Boosting Sorcerer Cantrips?

[Azther]

I always thought the Sorcerer should be the biggest blaster in the game but the Warlock gets way ahead of him by level 2. It gets hard to roleplay an innate master of the arcane that has to hold his powers back at all times to not hurt others when you're not dealing that much damage anyway.

What about changing the Draconic Sorcerer Elemental Affinity for something that would allow the Sorcerer to compete with the Warlock? I thought about this:

Elemental Affinity

Whenever you cast a Cantrip that deals damage associated to your Draconic Ancestral, you can choose to deal maximum damage.


This way it can rival the average damage for Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast while still letting the Warlock have his thing (and possibly dealing more damage). Let's test with level 12 characters:

Warlock: 3d10 + 15 = Avg 30 Dmg

Sorcerer: 3d10 = Always 30 Dmg


- It doesn't extend to higher level spells so it's not OP
- Rivals Warlock without stealing his schtick (EB+AB)
- More thematically appropriate to a character that has to hold back his power
- No more rolling crits and then rolling two 1's (It has happened to me)


I'm really bored and I thought about this in like 5 minutes. What do you guys think?

[MaxWilson]

I'm really bored and I thought about this in like 5 minutes. What do you guys think?

Honestly I don't think it would break the game. 5E's designers are really chary with the DPR boosts--they hand out +spellcasting mod to damage like it's supposed to be a big deal--even though they are really generous with defensive boosts. (Cloak of Displacement anyone?) But this change isn't really much power creep, because this level of damage is already possible under 5E with sorlocks. At most it's just letting you get sorlock-level damage without paying the 2-level penalty to your sorcerer spell progression, which means you'll be chucking Fireballs at a level where a sorlock is still casting Web, and/or you'll be casting Twinned Polymorph at a level where the sorlock is still casting Fireballs. But unlock the Sorlock you don't have short-rest recharge spell slots, nor Hexed Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast (which can do ridiculous amounts of damage when there's a chance to e.g. knock enemies off cliffs or off the backs of their flying mounts) nor free temp HP on kill or any of that other warlock goodness; and you're still not more powerful than a Necromancer in raw damage potential. I do not think this pushes the envelope for 5E characters, even though it does push the envelope for Sorcerers. Certainly it's a less disruptive change to the game than the advent of SCAG cantrips or Healing Spirit, both of which were WotC-sanctioned changes--and neither SCAG cantrips nor Healing Spirit has prevented people from having fun.

So even though it is sort of contrary to 5E's overall design, I think you could do this and it would still be a fun game.

[Vessyra]

Warlock and sorcerer cantrips are very different. Sorcerer cantrips are for when you don't want to spent some of your spell slots; however, warlocks have so few spell slots that, if they don't have decent fighting and they don't want to blow all of their spells in one fight (which they can do, since they get spells back after a short rest) then they have to do cantrips. Agonising blast is what allows them to do cantrips most of the time without sucking.

That being said, I don't think that maximised damage is game-breaking, given the above calculations.

[Azther]

Honestly I don't think it would break the game. 5E's designers are really chary with the DPR boosts--they hand out +spellcasting mod to damage like it's supposed to be a big deal--even though they are really generous with defensive boosts. (Cloak of Displacement anyone?) But this change isn't really much power creep, because this level of damage is already possible under 5E with sorlocks. At most it's just letting you get sorlock-level damage without paying the 2-level penalty to your sorcerer spell progression, which means you'll be chucking Fireballs at a level where a sorlock is still casting Web, and/or you'll be casting Twinned Polymorph at a level where the sorlock is still casting Fireballs. But unlock the Sorlock you don't have short-rest recharge spell slots, nor Hexed Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast (which can do ridiculous amounts of damage when there's a chance to e.g. knock enemies off cliffs or off the backs of their flying mounts) nor free temp HP on kill or any of that other warlock goodness; and you're still not more powerful than a Necromancer in raw damage potential. I do not think this pushes the envelope for 5E characters, even though it does push the envelope for Sorcerers. Certainly it's a less disruptive change to the game than the advent of SCAG cantrips or Healing Spirit, both of which were WotC-sanctioned changes--and neither SCAG cantrips nor Healing Spirit has prevented people from having fun.

