How to beat Hellcat Steatlh + Lurker in Darkness?

[EldritchWeaver]

Note: I use SKR's clarification which makes Hellcat Stealth work at all light levels.

My character employs both Hellcat Stealth and Lurker in Darkness (the SoP variant (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc29), if that matters). During the boss's dialogue with the party I was flying around to find out where the probably invisible enemy, but got called out by the boss without being told to make a Stealth roll. So I'm wondering which rule was used to break my stealth automatically. Is there a possibility? I can't ask my GM as we are not finished by the encounter, yet I need to know if there is a chance that there is a ruling error while it can be still corrected. At least I'd like to know if it is possible without resorting to GM fiat.

[Galacktic]

Permanent/active See Invisibility comes to mind

E: Wait, this isn't real invisibility, it's just a massive stealth check and not being auto detected by senses. Derp. Need to learn to read first, answer second.

Nothing really comes to mind that would auto detect you, honestly, unless their passive perception check just blew your stealth out of the water.

[PunBlake]

3.5's Mindsight could also break stealth (if the enemy is telepathic).

[heavyfuel]

It's also entirely possible the DM rolled secretly for both you and the NPC and you lost. Also, did he at any point ask you to roll a "random" d20? That might have been your stealth check, he just didn't say so.

[EldritchWeaver]

It's also entirely possible the DM rolled secretly for both you and the NPC and you lost. Also, did he at any point ask you to roll a "random" d20? That might have been your stealth check, he just didn't say so.

No, he didn't. Also I have a +48 bonus in Stealth, so basically unbeatable by any enemy who doesn't invest in Perception as much.

[heavyfuel]

so basically unbeatable by any enemy who doesn't invest in Perception as much.

Maybe the Boss invested in Perception as much?

[Vhaidara]

Did he call out your location? It could have been the result of divination, he knows you're there, but not exactly where. Think Smaug and Bilbo.

[Hua]

I am not familiar with the ability you have, but would a True Seeing spell work against it?


If you triggered a Alarm spell with a mental announcement to the boss, would that fit your situation?

[Axel_Neco]

Another thing we're missing in context: it's a boss fight. Did you pass through any traps on the way to this boss? Such as runes or glyphs or other magical traps? Does he have any flunkies with him? Any that survived a previous encounter with your group? Forewarned is forearmed. If he knows you're "there" with the group, he's fine with calling you out on that. Calling out location like Keledrath said is a different story.

If not, then I have to agree, with those 2 feats in conjunction, you should of been unnoticed.

Edit: Alarm would work just fine. Not Invisibility Alarm though. For those wondering: hellcat allows stealth checks at all times, lurker in darkness denies stuff like blindsight. No magic involved.

[heavyfuel]

I am not familiar with the ability you have, but would a True Seeing spell work against it?

If you triggered a Alarm spell with a mental announcement to the boss, would that fit your situation?

True Seeing wouldn't work, but the alarm spell is definitely possible.

[zlefin]

it's also possible the dm just goofed and forgot about your ability.
there's certainly a chance of a ruling error; especially if it's material you're all less familiar with or the pcs get lots of abilities it's easy to lose track and forget.

I'd just mention your concerns to the dm, point to the abilities, and ask them to make sure they didn't forget anything (acknowledging that they don't have to explain the particulars of why until another time).

[EldritchWeaver]

Did he call out your location? It could have been the result of divination, he knows you're there, but not exactly where. Think Smaug and Bilbo.

The boss specifically noticed me moving around and told me to stop.


If you triggered a Alarm spell with a mental announcement to the boss, would that fit your situation?

We triggered an Alarm spell earlier which alerted the boss of our presence. But in that room there weren't any alarm spells. I have effectively permanent detect magic, which would have been required to be foiled in the first place.


it's also possible the dm just goofed and forgot about your ability.
there's certainly a chance of a ruling error; especially if it's material you're all less familiar with or the pcs get lots of abilities it's easy to lose track and forget.

I'd just mention your concerns to the dm, point to the abilities, and ask them to make sure they didn't forget anything (acknowledging that they don't have to explain the particulars of why until another time).

I did call him out on this, but he mentioned something like that this special room can do something extraordinary.

