loot the cave. And dragons usually try to take their loot back, yes? Letting you choose the next battlefield.

[atemu1234]

Shivering Touch is an easy way to take down at least one of them, if not both, if you can get in touch range without being subjected to what I'll call a 'Draconian blender set to frappe'.

[Anthrowhale]

Something like Ice Darts + Wounding Spell seems worth mentioning. If you can manage to hit them with (say) 10 castings, they lose hp at 10/round. An unskilled heal check to stop the bleeding is difficult so a cure spell is the most plausible solution. But since cure spells are not the most efficient way to recover hp an optimized dragon may not have quick access...

[Eldariel]

I disagree. "Basic logic" is breath weapon strafing/general use of flight and running away when you know you're outmatched. What you've got there, is a whole paragraph of extended backstory plans and even additional monsters (as you start bringing in kobolds) that you personally expect of dragons.

Everything exists in an ecology and a lair is a building; much like a Vampire's Castle is probably not built by the Vampire himself, that doesn't really matter far as the challenge is concerned. Every monster has treasure and certainly, the game makes much more sense if the monsters have tried to acquire things that are useful to them. And it's not like the adventurers/cities/etc. they've raided would contain nothing of use. Indeed, I'd expect they try to also get things of use to them.


I also find it amusing that you'd level possible restrictions on high level scrolls, while simultaneously assuming these (evil, non-shapeshifting) dragons can just walk up and buy whatever they want, apparently including people to come out and build significant magical traps for them. Bit of a double standard. The main scroll I'm suggesting is 6th level, which would probably require a trip to a metropolis but is still within standard NPC levels (also on the druid list), and resist 30 is only CL 11.

Yeah, precisely. Takes a metropolis. Meanwhile Dragons have drow, duergar, kobolds, mindflayers, etc. to trade with not to mention, I'm pretty sure a dragon has plenty of wealth that an evil/neutral-aligned kingdom wouldn't turn down. In general, in a world where Dragons are the most powerful beings of massive wealth, magical power and prowess, I have a hard time seeing Dragons having worse magic item access than humanoids.


Regarding the focused double breath, you can also ready an action for full Protection From Energy on anyone they target with both breaths.

Aye, readied actions are fine and those will buy a turn or two, but it's a touch spell and I'm not sure how good an idea it is to remain all within touch range while Dragons are double breathing at you.


Again, you have made a perfect demonstration of our differences- and I just think you're too far in the deep end. This is a party with 6 members and only one of them is an arcanist while the rest are mostly fighters. Their line of optimization is so far back that your "basic logic" is actually hardcore char-op (or rather, monster-op), at least by my estimate.

In my books, basic level is every monster having reasonable feats, reasonable skills, reasonable spells, equipment for their treasure, reasonable tactics, reasonable ecology/organisation, and a reasonable existence. I don't see why monsters should award any equipment if they don't use any outside cases like Tarrasque having eaten a well-equipped character. Of course monsters and dungeons can also contain things they don't use but in a world saturated with Wands of Cure Light Wounds/Lesser Vigor (or in general, low-level cheap magic items; it gets exponentially harder to find items/someone to make them as the caster level requirements go up due to simple demographics), I'd expect most monsters with significant wealth to have some too.



Incorrect: the DMG does not recommend a status quo world, it merely states that as a possible mode of play, and further warns that the players need to be informed if that is the how the game will be played.

Additionally, the CR system makes it very clear that overleveled monsters are extremely lethal; DMG p49, "By contrast, an encounter of even one or two levels higher than the party level might tax the PCs to their limit. . . Remember that when the EL is higher than the party level, the chance for PC fatality rises dramatically."

The difficulty table does recommend a whopping 20% total of ELs above the party level, but that's still ELs. Not CRs. And the obvious problem with monsters of higher CRs is that, as you pointed out yourself, they have dramatically higher chances of just one-shotting/rounding a PC (which then decreases the chance the survivors can win or even drag away the body, begin death spiral). There is no given standard lethality, but monsters of appropriate CR very rarely have the ability to actually one-round people, usually at best having a save or die or grapple that can be negated with an immunity buff carried by the Cleric. You say that they'll probably have a couple deaths like that's acceptable, but I say no, most people don't find that acceptable as a default. The party should not be given challenges that will almost certainly result in character death, unless they specifically opted into that sort of game.

The top two given difficulties are "one PC might very well die," and "the PCs should run." One might very well die is not 1-2 will certainly die. And nothing there says that the party is expected to run, then turn around and fight and win the encounter they were expected to run from.

Furthermore, nothing in the CR system guarantees monster-op. Simply put, the practice of slapping Mage Armor and Shield (and Scintillating Scales) on every dragon massively changes their statblocks. Giving them a lair full of traps and advantageous terrain has nothing to do with their CR. Taking monsters that are already above the party level and thus extra lethal, and making them more lethal, the effects should be obvious. But then the people who op their dragons usually op all their other monsters too, which makes their position more obvious.

Players should also have a reasonable expectation that their combat mechanics can overcome foes in combat. If you need to suddenly bust out a level of optimization you weren't previously using, that's. . . not cool. Especially for the majority of this party that can't just magically change their spells and pick up an underpriced caster item and do the very thing balance snobs say is terrible about the game.

As such, I actually find the idea of buying several scrolls and pulling a "burn down the house around them" type of ploy to be far *less* disruptive. By explicitly purchasing effects that would actually be level appropriate for the CR of the foe and using a simple strategy of cornering and dogpiling them with more no-miss consumables, the focus becomes "hey look what we came up with to deal with something above our level," rather than "wow turns out we could have been fighting things way above our level the whole time."

