[3.5] Blackguard's Skeletal Companion

[NontheistCleric]

A blackguard that has at least nine paladin levels gains the following:


Undead companion. In addition to the fiendish servant, the blackguard gains (at 5th level) a Medium-size skeleton or zombie as a companion. This companion cannot be turned or rebuked and gains all special bonuses as a fiendish servant when the blackguard gains levels.

In theory, if such a blackguard were to use, for example, a leShay (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/leshay.htm) as the base for a skeleton, since that technically provides a Medium skeleton, what would be a good use for this 52 HD (including minimum bonus HD from Blackguard) Fiendish Skeleton with an Intelligence score of at least 6?

[BowStreetRunner]

Just out of curiosity, how are you making this theoretical 52 HD skeleton? I think we'd need to know the method in order to determine what its properties actually are. "If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell."SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm)

[Mike Miller]

LeShay are my favorite ELH monster. I will need to remember to respond to this later when I have the time.

[OgresAreCute]

Just out of curiosity, how are you making this theoretical 52 HD skeleton? I think we'd need to know the method in order to determine what its properties actually are. "If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell."SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm)

The template says it can be added to any corporeal creature with a skeleton. The Blackguard feature says it gains a skeleton companion, without having to make it/acquire it themselves. I'd say this looks RAW-legal, the only thing is that the skeleton can't have been animated with the animate dead spell, which presumably doesn't matter since the blackguard isn't making the skeleton. I don't know much about necromancy in this edition, but I imagine there are more spells for creating skeletons than just animate dead, and the skeleton could always have been created with a plot device.

Interesting note: as far as I can see, the animate dead spell itself doesn't restrict the number of HD a skeleton can have, apart from the overall limit on how many HDs worth of undead you can animate per casting (2 * caster level), or (4 * caster level) if you're in a desecrated area.

[NontheistCleric]

Just out of curiosity, how are you making this theoretical 52 HD skeleton? I think we'd need to know the method in order to determine what its properties actually are. "If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell."SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm)


The template says it can be added to any corporeal creature with a skeleton. The Blackguard feature says it gains a skeleton companion, without having to make it/acquire it themselves. I'd say this looks RAW-legal, the only thing is that the skeleton can't have been animated with the animate dead spell, which presumably doesn't matter since the blackguard isn't making the skeleton. I don't know much about necromancy in this edition, but I imagine there are more spells for creating skeletons than just animate dead, and the skeleton could always have been created with a plot device.

OgresAreCute is right. There's nothing that indicates the Blackguard has to worry about where the skeleton comes from; they just have it. For the purposes of this exercise, let's just assume the Blackguard (or rather whoever is playing the Blackguard) can assign the skeleton's feats and skills to their liking.

[OgresAreCute]

For the purposes of this exercise, let's just assume the Blackguard (or rather whoever is playing the Blackguard) can assign the skeleton's feats and skills to their liking.

Skeletons are mindless, so they don't have any feats (except improved initiative) or skills, unless they get some from a blackguard feature.

[BowStreetRunner]

OgresAreCute is right. There's nothing that indicates the Blackguard has to worry about where the skeleton comes from; they just have it. For the purposes of this exercise, let's just assume the Blackguard (or rather whoever is playing the Blackguard) can assign the skeleton's feats and skills to their liking.
So would we then also assume that just the base template is applied? Or are things like Enhance Undead, Bolster Resistance, Corpsecrafter, Deadly Chill, Destruction Retribution, Hardened Flesh, Nimble Bones, etc., etc. on the table as well?

[NontheistCleric]

Skeletons are mindless, so they don't have any feats (except improved initiative) or skills, unless they get some from a blackguard feature.

The skeleton gains all the special bonuses of a fiendish servant, which means they get the Intelligence score listed in the fiendish servant table.


So would we then also assume that just the base template is applied? Or are things like Enhance Undead, Bolster Resistance, Corpsecrafter, Deadly Chill, Destruction Retribution, Hardened Flesh, Nimble Bones, etc., etc. on the table as well?

Just the base template is probably safest. After all, since the Blackguard is not actually creating this skeleton, there's no way for them to guarantee the skeleton getting those effects placed on it.

Choosing feats and skills, though, is something that is already often assumed in discussions about things like Leadership and would have to be done anyway since a normal leShay skeleton would not have any of those. Not that a leShay skeleton is exactly normal, of course...

[BowStreetRunner]

I'd think yo would want to take advantage of that Superior Two-Weapon Fighting. Since that is an Ex ability and the Skeleton template states "It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks." I would think this remains. However, there is that part where it also states "Because these weapons are extensions of its own body, the leShay does not take an attack or damage penalty for attacking with two weapons." So does that mean the Superior TWF only works with the LeShay weapons, which are a Su ability that it loses? Or can it be applied to some new weapons?

[OgresAreCute]

So does that mean the Superior TWF only works with the LeShay weapons, which are a Su ability that it loses? Or can it be applied to some new weapons?

One could argue that the part about leShay weapons is flavor text, and the relevant mechanical bit is "the leShay does not take an attack or damage penalty for attacking with two weapons" which doesn't specify it being those two weapons, or weapons gained from the leShay weapon feature. RAI seems crystal clear at least, but I suppose if your DM lets you use an epic creature as a follower then you're playing by silly-RAW to begin with.

Side note: Anyone else think it's kinda weird for an epic leveled fey with 50 hd to have 3 features and some spell-likes? I could understand if it was some mindless monster, but one would think a creature with a racial +22 to INT would bother getting some worthwhile features.

[GrayDeath]

No, they are smart enough to know that more features would make munchkins never ever leave them alone. ;)

[NontheistCleric]

Side note: Anyone else think it's kinda weird for an epic leveled fey with 50 hd to have 3 features and some spell-likes? I could understand if it was some mindless monster, but one would think a creature with a racial +22 to INT would bother getting some worthwhile features.

Not really, once you look at any of WoTC's attempts at balance, especially in early 3e.

I first thought it would be significant that this skeleton could take so many epic feats, and while it's not a meaningless fact, looking through the epic feats one realizes that many are not actually better or even worse than what one can get pre-epic.

[OgresAreCute]

Not really, once you look at any of WoTC's attempts at balance, especially in early 3e.

I first thought it would be significant that this skeleton could take so many epic feats, and while it's not a meaningless fact, looking through the epic feats one realizes that many are not actually better or even worse than what one can get pre-epic.

Well, the epic spellcaster feats are pretty good, at least :smalltongue:

[NontheistCleric]

Sadly, I was unable to find any ways to get ninth-level spellcasting onto this skeleton. Anyone else have any ideas?

[liquidformat]

Not really, once you look at any of WoTC's attempts at balance, especially in early 3e.

I first thought it would be significant that this skeleton could take so many epic feats, and while it's not a meaningless fact, looking through the epic feats one realizes that many are not actually better or even worse than what one can get pre-epic.

ya I think most of the mundane feats could be moved to being available starting somewhere between 5-10 without any issue. Take a look at feats like combat archery, it would be an ok feat at level 5 but at level 20 you have either given up archery because it kind of sucks for hopped into a prc that has given you this ability...