[Efrate]

Sounds like fiat because you autowin all fights with little to no recourse. Or at least can always get the jump on someone. He didn't want to trivializing the boss fight. Unless every one is playing at that level of optimization In which case yeah they would take the steps needed to protect themselves.

[DeTess]

I did call him out on this, but he mentioned something like that this special room can do something extraordinary.

Could the room give people attuned to it a big flat bonus to perception or automagically highlight everyone in it with a highly visible aura?

Unless the DM throws such rooms at you constantly, I wouldn't make too big of a deal out of it. You've obviously optimized one aspect of your character to the point that it can't be beaten mechanically under anything short of extraordinary circumstances, and it gives your character a kind of invulnerability in most situations. A really good DM with lots of time on his hand might find a way to write situations where you would want to expose yourself to danger by dropping your stealth, but most mere mortals will have to choose between rarely/never challenging you, or occasionally just saying 'no'.

Did your DM review your build before allowing it, or was this a case of 'bring whatever you want'?

[lord_khaine]

I think its pretty clear from your gm's comment that this is the case of a custom boss design.

But to be fair, i also think Lurker in the Darkness is a stupid feat. So i can understand why your gm is taking this route instead of paging though gods know how many books for a counter.

[MeimuHakurei]

A room with dim light is all that's needed to break the combo. Hellcat Stealth only allows you to hide while observed in normal or bright light; it does not apply in total darkness or dim light.

[Necroticplague]

But to be fair, i also think Lurker in the Darkness is a stupid feat. So i can understand why your gm is taking this route instead of paging though gods know how many books for a counter.
No, the fact that Lurker in Darkness can be considered necessary for an entire archetype (as was it's 3.5 predecessor, Darkstalker) is what's stupid. The fact that a single ability, that becomes ever more ridiculously common as you move up in level, can entirely shut down every sneaky character ever, should never have been a thing. At least Lurker still allows a roll against Stealth.

Sounds like fiat because you autowin all fights with little to no recourse. Or at least can always get the jump on someone. He didn't want to trivializing the boss fight. Unless every one is playing at that level of optimization In which case yeah they would take the steps needed to protect themselves.
This. All enemies fighting at a massive disadvantage (flat-footed, -2, can't precision, need to grope around to even find where you are) is acceptable when it's nameless chattel that die like flied, but considerably less so against anyone who's supposed to be a challenge.

[Eldariel]

Do you have magic items on your person? Could be simple Arcane Sight.

[heavyfuel]

Do you have magic items on your person? Could be simple Arcane Sight.

Good call. OP did say the character has permanent Detect Magic active. Also very unlikely he got a +48 bonus to stealth without any magic item (though these can be made "invisible" with a few castings of Magic Aura)

[Mehangel]

A room with dim light is all that's needed to break the combo. Hellcat Stealth only allows you to hide while observed in normal or bright light; it does not apply in total darkness or dim light.

That is a good point, if the room is not brightly lit, then you lose the benefit of Hellcat Stealth, and you can no longer make stealth checks while observed. And if you ended any space in the room without cover or concealment you immediately break stealth, allowing you to be observed and unable to re-enter stealth because of the lack of bright light, cover, or concealment.

Now something of note is that dim light does infact grant concealment. I am unsure RAW or RAI however if low-light vision counts as a special sense for the purpose of the Lurker in Darkness feat. One thing that all the special senses have in common is a specific range of their abilities (tremorsense 30 ft, greensight 60 ft, blindsight 100 ft, etc). Low-light vision does not have listed out a particular range in their statblock. This makes me think that a creature that is using low-light vision is not subject to the feat. Since a creature with low-light vision can see into dim light twice as far, it wouldn't be impossible for me to conceive of a room that is magically dim light, but creatures with low-light vision are able to see through it normally, and thus the dim light would not grant concealment against creatures with low-light vision. I haven't looked into the specifics, but I imagine it would probably involve the Blacklight (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/light#toc4) talent.

[DeTess]

That is a good point, if the room is not brightly lit, then you lose the benefit of Hellcat Stealth, and you can no longer make stealth checks while observed. And if you ended any space in the room without cover or concealment you immediately break stealth, allowing you to be observed and unable to re-enter stealth because of the lack of bright light, cover, or concealment.