Aside from your lack of mention of nets and alchemicals (really, I don't see how Solid Fog is going to make such a huge difference, they'd be better off just turning it against you by waiting inside), our "plans" aren't really that different. Except you seem to think their lower op mostly fighter party can totally carve up those dragons if you just layer enough buffs and lockdown or use the one-shot spell (even though I'm pretty sure if the thread was reversed you'd list all those things the dragons apparently should be doing as fool-proof against the party, since that's what usually happens when a DM asks why their dragons aren't winning). While I think the DM failed to run the numbers and set them a combat challenge they can't actually meet* (hence why I'd have liked it if the OP could have given us more stats so we're not just arguing past each other on the point), and thus it's time to side-quest/consumable bomb/call the DM out on it. And you particularly hate the idea of non-archer builds shooting bows.

*And for a DM making up things like "+6 to hit for getting on its back," I think not having run the numbers is a lot more likely than them having already planned out an elaborate lair backstory. Worst would be all three being true.

DMG however suggests that 5% of encounters should be overwhelming. And yes, Dragons have Sorcerer casting so them picking Sorcerer-spells that augment their combat prowess is a part of their CR; why else would they have said casting ability in the first place? To cast 1d4+1 Magic Missiles?

And if they wait inside the Solid Fog, you can easily encircle, enter, kill. That's something you can't do if they're flying around freely. I think that's very certainly utility


For sneak attack you'd need to be in 30' anyway, and for the rest: Large dragon line breath weapon is only 80'. Aside from various magical ways to increase throwing range, oils/scrolls/wands of Launch Item will be in range if the dragons try to use their vaunted breath (or Enlarged Launch item if you need 200' for some reason). We both seem to be assuming that the dragons can be made to enter melee, regardless of how it's done, so why would the range be a problem? I mean, if the dragons were *really* trying, they'd drop rocks from 1,000' in the air on targets their spies already told them would be there.

Uh, unless they have instant communication it's pretty impossible to hit anyone moving with rocks from 1000' and rather impractical to carry a sufficient number of rocks to try in the first place.

And the point is figuring out how to force the dragons to enter melee and to prevent them from escaping; the questions the OP asked.


As for mooks: well if the dragon can hire people, why can't the PCs? Mercs are horrendously underpriced and all you need is hands to throw. The main problem is the dragonfear, which is actually well designed at doing what it's supposed to and crushing non-adventurer armies, so you need either 5HD mooks or a nice heroes' feast.[

Of course, but I'd wager a guess a lot fewer people are eager to go on a double dragon hunt than dragon-worshipping creatures fighting for dragons. The latter are fanatic by default while the former are like uneasy at best; you can diplomancy helpers of course but if they get caught in the breath I don't see them staying for long. But yes, as I said, the PCs should definitely go get all the help they can get.



Back to my "burn the house down around them plan:" assuming they live in a cave you could pull the old smoking them out trick. But they'll just hide in the water with their water breathing? Great, means they're standing still so you can dump the roof on them, while the party straps waterskins to their faces and Water Breathings their own way in. Or they run away, which is also fine, 'cause then you loot the cave. And dragons usually try to take their loot back, yes? Letting you choose the next battlefield.

That's a great plan if you can get in position, find their lair, etc. This is the information war aspect; you need to get there without them figuring you out and locate the lair and then such a plan can be enacted. I'm not certain it's that easily done, especially if they have spies as you suggested earlier.

[Fizban]

Aye, readied actions are fine and those will buy a turn or two, but it's a touch spell and I'm not sure how good an idea it is to remain all within touch range while Dragons are double breathing at you.
Depends on how good the DM is at aiming lines- if they're not aiming directly at intersections to get the 10' square then bunching up is just fine. Those with high reflex saves don't need the PfE in reach. And uh, 1d4 rounds of cooldown.


DMG however suggests that 5% of encounters should be overwhelming.
I already acknowledged that? The description of overwhelming in the text is that the characters should run. Not that they are expected to win or even fight. Ergo, expecting them to fight this fight is bogus, unless the party is way stronger than I think.


And if they wait inside the Solid Fog, you can easily encircle, enter, kill. That's something you can't do if they're flying around freely. I think that's very certainly utility
Still not sure what sort of characters you're expecting that can easily kill these in melee, especially if they've entered the Solid Fog to eat the same penalties. And hey, if these are reasonably prepared dragons, shouldn't they have anti-solid fog measures? Scroll of Gust of Wind, Tempest Breath and Wingstorm remove it, Hover just lets you Hover out of it. . . And if you're trapping them in Solid Fog, how exactly are you getting line of sight to dispel the AC buffs they can just throw back up to nope out your melee guys?


Uh, unless they have instant communication it's pretty impossible to hit anyone moving with rocks from 1000' and rather impractical to carry a sufficient number of rocks to try in the first place.
Heroes of Battle: hitting a target square is AC 5, -4 improvised, -4 poor. No penalties given for range increment*, but even at -10 the dragon's BAB +19 would let them hit on a 5. Past 250' its considered indirect fire, which doesn't seem to mean anything since the indirect section only refers to arrow volleys and is based on range increments. No action is given, but dropping an object is free. A creature in the square gets reflex 15 to negate. Damage refers to DMG, for which a 1-5lb rock falling 1,000' will deal 14d6 damage- the only reason we need 1,000' is to outrange Fireballs, 1,500 to outrange archers with Guided Shot- but Guided Shot spam without a Ranger is unlikely, and Fireballs fail 50/50 vs SR for not enough damage from not enough casters.

