Why no Bardadin?

[Fire Tarrasque]

In the forums, you see a lot of things. Sorcadin is a fairly famous multiclass, quite possibly the most common one, and there are a fair few Palalocks (Waradins?), assumably tempted by Dual Smites.

But why aren't there any Bardadins?

Bard is one of the only actually useable Gishes. It has all the spell slots of Sorcerer, alongside two subclasses that directly accent the Paladin's sword abilities. They further push the Paladin's utility as support, and magical secrets can give you access to some of the SPELL smites only Paladins can really get otherwise. From Magical Secrets, Bard gets And almost everyone likes Bard! Bard is awesome!

On those two subclasses, College of Swords and Whispers.

Swords is fairly obvious, as it's all about the stabby stabby. Blade flourishes are a nice accent to smiting, especially with the incredibly powerful capstone.

Whispers effectively gives you ANOTHER smite in Psychic Blades, which can get to a rather ridiculous power at high levels. One use of Bardic Inspiration for 8d6 isn't exactly weak.

But that doesn't mean the rest are useless! Valor gives you even more combat buffs, along with the coveted extra attack. Lore gives you even more smite spells.
You can't really give a good reason for Glamour, but it's still a Bardadin!




So... why doesn't anyone play Bardadin? Has anyone here actually played Bardadin? Have I somehow done something helpful and inspired someone to be a Bardadin?
Probably not.
But seriously why doesn't anyone play Bardadin?

[Speely]

Because they are all playing Palabards.

On a serious note, for the reasons you stated, I think this is a good combo. One reason people don't do this more might be that it can be pretty generalist/versatile, and lots of players like to specialize/maximize their role in the party.

[Cerefel]

I've been wondering the same thing myself, but I think the simplest answer is that the bard list is missing many of the stronger melee spells such as shield and haste. While you can pick up these spells via magical secrets it takes much longer for them to come online that way, as well as having a lot of opportunity cost by not learning stronger off-list spells.

[Waterdeep Merch]

It's only because sorcadins and wardins have more synergistic advantages for smiting, really. Metamagics, SCAG cantrips, rechargeable spell slots- these are extremely powerful tools for smiting.

If you're willing to accept having tons of spell slots as enough of an upgrade to a paladin's smite capabilities (and it really is), you can expand your general capabilities, utility, and support power into the stratosphere with the bard dip instead.

I'm seriously considering it on my current ancients paladin if play continues past 11. I need 11 for the duel wielding concept I have, but after that a lore bard is way too flavorful and cool.

[sithlordnergal]

I think there are a few reasons:

1) As Cerefel mentioned, Bards lack decent combat spell options. Sure, they have Dissonant Whispers, and great battlefield control spells like Bane and Fairie Fire. But they lack spells like Haste, Fireball, or Shield. And unless you go Lore Bard, you don't get to have those spells till you reach 10 levels in Bard.

2) Bards lack decent ranged cantrips. Don't get me wrong, Vicious Mockery is a fine spell...for the debuff it provides. But it sorely lacks in damage. Sorcerers give you things like Firebolt and Chill Touch, while Warlocks give you Eldritch Blast. This shores up the Paladin's greatest weakness, ranged combat.

3) Bards lack access to the game changing Blade cantrips, I.E. Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade. Unless you want to spend your magical secrets on them of course. Those twi cantrips do amazing work on a Paladin, especially when combined with-

4) Quicken Spell. This plus a Blade cantrip, and Haste, basically turns your normal Soradin into a beast with 4 attacks, all of which they can smite. The Hexblade also brings in some pretty decent things, though I am not as well versed in Hexblades. But in the end, Quicken Spell and the Hexblade's class abilities and Hexblade Smite can make a deadlier Paladin then the Bard

[Nifft]

Because Bards are awesome enough that I never feel the need to dip into Paladin.

Also, with Sorcery points, I can do things that feel level-appropriate using lower-level spell slots, which compensates for the level loss.

[solidork]

I'm planning on playing a Glamour Bard 5/Oath of Conquest 7 as a Face/Support Tank in an upcoming high level campaign. I can use Mantle of Inspiration to quickly move my allies into attack position and use Aura of Conquest to prevent enemies from escaping. I mostly selected Bard spells for their out of combat utility, with things like Disguise Self, Suggestion, Enhance Ability and Tongues.(Plus Fear, of course)

[Specter]

Well, that's an easy question.

Because theorycrafters and powergamers hardly ever care about improving the team (where Bards shine), and always care about improving a character. This is the same reason why Valor Bard doesn't get much praise - they get Inspiration 2.0, while Lore and Swords can use their inspiration for themselves.

[Laserlight]

Paladins are there to mash faces; bards are more support-oriented.

[MaxWilson]

So... why doesn't anyone play Bardadin? Has anyone here actually played Bardadin? Have I somehow done something helpful and inspired someone to be a Bardadin?
Probably not.
But seriously why doesn't anyone play Bardadin?

For me it's because Bard goes better with other classes like warlock. If you want Wrathful Smite and groovy armor, take Hexblade 2. Paladin 2 offers nothing much: medium or heavy armor (depending on whether or not you start Paladin), additional MADness (Str 13 requirement), the possibility for Divine Smite (which isn't very good). Paladin 6 or 7 or 9 offers a lot more, but if you're not going to get 9th level spells because you invested 6-9 levels in Paladin, Bards are less tempting, so Warlocks and Sorcerers are relatively more common and have more of a short-term payoff and an equivalently-good long-term payoff. (For example, Paladin/Bard still has crummy ranged attacks, same as a single-class Paladin.)

So that's basically it: opportunity cost. If I wanted to play someone who was functionally similar to a Paladin 2/Bard X, I'd just play a straight-up Valor Bard.

[Aaron Underhand]

Well, that's an easy question.

Because theorycrafters and powergamers hardly ever care about improving the team (where Bards shine), and always care about improving a character. This is the same reason why Valor Bard doesn't get much praise - they get Inspiration 2.0, while Lore and Swords can use their inspiration for themselves.

Errr - slight correction IMHO - Lore Bard's cannot use the inspiration on themselves, but cutting words is an awesome combat aid for the whole party, and great for action economy....

[MaxWilson]

Errr - slight correction IMHO - Lore Bard's cannot use the inspiration on themselves, but cutting words is an awesome combat aid for the whole party, and great for action economy....

He didn't say "on themselves," only "for themselves." I believe the intended meaning was that a Lore Bard can use Cutting Words to prevent an enemy from hitting him with an attack or escaping from his grapple. Obviously you are correct that it can also be used for the benefit of others.

[Sorlock Master]

Because people have not thought about it at all that's why.

E.G. A 6 Paladin/ 6 Lore Bard has access to 5th level spells. Which can come from any class.

[Degwerks]

Because people have not thought about it at all that's why.

E.G. A 6 Paladin/ 6 Lore Bard has access to 5th level spells. Which can come from any class.

No they don't. Not in your example anyway.
A 6th paladin and 6 Lore Bard has access to 1st & 2nd paladin spells and 1st-3rd bard spells, plus 2 spells up to 3rd level from any class spell list. You do have a few 4th and 5th level spell slots to upcast some of them though.

[DarkKnightJin]

I might make an Ancients Pally and toss in 5 or 6 levels of Bard somewhere. Probably after the first 7 or 8 in Paladin for the goodies, though.

But even then, mostly for the high level stuff that gives. As in, short rest Inspiration, auras..
Honestly, getting 2 levels of Sorc or Warlock on my Paladin fits my general Pally idea a lot better.

Bard and Paladin both over great things by themselves. If you could build a gestalt Bardadin, you should totally go for it.
As it is with multiclassing.. you're giving up too many goodies from either class to really make it worthwile, IMO.

[jas61292]

I actually really love the Bard / Paladin Multiclass. Far more than either Warlock or Sorcerer. But I think the best way to make the most of the multiclass is very different than with those others. If you are a Sorcerer or Warlock Multiclass, you need at least 5 levels of Paladin in order to grab Extra Attack. As such, a multiclass is more of a true split, or a Sorcerer/Warlock dip. Bards are the opposite. Valor and Swords Bard get extra attack, so it can function well as either a even split, or as a Paladin dip. You only need to grab Divine Smite in order to be a smiting machine. This means you are only ever 2 levels behind in bard casting, and 1 level behind in total slots. That makes this combo far more of a pure caster that can also mix it up in melee as well as anyone, at the cost of not having as great direct combat spells.

The other big cost of this build is that it is not an immediate melee beast. Paladin / Sorcerer can start as Paladin until 5, and a straight Paladin is very much a melee monster that can also cast some spells. Smiting comes online at 2 and Extra Attack at 5. The Bard mix cannot get both extra attack and smite until level 8 if it wants to be mainly bard, and either has neither until 6 or must wait until 8 for extra attack. Which, of course, means no smiting. People love the nova, especially in theorycrafting, so the delay on that makes it less attractive to a lot of people.

But as has been mentioned overall the build is far more of a support mix that is also a nova monster. It is not a straight up solo guy.

[mormon_soldier]

As a valour bard, I kept looking into multiclassing into paladin the next level, but I kept finding that staying bard gave me what I wanted faster. It's just a good class.

[Crgaston]

I'm planning on playing a Glamour Bard 5/Oath of Conquest 7 as a Face/Support Tank in an upcoming high level campaign. I can use Mantle of Inspiration to quickly move my allies into attack position and use Aura of Conquest to prevent enemies from escaping. I mostly selected Bard spells for their out of combat utility, with things like Disguise Self, Suggestion, Enhance Ability and Tongues.(Plus Fear, of course)

This is the combo that intrigues me most. At Bard 6 you get the ability to cast bonus action Command spells every round for a minute. Ordering your foes to approach (within your aura) and grovel (go prone, effectively locking themselves in place) seems.... rather strong.

[Citan]

In the forums, you see a lot of things. Sorcadin is a fairly famous multiclass, quite possibly the most common one, and there are a fair few Palalocks (Waradins?), assumably tempted by Dual Smites.

But why aren't there any Bardadins?

Bard is one of the only actually useable Gishes. It has all the spell slots of Sorcerer, alongside two subclasses that directly accent the Paladin's sword abilities. They further push the Paladin's utility as support, and magical secrets can give you access to some of the SPELL smites only Paladins can really get otherwise. From Magical Secrets, Bard gets And almost everyone likes Bard! Bard is awesome!

On those two subclasses, College of Swords and Whispers.

Swords is fairly obvious, as it's all about the stabby stabby. Blade flourishes are a nice accent to smiting, especially with the incredibly powerful capstone.

Whispers effectively gives you ANOTHER smite in Psychic Blades, which can get to a rather ridiculous power at high levels. One use of Bardic Inspiration for 8d6 isn't exactly weak.

But that doesn't mean the rest are useless! Valor gives you even more combat buffs, along with the coveted extra attack. Lore gives you even more smite spells.
You can't really give a good reason for Glamour, but it's still a Bardadin!




So... why doesn't anyone play Bardadin? Has anyone here actually played Bardadin? Have I somehow done something helpful and inspired someone to be a Bardadin?
Probably not.
But seriously why doesn't anyone play Bardadin?


Well, that's an easy question.

