Theory Craft

[UrielVeltrin]

I am possibly joining a new group because my work schedule changed and allows me to game at times (yay!) I am new to 5th edition and hail back to the good ol days of To Hit Armor Class 0.

But anyways, I am curious about building a new character and want to lay out progression map. I want to do something that I find odd and out of character for me and play something unusual.
I am thinking of mixing the Warlock (HexBlade) and Paladin for some crazy good nova damage imho.

But, I am also wondering if a 3 level dip in fighter might be a worthy time investment. I dont really gain any proficiency bonuses, but I do get alot of class features that can be used to bulk up the short rest downfall of a paladin. I think only a 3 level dip in to get a archetype I was thinking EK for diversity of spell options, or maybe Battle Master for some cool looking attacks and such.

Anyone think this is worth it?

Or would I be better suited to doing just the dual class option.
Progression would be
Warlock,
Warlock,
Fighter,
Fighter,
Fighter,
Paladin +6
then dip back to warlock i think.

Thoughts of the playground?

[Brundle]

A few things to keep in mind scourge aasimar adds a good chunk of free dmg each round, and invocations like lord of flie's and life drinker also add a solid amount of guaranteed damage.
if your dm will let you be an oath breaker you can get a little extra damage there as well , I have a character like this that went paladin then broke his oath when he became a warlock(hexblade)

I recommend the paladin levels first so you get heavy armor, if you plan to use medium its not a issue


one thing to look at is if your dm would let you use your smites while in a rage, reckless and frenzied attack would add a lot of potential damage, would require a little extra str and med armor. I think the attack and advantage makes up for tho

[Speely]

Whether you start Fighter, Hexblade, or Paladin, go 5 levels first for Extra Attack. It very much makes any build you could envision given the potential classes involved much better.

That said, I love the Hexblade/Battlemaster combo a lot. The "best" way is to start Fighter for the Con save and early fighting style, but this can be problematic if you dump Str for a high Cha. You can make this work by being a Dex fighter, but you will still be delaying some clutch stuff.

My favorite way is going Warlock to 5 straight away. Screw a Con save, you are a rock star. Plus, Wisdom is a great save to have as well, and is actually preferable imo. Failing a Wis save often means you are very screwed.

Cons: Armor Class. Unless you go sword and board + Defense Style and/or burn a feat on Medium Armor Master (with a good Dex,) you are pretty easy to hit, and you don't have the spell slots to burn on the Shield spell, really.

Pros: Once you hit 5 Hexblade, you can dip 3 into Fighter for Battlemaster and get great benefits, while the options that Maneuvers open up help to further mitigate your low amount of spell slots. Super-versatile. Totally able to kick butt without spell slots at all.

Semi-Pro: You can go Duelist Style and gain a decent damage AND defense boost by going sword and board. Or take Polearm Master for offense and Defense as a style. Lots of ways to nuance your offense vs defense.

[Taebyn]

A lot of people really dislike warlock pally multiclass. Some feel like you should lose your pally abilities. Check with your DM imo.

[Brundle]

A lot of people really dislike warlock pally multiclass. Some feel like you should lose your pally abilities. Check with your DM imo.

Ya, That's why I recommended oath breaker but that's also semi restricted as well

[UrielVeltrin]

A lot of people really dislike warlock pally multiclass. Some feel like you should lose your pally abilities. Check with your DM imo.

Im sorry I should of clarified that I am doing so with permission from the DM. Its going to be a story arc in the campaign.

[MaxWilson]

A lot of people really dislike warlock pally multiclass. Some feel like you should lose your pally abilities. Check with your DM imo.

This is less of an issue than it used to be. You could have a Paladin of Devotion/Celestial Warlock/Divine Soul Sorcerer multiclass and still be 100% unambiguously, heroically good.

[Taebyn]

Im sorry I should of clarified that I am doing so with permission from the DM. Its going to be a story arc in the campaign.