So yeah, if the dragons use "reasonable" tactics, they can just dump small bags of rocks from above. The web article for falling speeds on non-flyers says freefall is 500' in the first round and 1,000' per round thereafter, so maybe drop the rocks from 500' instead, at which point the only way for them to scatter is if the DM invokes the "simultaneous actions" rules to let them. From 250' the rock would then hit before half the round is over, making that ruling harder to justify, still dealing 3d6 (or as much as you , and apparently without risk since you don't consider non-archers a threat. Or just empty the whole bag from on high and accept the splash deviation since you're getting dozens of hits over the area. Unless the DM decides emptying the bag hits the same square, in which case you dive and dump the whole bag on one square which gets annihilated.

*Edit: d'oh, there's the range increment, 50' it says. Presuambly as thrown weapon, since 5x50= the 250 at which they become "indirect fire." Which still doesn't mean anything? Eh, make a 600' dive down at 45* (for 300' vertical) to 250', 7d6 damage on the 1lb rock. And a dragon can do this literally all day.


That's a great plan if you can get in position, find their lair, etc. This is the information war aspect; you need to get there without them figuring you out and locate the lair and then such a plan can be enacted. I'm not certain it's that easily done, especially if they have spies as you suggested earlier.
Except my spy suggestion was sarcasm, as it's part of the lol dragons are perfect and already countered everything in their backstory expectation, all of which is additional power granted them by the DM rather than their given statblock and CR. Dropping rocks until the PCs are dead? Not part of their statblock, just DM fiat for an entirely reasonable, realistic tactic that the PCs simply cannot counter, backed up by what else? More DM fiat that they have spies (or scouts, or hired diviners, or magical-swamp-sense) assuming the dragons will just find them from the air whenever it's most convenient for bombing.

There is no information war. They fought the dragons, lost, and ran. So assuming they have the cash to do the job, they boogie on back to a metropolis (hopefully by hired Teleport or at least Phantom Steed), and grab the scrolls and supplies they need in a couple days, 'couple weeks tops by Forgotten Realms standards. Track them to their lair by whatever means, maybe Locate Creature sweep or Divination if necessary, then hit the lair. And if it turns out the DM has given them both dragons they can't beat in a straight fight and a lair they can't be backed into and defeated by cheesier methods, abandon quest until it's actually doable.


Ah, found a use for Summon Monster- if you can't hire people to throw flasks, summon some good 'ol celestial monkeys. Or maybe Lemurs, they'd be immune to fire if you needed them to stand in the Scalding Mud without protection.

[Eldariel]

Depends on how good the DM is at aiming lines- if they're not aiming directly at intersections to get the 10' square then bunching up is just fine. Those with high reflex saves don't need the PfE in reach. And uh, 1d4 rounds of cooldown.

Even high Reflex-save types will fail that save a significant number of times. And PfE needs to be castable at anyone with a poor one; as a touch range spell all the potential targets need to be in range. If even two are hit, only one can be PfEd and it would be inconvenient indeed to lose the PfE casters due to this (which would likely be the best case scenario as at least two are going to be hit every breath


I already acknowledged that? The description of overwhelming in the text is that the characters should run. Not that they are expected to win or even fight. Ergo, expecting them to fight this fight is bogus, unless the party is way stronger than I think.

A level 8 party of 8 is equivalent to a party of 4 level 10s. Adult Black Dragon is only CR 11 so two of them is a mere EL 13, which for a party level 10 is not even the hardest degree fight they'd be expected to take (EL14 would be a 50/50). Mature Adults are a different beast entirely, however. And even in the overwhelming fights, once you run, you need a strategic contingency plan on how to deal with the enemy in case there's a reasonable chance they're coming after you. Remember, environmental effects, outside assistance, etc. can tip the scales to lower the EL.


Still not sure what sort of characters you're expecting that can easily kill these in melee, especially if they've entered the Solid Fog to eat the same penalties. And hey, if these are reasonably prepared dragons, shouldn't they have anti-solid fog measures? Scroll of Gust of Wind, Tempest Breath and Wingstorm remove it, Hover just lets you Hover out of it. . . And if you're trapping them in Solid Fog, how exactly are you getting line of sight to dispel the AC buffs they can just throw back up to nope out your melee guys?

Solid Fog is very specific unless the world is full of 7th level or higher Wizards, but yes, of course they might. That said, preparing for a specific spell seems less likely than preparing for general tactics. And even if they have a countermeasure, just one-two rounds of them being locked in place should be enough to get in. This party can only bash so it needs to get in there to bash if it's to have a chance.


Heroes of Battle: hitting a target square is AC 5, -4 improvised, -4 poor. No penalties given for range increment*, but even at -10 the dragon's BAB +19 would let them hit on a 5. Past 250' its considered indirect fire, which doesn't seem to mean anything since the indirect section only refers to arrow volleys and is based on range increments. No action is given, but dropping an object is free. A creature in the square gets reflex 15 to negate. Damage refers to DMG, for which a 1-5lb rock falling 1,000' will deal 14d6 damage- the only reason we need 1,000' is to outrange Fireballs, 1,500 to outrange archers with Guided Shot- but Guided Shot spam without a Ranger is unlikely, and Fireballs fail 50/50 vs SR for not enough damage from not enough casters.