Because theorycrafters and powergamers hardly ever care about improving the team (where Bards shine), and always care about improving a character. This is the same reason why Valor Bard doesn't get much praise - they get Inspiration 2.0, while Lore and Swords can use their inspiration for themselves.
Wow. That's a stupid preconception to be honest. You can be a great party helper as a Sorcadin, just pick Enhance Ability, Haste, Polymorph, Greater Invisibility or spells like that and you'll help party whatever situation you run into. Even "worse" if you pick Divine Soul that can grab Cleric spells (Extend Aid, Twin Warding Bond, Twin Healing Words, Distant Spare the Dying/Healing Words etc).
On the other side, you could also make a Whispers Bard / Vengeance Paladin that only cares about himself with Expertise in Stealth, using only spells for himself like Longstrider, Warding Wind, Enhance Ability of Greater Invisibility.
What matters about improving team is the mindset that makes it the goal to reach, not the way you choose to actually reach it.

Anyways...

Reasons why Sorcerers get prefered to Bards are imo...
1. Cantrips and Shield/Absorb Elements (which you can get with a single level dip).
2. Metamagics! Simply because those give you more latitude in playing a Paladin-based gish without harming too much your action economy (typically many people grab Quicken so they can use Extra Attack while casting a spell and/or Subtle to go sword and board without worrying about draw/sheathe economy or crave for an early Warcaster).
3. Last comes the variety of spells, with Sorcerer sporting many more non-concentration spells than Bard so it's easier to expand your options.

With that said, imo Bard is as powerful a dual-classing option than Sorcerer for a Paladin, although in a different way.
Action economy synergy will come by using Bardic Inspiration on a bonus action/reaction instead, or casting Healing Words as bonus action, or using a few of the bonus action concentration spells a Bard may have.
Expertise can help you offset a penalty (*cough* stealth in heavy armor *cough*) or make you extra good at something (*cough* Shield Master bashing *cough*).
Then archetypes can significantly enhance one aspect of Paladin: Swords/Whispers for damage/defense, Glamour for control, Lore for grabbing a Haste/Slow/Spirit Guardians/Circle of Power etc...

If you don't care about metamagics, Bard is probably a stronger option actually unless specific build needing low-level Sorcerer spell or archetype feature. When you bring metamagics into balance then fifty-fifty, it all depends on what you're looking for.
Myself, if I had to put metamagics aside, I'd always pick just one level of Sorcerer then multiclass into Bard because short-rest Bardic Inspiration, Expertise and spell choice are easy to fit into whatever kind of Paladin you want thanks to the various archetypes. :)
Thing is though... I do love metamagics. :)

[Specter]

Wow. That's a stupid preconception to be honest. You can be a great party helper as a Sorcadin, just pick Enhance Ability, Haste, Polymorph, Greater Invisibility or spells like that and you'll help party whatever situation you run into. Even "worse" if you pick Divine Soul that can grab Cleric spells (Extend Aid, Twin Warding Bond, Twin Healing Words, Distant Spare the Dying/Healing Words etc).
On the other side, you could also make a Whispers Bard / Vengeance Paladin that only cares about himself with Expertise in Stealth, using only spells for himself like Longstrider, Warding Wind, Enhance Ability of Greater Invisibility.
What matters about improving team is the mindset that makes it the goal to reach, not the way you choose to actually reach it.

Anyways...

Reasons why Sorcerers get prefered to Bards are imo...
1. Cantrips and Shield/Absorb Elements (which you can get with a single level dip).
2. Metamagics! Simply because those give you more latitude in playing a Paladin-based gish without harming too much your action economy (typically many people grab Quicken so they can use Extra Attack while casting a spell and/or Subtle to go sword and board without worrying about draw/sheathe economy or crave for an early Warcaster).
3. Last comes the variety of spells, with Sorcerer sporting many more non-concentration spells than Bard so it's easier to expand your options.

With that said, imo Bard is as powerful a dual-classing option than Sorcerer for a Paladin, although in a different way.
Action economy synergy will come by using Bardic Inspiration on a bonus action/reaction instead, or casting Healing Words as bonus action, or using a few of the bonus action concentration spells a Bard may have.
Expertise can help you offset a penalty (*cough* stealth in heavy armor *cough*) or make you extra good at something (*cough* Shield Master bashing *cough*).
Then archetypes can significantly enhance one aspect of Paladin: Swords/Whispers for damage/defense, Glamour for control, Lore for grabbing a Haste/Slow/Spirit Guardians/Circle of Power etc...

If you don't care about metamagics, Bard is probably a stronger option actually unless specific build needing low-level Sorcerer spell or archetype feature. When you bring metamagics into balance then fifty-fifty, it all depends on what you're looking for.
Myself, if I had to put metamagics aside, I'd always pick just one level of Sorcerer then multiclass into Bard because short-rest Bardic Inspiration, Expertise and spell choice are easy to fit into whatever kind of Paladin you want thanks to the various archetypes. :)
Thing is though... I do love metamagics. :)

Maybe I didn't make myself clear.

Sorcadin CAN do all of those things, of course. But everyone that I see that is one of those is in it for other stuff; quickened Booming Blade and Extra Attack, smiting with greater spell slots, grabbing defensive spells, etc. No one ever says, "look at what I can do for you guys!".

No one is a bad player for thinking only about their build. But people tend to look at how they themselves will be performing instead of how their friends will, simply because it's easier for the human brain (and perhaps because it's more gratifying, game-wise, to shove a bunch of d8s on the table).

[MrStabby]

I have contemplated a couple of bard/paladin options.

One is the variant half high elf to pick up the booming blade cantrip to keep up melee power whilst levelling in lore bard. Paladin 2 gives me armour, fighting style and some great spells as well as a touch more healing.

Bard has a lot of spells that scale really well and by picking up magical secrets at level 6 you get more good options: counterspell and armour of agythis are my current favourites. Spells like heat metal give good bonus action options if you need range, otherwise wrathful smite as way to go. Healing word to keep people up and a whole load of utility spells. Higher levels get warcaster - great for when you dissonant whispers someone triggering an attack of opportunity which eats both parts of booming blade and attacks from anyone else close to you.

The other plan is just building on the expertise athletics/shove combo from a few levels in bard.

[MagneticKitty]

I love palabards!
Paladin 3 / bard x swords
Is what I'd do.
Strength build with heavy armor.
Either defense + dual wielding + dual weilder + mounted combat + lances (2) + find greater steed.
Or defense + dualing + mounted combat + lance and shield

Or

Paladin 6 + bard x (not swords or valor)
And you have a nice aura. Same build as above with lance and shield. Basically trading dual wielding (second fighting style) for an aura

[lullelukas]

I'm considering a Bardadin build for an upcoming game, and it seems to be a very good option for a strong support character and damage preventer.

Starting at lv 14 I'm likely going for Vengeance Paladin 6/Hexblade 1/Lore Bard 7, with any additional levels going into bard.

Vengeance Paladin 6 gives me access to armor, Protection Fighting Style, Lay on Hands, Aura of Protection and support spells such as Bane, Protection from Evil and Good, Bless, Lesser Restoration, Hold Person and Cure Wounds. It also gets me smites and extra attack for offense.

Lore Bard 7 gives me Bardic Inspiration, Cutting Words, Song of Rest, Expertise, Countercharm and support spells such as Vicious Mockery, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Blindness/Deafness, Calm Emotions, Bestow Curse, Dispel Magic, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Counterspell and either Haste or Protection from Energy. Lore Bard gives me pretty much nothing offensively apart from Heat Metal - but hey, illusions are neat! :smalltongue:

And to tie the build together a single level as Hexblade reduces MAD by making charisma my only key attribute (with strength only being needed for the Paladin multi-class). It also gives me access to Shield, and Booming Blade and Eldritch Blast for offense.

This makes for a supremely versatile supporting character focused on defensive buffs and debuffs, with it's offense covered by extra attack, a maxed out melee stat serving double duty for casting and decent cantrips. The character will be unlikely to have many spectacular nova turns, and will fall somewhat behind most damage dealers. But the combination of Lore Bard and Aura of Protection looks like a buff engine like few other.

[Nifft]

My main concern is that Bards are too awesome, and it's painful to step away from getting more Bard levels even for just 2 levels of Paladin.

[lunaticfringe]

As a valour bard, I kept looking into multiclassing into paladin the next level, but I kept finding that staying bard gave me what I wanted faster. It's just a good class.

This has been my experience as well. I thought about but then I realized I was delaying Greater Invisibility which is wonderful offensive & defensive combat buff (I have GWM). Now I would be delaying Magical Secrets and I want my Steel Wind Strike & Counterspell really bad. Then it will be Moar Secrets! & Battle Magic.

[Deathtongue]

No one is a bad player for thinking only about their build. But people tend to look at how they themselves will be performing instead of how their friends will, simply because it's easier for the human brain (and perhaps because it's more gratifying, game-wise, to shove a bunch of d8s on the table).
As part of its motion to reduce the impact of Linear Warriors / Quadratic Wizards (and the 4E D&D problem of the Puppetmaster Buffer) 5E D&D encourages personal awesomeness, because unlike other editions personal awesomeness helps your party more than spreading out the love.

Like it or not, monsters in 5E D&D are vulnerable to direct damage in a way they weren't in earlier editions. Someone whose contributions are just boring vanilla damage, ironically enough, tend to help their party members out in a way that the buffers and mezzers don't and can't.

This is why a lot of people 'water' down bard with stuff like Sharpshooter. The class has a lot of great tools, but it suffers at doing direct damage and making the party DPR go up is the best way to contribute. And due to the concentration mechanic, fine spells like Haste and Transmute Rock and Greater Invis often don't juice the party DPR as much as finding ways to improve your base DPR.

[CantigThimble]

Well, that's an easy question.

Because theorycrafters and powergamers hardly ever care about improving the team (where Bards shine), and always care about improving a character. This is the same reason why Valor Bard doesn't get much praise - they get Inspiration 2.0, while Lore and Swords can use their inspiration for themselves.

Eh, I think valor is unpopular because adding dice to AC or Damage is pretty bad compared to adding it to to hit rolls or using cutting words. I mean, adding dice to AC and subtracting it from enemy attacks are prety much the same thing but valor has to set it up ahead of time by giving the die to the right person while lore bards can do it as a reaction.

Also, I think power gamers are often quite happy to optimize for teamwork. Whenever a thread pops up that says: 'My party is X, what should I play?' lots of suggestions are made that optimize based on teamwork. The issue is, being a good support varies significantly depending on the party in question and there are just too many permutations and possibilities for what your party might end up being to optimize for it in abstract without knowing what the party is.

[Snowbluff]

IMO the bonus action spells are important for how Paladin multiclasses work. Sorcerers have

However, I am playing a Paladin2/SwordsBard7 in AL right now and it's pretty good. Basically I'm a bard with heavy armor and smiting, which is something sorcerer can't do innately as they don't get

Spells known are a big deal as well. The celestial sorcerer is really good for Spiritual Weapons and Spirit Guardians. However at sufficient level all Bards get these spells.

Holy Weapon is a good spell for paladins as well for polearm master, and both bards and sorcerers can get it IIRC.

Paladin2/Swords18 or Paladin2/Valor18 should be viable.

I think doubling up on extra attack is silly, but Paladin6/Swords14 would be quite tanky.

Paladin6/Whispers14 is something I want to try, as you get Psychic blades for some high burst damage.

[Pex]

I'd say spells.

Two levels of Warlock gives Agonizing Eldritch Blast, a superb range attack Paladins lack. Add in Hex and they don't need to be Vengeance Paladin for Hunter's Mark. Plus there's the bonus of two virtually free smites per short rest. It's immediate satisfaction.