The OP actually mentioned that he was using some kind of errata about the hellcat's stealth thing.

Note: I use SKR's clarification which makes Hellcat Stealth work at all light levels.

[Elkad]

"Called out" how?

Regular divinations still work. So he is likely to know you exist and accompany the party. Is it possible he just bluffed?

BBEG says, while waving vaguely in your direction "You all, including your invisible flying friend over there, are going to die."

[Mehangel]

The Spheres of Power version of Lurker in Darkness does not protect against (divine) talents from the Divination sphere. Since you admit that you did infact trigger an alarm, it is quite possible for the BBEG to be simply concentrating on a (divine) effect such as the base Divination sphere ability and pin-pointed your location that way. Ofcourse, he still wouldn't be able to see you, just pinpoint what square you are in.

[Psyren]

Maybe the Boss invested in Perception as much?

This - Hellcat isn't bulletproof, nor it seems is this third-party feat.


I think its pretty clear from your gm's comment that this is the case of a custom boss design.

But to be fair, i also think Lurker in the Darkness is a stupid feat. So i can understand why your gm is taking this route instead of paging though gods know how many books for a counter.

Agreed. The more sensible first-party version is Dampen Presence (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dampen-presence/), which doesn't cover tremorsense and scent, but there are easy ways around those (fly and mask your scent) that can themselves be countered sensibly without this kind of escalating phallus assessment.


No, the fact that Lurker in Darkness can be considered necessary for an entire archetype (as was it's 3.5 predecessor, Darkstalker) is what's stupid. The fact that a single ability, that becomes ever more ridiculously common as you move up in level, can entirely shut down every sneaky character ever, should never have been a thing. At least Lurker still allows a roll against Stealth.

Sneaking past a BOSS is not "entirely necessary" in any game. You can still have your class fantasy against their mooks and even elites. The OP optimizing their one-trick pony to this degree made such an arms race inevitable. And Mind Blank in feat form, especially as a feat with so few prereqs, is silly to me.

[Eldariel]

Good call. OP did say the character has permanent Detect Magic active. Also very unlikely he got a +48 bonus to stealth without any magic item (though these can be made "invisible" with a few castings of Magic Aura)

Aye, even Magic Aura itself would ping as faint illusion so it doesn't accomplish much far as hiding totally goes.

[Zanos]

I think lurker in darkness is fine, Hellcat Stealth is what's broken. While I agree that making stealth irrelevant with a common monster ability is bad, HiPS and equivalents essentially make you invincible because it has no counter other than massively impractical skill investments, not to mention that stealh has unique bonuses, like size.

The DM is probably homebrewing something so you actually have to interact with his NPC. Bad form if homebrew wasn't on the table before, but there's a solid argument you forced his hand.

[Necroticplague]

Sneaking past a BOSS is not "entirely necessary" in any game. You can still have your class fantasy against their mooks and even elites.
......? Did you miss the rest of my post where I'm basically perfectly agreeing with this?


Sounds like fiat because you autowin all fights with little to no recourse. Or at least can always get the jump on someone. He didn't want to trivializing the boss fight. Unless every one is playing at that level of optimization In which case yeah they would take the steps needed to protect themselves.
This. All enemies fighting at a massive disadvantage (flat-footed, -2, can't precision, need to grope around to even find where you are) is acceptable when it's nameless chattel that die like flies, but considerably less so against anyone who's supposed to be a challenge.


The OP optimizing their one-trick pony to this degree made such an arms race inevitable.
Ah yes, so attempting to be good at one thing should be met with it being made irrelevant at the most pivotal moment. That's an entirely healthy way to run things that surely won't leave anyone feeling bitter or cheated at the end.


And Mind Blank in feat form, especially as a feat with so few prereqs, is silly to me.
Huh? Mind blank in feat form? This is so unrelated to Mind Blank, I'm not even sure where to start. The only commonality is immunity to some divinations. Frankly, I find mind blank is more common for its mind-control resistance than its scrying resistance.

[Hua]

Ah yes, so attempting to be good at one thing should be met with it being made irrelevant at the most pivotal moment. That's an entirely healthy way to run things that surely won't leave anyone feeling bitter or cheated at the end.