Nice, should be a blast.
As far as a dip for nova, hard to beat fighter. Action surge and a fighting style. Pick your flavor of fighter if you want to go to 3.


This is less of an issue than it used to be. You could have a Paladin of Devotion/Celestial Warlock/Divine Soul Sorcerer multiclass and still be 100% unambiguously, heroically good.

The OP did say hexblade.

[kamap]

I'd go for paladin 2 and the rest warlock.

Heavy armor, smites (Always with highest amount of dice with warlock short rest slots), 9th level spells, some healing capability, EB for those pesky moments you can't get into melee range.
Not having to care about an oath.
You can fit 3 levels of fighter in somewehre aswell.

[Nifft]

Paladin 2 / Warlock ++ -> fast access to Warlock abilities, a tiny bit of flexibility on level 1 spells prepared, Smite is good.

Paladin 6 / Warlock ++ -> Extra Attack, Aura, two levels of Paladin spells (more preparation flexibility), Smite remains good.

Single-class Hexblade Warlock -> fastest access to Warlock abilities, which can be frankly awesome. Pick up 2 levels of Paladin whenever you feel let down by your next Warlock level, which might be never, since Hexblade is pretty great all the way through.

Single-class Paladin -> fastest access to Extra Attack and Aura, enough Paladin slots to Smite and also cast (albeit more judiciously), excellent high-level abilities with most Oaths, very good high-level spells with newest source books.


There are a lot of ways to use the excellent tools that 5e provides. Any of these will be pretty great.

[Exocist]

Paladin 2 / Warlock ++ -> fast access to Warlock abilities, a tiny bit of flexibility on level 1 spells prepared, Smite is good.

Paladin 6 / Warlock ++ -> Extra Attack, Aura, two levels of Paladin spells (more preparation flexibility), Smite remains good.

Single-class Hexblade Warlock -> fastest access to Warlock abilities, which can be frankly awesome. Pick up 2 levels of Paladin whenever you feel let down by your next Warlock level, which might be never, since Hexblade is pretty great all the way through.

Single-class Paladin -> fastest access to Extra Attack and Aura, enough Paladin slots to Smite and also cast (albeit more judiciously), excellent high-level abilities with most Oaths, very good high-level spells with newest source books.


There are a lot of ways to use the excellent tools that 5e provides. Any of these will be pretty great.

Paladin 7 or 8/Warlock ++ might also be good if your DM allows Oathbreaker for that CHA mod to damage.

I think it would be better to do Paladin 1/Hexblade 1 (CHA for attack and damage early)/Paladin +1-7/Warlock++

It's pretty dependent on how often your DM hands out short rests though - Sacred Weapon (from Oath of Devotion) will probably add more damage than Oathbreaker will (also less level investment and not required to be EEEVVVILLLL), but if your DM never hands out short rests it will only be useful for nuking (which is what you do best anyway?)

[Lombra]

What is it that you want from paladin? You could go straight warlock and get better spell slots earlier. The dual smite really isn't worth the permanent 2-level delay on spells imo.

[Fire Tarrasque]

What is it that you want from paladin? You could go straight warlock and get better spell slots earlier. The dual smite really isn't worth the permanent 2-level delay on spells imo.

Seeing as Paly mainly uses their spell slots for smiting and smiting, that's fair.
I believe your going Warlock for Hexblade, but if you want to dip into something for bonus smite, of all things, BARD can serve. It gives more straight up spell slots for smiting, and College of Whispers gives you another 2d6 "smite" in psychic blades not tied to spell slots. College of Blades is College of Blades, but the flourishes add a bit of versatility, if less raw power.

I'd suggest the Champion subclass. Paladins are dice-heavy, and if you grab Eldritch Smite so are Warlocks. Twice the crits means a significant damage increase. Battlemaster gives you a nice blend of versatility and power. You actually probably want to take this if there are any abilities there that can really accent your party members, like trip attack for grapplers or Conquestadins. Eldritch Knight gives you a bit more versatility than anything else, but you also get even more smite!