Sorcerer provides a good number of Cantrips, which Paladins lack. They can have a good range attack, Firebolt if they want the damage or for more utility there's Ray of Frost or Chill Touch. They get some fun with Minor Illusion and Mage Hand. They also get the 1st level spells Shield and Absorb Elements, good on their own and excellent for a Paladin. It's immediate satisfaction.

Bard spells don't offer immediate satisfaction. Vicious Mockery does not compensate Paladin's lack of a range attack. Paladin's aren't looking for attack spells from 1st level spells. They're looking for buffs, and Bard spells offers very little they can use. They're fine for Bards to cast to help the party, but Paladins aren't support. They're tanks. A Paladin is more wanting to cast Bless or Shield of Faith for anything a Bard has they don't. Second level Bard spells offer nice things, but that's three levels. The lack of immediate satisfaction is a disincentive to multiclass into it as opposed to taking another level paladin or sorcerer/warlock.

Of course this isn't to say someone who does multiclass into bard, even for three or four levels to get the ASI, is doing it wrong. The player can be happy with it, great.

[Crl1981]

Because you give up 5 amazing spells, 3x cantrips and 2x lvl 1s, at 1st level bard vs Sorcerer.

Cantrips - Booming Blade, Green-flame Blade, ranged attack

Lvl 1 - Shield, and Absorb Elements


Yeah the entire spell list is anemic in synergy.

[Foxhound438]

Starting at lv 14 I'm likely going for Vengeance Paladin 6/Hexblade 1/Lore Bard 7, with any additional levels going into bard.


It might be worth grabbing a second level of warlock at some point, since the difference between having 1 short rest spell and 2 can be pretty big. Obviously not as much so if you're in a game that does fewer combats in a day, but it's worth considering.

[Snowbluff]

It might be worth grabbing a second level of warlock at some point, since the difference between having 1 short rest spell and 2 can be pretty big. Obviously not as much so if you're in a game that does fewer combats in a day, but it's worth considering.

That would cost you the 7th level spell from magical secret though. :(

[lunaticfringe]

That would cost you the 7th level spell from magical secret though. :(

THey already lost it with a 6/1/13 split. You need Bard 14 for 7th level Magical Secrets. They would need to drop lock entirely.

[LudicSavant]

Well, that's an easy question.

Because theorycrafters and powergamers hardly ever care about improving the team (where Bards shine), and always care about improving a character. This is the same reason why Valor Bard doesn't get much praise - they get Inspiration 2.0, while Lore and Swords can use their inspiration for themselves.

One need only look around at the things commonly cited as top shelf to see the falseness of this stereotype. Bless. God (e.g support) Wizards. Ancients Paladin auras. These are all support things.

I suspect (and this seems to be supported by what scant surveys I have seen) that Bards and Druids are played less than other classes despite their power, simply because they have a narrower flavor niche than other classes. Beyond that, look at the spell lists and progression breakpoints.

[Snowbluff]

THey already lost it with a 6/1/13 split. You need Bard 14 for 7th level Magical Secrets. They would need to drop lock entirely.

Oh you're right.

*ahem*
but you lose your 7th level spells though. :(

[Sception]

There are bunches of reasons why paladin-warlocks and paladin-sorcerers are more common than paladin-bards that have nothing to do with players being *bad-wrong selfish powergamers*.

In terms of the paladin-warlock multiclass, it was initially popular because the warlock is a very at-will/short-rest oriented class - which can feel underwhelming on short adventuring days next to the novas of their daily-resource peers, while the base paladin is heavily long rest oriented - which can feel thinly stretched on long adventuring days. Mixing the two gives a healthy mix of at-will, encounter, and daily resources. In particular a few low level short rest spell slots is very nice for a paladin who wants to feel paladiny in every fight by always having a smite slot or two on hand. The bard helps with this some via inspiration dice, but their all important spell slots are normal daily slots like those of the paladin.

More recently, the introduction of the Hexblade further encourages this combination by letting both the physical and magical abilities of the character key off the same primary stat. This is a major boon for paladins who otherwise have difficulty balancing the two, and that's before you even consider feats in your build further draining away ASIs. We can debate the quality of the hexblade subclass in terms of mechanical balance or thematic validity all we want, but as it is even a paladin who plans to multiclass into sorcerer or bard is still strongly incentivized to make a pit stop in hexblade, and once you're there, why not take another level for invocations and another short rest spell slots? And from there, why not take a third level to bump those slots up to 2nd level and snag a pact boon? And even with the MADness issue fixed, you're still kind of feat starved, so it would be a shame not to grab that ASI at 4th level, and wouldn't you know it now your a hexadin and not a sorcadin or bardadin at all.


Setting warlock aside, there's also natural reasons why paladin-sorcerer is also more popular than paladin-bard. Most paladins multiclassing into a full caster are looking to get more of a gishy, magical swordsman feel, with more emphasis on the magic side of that than a paladin normally has. Both sorcerer and bard offer expanded spell lists and accelerated slot progressions to deliver on that feel, but the sorcerer's spell list takes that blend of fighting and magic further with more spells that directly mesh the two concepts - blocking attacks with a 'Shield' spell or lashing out with 'Green Flame Blade'. When a bardadin casts a spell, it's usually instead of attacking or defending with their weapon, the sorcadin does both at once.

And the additional class features offered by the sorcerer also play better into this gishy spell-blade feel. Not that the bard's inspiration abilities aren't good, they're great, but they're an extra thing on the side, they don't directly feed into the spellsword archetype. Where as the sorcerer, through metamagic, offers /quicken/, which lets the sorcadin cast their spells and bash faces in with their weapon at the same time. The only ability that comes close to that elsewhere in the system is seven levels deep into eldritch knight, and as decent as war caster is, it's nowhere near as effective as quicken when it comes to bringing a spellsword play style to life at the table.

And, importantly, quicken (and metamagic in general, but especially quicken in this case) is highly thematically versatile. It works for black knights casting fear and blood knights casting fireball and hedge knights casting entangle and green knights casting suggestion and knights-in-shining-armor casting bless. Just quicken a spell appropriate to your theme while chopping at the enemy with your sword at the same time, maybe even throwing in a smite if the threat is dire enough to warrant it, or if you score a lucky crit.

Bardic inspiration is also something that you can hand out while attacking, but it feels less spell-swordy because you aren't actually casting a spell, and while thematically it works great for green knights or knights-in-shining-armor types, that's a lot more narrow thematic range than you can get out of quicken, so naturally it lends itself to fewer characters.


So.. yeah. While both bard and sorcerer can offer the accelerated cha casting a gishy paladin/whatever might be looking for, the sorcerers metamagic offers a more direct contribution to that sort of build than the bard's features do.

.........

And after all that, it's not like paladin/bards aren't popular. I still see plenty of them. Maybe not long drown out threads and guides to the same degree as you see for sorcadins and hexadins, but still, any paladin guide you see will rate bard as a high quality multiclass option, and many bard guides will do the same for paladin.

But not as many, because that's another thing that encourages paladin-warlocks and paladin-sorcerers over paladin-bards. Paladins, Warlocks, and Sorcerers all want to multiclass. They're all generally fairly front loaded classes, and many players of them feel like they've gone stale after several levels - especially warlocks and sorcerers. So the difference may be less about what warlock or sorcerer can do for the paladin, and more about what paladin can do for the sorcerer and warlock. Bards, even bards looking to play around in melee, just aren't as desperate for the help, aren't looking for an out the same way. Sword and Valor bard both function way better as gishes in their own right without any need to multiclass at all than, say, bladelock ever did before hexblade, and arguably even after it.

[dmteeter]

Because paladins moral hoopla doesn't allow me to seduce every tavern wench and scullery maid i meet. Which directly counteracts my bardic sexiness.

[ATHATH]

No they don't. Not in your example anyway.
A 6th paladin and 6 Lore Bard has access to 1st & 2nd paladin spells and 1st-3rd bard spells, plus 2 spells up to 3rd level from any class spell list. You do have a few 4th and 5th level spell slots to upcast some of them though.
'Tis ironic that a poster named "Sorlock Master" doesn't properly understand the multiclassed spellcasting rules, no?

Probably "no", because I'm probably misusing the word "ironic".

[ATHATH]

Because paladins moral hoopla doesn't allow me to seduce every tavern wench and scullery maid i meet. Which directly counteracts my bardic sexiness.
Have you heard of our lord and savior(s), (the Oath of) the Ancients?

[Citan]

I'd say spells.

Two levels of Warlock gives Agonizing Eldritch Blast, a superb range attack Paladins lack. Add in Hex and they don't need to be Vengeance Paladin for Hunter's Mark. Plus there's the bonus of two virtually free smites per short rest. It's immediate satisfaction.

Sorcerer provides a good number of Cantrips, which Paladins lack. They can have a good range attack, Firebolt if they want the damage or for more utility there's Ray of Frost or Chill Touch. They get some fun with Minor Illusion and Mage Hand. They also get the 1st level spells Shield and Absorb Elements, good on their own and excellent for a Paladin. It's immediate satisfaction.

Bard spells don't offer immediate satisfaction. Vicious Mockery does not compensate Paladin's lack of a range attack. Paladin's aren't looking for attack spells from 1st level spells. They're looking for buffs, and Bard spells offers very little they can use. They're fine for Bards to cast to help the party, but Paladins aren't support. They're tanks. A Paladin is more wanting to cast Bless or Shield of Faith for anything a Bard has they don't. Second level Bard spells offer nice things, but that's three levels. The lack of immediate satisfaction is a disincentive to multiclass into it as opposed to taking another level paladin or sorcerer/warlock.

Of course this isn't to say someone who does multiclass into bard, even for three or four levels to get the ASI, is doing it wrong. The player can be happy with it, great.
I was overall in agreement with the first two paragraphs.
But this bolded part is so wrong I don't know where to start.

First, on the "offensive buffs"
- Faerie Fire: group advantage for you and party. -> Paladin has neat spells for single-target soft control, but sometimes plain advantage on group is much better.
- Thunderwave: especially if you dip at low levels, it may be a much better use on a heavy-armor resilient character than on a more or less frail caster. And on those situations when it's useful, it pairs nicely with PAM too.
- Blindness: targets CON, which is a pain, but upscales nicely and is non-concentration, so can be paired with any buff.
- Hold Person: situational in potential targets, but damn good otherwise: what better buff to have, especially as a Vengeance/Devotion Paladin, than auto-crit on melee attacks?
- Fear: when you are the lone tank, it's well worth a try imo because no risk of friendly fire and you're bound to affect several creatures.

But maybe you'd rather buff yourself because at least you're sure the effect lands? No problem, you got covered nicely here too.
- Warding Wind: close creatures are in difficult terrain (harder to run away from you), arrows pointed fly at disadvantage (great for a melee guy that wants to attract aggro, yet survive the heat).
- Polymorph: does not prevent the use of Divine Smite nor the benefit of Auras, so although this wouldn't be a usual thing, can be useful. But the next great thing is...
- Greater Invisibility: better offense and defense at the same time, this is really the only buff you need from here on.

And let's not forget Magic Secrets!
This means the famous Haste is just one level later, that Shadow Blade is only three levels later (but can immediately be upcast), that you can get Elemental Weapon just one or two levels later (if first Paladin 5) and Circle of Power EARLIER (same), but also Spiritual Weapon if you fancy it, Spirit Guardians, Thunder Step, Fly, Pass Without Trace (Paladin is rarely sneaky by default), Healing Spirit (situationally good), Armor of Agathys, Fire Shield, etc...
Whatever kind of Paladin you are.
Sure, some spells are quickly gotten with a Warlock single level dip.
Sure, several of those spells are accessible to a Divine Soul Sorcerer (actually the only one getting most of them "by default") but limited number of spells limits this.