So yeah, if the dragons use "reasonable" tactics, they can just dump small bags of rocks from above. The web article for falling speeds on non-flyers says freefall is 500' in the first round and 1,000' per round thereafter, so maybe drop the rocks from 500' instead, at which point the only way for them to scatter is if the DM invokes the "simultaneous actions" rules to let them. From 250' the rock would then hit before half the round is over, making that ruling harder to justify, still dealing 3d6 (or as much as you , and apparently without risk since you don't consider non-archers a threat. Or just empty the whole bag from on high and accept the splash deviation since you're getting dozens of hits over the area. Unless the DM decides emptying the bag hits the same square, in which case you dive and dump the whole bag on one square which gets annihilated.

*Edit: d'oh, there's the range increment, 50' it says. Presuambly as thrown weapon, since 5x50= the 250 at which they become "indirect fire." Which still doesn't mean anything? Eh, make a 600' dive down at 45* (for 300' vertical) to 250', 7d6 damage on the 1lb rock. And a dragon can do this literally all day.

Well, they need to see their targets and again, a single spell that blocks their movement really ruins their day.


Except my spy suggestion was sarcasm, as it's part of the lol dragons are perfect and already countered everything in their backstory expectation, all of which is additional power granted them by the DM rather than their given statblock and CR. Dropping rocks until the PCs are dead? Not part of their statblock, just DM fiat for an entirely reasonable, realistic tactic that the PCs simply cannot counter, backed up by what else? More DM fiat that they have spies (or scouts, or hired diviners, or magical-swamp-sense) assuming the dragons will just find them from the air whenever it's most convenient for bombing.

There is no information war. They fought the dragons, lost, and ran. So assuming they have the cash to do the job, they boogie on back to a metropolis (hopefully by hired Teleport or at least Phantom Steed), and grab the scrolls and supplies they need in a couple days, 'couple weeks tops by Forgotten Realms standards. Track them to their lair by whatever means, maybe Locate Creature sweep or Divination if necessary, then hit the lair. And if it turns out the DM has given them both dragons they can't beat in a straight fight and a lair they can't be backed into and defeated by cheesier methods, abandon quest until it's actually doable.

There's information war if they approach the lair. If they choose to hightail it to a metropolis, good luck finding said dragons ever again. Locate Creature is terrible at this kind of a job; you get the general direction, nothing more, and it only has a range of few hundred feet. It's not enough for Teleport or even a Scry. Scrying is better but requires them failing a save. But yes, hiring help is a good idea, trying to find the lair out in the cold with no support is not.

And the Dragons in game are not just the statblock and CR; everything in the game has an organisation or ecology of some sort. Touch one part, it inevitably influences all the others. Enemies don't just run around carrying stuff for players to loot; creatures have stuff, use stuff, acquire stuff, have allies, have enemies, acquire alliances, acquire information, etc. and far as that concerns the players it becomes on-screen. No campaign world is just a bunch of isolate CRs running around. They're all running around for a reason, which gives them strengths and weaknesses that can and should be avoided and exploited as necessary.



Ah, found a use for Summon Monster- if you can't hire people to throw flasks, summon some good 'ol celestial monkeys. Or maybe Lemurs, they'd be immune to fire if you needed them to stand in the Scalding Mud without protection.

Yes, minions are always convenient.

[Fizban]

I'm getting fairly exhausted on the topic and the OP doesn't seem to be coming back, but you've said some things that annoy me-

A level 8 party of 8 is equivalent to a party of 4 level 10s.
No, the DMG does not give any precise math for how much more powerful of monsters a larger party may be able to fight. The CR->EL table is for CR and EL, not party levels. After the general note at the beginning (where it says this is accounted for by reduced xp, not any adjustment to difficulty rating) it only ever refers to average party level (which does not go up with more party members). The EL of two adults is 5 higher than the average party level, and throwing it at them without very carefully running the numbers and best/worst scenarios is bogus.


Well, they need to see their targets and again, a single spell that blocks their movement really ruins their day.
Solid Fog's range is Medium, can't hit high air bombers, can't even hit a swoop to 250' without Enlarge (as if anyone ever took it). Should I run the numbers on how many bags of rocks it will take to kill the PCs vs how many they can carry? How far the PCs can run in the hit points they have? This seems to be a tactic you simply aren't considering, which is why I'm pressing it as an example of why personalized expectations of what is "reasonable" for monsters to be optimized for, fail.


There's information war if they approach the lair. If they choose to hightail it to a metropolis, good luck finding said dragons ever again. Locate Creature is terrible at this kind of a job; you get the general direction, nothing more, and it only has a range of few hundred feet.
Yeah, a range of several hundred feet, 720' at cl8, nearly a quarter mile in diameter, and lasting more than an hour. No mention of Divination, which depending on cheese/ DM use could provide anything from exact coordinates to just telling you where the DM wants you to go. The party is of sufficient level and the dragons of insufficient enough magic that they will be found. The party is not of a level where they can sufficiently hide their movements overland. The only reason the adventurers wouldn't find the lair is because the DM has explicitly taken measures beyond the dragon's capabilities to hide it, and the only reason the adventurers don't die to falling rocks on the way there is because the DM has "explicitly" decided not to use the "reasonable" tactic.