I'll just list a few builds and their advantages/disadvantages.

Paladin
Paladin
Paladin
Paladin
Paladin
Fighter
Fighter
Fighter
Warlock/Hexblade...

It's nice. You never want to delay grabbing extra attacks, and Paladin's starting proficiencies are great. However, it's spread out, and your Paladin levels will become obselete and you'll probably fall behind in damage after too short a time for my taste.

Paladin
Paladin
Paladin
Paladin
Paladin
Warlock/Hexblade...

This is a much denser build, without the dip into fighter. This means Paladin abilities can probably carry you longer, because you'll be getting to high power Hexblade help much faster.

Hexblade...

Yeah, other people have talked about this enough.

Now, a build that's not quite what we were talking about, but can nonetheless nova with the best of them.

Paladin
Paladin
Bard/Whispers...

I know I mentioned this earlier, but seriously. Whispers Bard get's it's own smite, along with better spell slots than Paladin. At 5th level, you have a good 3d8+2d6, compared to pure Paladin's 2d8+Extra Attack. However, once you hit 8th level, you're doing 3d6+4d8, opposed by Paladin's 4d8+extra attack.

The big downside here is that you're playing a Bard. If you don't want to play a Bard, then don't play a Bard.

[UrielVeltrin]

Seeing as Paly mainly uses their spell slots for smiting and smiting, that's fair.
I believe your going Warlock for Hexblade, but if you want to dip into something for bonus smite, of all things, BARD can serve. It gives more straight up spell slots for smiting, and College of Whispers gives you another 2d6 "smite" in psychic blades not tied to spell slots. College of Blades is College of Blades, but the flourishes add a bit of versatility, if less raw power.

I'd suggest the Champion subclass. Paladins are dice-heavy, and if you grab Eldritch Smite so are Warlocks. Twice the crits means a significant damage increase. Battlemaster gives you a nice blend of versatility and power. You actually probably want to take this if there are any abilities there that can really accent your party members, like trip attack for grapplers or Conquestadins. Eldritch Knight gives you a bit more versatility than anything else, but you also get even more smite!

I'll just list a few builds and their advantages/disadvantages.

Paladin
Paladin
Paladin
Paladin
Paladin
Fighter
Fighter
Fighter
Warlock/Hexblade...

It's nice. You never want to delay grabbing extra attacks, and Paladin's starting proficiencies are great. However, it's spread out, and your Paladin levels will become obselete and you'll probably fall behind in damage after too short a time for my taste.

Paladin
Paladin
Paladin
Paladin
Paladin
Warlock/Hexblade...

This is a much denser build, without the dip into fighter. This means Paladin abilities can probably carry you longer, because you'll be getting to high power Hexblade help much faster.

Hexblade...

Yeah, other people have talked about this enough.

Now, a build that's not quite what we were talking about, but can nonetheless nova with the best of them.

Paladin
Paladin
Bard/Whispers...

I know I mentioned this earlier, but seriously. Whispers Bard get's it's own smite, along with better spell slots than Paladin. At 5th level, you have a good 3d8+2d6, compared to pure Paladin's 2d8+Extra Attack. However, once you hit 8th level, you're doing 3d6+4d8, opposed by Paladin's 4d8+extra attack.

The big downside here is that you're playing a Bard. If you don't want to play a Bard, then don't play a Bard.

Would I stay as a bard for the remainder, or would you suggest a further dip back to hexblade at some point? I was thinking of going Oath of Vengeance, and I can honestly say that I've never looked at bard. I have since pulled up a guide to bards and see alot of syngry that can be done especially with that oath taken.... Hmmm.. ::strokes beard::

[Brundle]

Depending on how often you are geting into fights the champion might actually be a very bad choice as it wouldn't stack with hexblade's crit bonus, its only a short rest to regain it and most of the time you would be burning smites on major threat's

depending on the campaign if you want to dip fighter for surge you may get more from advantage on samurai or battlemaster

[UrielVeltrin]

Now the decisions start, as I need to start narrowing this down.