AND there is more! Bard can give you extra nova damage (Whispers), extra resilience (Lore), extra mobility and sustained damage (Swords), Glamour a 1/rest, 1mn long bonus action Command (Fall/Halt is great), with only Valor not providing much here.
AND there is more! Bard also provides Expertise, which means you are pretty much guaranteed to Shove or Grapple an enemy as long as he's not oversized.
Ok, this is not about spells anymore, but I had to point it out.

There are bunches of reasons why paladin-warlocks and paladin-sorcerers are more common than paladin-bards that have nothing to do with players being *bad-wrong selfish powergamers*.

In terms of the paladin-warlock multiclass, it was initially popular because the warlock is a very at-will/short-rest oriented class - which can feel underwhelming on short adventuring days next to the novas of their daily-resource peers, while the base paladin is heavily long rest oriented - which can feel thinly stretched on long adventuring days. Mixing the two gives a healthy mix of at-will, encounter, and daily resources. In particular a few low level short rest spell slots is very nice for a paladin who wants to feel paladiny in every fight by always having a smite slot or two on hand. The bard helps with this some via inspiration dice, but their all important spell slots are normal daily slots like those of the paladin.

More recently, the introduction of the Hexblade further encourages this combination by letting both the physical and magical abilities of the character key off the same primary stat. This is a major boon for paladins who otherwise have difficulty balancing the two, and that's before you even consider feats in your build further draining away ASIs. We can debate the quality of the hexblade subclass in terms of mechanical balance or thematic validity all we want, but as it is even a paladin who plans to multiclass into sorcerer or bard is still strongly incentivized to make a pit stop in hexblade, and once you're there, why not take another level for invocations and another short rest spell slots? And from there, why not take a third level to bump those slots up to 2nd level and snag a pact boon? And even with the MADness issue fixed, you're still kind of feat starved, so it would be a shame not to grab that ASI at 4th level, and wouldn't you know it now your a hexadin and not a sorcadin or bardadin at all.


Setting warlock aside, there's also natural reasons why paladin-sorcerer is also more popular than paladin-bard. Most paladins multiclassing into a full caster are looking to get more of a gishy, magical swordsman feel, with more emphasis on the magic side of that than a paladin normally has. Both sorcerer and bard offer expanded spell lists and accelerated slot progressions to deliver on that feel, but the sorcerer's spell list takes that blend of fighting and magic further with more spells that directly mesh the two concepts - blocking attacks with a 'Shield' spell or lashing out with 'Green Flame Blade'. When a bardadin casts a spell, it's usually instead of attacking or defending with their weapon, the sorcadin does both at once.

And the additional class features offered by the sorcerer also play better into this gishy spell-blade feel. Not that the bard's inspiration abilities aren't good, they're great, but they're an extra thing on the side, they don't directly feed into the spellsword archetype. Where as the sorcerer, through metamagic, offers /quicken/, which lets the sorcadin cast their spells and bash faces in with their weapon at the same time. The only ability that comes close to that elsewhere in the system is seven levels deep into eldritch knight, and as decent as war caster is, it's nowhere near as effective as quicken when it comes to bringing a spellsword play style to life at the table.

And, importantly, quicken (and metamagic in general, but especially quicken in this case) is highly thematically versatile. It works for black knights casting fear and blood knights casting fireball and hedge knights casting entangle and green knights casting suggestion and knights-in-shining-armor casting bless. Just quicken a spell appropriate to your theme while chopping at the enemy with your sword at the same time, maybe even throwing in a smite if the threat is dire enough to warrant it, or if you score a lucky crit.

Bardic inspiration is also something that you can hand out while attacking, but it feels less spell-swordy because you aren't actually casting a spell, and while thematically it works great for green knights or knights-in-shining-armor types, that's a lot more narrow thematic range than you can get out of quicken, so naturally it lends itself to fewer characters.


So.. yeah. While both bard and sorcerer can offer the accelerated cha casting a gishy paladin/whatever might be looking for, the sorcerers metamagic offers a more direct contribution to that sort of build than the bard's features do.

.........

And after all that, it's not like paladin/bards aren't popular. I still see plenty of them. Maybe not long drown out threads and guides to the same degree as you see for sorcadins and hexadins, but still, any paladin guide you see will rate bard as a high quality multiclass option, and many bard guides will do the same for paladin.

But not as many, because that's another thing that encourages paladin-warlocks and paladin-sorcerers over paladin-bards. Paladins, Warlocks, and Sorcerers all want to multiclass. They're all generally fairly front loaded classes, and many players of them feel like they've gone stale after several levels - especially warlocks and sorcerers. So the difference may be less about what warlock or sorcerer can do for the paladin, and more about what paladin can do for the sorcerer and warlock. Bards, even bards looking to play around in melee, just aren't as desperate for the help, aren't looking for an out the same way. Sword and Valor bard both function way better as gishes in their own right without any need to multiclass at all than, say, bladelock ever did before hexblade, and arguably even after it.
This, imo, is a very accurate and detailed analysis of the causes for that apparent disdain of Bardadin. :)

[JakOfAllTirades]

Paladins are there to mash faces; bards are more support-oriented.

Paladins have some excellent party support features, though. A build emphasizing those, plus the Bard's support capabilities, might be worth looking at.

[lullelukas]

It might be worth grabbing a second level of warlock at some point, since the difference between having 1 short rest spell and 2 can be pretty big. Obviously not as much so if you're in a game that does fewer combats in a day, but it's worth considering.

As allready noted Warlock would need to be dropped entirely, so maybe a 2nd level of Hexblade might be worth it at some point if the campaign progresses. The main reason to ta a level of Hexblade is to be somewhat viable combat wise without a very large investment in spell selection, making a character that buffs first and swings second rather than a character that blasts first and buffs second. Missing out on Plane Shift, Finger of Death and the like is a bummer, but I like the versatility of being able to wade into combat and swing around without spreading my stats to thin. It does mean you miss out on some real power though.

[lunaticfringe]

Have you heard of our lord and savior(s), (the Oath of) the Ancients?

Little known fact: those aren't really spectral vines when channeling Nature's Wrath, they're Angel dongs.

[Willie the Duck]

Paladins have some excellent party support features, though. A build emphasizing those, plus the Bard's support capabilities, might be worth looking at.

It's absolutely worth looking at. It's absolutely worth doing. Back in 2014 or 15, I actually did a straight up Ancients/Lore combo, with none of the post-PHB options out, and it worked great. Doing is great.

It's just a little harder to throw up on a forum post and discuss. You'll notice that support builds rarely get discussed with more depth than "Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard X makes a great healing support character!" Probably because it involves discussing individual spells that you swap out at different levels so you kind of have to post 20 different write ups (or at least "LVL 8: swap out _____ from bard spells with ____, and your paladin should start using ____ more"). A sorcadin or pallock, with the two-headed (and only two) focus on melee and ranged destruction, is just plain a lot easier to discuss.


Little known fact: those aren't really spectral vines when channeling Nature's Wrath, they're Angel dongs.

Wait, you moved away from nature to look for carnal imagery?

[lunaticfringe]

Wait, you moved away from nature to look for carnal imagery?

Apparently so, though admittedly because I think Angel dongs sounds slightly funnier than Fey penises or Nature Spirit wangs. Tree Wieners has potential but I hadn't thought of it at the time.

[Son of A Lich!]

It's just a little harder to throw up on a forum post and discuss. You'll notice that support builds rarely get discussed with more depth than "Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard X makes a great healing support character!" Probably because it involves discussing individual spells that you swap out at different levels so you kind of have to post 20 different write ups (or at least "LVL 8: swap out _____ from bard spells with ____, and your paladin should start using ____ more"). A sorcadin or pallock, with the two-headed (and only two) focus on melee and ranged destruction, is just plain a lot easier to discuss.

I just want to expand on this a little bit.

It is harder to discuss, because it's not just the one character being involved; Haste is a great spell, but between a Barb (Level 10) and a Warlock of the Tome (Level 6), Haste has more value with the Barbarian. He can make more attacks, get into melee and make the most of each of his actions, where the Warlock of the Tome is limited to 1 spell and 1 cantrip, and likely doesn't want to be too close to combat.

Enlarge probably won't help the Barbarian too much (they already have advantage on Str checks when raging) but there are niche situations where it can be beneficial (When he wants to grapple A Purple Worm, for instance), and our Tome-Lock probably doesn't have much use for it all unless he needs help with Line of Sight.

Support is really effective, but knowing your targets, the situations, and the player's needs in the party is a much larger consideration then just personal feat selections or character build. The problem becomes pulling your weight when the chips are down. Is buffing the Cleric going to help our DPR more then just adding to it yourself? That is something that can be objectively optimized without consideration of your other party members.

Healing can offset the clock in our favor, a well timed buff or debuff can swing the tide of battle, a cascading critical can make everyone at the table reconsider their turns, but knowing when to heal, buff, debuff, crowd control, or contribute to DPR is something that every player needs to learn in tandem with each other.

That is what makes it hard to talk about proper support, We need to know who is in the party, who can help who and how, how many concentration checks are flying and what you are likely going to be facing.

Two bardlocks, a wizard, life cleric and EK need different help then a Moon Druid, Bard of Valor, Barbarian, and Long death Monk. And they need different help at different levels, and different buffs when fighting dragons, as opposed to Lich Kings and so forth. Sure, there are somethings that can be nice all around, but dropping a fog cloud on the enemies when the ranger was about to fire at those same enemies is reducing your DPR rather then limiting there's.

[Son of A Lich!]

Apparently so, though admittedly because I think Angel dongs sounds slightly funnier than Fey penises or Nature Spirit wangs. Tree Wieners has potential but I hadn't thought of it at the time.

Not economical for the Jokes/post ratio. Besides, I hear it takes forever for Trent's to get wood.

[mephnick]

'Tis ironic that a poster named "Sorlock Master" doesn't properly understand the multiclassed spellcasting rules, no?

Probably "no", because I'm probably misusing the word "ironic".

Am I missing something? A Bard 6/ Pal 6 only knows 3rd level Bard spells and 2nd level Pally spells, but has 4th and 5th slots....

What did he say that was wrong?

[AHF]

Am I missing something? A Bard 6/ Pal 6 only knows 3rd level Bard spells and 2nd level Pally spells, but has 4th and 5th slots....

What did he say that was wrong?

Athath quoted the person who corrected the original mistake and was having a public sidebar with the person who made the correction. Athath wasn't disagreeing with the correction; he was actually agreeing with it.

[mephnick]

Oh..teaches me to skim posts.

[Crgaston]

Little known fact: those aren't really spectral vines when channeling Nature's Wrath, they're Angel dongs.



Wait, you moved away from nature to look for carnal imagery?


Apparently so, though admittedly because I think Angel dongs sounds slightly funnier than Fey penises or Nature Spirit wangs. Tree Wieners has potential but I hadn't thought of it at the time.


Not economical for the Jokes/post ratio. Besides, I hear it takes forever for Trent's to get wood.

An Ancients Pally/Glamour Bard is more likely to come after you with a pistil in each hand...

[jdolch]

IMO it might even be an OOC reason:

Players who want to be a Paladin, the Stalwart Defender, the Knight in Shining Armor, etc., are not the kind of players who want to play a guy in women's clothes, whistling a song while he dances in his tights.