You seem to be assuming these dragons, whose activity has presumably annoyed someone enough to call in the adventurers, are going to run away forever. So what, now the party is expected to fight an overleveled encounter which is explicitly fleeing them and will be lost forever? They have a lair, which is nearby unless the dragons are days from home. If they ever go outside they can be seen flying from miles away. So what if it takes a few days of scanning likely terrain features looking for a lair: unless the DM is having them drop rocks on you, you'll either find their lair or they'll engage close enough for you to deal with them, assuming you can actually deal with them in the open.

You can't have it both ways trying to say that the dragons can totally be found and engaged in melee, but can't be found and will vanish forever if the PCs don't immediately chase after them. So by your standards of reasonable, the lair is a deathtrap which can't be found and the PCs cannot reach it without being detected and the dragons would just run away if they tried and then they. . . somehow get the dragons close enough to be Solid Fog'd, throw down a million buffs, a couple characters die and the rest somehow win because the melee? Do you see how ridiculously perfect these dragons are in one frame and then inept in the next? If they're perfect, you're not killing them because you're dead. But instead they apparently have just the specific ineptitude that you think is reasonable, while covering everything else.

There is nothing inherently worse (or better) about my burn 'em out plan than your somehow beat them in the open plan. Mine relies less on their innate builds and on the DM not running lol perfect dragons, and yours relies more on big numbers and. . . the DM not running lol perfect dragons.


And the Dragons in game are not just the statblock and CR; everything in the game has an organization or ecology of some sort. Touch one part, it inevitably influences all the others. Enemies don't just run around carrying stuff for players to loot; creatures have stuff, use stuff, acquire stuff, have allies, have enemies, acquire alliances, acquire information, etc. and far as that concerns the players it becomes on-screen. No campaign world is just a bunch of isolate CRs running around. They're all running around for a reason, which gives them strengths and weaknesses that can and should be avoided and exploited as necessary.
Organizations and ecology which are usually part of the monster entry. What does MM1 say about dragons? They build up hoards and are loathe to leave them for long, only venturing out to patrol the area or get food. Organization is solitary, clutch, pair, or family. Black dragons lair in swampy caves. Treasure is triple standard, and while the DMG does allow for custom treasures, random treasures are presented first as the obvious default. (Does Draconomicon overrun a bunch of this? Probably, but hey that's power creep).

You can make a big talk about how everything influences everything else, but it doesn't. That's a DM choice. The DM can choose to take some stuff and alter stuff based on that stuff and so on. The DM can just as easily not do that, and not fall into the trap of char-oping their encounters. The MM says that dragons hoard treasure, not perfectly tuned magic items. It says they are usually solitary creatures, not universally worshiped by tribal humanoids. It says they lair in caves, not trap-laden fortresses. There is no reason a dragon encounter must include any of that. Oh so they're smart, great, so does that mean smart people only take perfectly optimized actions and make perfectly optimized purchases? No, smart people are mostly the same as average people: they buy junk food and luxuries and spend free time relaxing and make poor decisions all the time. A dragon is the equivalent of someone who already owns a flying tank that can never be stolen, how much would such a person spend on self-defense? Most of the time, not very much.

Running monsters as they are presented is in fact not a sin. What happens when you run a monster as presented is that you get an encounter of the expected difficulty, rather than something the DM decided "makes sense." When "reasonable" is nothing but power ups and the monster was already overleveled, that's not a good encounter.

[Eldariel]

No, the DMG does not give any precise math for how much more powerful of monsters a larger party may be able to fight. The CR->EL table is for CR and EL, not party levels. After the general note at the beginning (where it says this is accounted for by reduced xp, not any adjustment to difficulty rating) it only ever refers to average party level (which does not go up with more party members). The EL of two adults is 5 higher than the average party level, and throwing it at them without very carefully running the numbers and best/worst scenarios is bogus.

And yet it's the same math. If you have one party of 4, an adult black is a fine match-up. Then there's one adult black for each party of 4. A party twice the size would be twice the EL; there's no reason you can't extend the same consideration to the monsters. And indeed, this isn't a single CR 14, which would be the high CR problem. It's just an increased number of CR 11s, which is pretty much a textbook case of doing precisely what the system expects for 8 characters.


Solid Fog's range is Medium, can't hit high air bombers, can't even hit a swoop to 250' without Enlarge (as if anyone ever took it). Should I run the numbers on how many bags of rocks it will take to kill the PCs vs how many they can carry? How far the PCs can run in the hit points they have? This seems to be a tactic you simply aren't considering, which is why I'm pressing it as an example of why personalized expectations of what is "reasonable" for monsters to be optimized for, fail.

It's not a tactic I'm considering because, well, it's just not very efficient and dragons carrying a sufficient number of rocks to do enough damage to actually get something done seems unlikely. Rocks with no abilities are just pretty bad. As such, yeah, they could probably divebomb out of range with rocks and run once they run out of rocks but they'd never actually kill anyone with that.


Yeah, a range of several hundred feet, 720' at cl8, nearly a quarter mile in diameter, and lasting more than an hour. No mention of Divination, which depending on cheese/ DM use could provide anything from exact coordinates to just telling you where the DM wants you to go.

But see, it's again up to the party how to tackle what the DM has given you. It's not the DM's job to tell you where to go. It's the DM's job to tell you what happens with what you do. And yeah, it lasts quarter of a mile and...how accurate an idea do you have of where to look for creatures flying ~300' a round again? Even if you did get the right area, it's very likely you'd just miss them. Wilderness is big.