Does anyone see any benefit on taking more than two classes? I do like the extra smiting potential of Hexblade Warlock/ Paladin, but at the same time. Paladin/ Bard gives me great smiting potential as well and also can synergize very well from a thematic point.

I know it would be long and drawn out, and not optimal to take 3 classes. I would have to dump into one class to get it to a point where I get an extra attack before I multi class into another to keep it somewhat optimized from my understanding.

Again I'm new to the edition so I might be wrong. Thoughts of the playground?

[Nifft]

Again I'm new to the edition so I might be wrong. Thoughts of the playground?

Since you're new to the system, I'd honestly recommend just taking ONE class (probably Paladin, or Fighter, or Hexblade).

All classes* are good in 5e. Sword-people get nice things in 5e. You don't need to dumpster-dive for weird interactions. You can just pick something and be competent.

If you MUST take two classes for some reason, then I suggest either Paladin/Warlock or Paladin/Sorcerer. But you do not need to take two classes. Nearly any class can be great.



*) ... except the PHB Ranger. It's playable but it's not as good.

[UrielVeltrin]

Since you're new to the system, I'd honestly recommend just taking ONE class (probably Paladin, or Fighter, or Hexblade).

All classes* are good in 5e. Sword-people get nice things in 5e. You don't need to dumpster-dive for weird interactions. You can just pick something and be competent.

If you MUST take two classes for some reason, then I suggest either Paladin/Warlock or Paladin/Sorcerer. But you do not need to take two classes. Nearly any class can be great.



*) ... except the PHB Ranger. It's playable but it's not as good.


The DM has requested that we make unusual characters for story progression. and campaign elements

[Brundle]

Since you're new to the system, I'd honestly recommend just taking ONE class (probably Paladin, or Fighter, or Hexblade).
.

I agree if your'e newer to the system a pure paladin can be a great first character you start off a little basic testing the water's, and its not long before you have some extra tools and spells and by the end with enhanced smites capstones buffs and feat's you have a very capable character, There really isn't any need to try and brake the game in this edition.

some feats to keep in mind
Warcaster . cast spells as a AoO, and also advantage on con saves for concentration
resiliant . con saves helps for maintaining concentration on your buff's
great weapon master(if your dm allows it and your useing 2h) more dmg? always good?
lucky. rerolls are always good
sheild master . helps your dex save's if you dump dex
Sentinal. keeps the bad things near you

if you do end up multiclassing, a recap on some of the beter option's
a single lvl in warlock hexblade would get you cha for attack rolls and eldritch blast
{edit} later lvls in warlock add things like invocations, a knockdown smite, dodge like ability with hex curse, and alot of consistant cha based dmg
2 lvls in fighter gets you a small heal and action surge plus an extra combat style
3 lvls in fighter gets you ways to give yourself advantage
2 lvls in barbrian will get you reckless attacks
3 lvls in barbarian will get you a third attack at the cost of dissableing spell casting (may or may not interfere with your smites but check with your dm) or bear totem 1/2 dmg from almost everything
x lvls in sorc will get you meta magic and buffs like fly/haste

[Nifft]

The DM has requested that we make unusual characters for story progression. and campaign elements

So uh... Half-Orc Paladin, maybe? That's "unusual".

Or maybe a Tinker (Rock) Gnome Hexblade, with a steam-punk aesthetic, and a shoulder-mounted plasma cannon named "Reason" (which is actually your Eldritch Blast cantrip).

[UrielVeltrin]

So uh... Half-Orc Paladin, maybe? That's "unusual".

Or maybe a Tinker (Rock) Gnome Hexblade, with a steam-punk aesthetic, and a shoulder-mounted plasma cannon named "Reason" (which is actually your Eldritch Blast cantrip).

Sorry but that would not work.

As I stated in the original post, he wants us to do multiclass characters for story arc purposes.