I am exaggerating of course, but i think there is such a vast thematic chasm between these two concepts (as they are often played) that it just doesn't make sense. Of course if there would be mechanic benefits on a scale that surpasses other options it might be different, but there isn't. And especially the Sorcerer as a caster who isn't bound to any specific concept, is a much more attractive multi class option, that doesn't force the player to alter his original Paladin concept to accommodate it.


Sorcadin CAN do all of those things, of course. But everyone that I see that is one of those is in it for other stuff; quickened Booming Blade and Extra Attack, smiting with greater spell slots, grabbing defensive spells, etc. No one ever says, "look at what I can do for you guys!".

Speaking from personal experience: ONE of the most bad-ass support things a Sorcadin does is provide Aura of Protection (and possibly Aura of Warding, etc.) to the group.

Also i think you are badly mistaken by assuming that Sorcadins don't support their group. I don't see any basis for a claim like that, when Sorcadins have a whole plethora of things that immensely help out the group. And I don't even need to go to Divine Soul Sorcerer for that and it's access to the full list of cleric spells.
Careful Web,
Careful Hypnotic Pattern,
Twinned Haste,
Twinned Bless. [Edit: i meant Cure Wounds, not Bless]
Need i even go on ?

[Pex]

I was overall in agreement with the first two paragraphs.
But this bolded part is so wrong I don't know where to start.

First, on the "offensive buffs"
- Faerie Fire: group advantage for you and party. -> Paladin has neat spells for single-target soft control, but sometimes plain advantage on group is much better.
- Thunderwave: especially if you dip at low levels, it may be a much better use on a heavy-armor resilient character than on a more or less frail caster. And on those situations when it's useful, it pairs nicely with PAM too.
- Blindness: targets CON, which is a pain, but upscales nicely and is non-concentration, so can be paired with any buff.
- Hold Person: situational in potential targets, but damn good otherwise: what better buff to have, especially as a Vengeance/Devotion Paladin, than auto-crit on melee attacks?
- Fear: when you are the lone tank, it's well worth a try imo because no risk of friendly fire and you're bound to affect several creatures.

But maybe you'd rather buff yourself because at least you're sure the effect lands? No problem, you got covered nicely here too.
- Warding Wind: close creatures are in difficult terrain (harder to run away from you), arrows pointed fly at disadvantage (great for a melee guy that wants to attract aggro, yet survive the heat).
- Polymorph: does not prevent the use of Divine Smite nor the benefit of Auras, so although this wouldn't be a usual thing, can be useful. But the next great thing is...
- Greater Invisibility: better offense and defense at the same time, this is really the only buff you need from here on.

And let's not forget Magic Secrets!
This means the famous Haste is just one level later, that Shadow Blade is only three levels later (but can immediately be upcast), that you can get Elemental Weapon just one or two levels later (if first Paladin 5) and Circle of Power EARLIER (same), but also Spiritual Weapon if you fancy it, Spirit Guardians, Thunder Step, Fly, Pass Without Trace (Paladin is rarely sneaky by default), Healing Spirit (situationally good), Armor of Agathys, Fire Shield, etc...
Whatever kind of Paladin you are.
Sure, some spells are quickly gotten with a Warlock single level dip.
Sure, several of those spells are accessible to a Divine Soul Sorcerer (actually the only one getting most of them "by default") but limited number of spells limits this.

AND there is more! Bard can give you extra nova damage (Whispers), extra resilience (Lore), extra mobility and sustained damage (Swords), Glamour a 1/rest, 1mn long bonus action Command (Fall/Halt is great), with only Valor not providing much here.
AND there is more! Bard also provides Expertise, which means you are pretty much guaranteed to Shove or Grapple an enemy as long as he's not oversized.
Ok, this is not about spells anymore, but I had to point it out.

This, imo, is a very accurate and detailed analysis of the causes for that apparent disdain of Bardadin. :)

Fairie Fire is nice but for the other spells that's heavy level investment. Sorcerer gets most of them too and a good range attack and melee friendly buffs of Shield & Absorb Elements immediately upon your 1st level. That is what's key. You get juicy stuff immediately, and if you're willing to go the heavy investment in levels you have lots to look forward to in those spells plus Quicken.

As I said, Paladin/Bard is not bad. More power to you if you like it so much, but I was answering why it isn't as popular as Paladin/Sorcerer or Paladin/Warlock. Perhaps more than specific spells it's overall immediate satisfaction of getting juicy stuff.

[Skylivedk]

5E D&D encourages personal awesomeness, because unlike other editions personal awesomeness helps your party more than spreading out the love.

Like it or not, monsters in 5E D&D are vulnerable to direct damage in a way they weren't in earlier editions. Someone whose contributions are just boring vanilla damage, ironically enough, tend to help their party members out in a way that the buffers and mezzers don't and can't.

This is why a lot of people 'water' down bard with stuff like Sharpshooter. The class has a lot of great tools, but it suffers at doing direct damage and making the party DPR go up is the best way to contribute. And due to the concentration mechanic, fine spells like Haste and Transmute Rock and Greater Invis often don't juice the party DPR as much as finding ways to improve your base DPR.

Highly disagree on:
A) 5e monsters being more vulnerable to damage
B) that mechanically solid players take Sharpshooter on a bard (maybe valor bard... Still not strong)
C) that haste and greater invis don't see much place. Ironically haste see a lot of play from sorcerers (esp with Paladin dips) due to twin. Not as good without twin. Same goes for greater invis.


It might be worth grabbing a second level of warlock at some point, since the difference between having 1 short rest spell and 2 can be pretty big. Obviously not as much so if you're in a game that does fewer combats in a day, but it's worth considering.

Maybe go for a sword bard x/ hexblade 3-4 / pala 2 instead or hexblade to 5 and keep pala 2.



Speaking from personal experience: ONE of the most bad-ass support things a Sorcadin does is provide Aura of Protection (and possibly Aura of Warding, etc.) to the group.

Also i think you are badly mistaken by assuming that Sorcadins don't support their group. I don't see any basis for a claim like that, when Sorcadins have a whole plethora of things that immensely help out the group. And I don't even need to go to Divine Soul Sorcerer for that and it's access to the full list of cleric spells.
Careful Web,
Careful Hypnotic Pattern,
Twinned Haste,
Twinned Bless.
Need i even go on ?
Overall I'm with you... Except I wouldn't call the thematic clash OOC. Quite the opposite. Ironic though, considering the many tales of knights who mastered fine arts as well.

On your support part:
Twinned Bless? And would you pick careful over quicken? I'm not sure I follow the reasoning. IMO you need careful less than normal because you can be in the frontline and hence decide the placement of at least one ally (of the 1-3 allies) as you cast.

I looked into an Aarakocra bard/pala for grapple and smite shenanigans. In the end twin enlarge/reduce on me and grapple target seemed even more fun

[jdolch]

On your support part:
Twinned Bless? And would you pick careful over quicken? I'm not sure I follow the reasoning. IMO you need careful less than normal because you can be in the frontline and hence decide the placement of at least one ally (of the 1-3 allies) as you cast.

Well, the specifics depend on the actual build, of course. For example you don't need careful if you have Aura of devotion. You can just drop Hypnotic Pattern at your feet right into the melee.
I am just saying the multiclass itself is well suited for supporting your group in a wide variety of ways. Whether you do that or not is of course up to the player.
Another thing is that actually kicking the BBEG in the teeth CAN be supporting-your-group. Usually its more effective to take the bad guys out than healing in fight. Whether that is productive depends on the group composition.

Edit:


Twinned Bless?

Sorry, i meant "Cure Wounds", not Bless.

[Benny89]

I think it's because Paladins get so much by staying out of multiclassing that it's just no worth it. Simillar to Bards imo.

Sorcadins are totally different. They are embodiment of powerbuilds.

But I think pure Paladin just offers so much already that not many people think it's worth to lose it for something else. Simillar with Bards. Of course when talk about min-maxing, for roleplay reason- sure any multiclass is good if player find it interesting.

So why in theory Bardadin have some amazing synergies, the question is- would it REALLY be better in the end that pure Pally or Bard? It's like with Burgers- you can add jalapenios, you can add potato pancakes, you can add avocado and so on- but in the end- is it really better than Classic Cheeseburger?

That is the problems with multiclassing. In theory it allows for superb powerbuilding but in reality you often miss so much good stuff that while multi gets power spike on 10-15 range, they fall behind imo before 10 and after 15-16 compare to many pure classes.

Not all multi of course (Sorcadins of Fighter/Wizards are imo insanse) but majority do lose in the end more than they gain.

[Pex]

I think it's because Paladins get so much by staying out of multiclassing that it's just no worth it. Simillar to Bards imo.

Sorcadins are totally different. They are embodiment of powerbuilds.

But I think pure Paladin just offers so much already that not many people think it's worth to lose it for something else. Simillar with Bards. Of course when talk about min-maxing, for roleplay reason- sure any multiclass is good if player find it interesting.

So why in theory Bardadin have some amazing synergies, the question is- would it REALLY be better in the end that pure Pally or Bard? It's like with Burgers- you can add jalapenios, you can add potato pancakes, you can add avocado and so on- but in the end- is it really better than Classic Cheeseburger?

That is the problems with multiclassing. In theory it allows for superb powerbuilding but in reality you often miss so much good stuff that while multi gets power spike on 10-15 range, they fall behind imo before 10 and after 15-16 compare to many pure classes.

Not all multi of course (Sorcadins of Fighter/Wizards are imo insanse) but majority do lose in the end more than they gain.

In my case the lack of a decent range attack was hurting the party. Facing flyers or enemies with long range attacks of their own, losing my paladin's action for lack of anything constructive to do made things worse. I have 10 DX so even if I use a bow and arrow and hit I only do 1d8 damage which is pittance. I multiclassed because I needed a range Cantrip attack that gave me a better chance to hit using my higher Charisma and more damage. It's not awesome, but it's something. Speaking with my DM I went with Sorcerer at 9th level because it fit better in terms of roleplaying that's campaign dependent. Shield and Absorb Elements were at first perks but quickly proved to be crucial. They literally saved my character's life several times I would not have stood a chance without them as a single class Paladin. I already have cast those spells more than any other Paladin spell or even my attack Cantrip - Fire Bolt for the damage or Ray of Frost if I face a fire resistant creature and/or I need the rider. I went 4 levels to get Quicken and the ASI for Charisma. I'll be going back to Paladin at level 13. I don't regret the delay in Paladin progression, but I have waited long enough. I'm still a warrior. I don't need 3rd level sorcerer spells, despite Haste. The party will need me to have the Aura spells. I'll need Improved Divine Smite. It's all good for me.

As a side note this is one area I really appreciate 5E on a personal level. I like multiclassing as a general note of the game. I don't always do it, but I like that I'm willing to consider it or even plan for it on a character. Previous editions or even Pathfinder I wouldn't even think of multiclassing.

[Galactkaktus]

First of all any multiclass has merits. Because all levels have some value. The thing about the paladin bard multiclass from a generalized mechanics perspective(probably something i'm missing since there are so many different spells and features) is that the major thing it does is add smites to bards or more smites to paladins(again there could be other things but that should be the key thing they get from eachother). But if you multiclass sorcerer you get spells as a bonus action which increases the efficency of your turn since the normal attack action always is athreat as long as you have spell slots. And warlocks also gives more spell slots and the ability to double smite. So both sorcerer and warloock empowers smiting by alot so bard has alot to compete with.