The party is of sufficient level and the dragons of insufficient enough magic that they will be found. The party is not of a level where they can sufficiently hide their movements overland. The only reason the adventurers wouldn't find the lair is because the DM has explicitly taken measures beyond the dragon's capabilities to hide it, and the only reason the adventurers don't die to falling rocks on the way there is because the DM has "explicitly" decided not to use the "reasonable" tactic.[/quoye]

Dragon lairs don't tend to come with paths and neon signs. Dragons fly which makes tracking them tricky and they fly really fast which makes tracking them extra tricky. And lairs, like castles, buildings, etc. tend to be something you invest in and use your resources to get external helpers to improve. It's not something you throw up over night. These dragons are over a 100 years old. They probably have had the time to craft up a fairly well-defended place for their valuables and sleep if they're still alive.

[QUOTE=Fizban;23218456]You seem to be assuming these dragons, whose activity has presumably annoyed someone enough to call in the adventurers, are going to run away forever. So what, now the party is expected to fight an overleveled encounter which is explicitly fleeing them and will be lost forever? They have a lair, which is nearby unless the dragons are days from home. If they ever go outside they can be seen flying from miles away. So what if it takes a few days of scanning likely terrain features looking for a lair: unless the DM is having them drop rocks on you, you'll either find their lair or they'll engage close enough for you to deal with them, assuming you can actually deal with them in the open.

I'm expecting that finding the lair is harder than finding the dragons. Of course, it depends on the circumstances but it doesn't sound like the players have ever been anywhere near the lair. I expect the party will probably engage them again in the open, and one side will retreat if situation looks bad and they're able to. That's literally what the OP says the DM typically does and that's how the first encounter ended.


You can't have it both ways trying to say that the dragons can totally be found and engaged in melee, but can't be found and will vanish forever if the PCs don't immediately chase after them. So by your standards of reasonable, the lair is a deathtrap which can't be found and the PCs cannot reach it without being detected and the dragons would just run away if they tried and then they. . . somehow get the dragons close enough to be Solid Fog'd, throw down a million buffs, a couple characters die and the rest somehow win because the melee? Do you see how ridiculously perfect these dragons are in one frame and then inept in the next? If they're perfect, you're not killing them because you're dead. But instead they apparently have just the specific ineptitude that you think is reasonable, while covering everything else.

This is very much so an absurd conclusion. I haven't expected that the dragons be perfect. I'm pointing out the obvious flaws that should be exploited based on the information given on the DM and the game, and the logical deductions therefrom.


There is nothing inherently worse (or better) about my burn 'em out plan than your somehow beat them in the open plan. Mine relies less on their innate builds and on the DM not running lol perfect dragons, and yours relies more on big numbers and. . . the DM not running lol perfect dragons.

Okay, look, what do you mean by "perfect dragons"? I don't seem to be assuming any more perfect dragons than you do, I'm only aware of the fact that you're likely to face them before you find their lair if you're close enough (or "the probability increases constantly as you get closer and given you have no way to locate said lair, you'll probably spend a long while looking so you'll run into the dragons sooner or later") but that finding them otherwise seems unlikely; they seem to be better at finding the party than the party is at finding them based on information given thus far.

And you keep pretending there's some "innate build". Yet, dragons are monsters that come out of the gate with no feats and spells selected and a massive treasure, and supposedly a given CR. Thus said CR should encompass any feats, spells, and items they happen to get. An Adult Black Dragon with optimised everything is just as much a CR11 as an Adult Black Dragon with no useful spells and all feats being Toughness. That's just the hilarity of the CR system and why you shouldn't take it too seriously.


Organizations and ecology which are usually part of the monster entry. What does MM1 say about dragons? They build up hoards and are loathe to leave them for long, only venturing out to patrol the area or get food. Organization is solitary, clutch, pair, or family. Black dragons lair in swampy caves. Treasure is triple standard, and while the DMG does allow for custom treasures, random treasures are presented first as the obvious default. (Does Draconomicon overrun a bunch of this? Probably, but hey that's power creep).

Correct. Organisation and ecology far as the creature's networks, ties, influence, etc. is all campaign world dependent though and can't be accounted for as such.


You can make a big talk about how everything influences everything else, but it doesn't. That's a DM choice. The DM can choose to take some stuff and alter stuff based on that stuff and so on. The DM can just as easily not do that, and not fall into the trap of char-oping their encounters. The MM says that dragons hoard treasure, not perfectly tuned magic items. It says they are usually solitary creatures, not universally worshiped by tribal humanoids. It says they lair in caves, not trap-laden fortresses. There is no reason a dragon encounter must include any of that. Oh so they're smart, great, so does that mean smart people only take perfectly optimized actions and make perfectly optimized purchases? No, smart people are mostly the same as average people: they buy junk food and luxuries and spend free time relaxing and make poor decisions all the time. A dragon is the equivalent of someone who already owns a flying tank that can never be stolen, how much would such a person spend on self-defense? Most of the time, not very much.

Running monsters as they are presented is in fact not a sin. What happens when you run a monster as presented is that you get an encounter of the expected difficulty, rather than something the DM decided "makes sense." When "reasonable" is nothing but power ups and the monster was already overleveled, that's not a good encounter.

Your analogy fails when you consider the worlds these live in; smart people would invest more in defense if they expected to fight dozens, hundreds, or thousands of fights in their life, which is not what world we live in. Dragons have to take care of their treasure themselves and as you rightly pointed out, they're very careful and jealous keepers. How would it make sense for them not to invest in defense? Yes, they'll certainly have frivolous things too but I'd bet you they'll first take care of the most important business, trying to make their lair as defensible as possible. An encounter that favours a creature is an encounter level higher so presumably a swamp cave lair fight with the black dragons would be EL14 plus whatever extra threats are present.