So even though it is sort of contrary to 5E's overall design, I think you could do this and it would still be a fun game.

My initial thought was of making a Sorlock but the delay on spell and ASI progression made me back away.

Btw how do Necromancers do all that damage you said?

[Quoxis]

I always thought the Sorcerer should be the biggest blaster in the game but the Warlock gets way ahead of him by level 2. It gets hard to roleplay an innate master of the arcane that has to hold his powers back at all times to not hurt others when you're not dealing that much damage anyway.


Maybe there’s your problem? I don’t know if you got that idea from previous editions or from that recurring troll with his nameless king, but as far as i know the rules never called the sorcerer superior to any other class.

That being said: casting more than two big damaging spells per fight should already outdamage your regular ol‘ warlock, and the chance to impose disadvantage on saving throws/hit multiple baddies with single target spells/cast two damaging spells in one turn isn’t too bad either - you just gotta look at the class as an entirety, not just at its spell list.

[Unoriginal]

Sorcerer is not a "big at-will damage" class.

In term of ressource-dependant damage option, they're clearly better blasters than Warlocks.

A Sorcerer's cantrips is what they use when using their big guns would be a waste, when they want to do additional damage after using a leveled spell, or when they're out of juice. If you boost the cantrips without it costing anything, you're making them too good.

In other words: Sorcerers work more than fine as blasters now, if you just boost the cantrips without compensating elsewhere you're making the class too powerful, if you change things to compensate you'll end up with a different class that's basically Warlock.


Keep in mind that the leveled damage spell + damage cantrip in one turn combo Sorcerers can do can be very devastating.

[kamap]

The math is also assuming all three bolts from the warlock hit to the one bolt from the sorcerer.

The classes are good as is, the sorcerer doesn't need upscaled cantrips cause they have a good amount of spellslots and can use their metamagic to better their spells.
The warlock hasn't got many spellslots and will run out fast, so the warlock needs a good backup, the sorcerer not so much.

[GorogIrongut]

'IF' we were to implement a change, and I'm not saying one is needed... then I would do it thusly.

Sorcerors, as part of the main class and not a sub class, receive a +1 damage for every 2 levels in sorceror rounded down, to any damage done by a cantrip that they've cast.

This way it's nowhere near overpowered, encourages putting multiple levels in sorceror for any tangible effect, helps mitigate the paucity of spells a sorceror gets and makes a sorceror feel a little bit cooler.

[MaxWilson]

The math is also assuming all three bolts from the warlock hit to the one bolt from the sorcerer.

The average hit rate for three bolts is the exact same as the average for one bolt, unless special circumstances such as Skulker + bonus action Hide or Help from a familiar are in play that can benefit only one hit.

====================================


My initial thought was of making a Sorlock but the delay on spell and ASI progression made me back away.

Btw how do Necromancers do all that damage you said?

They take advantage of the fact that Animate Dead is a stackable, non-concentration spell and cast it three or four times every day to generate a bunch of skeletal archer minions, then (optionally) buff those minions with Inspiring Leader temp HP and pass out equipment like scale mail, shields, and heavy crossbows or longbows (depending on what proficiencies the skeletons wind up with--a reasonable DM ruling is that, like languages, the skeleton has the same proficiencies as the living creature did). Then they order those skeletons to keep a reasonably-dispersed formation (to minimize the effect of AoEs like Fireballs and clerical turning) and have them fill enemies full of arrows whenever a fight starts.

A 9th level Red Dragon Sorcerer under your proposed rule variant could use Twin Fire Bolt + Quickened Fire Bolt to max out at 39 DPR against an AC 18 target. (Hit on an 9+ for 20 points of damage, double that on a natural 20. Technically I guess that makes it two AC 18 targets, since Twin requires a second target.) Each time he does that it eats 3 sorcery points, equivalent to a 2nd level spell. A 9th level Necromancer with twelve skeletons (equivalent to three 3rd level spell slots) will have 264 HP worth of skeletons (384+ HP if using Inspiring Leader) that do 58.50 DPR against that same AC 18 target. (Hit on a 13+ for d10+6 for Heavy Crossbows, due to the Necromancer +4 damage bonus from Undead Thralls, x12 for twelve attacks.) Then the Necromancer himself gets to do something on top of that, which could be cantrips like Ray of Frost to slow enemies and buy more time for skeletons to shoot them, or sowing caltrops, or Dodging/Blade Ward to keep himself alive, or casting Web/Evard's Black Tentacles to restrain enemies and grant advantage on attacks (which boosts skeletons to 94.75 DPR BTW, in addition to benefitting other party members), or just standing there laughing maniacally at all the carnage. :-)