[jiriku]

If I multiclass my paladin into divine soul sorcerer, I get weapon cantrips. I get great ranged attack cantrips. I can cherry-pick the sorcerer AND cleric lists for the best spells to complement my build -- and 80% of the bard spells I might want are also available through the cleric or sorcerer list. I can Quicken my best spells, which greatly improves my combat tempo. If I care to focus on it, I can heal, remove debuffs, and bring back the dead fully as well as a bard/paladin. I can charm and I can use interaction skills well.

And what do I lose? Basically just Bardic Inspiration, Expertise, and Jack of All Trades. Those are good features, but they don't synergize as well as attack cantrips and cleric spells.

[Benny89]

In my case the lack of a decent range attack was hurting the party.

Understandable. My party already have range character and warlock with 300 or 600 feet range (don't remember) so I can just focus on ground targets.

Later in levels if I will need to kill something in the air of far from me I can just ride there on my Pegasus ;)


If I multiclass my paladin into divine soul sorcerer, I get weapon cantrips. I get great ranged attack cantrips. I can cherry-pick the sorcerer AND cleric lists for the best spells to complement my build -- and 80% of the bard spells I might want are also available through the cleric or sorcerer list. I can Quicken my best spells, which greatly improves my combat tempo. If I care to focus on it, I can heal, remove debuffs, and bring back the dead fully as well as a bard/paladin. I can charm and I can use interaction skills well.

And what do I lose? Basically just Bardic Inspiration, Expertise, and Jack of All Trades. Those are good features, but they don't synergize as well as attack cantrips and cleric spells.

Yes, it's been said that Sorcadin is one of few exceptions in multiclassing where you really gain much more than lose. Sorcadin is like the embodiment of powerbuild. My fav is Pally 6/14 Sorc, so I can get extra attack and aura or Pally 3/Sorc 17 to get that Divine Channel.

However Bardadin is imo nowhere near sorcadin. Just my opinion.

[Citan]

Fairie Fire is nice but for the other spells that's heavy level investment. Sorcerer gets most of them too and a good range attack and melee friendly buffs of Shield & Absorb Elements immediately upon your 1st level. That is what's key. You get juicy stuff immediately, and if you're willing to go the heavy investment in levels you have lots to look forward to in those spells plus Quicken.

As I said, Paladin/Bard is not bad. More power to you if you like it so much, but I was answering why it isn't as popular as Paladin/Sorcerer or Paladin/Warlock. Perhaps more than specific spells it's overall immediate satisfaction of getting juicy stuff.
This is indeed right, Bard's 1st level spells are not synergizing enough with Paladin, you'll need at least 3rd level (Heat Metal / Hold Person ;)). And you can't use Bardic Inspiration for yourself either.

But that heavier investment is also paying off later: whereas you need to use a reaction and 1st level slot with Shield, with Swords Bard you get extra AC that is smoothly added as you Attack (which is normally bread and butter of Paladin), with Whispers you get replacement/boost of Divine Smite.
And the Expertise means you can generate advantage reliably or really enforce your role as party face.

So for real dual-class, I don't feel the argument as really weighting. For a 1-level or 2-level dip, yeah I'll 100% agree with you, Sorcerer is best with Warlock close second.

[jdolch]

I have to disagree.

Nobody is even talking about a 1-2 Level Dip into Sorcerer. Basically Sorcerer levels become plain better than Paladin levels after 2/6/7 (depending on Build). The Paladin class is heavily front-loaded (as is for example the Fighter class). You gain so much more by then going straight Sorcerer than you would by switching back to Paladin.

As for Warlock, it depends, but yeah. A 1-2 level dip into Warlock is just op, especially hexblade, since among many other things (like giving you Agonizing Eldritch Blast) it makes your whole character (almost) SAD. But nobody says you then have to go back to Paladin. Arguably staying Warlock is better than going back and even if you don't want to stay Warlock, you can just switch to Sorcerer and go e.g. P2/W2/S16. A VERY strong build. Or P6/W2/S12.

But I stand by my earlier statement, that one HUGE advantage the Sorcerer has over the Bard isn't even mechanical. It's that they are almost agnostic in the way they can be roleplayed. You can basically be any kind of character and take Sorcerer levels without you "having" to change the flavor of your character. e.g. There need to be virtually no difference in role-playing a P20 Paladin and role-playing a P6/S14 Sorcadin.

YMMV, but i feel If you dip heavily into Bard it forces you to play your character in a certain way. In some casses that may fit your concept but in most cases for most people it won't.

[Willie the Duck]

I have to disagree.

Nobody is even talking about a 1-2 Level Dip into Sorcerer. Basically Sorcerer levels become plain better than Paladin levels after 2/6/7 (depending on Build). The Paladin class is heavily front-loaded (as is for example the Fighter class). You gain so much more by then going straight Sorcerer than you would by switching back to Paladin.

I'd call that situationally true, but not universal. If you are creating a front-liner who has tricks up their sleeve other than nova-smiting, once you have MC'd picking one or the other at each level is a real sacrifice. They both help.

I think the real difference is that once you did sorc after say paladin 6, the benefits are clear and immediate -- ranged cantrips are useful now. First level sorc spells are useful now. Bard really gets you lots of clear advantages only after you get to Font of Inspiration and Xth level spells (take your pick on when, but not 1. Heat Metal at 9th level is okay, Hypnotic Pattern or Stinking Cloud at 11th is stronger). Palibard is a more long term investment that pays off in levels outside of many groups' sweet spot.

[Arkhios]

I've been wrestling with four equally possible routes for my ancients paladin to multiclass. I can't decide which one I like the most:

Bard:
Paladin 15/Swords Bard5 (extra attack is redundant, but Font of Inspiration is a must have)
Paladin 13/Lore Bard 7 (extra spells are nice too)

Sorcerer:
Paladin 13/Sorcerer 7 (the more sorcery points, the better)

Warlock:
Paladin 13/Warlock 7 (4th level spells and slot from both)

No matter which option I end up choosing, I want those 4th level paladin spells (Find Greater Steed) AND improved divine smite.

I mean, I can see great pros and cons in each choice.

I wouldn't exactly say that Bard/Paladin is significantly worse than the Sorcerer/Paladin or Warlock/Paladin, because they all have their own merits.

[Joe the Rat]

Because the Paladin Librarian wants to up his Lore game, and it happens to accelerate his smite pool at the same time. But he's a bit of an odd duck. He's shielding or buffing the other smackers, then going in for the holy fire destruction. The party has a big front line, so he can afford to act as a buffer before nova striker.

It's also par for the course. In addition to the Palabard who thinks he's a Cleric, I have a Bard that thinks he's a Rogue, An Artificer that thinks he's a Necromancer, A Monk that thinks he's an arcane trickster, and a Hexblade/Battlemaster that thinks he's the world's greatest swordsman... actually that's not too far off.

The Eldritch Knight/Wizard and Other Warlock are the normal ones.

[jdolch]

[...]

Sorcerer:
Paladin 13/Sorcerer 7 (the more sorcery points, the better)

Warlock:
Paladin 13/Warlock 7 (4th level spells and slot from both)

No matter which option I end up choosing, I want those 4th level paladin spells (Find Greater Steed) AND improved divine smite.

If you want something from a role-playing perspective then absolutely. Just pick what you like and have fun. But from a power perspective a 6/14 Sorcadin (or 7/13 in the case of Ancients) is gonna wipe the floor with you. I am just saying, if you consciously leave the path of the pure power play and are aware of that, then you can do whatever you want. Just pick and chose the abilities that you like and go with that. It's not wrong. But i find it odd to then go and ask which one is better from a power perspective when you already decided you're not gonna go with power.

[Damon_Tor]

Bards used require a non lawful alignment. Taking a binding oath is an inherently lawful act. Warlock/paladin makes more sense as long as the oath and the pact are compatible.

[Citan]

If you want something from a role-playing perspective then absolutely. Just pick what you like and have fun. But from a power perspective a 6/14 Sorcadin (or 7/13 in the case of Ancients) is gonna wipe the floor with you. I am just saying, if you consciously leave the path of the pure power play and are aware of that, then you can do whatever you want. Just pick and chose the abilities that you like and go with that. It's not wrong. But i find it odd to then go and ask which one is better from a power perspective when you already decided you're not gonna go with power.
This assertion has absolutely 0 value as is. You'll have to bring a solid case to try and back it, but honestly it will be hard.
There are just so many good ways to pair Paladin and any other CHA caster...



I've been wrestling with four equally possible routes for my ancients paladin to multiclass. I can't decide which one I like the most:

Bard:
Paladin 15/Swords Bard5 (extra attack is redundant, but Font of Inspiration is a must have)
Paladin 13/Lore Bard 7 (extra spells are nice too)

Sorcerer:
Paladin 13/Sorcerer 7 (the more sorcery points, the better)

Warlock:
Paladin 13/Warlock 7 (4th level spells and slot from both)

No matter which option I end up choosing, I want those 4th level paladin spells (Find Greater Steed) AND improved divine smite.

I mean, I can see great pros and cons in each choice.

I wouldn't exactly say that Bard/Paladin is significantly worse than the Sorcerer/Paladin or Warlock/Paladin, because they all have their own merits.
Why not take all?
You're sure you want Find Greater Steed (which is a great idea imo) and Improved Divine Smite (which is a waste imo, especially if you want to make a mounted combatant, but maybe you had something specific in mind).

Find Greater Steed means either Paladin 13, or Bard 10.
I'd strongly suggest Bard 10, although Paladin 14-15 could work too.
Means you have 10 levels left.
I'll put Improved Divine Smite aside while I expose my suggestion, but hey you're free to throw it to dirt as you like if you don't find it better. :)

So I'll work on the assumption you'd like to make a Paladin on Pegasus or something like that.
I'll also work on the assumption you're neither an Ancients Paladin (which definitely wants its level 7) nor a Oathbreaker (+CHA on weapon attacks is so nice) nor a Conquest (most people playing it took it for the synergy around fear effect, so you wouldn't pass on 7 either and possibly not on 9 even).

First, let's tackle the Bard choice: Valor is overall a waste. Glamour can be great but it's really oriented party-support, and I'll guess it's not your goal. So what's left is Lore, Whispers and Swords.
Swords give you a nice "on the fly" bonus AC or movement, but otherwise overlaps Paladin's own Extra Attack. So Swords would make a better case if you instead went the Paladin 14-15 way.
Lore has no overlap, but you could probably do without the extra level 3 max Magic Secrets and otherwise provides you a great defensive ability "in general" but competes with a possible Sentinel/Warcaster/PAM OA.
--> Whispers: short-rest 5d6 damage, once per turn, that can stack on any weapon attack, so can stack with smites too.

So we are at ??? Paladin 6+ / Whispers Bard 10. 4 levels left.
Well, honestly? I'd strongly, sorry, *strongly* suggest either one of the following combinations:
1. Hexblade Warlock 1 / Divine|Shadow Soul Sorcerer 3
2. The exact opposite with Tome Pact ;)

Both cases, you get bunch of great cantrips for attack and utility (Booming Blade, Eldricht Blast, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Mage Hand, etc).
Both case, you'll get the usual Shield / Armor of Agathys / Hex / Comprehend Languages / other.
Both case, you'll also get Shadow Blade which you'll want unless you wanted to go for a PAM/GWM build, or Darkness if you go Shadow/Warlock 3, or Dragon's Breath which can be hilariously good when "auto-twinned" on a flying mount.
Differences?