And yes, a DM can run a world where everything doesn't influence everything but that's essentially a dead world, a sequence of clips for the PCs to view. There's nothing inherently wrong with that except that it tends to just look like a movie the DM is showing where the players are merely spectators with little option to influence the course of the whole. Things being interconnected is crucial for the players' agency, because that allows the players to actually influence the game world too by touching certain wires out of that interconnected whole.

[Fizban]

And yet it's the same math. If you have one party of 4, an adult black is a fine match-up. Then there's one adult black for each party of 4. A party twice the size would be twice the EL; there's no reason you can't extend the same consideration to the monsters.
Now you're just reading it backwards.


And indeed, this isn't a single CR 14, which would be the high CR problem. It's just an increased number of CR 11s, which is pretty much a textbook case of doing precisely what the system expects for 8 characters.
An increased number of things that were already 3 CR over. I was all ready to circle back to the fact that difficulty rating in number of expected deaths doesn't change when you increase the size of the party and make an example of a wildly oversized party with a "normal" matchup where one member could easily be focus fired to death, but there doesn't seem to be much point. More characters of lower level are not equivalent to higher level characters, and it's funny how people will recognize this is if you make a point of it using spells but not when it comes to encounter design.


It's not a tactic I'm considering because, well, it's just not very efficient and dragons carrying a sufficient number of rocks to do enough damage to actually get something done seems unlikely. Rocks with no abilities are just pretty bad. As such, yeah, they could probably divebomb out of range with rocks and run once they run out of rocks but they'd never actually kill anyone with that.
If you don't find 7d6 per 1lb rock multiplied by oh, 100 rocks (1/6 of an adult black dragon's light load, they can carry bags you know) with no risk of counterattack efficient, don't think that could kill a character, then I don't know what you would find efficient or lethal. 24 damage per dive, once every four rounds or so, and if reflex negates we've got 99 more where that came from. Dumping the bag results in. . . at 5 range increments that's a 55' diameter with 61 squares in it if I'm counting right, each character within gets hit by an average of 1.6 rocks for 7d6, ref 15 negates. Not an insta-wipe from a single run, but come on. Drop it to 1 rock per square if you want rougher rock sizes, increase to six bags times two dragons, 12*24= 288 damage, reduced by their average reflex saves.

From carrying up some backs of rocks. And once the party leaves they can just gather them up again. hey, that's a good idea for a 1st level spell: Unseen Servant, because why would a dragon do menial labor. And it's not even a combat amplifier, until you decide to bag up some rocks anyway.

Dumping bags of rocks from high up requires no character build, no resources. It is the most obvious air-to-ground tactic and would the very first thing an "intelligent being" with the flight ability would consider using against a foe that could potentially harm them. By your own logic, this should be their go-to tactic, and it's one the PCs have no hope of beating. So maybe we shouldn't be assuming the dragons are using combat mechanics outside their given statistics, like dumping bags of rocks or paying people to trap their lairs?


But see, it's again up to the party how to tackle what the DM has given you. It's not the DM's job to tell you where to go. It's the DM's job to tell you what happens with what you do. And yeah, it lasts quarter of a mile and...how accurate an idea do you have of where to look for creatures flying ~300' a round again? Even if you did get the right area, it's very likely you'd just miss them. Wilderness is big.
So the party tackles it by casting Divination and the DM does. . . what? The party tackles it by heading out in the direction the dragons came from while watching the skies and the DM does. . . what? You don't seem to get the fact that dragons are highly visible in the air, and Locate Creature is for finding them after you've seen them land. Oh look, a great big black flying thing just dove down over near that hill, I wonder if we should go look for a lair there? Oh no, it flies. . . about the same speed as actual real-life birds, if it's hustling. As ever, the entire point of Divination is that it's a great big hammer the PCs can use to fish for what they're supposed to do next.


This is very much so an absurd conclusion. I haven't expected that the dragons be perfect. I'm pointing out the obvious flaws that should be exploited based on the information given on the DM and the game, and the logical deductions therefrom.
What obvious flaws? The only obvious flaw you seem to acknowledge is that they will at some point re-engage the PCs at close range in the open. Despite the fact that nothing in their description gives them the ability to have a perfectly hidden trap-filled lair, and their description specifically says they spend most of their time there with the stuff they jealously guard, somehow this apparently isn't a flaw.


Okay, look, what do you mean by "perfect dragons"? I don't seem to be assuming any more perfect dragons than you do
Let's see. In order to actually get the dragons to close to melee since they have no reason to actually do so, I suggested pressuring them with bows, to which you respond that Mage Armor and Shield Make their AC so high they'll never be hit- dramatically increasing their AC by optimizing them, even though the OP had already given a non-Mage Armored AC. When I point out that any amount of damage builds up over time, you assume that they will have not only healing items, but sufficient healing items that they apparently must be killed in a single combat or they'll come back at full strength no matter what, financed out of their treasure. You assume that they will have a trapped lair which will swing any fight in their favor, despite the fact that they have no standard trapmaking abilities, and those they could gain are poor, because apparently they'll just backstory it out of their treasure again. Instead of standing by the lair being a deathtrap after I pointed this out, you then pivot to saying that if the party leaves to get gear to help them corner and kill the dragons in their lair, "good luck finding said dragons ever again."