Advanced strategies include deploying skeletons with other equipment (like nets), zombies in chain mail with greatswords using Help, and/or super-wights created via Create Undead and permanently bound with Geas and long-term Mass Suggestion. Plus elementals under Planar Binding, but now we're getting into non-Necromancer-specific territory.

Anyway, this is why I feel that letting dragon sorcerer cantrips do maximum damage, while a little extreme for my taste, is still less extreme than some other strategies that are already right there in the game.

[Daghoulish]

(equivalent to three 3rd level spell slots)

If I may ask, why are you comparing cantrip damage to three 3rd level spell slots? Of course the spellslots would do more they should otherwise people would only use cantrips. You should be comparing it to a 3rd level sorcerer spell and a quickened cantrip. Such as a red draconic sorcerer using fireball with a quicken firebolt.

[MaxWilson]

If I may ask, why are you comparing cantrip damage to three 3rd level spell slots? Of course the spellslots would do more they should otherwise people would only use cantrips. You should be comparing it to a 3rd level sorcerer spell and a quickened cantrip. Such as a red draconic sorcerer using fireball with a quicken firebolt.

Because the "cantrip" damage has a resource cost equivalent to a 2nd level spell, because the skeleton archers get to make at-will attacks all day and are in that sense equivalent to cantrips, and because I was directly asked about it. Capisce?

[Daghoulish]

Because the "cantrip" damage has a resource cost equivalent to a 2nd level spell, because the skeleton archers get to make at-will attacks all day and are in that sense equivalent to cantrips, and because I was directly asked about it. Capisce?

Alright, some more questions. The cantrip might have an "equivalent" cost to a second level spell but they haven't used a second level slot and can stilll do a second level spell. So the Sorcerer is still up in resources and can do more over the course of the day.

Second, how are you getting 12 skeletons with three 3rd level slots? A necromancer can only make 2 skeletons with animated dead at 3rd level. So at best you should have 6 skeletons. Beyond that, everyone I've meet has always put restrictions on minionmancy for the very reason your showed, as well as time limits.

[MaxWilson]

Alright, some more questions. The cantrip might have an "equivalent" cost to a second level spell but they haven't used a second level slot and can stilll do a second level spell. So the Sorcerer is still up in resources and can do more over the course of the day.

The sorcerer is spending the equivalent of a 2nd level slot to do significantly less damage under more restrictions (needs multiple targets). Are you trying to argue that the sorcerer needs to be nerfed further relative to the Necromancer? I don't buy it. My point here is that even though the proposed change is somewhat extreme ("maximum damage on every cantrip" isn't really consistent with 5E's general philosophy of handing out tiny bonuses to damage and expecting you to be happy about it), it's not going to take your game anywhere it couldn't already go. Therefore it's fine, go ahead and use that rule variant if you want to make sorcerers feel powerful.

BTW I don't follow your point about the sorcerer being "up on resources" because they "haven't used a second level slot." A 9th level sorcerer gets 9 sorcery points to spend on spells or metamagic; a 9th level wizard gets +5 spell levels from Arcane Recovery; if the sorcerer tries to compete with the Necromancer on DPR by relying on Twin Fire Bolt and Quickened Fire Bolt every round he's going to run out of steam long before the Necromancer does. Do you disagree? (And if he's relying more on spells like Fireball instead of Fire Bolt, the proposed rule change is actually a nerf, not a buff, so again not a balance concern.)


Second, how are you getting 12 skeletons with three 3rd level slots? A necromancer can only make 2 skeletons with animated dead at 3rd level. So at best you should have 6 skeletons. Beyond that, everyone I've meet has always put restrictions on minionmancy for the very reason your showed, as well as time limits.