1a. Divine: Extend metamagic and either Subtle or Quicken. Twin *may* be worth only if you have a great 3rd level spell in mind that you'd want to make someone benefit *in addition* to you and your mount. Other than that? Extended Aid (DS), Death Ward (Magic Secrets option), Haste (Magic Secrets option), Fly (Magic Secrets option), Enhance Ability (Bard), Greater Invisibility (Bard) will be nice, as well as Subtle cast (if no Warcaster and shield off-hand) or Quicken (set up buff when starting a fight).
1b. Shadow: Empower or Careful with Quicken should do it, the main benefit here is Darkness you cast see through.
2. Tome means even more cantrips (Thorns Whip to bring people closer ^^, Guidance) and as many rituals as you can find from 1st and 2nd level, while the other invocation will be spent on either utility or Repelling Blast (choose when enemies are allowed to come and get killed by you) or classic Devil Sight.

EDIT: Ahem, just noticed the "ancients" word in your post. Damn I missed it because no caps on first letter. XD
Well, it means dropping the single-level dip. :) Both "Metamagics" and "Rituals" features are great, and both Warlocks and Sorcerer are mostly uninteresting at level 2.

EDIT 2: forgot to suggest something including IDS, which means Ancients Paladin (AP) 13 at least.
Considering also Undying Sentinel at level 15 which may be tempting...
IF AP 15
1. Swords Bard 5: really, really build upon your sustained damage: pair that with an upcast Shadow Blade and you'll be a very strong mix of offense and defense.
2. Divine Soul Sorcerer 5: tankiness to the extreme by boosting self with Extended Aid and Longstrider then Quickening Spirit Guardians once you're in the melee.
3. Hexblade Warlock 5: for short-rest near-max-smite slots once per turn to stack onto Booming Blade + Divine Smite (+ possibly Shadow Blade ;)).

IF AP 13
1. SB / DSS / HBW 7: the same as above, except improved thanks to more spell slots and access to Polymorph/Greater Invisibility/Death Ward.
2. Hexblade Warlock 1 / Lore Bard 6: first for cantrips and shield, second for Magic Secrets if you really want a spell Warlock nor Sorcerer have.
3. Hexblade Warlock 1 / Lore(skills)|Glamour(emergency move)|Swords("permanent" 10 feet speed buff) 3 / DS|Shadow(confer above) Sorcerer 3: the most versatile without DM fiat (because with DM fiat the most is obviously Tome Warlock 5 ;)).

[Arkhios]

Why not take all?
You're sure you want Find Greater Steed (which is a great idea imo) and Improved Divine Smite (which is a waste imo, especially if you want to make a mounted combatant, but maybe you had something specific in mind).

Find Greater Steed means either Paladin 13, or Bard 10.
I'd strongly suggest Bard 10, although Paladin 14-15 could work too.
Means you have 10 levels left.
I'll put Improved Divine Smite aside while I expose my suggestion, but hey you're free to throw it to dirt as you like if you don't find it better. :)

So I'll work on the assumption you'd like to make a Paladin on Pegasus or something like that.
I'll also work on the assumption you're neither an Ancients Paladin (which definitely wants its level 7) nor a Oathbreaker (+CHA on weapon attacks is so nice) nor a Conquest (most people playing it took it for the synergy around fear effect, so you wouldn't pass on 7 either and possibly not on 9 even).

First, let's tackle the Bard choice: Valor is overall a waste. Glamour can be great but it's really oriented party-support, and I'll guess it's not your goal. So what's left is Lore, Whispers and Swords.
Swords give you a nice "on the fly" bonus AC or movement, but otherwise overlaps Paladin's own Extra Attack. So Swords would make a better case if you instead went the Paladin 14-15 way.
Lore has no overlap, but you could probably do without the extra level 3 max Magic Secrets and otherwise provides you a great defensive ability "in general" but competes with a possible Sentinel/Warcaster/PAM OA.
--> Whispers: short-rest 5d6 damage, once per turn, that can stack on any weapon attack, so can stack with smites too.

So we are at ??? Paladin 6+ / Whispers Bard 10. 4 levels left.
Well, honestly? I'd strongly, sorry, *strongly* suggest either one of the following combinations:
1. Hexblade Warlock 1 / Divine|Shadow Soul Sorcerer 3
2. The exact opposite with Tome Pact ;)

Both cases, you get bunch of great cantrips for attack and utility (Booming Blade, Eldricht Blast, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Mage Hand, etc).
Both case, you'll get the usual Shield / Armor of Agathys / Hex / Comprehend Languages / other.
Both case, you'll also get Shadow Blade which you'll want unless you wanted to go for a PAM/GWM build, or Darkness if you go Shadow/Warlock 3, or Dragon's Breath which can be hilariously good when "auto-twinned" on a flying mount.
Differences?

1a. Divine: Extend metamagic and either Subtle or Quicken. Twin *may* be worth only if you have a great 3rd level spell in mind that you'd want to make someone benefit *in addition* to you and your mount. Other than that? Extended Aid (DS), Death Ward (Magic Secrets option), Haste (Magic Secrets option), Fly (Magic Secrets option), Enhance Ability (Bard), Greater Invisibility (Bard) will be nice, as well as Subtle cast (if no Warcaster and shield off-hand) or Quicken (set up buff when starting a fight).
1b. Shadow: Empower or Careful with Quicken should do it, the main benefit here is Darkness you cast see through.
2. Tome means even more cantrips (Thorns Whip to bring people closer ^^, Guidance) and as many rituals as you can find from 1st and 2nd level, while the other invocation will be spent on either utility or Repelling Blast (choose when enemies are allowed to come and get killed by you) or classic Devil Sight.

EDIT: Ahem, just noticed the "ancients" word in your post. Damn I missed it because no caps on first letter. XD
Well, it means dropping the single-level dip. :) Both "Metamagics" and "Rituals" features are great, and both Warlocks and Sorcerer are mostly uninteresting at level 2.

EDIT 2: forgot to suggest something including IDS, which means Ancients Paladin (AP) 13 at least.
Considering also Undying Sentinel at level 15 which may be tempting...
IF AP 15
1. Swords Bard 5: really, really build upon your sustained damage: pair that with an upcast Shadow Blade and you'll be a very strong mix of offense and defense.
2. Divine Soul Sorcerer 5: tankiness to the extreme by boosting self with Extended Aid and Longstrider then Quickening Spirit Guardians once you're in the melee.
3. Hexblade Warlock 5: for short-rest near-max-smite slots once per turn to stack onto Booming Blade + Divine Smite (+ possibly Shadow Blade ;)).

IF AP 13
1. SB / DSS / HBW 7: the same as above, except improved thanks to more spell slots and access to Polymorph/Greater Invisibility/Death Ward.
2. Hexblade Warlock 1 / Lore Bard 6: first for cantrips and shield, second for Magic Secrets if you really want a spell Warlock nor Sorcerer have.
3. Hexblade Warlock 1 / Lore(skills)|Glamour(emergency move)|Swords("permanent" 10 feet speed buff) 3 / DS|Shadow(confer above) Sorcerer 3: the most versatile without DM fiat (because with DM fiat the most is obviously Tome Warlock 5 ;)).

Honestly, I didn't mean to hijack this thread to talk about my character, but I guess I'll "have to" respond to this, if for nothing else, then at least for common courtesy as you did put so much effort to your post. I do appreciate it, although I do have quite a specific concept in mind.

My paladin (currently at 5th level) has Dual Wielder and Resilient (con) feats, and the Defense Fighting Style, so Swords Bard would be extremely helpful with providing the two-weapon fighting style I wasn't able to get as a paladin, but also because of the Blade Flourishes. Unfortunately Shadow Blade isn't a bard spell by default, but then again, I would probably be concentrating on different spells anyway.

For my Greater Steed I want Dire Wolf (not a reference to Princess Mononoke, surprisingly enough). Not exactly for a mounted combatant build, but rather as a strong companion of sorts, similar to ranger's beast companion (because, in a sense, the steed can work like that as well).

The character is innately strong physically (str 18), and honestly, I've never like the idea of using a mental ability score (nor constitution) in place of strength or dexterity when it comes to using weapons in a fight. I get it, that for a hexblade it's supposed to be a mystical connection between the patron, the weapon, and the warlock, but... it's just not for me. I prefer robust strength or agile finesse instead (in this case, strength obviously).

So, key things to consider: Dual Wielder + Improved Divine Smite + Dire Wolf companion (not a mount exactly) + the feel of an enlightened barbarian with a deep connection to the forces of nature. Also, a balance with sustainable damage and defense. I am the group's de facto tank (the members of our group are, myself excluded, a Beast Master Ranger, Underdark Druid, Drunken Master Monk, Valor Bard, and a Storm Sorcerer)

[Keravath]

One of the reasons the sorcadin is more popular would be the extra smites. Many folks add a full caster to Paladin to increase smite potential. Besides meta magic .. the sorcerer can also cycle sorcery points into additional spell slots giving them a few more high level smites or a number of additional low level ones compared to any other full caster.

[jdolch]

This assertion has absolutely 0 value as is. You'll have to bring a solid case to try and back it, but honestly it will be hard.
There are just so many good ways to pair Paladin and any other CHA caster...



So we are at ??? Paladin 6+ / Whispers Bard 10. 4 levels left.
Well, honestly? I'd strongly, sorry, *strongly* suggest either one of the following combinations:
1. Hexblade Warlock 1 / Divine|Shadow Soul Sorcerer 3
2. The exact opposite with Tome Pact ;)

So my assertion, that Paladin 7-13 is strictly inferior to going straight to Caster, has "absolutely 0 Value"? And then you go ahead and "strongly" suggest a build that capitalizes exactly on what I just said and you just claimed is untrue?

That's quite some trick you pulled there, good sir.

[Arkhios]

jdolch, here's a question for you:

did you ever consider these very important things...

1) bards get a lot more other class features along with their spell slots than sorcerers do.
2) divine smite caps to 5d8 extra radiant damage with a 4th-level spell slot (excluding any situational bonus dice, because they are irrelevant to the level of an expended spell slot).
3a) every class with the Spellcasting feature get just as many spell slots in accordance to their effective* spellcasting level.
3b) for the purposes of Divine Smite, only up to 4th-level spell slots matter. Paladin 13+ (effective spellcasting level 7) gets just as many 4th level spell slots as a 7th level full caster does. Also, a Paladin 20 gets exactly same amount of spell slots for levels 1 to 5 as a full caster 20 gets. The only differences are that a Paladin doesn't get cantrips or spell slots for levels 6 to 9.

*if you look closely at the spellcasting progression for a pure paladin or ranger, exactly ½ of their class level (rounded up) equals their effective spellcasting level. 13:2=6.5; rounded up it's 7. Similarly, a 19th level Eldritch Knight's effective spellcasting level is 7, because 19:3=6.333~; again, rounded up it's 7. As with a full spellcaster, a 7th level means they can cast 4th-level spells.

However, to my point we go again: It's true that for paladins (and rangers, as well as arcane tricksters and eldritch knights) multiclassing to a full spellcaster provides a short-cut to getting higher level spell slots faster. In the long run, that's still quite irrelevant because you still don't get more spell slots than anyone else. By default. Sorcerers can use their class feature to generate more, either by spending their limited sorcery points or by consuming their higher level spell slots in order to create low level spell slots.
Bard gets a lot of other useful abilities that shouldn't be forgotten, EVEN THOUGH they might not add to Maximum Damage Output and help us spam "nuke from the orbit". Each class should be evaluated by their own merits, not by comparing them to each other, because each of the three charisma based spellcasting classes (other than paladins) have their own things they're powerful at. Power (both mechanically and contextually) is much more than just raw potential damage output.