Not true at all.
Being 'good at one thing' is MUCH less likely to trick the Boss. First, if you have any history or even some minions that got away to report back, it is likely he knows about strong or frequently used abilities. Bosses are much more likely to be able to negate them.

Second, things like stealth are generally of use against the rank and file bad guys. Good for getting to the Boss, but rarely of use against the Boss. Bosses have more experience, more magic, and more powers. Things they know about, even if they can't counter directly, they hire minions to cover that exact thing. As was mentioned above, all he would need is a single minion concentrating on detecting magic and use a Message spell to whisper it to the Boss, who then calls you out on it.

Third, while we have no information about the Boss you faced, can we assume he has well above normal, and even above the party, stats in Int and Wis? It is easy to understand how someone with high strength has an advantage in combat. High mental abilities are more often represented in being several steps ahead of others. Having thought through the possibilities and come up with counters. Maybe he just out thought you.

Single trick strategy rarely works against the Boss. if he got fooled that easily he would have been replaced by one of his minions long ago.

[SangoProduction]

.
Ah yes, so attempting to be good at one thing should be met with it being made irrelevant at the most pivotal moment. That's an entirely healthy way to run things that surely won't leave anyone feeling bitter or cheated at the end. [/COLOR]

Um... I mean... If you're an uber charger, with 100,000,000,000 DPR....and the boss happens to fly... and you suddenly can do nothing but sit on your thumbs, because you didn't so much as pack a sling... you probably over specialized.

Yes, Pathfinder, especially for martials, basically requires specialization (an absurd amount by any measure, quintuply so for any CMB build), but probably not to that degree.

[Efrate]

Depending on previous mooks, they might have no idea who or what he was, with no way to detect him. Most likely they would assume invisibility and prepping for that would not help at all.

[Necroticplague]

Um... I mean... If you're an uber charger, with 100,000,000,000 DPR....and the boss happens to fly... and you suddenly can do nothing but sit on your thumbs, because you didn't so much as pack a sling... you probably over specialized.

There's a big difference between you making the mistake of not prepping for basic counters, and the DM fiating your ability to obsolescence.

[Psyren]

Ah yes, so attempting to be good at one thing should be met with it being made irrelevant at the most pivotal moment. That's an entirely healthy way to run things that surely won't leave anyone feeling bitter or cheated at the end.

Please, there are so many RPGs where the boss is resistant to tactics that has gotten you past the mooks. If anything, expecting your one-trick pony to coast you through every challenge is the unhealthy attitude.



The only commonality is immunity to some divinations.

That's what I'm referring to. It's practically Vecna-blooded in one feat. (And then people wonder why GMs go over third-party and homebrew with a fine-toothed comb, when it's allowed at all.)

[Zanos]

There's a big difference between you making the mistake of not prepping for basic counters, and the DM fiating your ability to obsolescence.
While I don't like the fiat "the room gives him +30 to perception" is technically not fiat and would do the same thing. In any case I think the real problem is that both Ubercharges and Stealth are extremely binary tactics. If they work, your opponents are all dead. If they don't, you are useless and probably also dead.

[Necroticplague]

Please, there are so many RPGs where the boss is resistant to tactics that has gotten you past the mooks. If anything, expecting your one-trick pony to coast you through every challenge is the unhealthy attitude.
The fact a lot of other games have lazy design doesn't excuse lazy DMing. And simply slapping fiat immunity around because you can't think of an interesting way to ramp up a challenge is lazy.
There's a fair line between 'coasting through every challenge' and 'not abruptly being made useless through no foreseeable fault of mine'. You can ramp up a challenge without shutting down abilities.

That's what I'm referring to. It's practically Vecna-blooded in one feat. (And then people wonder why GMs go over third-party and homebrew with a fine-toothed comb, when it's allowed at all.)....I'm not sure imperfect resistance to very specific classes of divinations (still get Perception vs. Stealth, only agaisnt sense-enhancing ones) compares even remotely to a blanket immunity to all divinations in any reasonable fashion.

[lord_khaine]

The fact a lot of other games have lazy design doesn't excuse lazy DMing. And simply slapping fiat immunity around because you can't think of an interesting way to ramp up a challenge is lazy.
There's a fair line between 'coasting through every challenge' and 'not abruptly being made useless through no foreseeable fault of mine'. You can ramp up a challenge without shutting down abilities.