Animate Dead scales differently on a recasting than a first casting. If you are doing as I said in my post and "cast it three or four times every day", well, three re-casts every day lets you maintain 12 skeletons indefinitely. If you want to raise 12 skeletons from scratch you're going to be better off using your high level slots instead (two 5th level slots, using Arcane Recovery to get the second slot) and saving your third-level slots for Fireball/Slow/whatnot, or if you'd rather save your 5th level slots for Wall of Force you could use three 4th level spells. The details aren't really important though because obviously the Necromancer can have have much, much more than just 12 skeletons if he wants to go all-in, easily double that. IME Necromancers don't want to go all-in though, because that makes the game too easy and hogs too much of the spotlight. IME Necromancers just want enough skeletons to make them feel safe and powerful, but not to utterly crush the opposition and render the rest of the party irrelevant.

I really don't know why you're making such a big deal of this. Everybody already knows that Necromancers are ridiculously strong in 5E; it's not even controversial. Why are you so interested in nitpicking the details?

[Daghoulish]

I really don't know why you're making such a big deal of this. Everybody already knows that Necromancers are ridiculously strong in 5E; it's not even controversial. Why are you so interested in nitpicking the details?

So you think that comparing cantrip damage to a know overpowered strategy is a good justification for buffing it? Might as well make every spell stronger because this one cheese strategy is obviously the best dps. I will admit, I missed the last part of animate dead that lets you keep more under your control than the spell makes. I think this is horribly stupid and makes no sense but that doesn't matter.

In regards to op. Yes a warlocks eldritch blast is stronger than your sorcerers firebolt. It has to be because they only get 2 spell slots while your sorcerer can fireball 3+ times. Yes, the warlock gets their slots back on a short rest but that's usually only 2 times per day at best for a total of 6 spell slots total. All the while your sorcerer has 14 spells to throw around. Without eldritch blast a warlock would be a significantly worse caster in almost every case.

[Citan]

The average hit rate for three bolts is the exact same as the average for one bolt, unless special circumstances such as Skulker + bonus action Hide or Help from a familiar are in play that can benefit only one hit.

Using that sentence to hint at the fact it's actually the same in both cases is extremely wrong.
While chance to hit per bolt may be the same at any given time between Firebolt and Eldricht Blast (both ranged spell attack) the simple fact that one side is "all or nothing" while the other is "several attempts" changes everything.

Even with advantage on your side, you can still have two bad rolls.
Chance of having six bad rolls though? Extremely low.

Eldricht Blast is the best cantrip not especially because of the extra damage, but because it has the highest average *when you include chance to hit* of all non-save cantrips.

On that note, I wonder if that dreaded balance-tipping Elven Accuracy could break the theorycrafted balance by OP. Without it, having the auto-maximum damage is fair enough, compensating for all the times you will deal 0.
With it? If the DM doesn't start firing true punches by bringing sources of disadvantage to cancel advantage, the Sorcerer would probably best any other caster at at-will damage and basically everyone that doesn't have Elven Accuracy.
To be fair, with game as-is, any Warlock with Devil's Sight and Elven Accuracy already breaks balance hard so OP's suggested change would be welcome for Sorcerer and still "within limits".

On OP's proposition, there is also the problem (or maybe not) of save or suck with damage on save cantrips.
You don't have many of them, and them come with limitation, but it does equate to somewhere around a level 1 Magic Missile at higher level (plz correct me if I'm wrong, no time to go fetch cantrips and do the math).
Maybe it's not significant, maybe it is. No opinion here, just pointing out that specific aspect. :)

[MaxWilson]

So you think that comparing cantrip damage to a know overpowered strategy is a good justification for buffing it? Might as well make every spell stronger because this one cheese strategy is obviously the best dps.

I think that 5E is dreadfully unbalanced with lots of horribly OP strategies. The proposed rule variant would be OP compared to a vanilla sorcerer, and I wouldn't use it myself, but it wouldn't make the sorcerer OP compared to everything else that's in the game. It would move a blaster sorc from, say, the 30th percentile of effectiveness to maybe the 55th percentile. (Numbers are not precise here but you get the gist.) A DM who embraces the proposed variant probably is not going to see radical changes to play like a party of pure sorcerers, at least not after the players have the chance to digest the change and think about alternatives.

