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Fualkner Asiniti
2007-09-09, 08:12 PM
Okay, it has been decided that melle types suck. Why? We aren't gonna talk about this. So, what do we do to adjust?

Lots and lots of Feats.

Fighters: feat every level. Heck, this isn't even close yet, but still better.

Monks: Bonus Feat every other level.

Paladin and Ranger: Bonus feat every three levels, Paladins have to take fighter feats.

Rogue: Extra feat every once in a while, Not sure what the rate should be for this one...

Comments, fixes, ect?

Neon Knight
2007-09-09, 08:13 PM
Nope. That won't save you. Feats are just not powerful enough. The weakness of the meleer in DnD is his dependence on the full attack.

Only certain Dervish builds and ToB classes dodge that bullet.

Sucrose
2007-09-09, 08:17 PM
Nope. That won't save you. Feats are just not powerful enough. The weakness of the meleer in DnD is his dependence on the full attack.

Only certain Dervish builds and ToB classes dodge that bullet.

Don't forget uberchargers. Anyway, the other classes can take Martial Study and Martial Stance with their extra feats. Thus, at the higher levels when the disparity gets really out of hand, they can get something useful to do (though I guess that they'd need to multiclass as ToB characters to get access to a recovery mechanic:smallyuk: ).

Also, if you want to fix the classes, give the fighter something to do outside of combat. 4+Int skill points, add in a couple of class skills (Diplomacy, maybe, for the courtly gentleman fighter? Sense Motive is something I would definitely picture a seasoned warrior having.)

Fualkner Asiniti
2007-09-09, 08:24 PM
...Crud. So, the only good melee build is ToB? Dang. Does that have a sneaky class?

Neon Knight
2007-09-09, 08:26 PM
...Crud. So, the only good melee build is ToB? Dang. Does that have a sneaky class?

No, as noted, uber charge monkeys and dervish builds can be classified as good melee.

And the Swordsage is fairly sneaky, so yes. He gets Hide and Move Silently as class skills, and the Shadow Hand Discipline has sneaky maneuvers.

Sucrose
2007-09-09, 08:31 PM
Well, the Swordsage does pretty well there, though it doesn't get trapfinding.

Anyway, you really shouldn't worry about it too much. Unless people have a reasonably firm grasp of the principles of optimization, the power disparity that you're concerned about usually doesn't show up below level ten or so.

Someone might luck into a powerful spell, but, in general, you'll be fine just playing what you want:smallsmile: . The game's broken at high levels, but it isn't so bad before then.

Edit: Ninja seem to have it out for me today...

Behold_the_Void
2007-09-09, 08:35 PM
...Crud. So, the only good melee build is ToB? Dang. Does that have a sneaky class?

Shadow Hand Swordsage with stealth-based skills works great.

Fualkner Asiniti
2007-09-09, 08:43 PM
Well, my party consits of 2 rogues, a bow ranger, and 2 arcane (which we will not concern ourselves with.)

Should I tell those 3 players to start taking levels in swordsage?

Neon Knight
2007-09-09, 08:45 PM
Well, my party consits of 2 rogues, a bow ranger, and 2 arcane (which we will not concern ourselves with.)

Should I tell those 3 players to start taking levels in swordsage?

Well, it depends. How balanced is your group right now? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-09, 09:19 PM
Rogues aren't that bad because of their non-combat abilities. Also, sneak attack is very useful. Swordsage replaced monk, not rogue. Ranger however, needs something, but a scout/ranger works great. I'm playing a Tibbit Rogue/Swordsage, rogue for sneak attack and swordsage for the unarmed strike and maneuvers, and he is an uber sneaky character (though being a house cat helps a lot).

the_tick_rules
2007-09-09, 11:06 PM
i think these melee suck threads are so annoying me.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-09, 11:10 PM
The "give feats every level" suggestion has been made and argued against 100 times before. Why do it again?

Hadrian_Emrys
2007-09-09, 11:25 PM
If you're in dire need for a quick fix, one without elegance or grace... make the full attack a move action.:smalltongue:

Miles Invictus
2007-09-09, 11:49 PM
Fax has a "Tome of Battle Core Class Update (http://corporation.walagata.com/fax/wiki/index.php/Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update)" over at his site. I intend to implement it in my own campaign, as soon as my players are a bit more familiar with the rules.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-10, 12:01 AM
You don't really need a fix for the "sneaky-types." They have decent damage output, interesting things to do out of combat and enough options to make them interesting in combat. The only classes in need of real help are the Fighter, Paladin and Monk. Barbarians and Rangers have options in the form of damage and skill points/class skills that keep them productive.

The only really needed change is to replace melee Fighters, nonmounted Paladins and all forms of Monk (besides clerics) with Warblades, Crusaders and Swordsages respectively.

I think Fax's bit is unneccessary looks to be quite imbalancing in the cases of Ranger and Bard. The others I'm not sure about. The ToB classes have enough generality to be applicable to most fighter concepts (beside archer) without clinging to the old classes

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-09-10, 12:25 AM
Here's a better idea...

replace Fighter with Warblade. Replace monk with Swordsage. Replace Paladin with Crusader.

All done.

Dervag
2007-09-10, 12:45 AM
i think these melee suck threads are so annoying me.You're not sure?


Here's a better idea...

replace Fighter with Warblade. Replace monk with Swordsage. Replace Paladin with Crusader.

All done.That's exactly what someone else said just before you.

What I think the meleers need is a 'stay with opponent' feat/ability chain that lets them deliver their full attacks except against very elusive opponents. And by 'very elusive' I mean 'unusually so for its CR'. Being able to fly isn't unusually elusive.