Except as previously noted stealth is rather binary. Either you can see though it, or you cant.
And it is troublesome to increase the difficulty in a meaningful way.


....I'm not sure imperfect resistance to very specific classes of divinations (still get Perception vs. Stealth, only agaisnt sense-enhancing ones) compares even remotely to a blanket immunity to all divinations in any reasonable fashion.

It has just about all the important bits you would want there. Making it impossible to cheat and use magic to find you while hiding.
While also adding protection against the usual counters like blindsight or tremorsense.
For a single feat.

[Incorrect]

The Gm is allowed to add abilities that you as a player do not have access to. He can even make abilities up.
I personally give all my end bosses the "immune to bull****" ability, so we can actually have a cool fight in stead of leaving everyone feeling cheated because the boss failed a spot check.

I might even feel a little back side hurt, if Im having a cool evil dialog with the players, but one player is interrupting the roleplaying.

The boss probably had an equally broken ability called "immune to Hellcat stealth and lurker in darkness", because it is the GMs job to challenge the characters.

I know it sounds harsh, but you already challenged him on this and was told that what happened was a deliberate choice.

[Florian]

Note: I use SKR's clarification which makes Hellcat Stealth work at all light levels.

My character employs both Hellcat Stealth and Lurker in Darkness (the SoP variant (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc29), if that matters). During the boss's dialogue with the party I was flying around to find out where the probably invisible enemy, but got called out by the boss without being told to make a Stealth roll. So I'm wondering which rule was used to break my stealth automatically. Is there a possibility? I can't ask my GM as we are not finished by the encounter, yet I need to know if there is a chance that there is a ruling error while it can be still corrected. At least I'd like to know if it is possible without resorting to GM fiat.

Certain vision modes make any kind of stealth obsolete.

[Psyren]

The fact a lot of other games have lazy design doesn't excuse lazy DMing.

If you consider challenging the players (you know, my job) to be "lazy DMing" then I can only thank the stars you won't ever be at any table I run.



It has just about all the important bits you would want there. Making it impossible to cheat and use magic to find you while hiding.
While also adding protection against the usual counters like blindsight or tremorsense.
For a single feat.

With barely any prereqs, no less. Utter bollocks.

[Manyasone]

With barely any prereqs, no less. Utter bollocks.
To be fair, 3.5's darkstalker feat requires nothing to pick up

[Efrate]

It's a feat tax, if you are going to stealth you need it because a lot of (most?) enemies have a special sense that detects you otherwise. If you want to sneak you need lurker or darkstalker.

I think hellcat stealth is great because it lets you hide in plain sight which is hard to get otherwise. Feat taxes suck to be able to do your trick well enough to be largely useful, but they do let you do it.

[Necroticplague]

If you consider challenging the players (you know, my job) to be "lazy DMing" then I can only thank the stars you won't ever be at any table I run.
Theres a wide gulf between 'challenging player' and 'completely shutting down abilities'.
Simply saying 'nope, that doesn't work, because screw you', in order to challenge somebody is lazy. Yes, actually coming up with foreseeable tactics that mitigates their advantage isn't always easy. But it's the appropriate action.

With barely any prereqs, no less. Utter bollocks.
Considering the things that it soft-counters don't have any real prerequisites, why is that BS? If the hard-counter to stealth doesn't have prereqs, why should the soft-counter to those counters?

[Elkad]

Stealth/Perception really need layers of bonuses and penalties.

If someone is hiding you can detect them via sight, sound, scent, touch, telepathy, lifeforce, etc. Every one of those abilities you have would give you a bonus to the Perception roll. (probably in the +8 range)
Meanwhile every one of those things the stealther is undetectable to would counteract those bonuses, but not actually make him immune to detection.

To take one example. Listen check. Even if the character is perfectly silent, his body might occlude distant sounds, making him detectable anyway. A higher level Silence spell might actually make him transparent to sound, giving a bigger bonus.

[Psyren]

Theres a wide gulf between 'challenging player' and 'completely shutting down abilities'.
Simply saying 'nope, that doesn't work, because screw you', in order to challenge somebody is lazy. Yes, actually coming up with foreseeable tactics that mitigates their advantage isn't always easy. But it's the appropriate action.