[ImproperJustice]

Also, Sorcerers blast just fine with meta magic like Twin Spell, Heighten Spell, and especially Empower Spell.

I feel that Empower should get more love. I have used it a lot lately to turn mediocre blastings into encounter ending spectacles, and it’s just so cheap.

Warlocks blast with EB, and they do it well. But that is kind of the big main thing they do.

I would argue that an empowered Draconic Fireball is going to have more impact on an encounter than the pew pew of 2-3 Eldritch Bolts.

[UrielAwakened]

Every Sorcerer should add its Cha mod to all damage spells.

Fixed. A full edition ago.

[Theodoxus]

Every Sorcerer should add its Cha mod to all damage spells.

Fixed. A full edition ago.

4th Edition actually fixed a lot of things that 5E broke... (getting the temporal reasoning out of that made my head hurt).

Or, another way to say it "Why did WotC drop so many great innovations from 4E when they went back to Vancian casting 2nd/3rd Ed?"

Saving Throws and Defenses, Skill challenges, Class balance... to name three.

[Unoriginal]

5e's class balance is great.

I find it funny you criticise 5e balance while agreeing to a post proposing to wreck it for the Sorcerer's benefit (that the post is claiming to fix a non-existing "problem" is funny too).

Because that's what giving the Sorcerer +CHA mod to all damage spells. +5 damages to all spells is a huge boon, especially when you consider how many the Sorcerer can have.

Meanwhile the Warlock would still only have 2 spell slots and wonder why the Sorcerer was given such a big boost without cost.

[Vogie]

I wouldn't do it baseline, but using a metamagic to do so wouldn't be too difficult. They have something not unlike it in Pathfinder (and 3.5, IIRC), so I'll use that term:

Maximize Spell
When you would normally roll one or more dice to deal damage with a cantrip you can spend 1 sorcery point to instead use the highest number possible for each die. Saving throws are not affected, nor are spells without variables.


That way it feels very sorcerer-y without breaking anything. It is limited to cantrips, thus not stepping on the toes of Empowered spell, nor does it touch saving throws, thus avoiding being a Heightened spell.

[MaxWilson]

Using that sentence to hint at the fact it's actually the same in both cases is extremely wrong.
While chance to hit per bolt may be the same at any given time between Firebolt and Eldricht Blast (both ranged spell attack) the simple fact that one side is "all or nothing" while the other is "several attempts" changes everything.

In what respect? Are you thinking of concentration rolls? Besides concentration, and maybe death saving throws, there's no significant difference between N attacks for M damage vs. a single attack for N*M damage. They both have the same expected damage, and that's true regardless of hit rate.


Even with advantage on your side, you can still have two bad rolls.
Chance of having six bad rolls though? Extremely low.

And the chances of having six good rolls are equally low. It evens out.


Eldricht Blast is the best cantrip not especially because of the extra damage, but because it has the highest average *when you include chance to hit* of all non-save cantrips.

Why the emphasis on "when you include chance to hit"? Its relative advantage over similar is exactly the same no matter whether you include hit rate or not, unless special circumstances like the aforementioned Help are in play which only work on one attack or one hit. What are you trying to say by emphasizing "when you include chance to hit"?


On that note, I wonder if that dreaded balance-tipping Elven Accuracy could break the theorycrafted balance by OP. Without it, having the auto-maximum damage is fair enough, compensating for all the times you will deal 0.
With it? If the DM doesn't start firing true punches by bringing sources of disadvantage to cancel advantage, the Sorcerer would probably best any other caster at at-will damage and basically everyone that doesn't have Elven Accuracy.

Again, I'm not following. How is this sorcerer getting advantage in this scenario to benefit from Elven Accuracy? Greater Invisibility? Since we're talking about at-will damage, he's obviously not using Quicken Spell, so how is he eclipsing Sharpshooters? Sure, maybe your 9th level Elven Accuracy Half-elf Sorcerer is now doing 20 points of damage when he hits (average 13 DPR against an AC 18 target) and about 18-19 DPR if he casts Greater Invisibility first, but a Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter Fighter 9 is doing 25.50 DPR. You're spending a feat and a 4th level spell to still come in second place (or worse). Where's the beef?