So the dragons are optimized both within and outside of their given statistics and if the party doesn't kill them immediately in the field they will apparently never find them again. Your own responses. Essentially every time I've suggested a tactic you don't like, it's because your idea of reasonable dragons has already perfectly prepared for it. You think it's more likely the DM will have pre-written and be running the dragons the same way you would, and you know what? That's entirely possible, since the most vocal people on the dnd boards are the ones that want to optimize everything forever. My argument is that running dragons that way drastically increases their lethality, which when they were already overleveled, is bogus.


I'm only aware of the fact that you're likely to face them before you find their lair if you're close enough (or "the probability increases constantly as you get closer and given you have no way to locate said lair, you'll probably spend a long while looking so you'll run into the dragons sooner or later") but that finding them otherwise seems unlikely; they seem to be better at finding the party than the party is at finding them based on information given thus far.
To which we return to the fairness, in that I still don't think the given party (level 8, mostly fighters with one confirmed rogue and wizard, and two NPC clerics of indeterminate level) can actually kill these dragons in the field.


And you keep pretending there's some "innate build". Yet, dragons are monsters that come out of the gate with no feats and spells selected and a massive treasure, and supposedly a given CR. Thus said CR should encompass any feats, spells, and items they happen to get. An Adult Black Dragon with optimised everything is just as much a CR11 as an Adult Black Dragon with no useful spells and all feats being Toughness. That's just the hilarity of the CR system and why you shouldn't take it too seriously.
Bolded for emphasis on the wrong. It takes little effort to compare dragons to other creatures of the same CR and find that their AC and attack output is already comparable- thus, obviously, selections outside the norm which make them significantly more deadly make them more powerful than their CR already accounts for. MM1 does give standard feat picks that dragons like " Dragons favor Alertness, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Snatch, Weapon Focus (claw or bite), Wingover, and any metamagic feat that is available and useful to sorcerers." Dragons with those feats, or feats of similar power, are on CR. All that Draconomicon content? Hey, it's a splatbook of power content for dragons so you can make them more powerful. Mage Armor and Shield on every dragon? Pretty obvious what that does when their AC was already fine and their hit points high.

The hilarity of the CR system is indeed that people expect char-oping their monsters to not affect it. Dragons are done a large disservice by the fact that they're variable rather than having set statblocks, because it's just one more set of variables that makes people judge them completely differently.


Your analogy fails when you consider the worlds these live in; smart people would invest more in defense if they expected to fight dozens, hundreds, or thousands of fights in their life, which is not what world we live in.
Who says that's the world dragons live in either?


Dragons have to take care of their treasure themselves and as you rightly pointed out, they're very careful and jealous keepers. How would it make sense for them not to invest in defense? Yes, they'll certainly have frivolous things too but I'd bet you they'll first take care of the most important business, trying to make their lair as defensible as possible.
It's a living tank, what more defense does it need? A dragon in a fortified lair is a dragon in a fortified lair, not a dragon. Your entire premise is predicated on the assumption that dragons will go out and spend their treasure to optimize and fortify, when it says they hoard treasure. So you like dragons that do that, which are more powerful as a result. Doesn't make it any more reasonable than running them as greedy, prideful, slothful monsters, as they are also commonly portrayed. There are dragons on random encounter tables, does that mean if you roll one it suddenly has to retroactively have a bunch of perfect gear and an impenetrable lair? No, it's just some dragon. In fact, if we want to go the "published" route, I've seen far fewer dragons with custom gear and trap-filled lairs than just. . . dragons. Once again the fact that you have to "build" a dragon rather than run it straight out of the book means that every single time someone makes a claim about how competent dragons are, it's entirely based on how they personally build characters and monsters.

Incidentally, I think it's pretty likely the OP's DM is running the pre-made statlblocks straight out of Draconomicon- a bunch of them including the adult black have Shape Breath, which explains the cone they mentioned (and makes surviving them in close combat even less likely or fair). Said dragon does have AC boosters, but nothing else particularly crazy, and though their biographical description is probably not being used the adult does not contain mention of minions or worshippers. Of interest is the typical lair-while many (but not all) of the other dragons do have heavily worked buildings, the black dragon lair is maybe the second simplest, a few tunnels that all lead to a main cave with no entrances marked hidden or mazes. in fact, none of them seem to have any traps marked at all, as would be appropriate for an encounter that is about the dragon rather than what sort of lair the DM would build with Xgp.


An encounter that favours a creature is an encounter level higher
No, an encounter that favors a creature rewards more xp based on how much more difficult the DM thinks the encounter was than normal.


And yes, a DM can run a world where everything doesn't influence everything but that's essentially a dead world, a sequence of clips for the PCs to view.
There's a difference between choosing when and why and how and what to modify, and modifying everything just because everything should "make sense." The latter tends to lead to people ranting about how the whole game is broken.


Things being interconnected is crucial for the players' agency, because that allows the players to actually influence the game world too by touching certain wires out of that interconnected whole.
Things not always being interconnected is also crucial for the players' agency, because dealing with unintended consequences and DM counters (especially the lol backstory form) at every turn isn't exactly fun either. Sometimes a dragon should just be a dragon (and when it's overleveled, it should definitely just be a dragon).



All this talk of Mage Armor on dragons does make for an amusing in-world bit of lore: games are always describing dragon scales as harder than steel, but they usually aren't. People trying to attack a dragon covered in invisible force might describe it that way though.