There's a wide gulf between "this doesn't work on the boss" and "completely shutting down abilities" too. The player who bets all their chips on a one-trick pony is just as lazy.



Considering the things that it soft-counters don't have any real prerequisites, why is that BS? If the hard-counter to stealth doesn't have prereqs, why should the soft-counter to those counters?

They have plenty of prereqs actually. You can't just decide to get greensight or mindsight on your character one day regardless of build. It's certainly more involved in most cases than "I spend 6 skill ranks."

[Eldariel]

Except as previously noted stealth is rather binary. Either you can see though it, or you cant.
And it is troublesome to increase the difficulty in a meaningful way.

Well, Perception has range penalties. Perception in the right ballpark works up close but not at a distance or with penalties making for a nice bit of interaction. Same with stealth: one thing to be still and quite another to be taking attack actions. Various spells do offer interactive answers as well.


It has just about all the important bits you would want there. Making it impossible to cheat and use magic to find you while hiding.
While also adding protection against the usual counters like blindsight or tremorsense.
For a single feat.

Eh, Vecna-Blooded makes you FADE FROM MEMORY. That makes all past divinations on you moot and makes all deity knowledge dependent spells useless avoiding the easiest meand to bypass sight immunity. It also makes it impossible to use divination to gain info on you. A vastly powerful STRATEGIC ability, while Lurker is just a tactical too. Lurker only matters when you're fighting, not when determining who has the initiative and information advantage.

[stack]

If there is a problem, I think it is more in optimizing a stealth check to the point that you can take a -10 penalty (hellcat stealth) and still be undetectable (by being off the RNG) by an enemy that presumably has more HD than you have class levels, making the DM feel he has to take extraordinary measures. If a 'boss' has a roughly 50/50 chance (better odds if closer/attacking) of pinpointing you at a reasonable combat range in any given round, the boss isn't completely hosed and the player's investment isn't wasted.

Over-optimizing a single trick is bad for the game. The sky is blue, ice is cold, etc.

[Lirya]

How to beat Hellcat Steatlh + Lurker in Darkness?

Optimize your Perception more than your opponent optimized stealth? Nobody expected the boss to have a Perception modifier of ~80.

Honestly the problem with both Perception and Stealth is that they can be optimized to be off RNG compared to someone who only invested full ranks + high ability modifier + (normal +5) competence item + feats. I don't mind that 3.5/pf skills can move you off RNG compared to people who aren't especially stealthy/perceptive, but spells like Acute Senses are plain stupid.

[Jack_Simth]

Honestly the problem with both Perception and Stealth is that they can be optimized to be off RNG compared to someone who only invested full ranks + high ability modifier + (normal +5) competence item + feats. I don't mind that 3.5/pf skills can move you off RNG compared to people who aren't especially stealthy/perceptive, but spells like Acute Senses are plain stupid.
Hadn't seen that one before... checking...

Oh. It's basically "See Invisibility" for 4th/6th spell level casters, with a bit of a kicker, as suitable for still being a 2nd level spell for non-9th spell level casters.

[Zanos]

Hadn't seen that one before... checking...

Oh. It's basically "See Invisibility" for 4th/6th spell level casters, with a bit of a kicker, as suitable for still being a 2nd level spell for non-9th spell level casters.
Psychics get 9ths, actually.

I think I remember an alchemist using high level potions of acute senses with chemical allocation to scout.

[Sho]

Note: I use SKR's clarification which makes Hellcat Stealth work at all light levels.
Do you have a link handy?

[EldritchWeaver]

So I did discuss now with the GM, how this was supposed to work. He said that I had magic items for which the boss could scan for with detect magic. Now that is a bit of a conundrum, since the SoP LiD doesn't explain how it interacts with the core spell. If detect magic works like a divination, it can go through. If not, it would be foiled. Still, the GM mentioned the fallback of a fiat, he would have used instead in that case.

Regarding LiD as broken: I think that hard-counters are bad and LiD soft-counters them. The fact that stealthing requires you to beat every opponent or otherwise you are screwed is another problem, but I don't have an answer for. To put it simple, if you can't be reasonable that you aren't detected, why try at all? That seems to me an even worse solution.