To be fair, with game as-is, any Warlock with Devil's Sight and Elven Accuracy already breaks balance hard so OP's suggested change would be welcome for Sorcerer and still "within limits".

Exactly. It's not power creep.

[Citan]

In what respect? Are you thinking of concentration rolls? Besides concentration, and maybe death saving throws, there's no significant difference between N attacks for M damage vs. a single attack for N*M damage. They both have the same expected damage, and that's true regardless of hit rate.



And the chances of having six good rolls are equally low. It evens out.



Why the emphasis on "when you include chance to hit"? Its relative advantage over similar is exactly the same no matter whether you include hit rate or not, unless special circumstances like the aforementioned Help are in play which only work on one attack or one hit. What are you trying to say by emphasizing "when you include chance to hit"?

Indeed, you did not get my point.
My point is, with Eldricht Blast, you'll most probably never waste your action. You'll at least deal *some* damage and possibly apply an interesting control effect.
That plus, as you pointed out (I didn't even think of that actually) the fact you can trigger several concentration checks on a single creature, or the fact you can accurately distribute damage over several spreaded out targets.

Compare to that, every other caster for which 90% of cantrips are "all or nothing" (with nothing = waste of action).
That's why you cannot, *at all*, say it's the same thing.

Even advantage is not enough to even out things when targeting strong AC targets.
For example, let's take a 18 AC (imo very reasonable expectation for any enemy at high levels). You want to deal damage and diminish its speed.
With max CHA, max prof, +11 to hit.
Chance to hit normally: 70%.
Chance of dealing no damage/rider with Ray of Frost? 30%.
Chance of dealing no damage/rider with Eldricht Blast (meaning missing on all four rays?): 30%*30%*30%*30%= less than 1%.

With advantage, things are less impressive, since base chance goes up to 91%. But you still can miss.
It's only with Elven Accuracy that a caster can reliably apply his cantrip.

And that's for a level 20 character.

Let's view things at level 5.
"Only" 2 rays for Eldricht Blast, not great right?
But also only +4 CHA best case, +3 prof, so +7.
Let's grab an AC 16 target.

Normal chance of missing on a roll: 50%
So chance of dealing no damage+rider on Ray of Frost: 50%
Chance of dealing no damage+rider on Eldricht Blast: 50%² = 25%.
It's huge.
Even with advantage you still have a big benefit of having two attempts.
Chance of wasting Ray of Frost: ~25%
Chance of wasting Eldricht Blast: ~12.5%

Again, only with Elven Accuracy does Eldricht Blast lose, kinda, its accuracy advantage, because even Ray of Frost becomes reliable, although still not quite as much:
Chance of wasting Ray of Frost: 12.5%
Chance of wasting Eldricht Blast: 1.5%

Whether you care about damage or not*, as long as you decided that for that current turn attempting a cantrip was your best course of action, Eldricht Blast trumps every other cantrip hard. Advantage or not, EA or not. :)

*Edit: I took this example for a reason: of course this is a particular example, and if all one cares about is damage, then you could argue that just dealing 1d10+x when you hoped to deal several times that is not that far away from "wasting your action", especially at higher levels.
But that's precisely why I don't get people who get themselves off about Eldricht Blast having the highest damage, when its power is much more in the added effects you can apply to it which only require one hit and can be paired with AOE spells.
Even if, of course, the +CHA is a nice addition at higher levels.

And now, I'll leave you imagining the controlling power of a Warlock/Sorcerer (when you are ready to consume much resources obviously) combining Ray of Frost and Lange Of Lethargy's Eldricht Blast with Quicken (even yummier when there is an AOE somewhere of course): -20 feet is enough to bother even the quickest (non-flying, because those usually have great base speed) creature. ;)
And you can cast this from a Devil Sight's Darkness or Shadow Sorcerer's Darkness so you get advantage on which to stack Elven Accuracy so your allies can count on this trick working. :)

[MrStabby]

The problem with the OP suggestion is that the Sorcerer is a very powerful class and this makes it more powerful.

If you think a character struggling to hold back their magic power should should be better at casting cantrips then build that character as a warlock.