"Called out" how?

Regular divinations still work. So he is likely to know you exist and accompany the party. Is it possible he just bluffed?

BBEG says, while waving vaguely in your direction "You all, including your invisible flying friend over there, are going to die."

The boss wasn't visible, I could only hear his voice (also it was unknown, if the voice was just a projection). So while people talked, I said I would move around to search for the guy. And the boss said something to the effect "Stop moving!". So I wasn't attempting to avoid the boss either, just trying to figure out, if he was invisible or not.


Do you have a link handy?

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2j6vu?Pathfinder-Companion-Cheliax#35


Certain vision modes make any kind of stealth obsolete.

Which ones are you referring to? Would they beat Lurker in Darkness?

[Florian]

Your gm is basically correct. Spells or abilities that target an area instead of an object/person/character will still generate some kind of result and are not hindered by HS + LiD. Unless you're very thorough with Magic Aura, your equipment will generate a "ping" on the map, as would stuff like detect thoughts or even a simple detect alignment spell.

[Jack_Simth]

Your gm is basically correct. Spells or abilities that target an area instead of an object/person/character will still generate some kind of result and are not hindered by HS + LiD. Unless you're very thorough with Magic Aura, your equipment will generate a "ping" on the map, as would stuff like detect thoughts or even a simple detect alignment spell.

Except that with Lurker In Darkness (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/lurker-in-darkness-general/), the phrasing is:
Benefit: Creatures using unusual forms of sensory perception such as blindsight, greensight, or tremorsense cannot automatically foil your use of Stealth; such creatures must make a Perception check as normal to detect you when you make use of the Stealth skill. This feat foils indirect detection (such as a creature using detect magic to search for your magical items while you are using Stealth) in the manner described above, but has no effect on psi-like abilities, powers, spells, spell-like abilities, and/or supernatural abilities specifically used to uncover information about you rather than enhancing the user’s perception, such as the augury spell.(Emphasis added)

So if the 3rd party feat Lurker In Darkness is in play, Arcane Sight, Aura Sight, Detect Magic, Detect Good, et cetera all still require the user make a Perception check.

[heavyfuel]

Except that with Lurker In Darkness (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/lurker-in-darkness-general/), the phrasing is:(Emphasis added)

So if the 3rd party feat Lurker In Darkness is in play, Arcane Sight, Aura Sight, Detect Magic, Detect Good, et cetera all still require the user make a Perception check.

He was flying and he does have permanent detect magic on him. Unlike magic items, Spell themselves aren't covered by Lurker and could be detected.

[upho]

Your gm is basically correct. Spells or abilities that target an area instead of an object/person/character will still generate some kind of result and are not hindered by HS + LiD. Unless you're very thorough with Magic Aura, your equipment will generate a "ping" on the map, as would stuff like detect thoughts or even a simple detect alignment spell.The original LiD by DSP (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/lurker-in-darkness-general/) specifically counters any such methods (it's in fact one of the main purposes of the feat):

"This feat foils indirect detection (such as a creature using detect magic to search for your magical items while you are using Stealth) in the manner described above, but has no effect on psi-like abilities, powers, spells, spell-like abilities, and/or supernatural abilities specifically used to uncover information about you rather than enhancing the user’s perception, such as the augury spell."

But it seems the SoP version is far less clear on the matter, replacing the above second sentence with:

"Lurker in Darkness foils divination sphere sense abilities in the manner described above, but has no effect on sphere, spell-like and/or supernatural abilities specifically used to uncover information about you rather than enhancing the user’s perception, such as with the divination sphere divine abilities."

However, I think the last part starting with "but has no effect" at least implies that abilities not "specifically used to uncover information about you" would be foiled by the feat, as does the fact that this is specifically mentioned in the original version. That is, I suspect at least the RAI is that using generic/"impersonal" low level stuff such as detect magic/thoughts/alignment/etc to counter Stealth is prevented also by the SoP version of LiD, while neither version of the feat counters any stuff searching for specific things, such as you personally or a certain unique item you carry. Which in turn also means that at least a somewhat intelligent and creative BBEG with access to some basic divination typically needs very little prior info about you to bypass LiD by "making it personal", so to speak.


Note: I use SKR's clarification which makes Hellcat Stealth work at all light levels.How does SKR's clarification make you believe HS "work at all light levels"? AFAICT, the quote from him says nothing to support this:
Questions regarding the feat Hellcat Stealth. Is this meant to work like the Hide in Plain Sight class feature? Do you need cover/concealment?

Considering it is meant to resemble the Hellcat special ability I almost want to treat it like invisibility only with stealth checks.
They work similarly. HS trumps the need for cover/concealment, but you have a penalty on the check. HIPS trumps the need for cover/concealment, but it requires a nearby shadow, and has no penalty.What SKR leaves out - probably because it's clearly stated in the feat benefit and he assumed it was already known and understood by all - is that HS only trumps the need for cover/concealment in bright or normal light (my emphasis):

"You may make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, but at a -10 penalty."

In short, I can't see how HS does anything in any areas darker than normal light. In addition, I'm also unable to see how HS or LiD helps you avoid darkvision or low-light vision in an area of dim light or darkness (which grants you concealment against creatures with normal vision).

But since I have a history of some selective blindness when it comes to RAW and rules interactions, something obvious may very well be hiding from me in plain sight. If so, perhaps someone could shine a light on whatever it is I'm failing to detect and enlighten me? I don't like being kept in the dark...

(Sorry 'bout the pun fiesta, I just couldn't control myself...)

[Mehangel]

"Lurker in Darkness foils divination sphere sense abilities in the manner described above, but has no effect on sphere, spell-like and/or supernatural abilities specifically used to uncover information about you rather than enhancing the user’s perception, such as with the divination sphere divine abilities."


Spheres of Power divides all Divination sphere abilities into two distinct groups: Divine abilities and Sense abilities. Rather than try to write out a complicated definition or list out each individual talent or ability of what exactly Lurker in Darkness can and cannot protect against, I as the author of the Diviner's Handbook found it easier to simply state that Lurker in Darkness protects against (sense) talents and abilities, but does not protect against (divine) talents and abilities. So while this does in-fact allow SoP's variant of detect magic to work in locating a creature with the feat (something the original feat actually shut down), it does simplify the feat. It should also be noted that using (divine) talents and abilities generally requires 10 minutes of casting, and full-round concentration each round (unless you invest into the sphere).

[zergling.exe]

How does SKR's clarification make you believe HS "work at all light levels"? AFAICT, the quote from him says nothing to support this:What SKR leaves out - probably because it's clearly stated in the feat benefit and he assumed it was already known and understood by all - is that HS only trumps the need for cover/concealment in bright or normal light (my emphasis):

"You may make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, but at a -10 penalty."

In short, I can't see how HS does anything in any areas darker than normal light. In addition, I'm also unable to see how HS or LiD helps you avoid darkvision or low-light vision in an area of dim light or darkness (which grants you concealment against creatures with normal vision).

But since I have a history of some selective blindness when it comes to RAW and rules interactions, something obvious may very well be hiding from me in plain sight. If so, perhaps someone could shine a light on whatever it is I'm failing to detect and enlighten me? I don't like being kept in the dark...

(Sorry 'bout the pun fiesta, I just couldn't control myself...)

Your reading of it looks right to me. Nothing in that clarification says that HS no longer is limited to normal or bright light, just that it functions as HiPS at those light levels with a penalty and no other requirements.

[Psyren]

Yes, in Dim light or Darkness HS doesn't apply. SKR was probably just pointing out that you can naturally make stealth checks in such lighting anyway, so having HS lets you try to stealth everywhere.

It does not mean that you will successfully defeat someone staring at you with their Darkvision or True Seeing in such conditions.

[Jack_Simth]

He was flying and he does have permanent detect magic on him. Unlike magic items, Spell themselves aren't covered by Lurker and could be detected.
It's "such as" in parenthesis. Meant as explanatory text, not exhaustive examples. Detect Magic to ID the spot of a Fly spell is still "indirect detection" which LiD protects against.

[heavyfuel]

It's "such as" in parenthesis. Meant as explanatory text, not exhaustive examples. Detect Magic to ID the spot of a Fly spell is still "indirect detection" which LiD protects against.

Totally up to DM. Clearly his DM doesn't think so.