[Sception]

Bard gets a lot of good features, but they're pretty highly themed. Sorcerer features are more broadly applicable. As someone already put it 'concept agnostic'. Any cha gish is going to love how quicken lets them cast a thematically appropriate spell and wack some monster in the face with their sword in the same turn. While bardic inspiration is a fantastic class feature, the range of cha gish character concepts that really fit with that ability is significantly more narrow.

[Citan]

So my assertion, that Paladin 7-13 is strictly inferior to going straight to Caster, has "absolutely 0 Value"? And then you go ahead and "strongly" suggest a build that capitalizes exactly on what I just said and you just claimed is untrue?

That's quite some trick you pulled there, good sir.
You answered to a post wondering about what multiclass to pick which interrogated Bard and Warlock, to say, "Sorcadin 6/14 would wipe the floor".
It is still a profundly dumbfounded assertion. You were talking about a 20th level character here.
There are MANY builds with Paladin that would hold well against your so-called prodigy.
I just suggested a build from the perspective of one that like having as many spells as possible, and having Magic Secrets, which is useful when you get them early.

But honestly against the 6/14 Pal, any decent multiclass Paladin with access to 2nd or 3rd level spells is equally good. Just in a different way.

For example, pit a simple Vengeance Paladin, DEX based, with just access to Haste, and two levels of Rogue for Cunning Action... Your Sorcadin won't be able to do a thing. Even if he also uses Haste. First just has to Dash away then use arrows. And once he thinks there is enough damage dealt he can simply use Banishing Smite to either put you down or get a minute to move away or maybe prepare traps.

Or, in fact, any Paladin with simply 2 levels of Warlock for Repelling Blast.
Or any Devotion Paladin paired with some Rogue for Sneak Attack.

Chances of landing spells against any Paladin are light after all. And bumping AC with Shield has limits.

And if you really care about pitting up heavy multiclass casters, your Sorcadin would be blown to smithereens by a Devotion Paladin 3 / Whispers Bard 10 / Hexblade Warlock 5 / Fighter 2, Dex based. Don't bother boosting DEX. Just be an Half-Elf with Elven Accuracy, Lucky and Alert, win Initiative (bonus 2+3+5 and Lucky), Action Surge cast Greater Invisibility, use Extra Attack from Warlock if at range:
To hit: 11+2 (Archery), with quadruple advantage (advantage + Elven Accuracy + Lucky) and 30% chance to crit, dealing 5d6 (Whispers) + 4d8 extra damage on top of the top regular twice 1d8+3.
Dealing average above 50 HP without crit.
If melee is possible, it's even worse. You can add 2*5d8 on top of that. Average 45.
And, sadly, Shield won't help any here. Even a +5 won't change against quadruple advantage.
So on turn 1, this guy dealt average of 95 HP if in melee, and can repeat that for the next three turns.
How much HP would a Sorcerer/Paladin have? 13+(5*6)+(13*4)+(19*3) = 13+30+52+56 = 141 HP.
Basically the Sorcadin either need to land a definitive spell on his enemy, or flee with a Dimension Door or equivalent, otherwise he's dead next round.



Bard gets a lot of other useful abilities that shouldn't be forgotten, EVEN THOUGH they might not add to Maximum Damage Output and help us spam "nuke from the orbit". Each class should be evaluated by their own merits, not by comparing them to each other, because each of the three charisma based spellcasting classes (other than paladins) have their own things they're powerful at. Power (both mechanically and contextually) is much more than just raw potential damage output.
Which is actually false, confer above illustration.
Also, FYI my latest discussions with people made me conclude that the best ever nova someone could do, self-enable, was a stupidly complex multiclass with...
- Whispers Bard 5 (as usual but sadly much less than the previous)
- Paladin 2 (Smite)
- Hexblade Warlock 5
- Champion 3 (Action Surge, improved crit range)
- Grave Cleric 2 (For the nasty "vulnerable to all damage of next instance")
Finish with Sorcerer 3 (Quicken a spell if needed), Swashbuckler Rogue (Initiative and more Expertise) or Warlock 7 (higher nova) and Champion 4 (one more ASI).

Idea is to enable the situation when you have advantage against the target then can use Cleric's Channel Divinity before unleashing a (very) powerful strike with 99% chance to hit and 30% chance crit. Few creatures will stand still after that. And although it's obviously better in melee, it also works well at range.
Honestly though it's extremely convoluted.
Better have a reliable party to get you advantage and ensure you can activate CD and attack in the same turn, so you can focus on buffing your damage (especially in melee: upcast Shadow Blade + Booming Blade + Whispers + Eldricht Smite + Divine Smite amount to 21 die. Make it 42 if critical -hello Diviner Wizard -, double total damage thanks to vulnerability -which also bypass immunities \o/-).

[Waterdeep Merch]

Piggybacking here, just like to point out that the main advantage of a bardadin over a sorcadin isn't in raw power, especially if SCAG cantrips are on the table. It's support and utility.

Not that sorcerer doesn't have utility capabilities as well (subtle+illusion spells are great), but the bard's spell list and skill talents allow for a lot more flexibility in either overcoming or bypassing social and adventuring obstacles. A paladin chassis's also an ideal buff-bot, thanks to Aura of Protection, high AC, and HP protecting their concentration. Paladins have a big question mark for what to do with their bonus actions that can become an exclamation point when you introduce bardic inspiration. I wouldn't call them better than sorcadins, but they distinguish themselves in a completely different way. Apples to oranges here.

[Galactkaktus]

But honestly against the 6/14 Pal, any decent multiclass Paladin with access to 2nd or 3rd level spells is equally good. Just in a different way.

For example, pit a simple Vengeance Paladin, DEX based, with just access to Haste, and two levels of Rogue for Cunning Action... Your Sorcadin won't be able to do a thing. Even if he also uses Haste. First just has to Dash away then use arrows. And once he thinks there is enough damage dealt he can simply use Banishing Smite to either put you down or get a minute to move away or maybe prepare traps.

Does cunning action even do anything on a place that is big enough for him to be kited in that way since paladins should have easy access to mounted combat? And if the sorcadin ever gets close to the opponent paladin counterspell becomes a real issue.

[jdolch]

jdolch, here's a question for you:

did you ever consider these very important things...

1) bards get a lot more other class features along with their spell slots than sorcerers do. Apparently not enough
2) divine smite caps to 5d8 extra radiant damage with a 4th-level spell slot (excluding any situational bonus dice, because they are irrelevant to the level of an expended spell slot).See below
3a) every class with the Spellcasting feature get just as many spell slots in accordance to their effective* spellcasting level.see below
3b) for the purposes of Divine Smite, only up to 4th-level spell slots matter. Paladin 13+ (effective spellcasting level 7) gets just as many 4th level spell slots as a 7th level full caster does. Also, a Paladin 20 gets exactly same amount of spell slots for levels 1 to 5 as a full caster 20 gets. The only differences are that a Paladin doesn't get cantrips or spell slots for levels 6 to 9.see below

*if you look closely at the spellcasting progression for a pure paladin or ranger, exactly ½ of their class level (rounded up) equals their effective spellcasting level. 13:2=6.5; rounded up it's 7. Similarly, a 19th level Eldritch Knight's effective spellcasting level is 7, because 19:3=6.333~; again, rounded up it's 7. As with a full spellcaster, a 7th level means they can cast 4th-level spells.

However, to my point we go again: It's true that for paladins (and rangers, as well as arcane tricksters and eldritch knights) multiclassing to a full spellcaster provides a short-cut to getting higher level spell slots faster. In the long run, that's still quite irrelevant because you still don't get more spell slots than anyone else. By default. Sorcerers can use their class feature to generate more, either by spending their limited sorcery points or by consuming their higher level spell slots in order to create low level spell slots. Seems like you answered your own question
Bard gets a lot of other useful abilities that shouldn't be forgotten, EVEN THOUGH they might not add to Maximum Damage Output and help us spam "nuke from the orbit".Never said anything else Each class should be evaluated by their own merits, not by comparing them to each other, because each of the three charisma based spellcasting classes (other than paladins) have their own things they're powerful at. Power (both mechanically and contextually) is much more than just raw potential damage output.never said anything else


You answered to a post wondering about what multiclass to pick which interrogated Bard and Warlock, to say, "Sorcadin 6/14 would wipe the floor". The point i was trying to make wasn't so much the Sorcadin part, but the Paladin 6/X-part. Going Paladin 13 is "wasting" 7 Levels that could be better spend elsewhere, from a pure optimization perspective
It is still a profundly dumbfoundedid be very careful here assertion. You were talking about a 20th level character here.
There are MANY builds with Paladin that would hold well against your so-called prodigy. I never said anything different. And it's not "my Prodigy". Neither did I make the build nor did I say it is the be all end all. It was just an example.
I just suggested a build from the perspective of one that like having as many spells as possible, and having Magic Secrets, which is useful when you get them early.

But honestly against the 6/14 Pal, any decent multiclass Paladin with access to 2nd or 3rd level spells is equally good. Just in a different way. If you formulate it as a universal statement like that, then: nope. Some are, some aren't.

For example, pit a simple Vengeance Paladin, DEX based, with just access to Haste, and two levels of Rogue for Cunning Action... Your Sorcadin won't be able to do a thing. Even if he also uses Haste. First just has to Dash away then use arrows. And once he thinks there is enough damage dealt he can simply use Banishing Smite to either put you down or get a minute to move away or maybe prepare traps. Why are we suddenly talking about some weird pvp scenario. This thread is about build efficiency.

Or, in fact, any Paladin with simply 2 levels of Warlock for Repelling Blast.
Or any Devotion Paladin paired with some Rogue for Sneak Attack.

Chances of landing spells against any Paladin are light after all. And bumping AC with Shield has limits.

And if you really care about pitting up heavy multiclass casters, your Sorcadin would be blown to smithereens by a Devotion Paladin 3 / Whispers Bard 10 / Hexblade Warlock 5 / Fighter 2, Dex based. Don't bother boosting DEX. Just be an Half-Elf with Elven Accuracy, Lucky and Alert, win Initiative (bonus 2+3+5 and Lucky), Action Surge cast Greater Invisibility, use Extra Attack from Warlock if at range: And again you somehow manage to miss the fact that, while you try to argue against me, you actually make my point. You again went no further than 6 (or in this case, 3) levels in Paladin, before you multiclassed into Casters. Exactly what i said is beneficial.
To hit: 11+2 (Archery), with quadruple advantage (advantage + Elven Accuracy + Lucky) and 30% chance to crit, dealing 5d6 (Whispers) + 4d8 extra damage on top of the top regular twice 1d8+3.
Dealing average above 50 HP without crit.
If melee is possible, it's even worse. You can add 2*5d8 on top of that. Average 45.
And, sadly, Shield won't help any here. Even a +5 won't change against quadruple advantage.
So on turn 1, this guy dealt average of 95 HP if in melee, and can repeat that for the next three turns.
How much HP would a Sorcerer/Paladin have? 13+(5*6)+(13*4)+(19*3) = 13+30+52+56 = 141 HP.
Basically the Sorcadin either need to land a definitive spell on his enemy, or flee with a Dimension Door or equivalent, otherwise he's dead next round.Yeah, still no idea why I would fight another PC ...

Just to remind you of what I actually said was, in my opinion, the reason that Pala/Sorc is often picked over Pala/Bard:


IMO it might even be an OOC reason:

Players who want to be a Paladin, the Stalwart Defender, the Knight in Shining Armor, etc., are not the kind of players who want to play a guy in women's clothes, whistling a song while he dances in his tights.

I am exaggerating of course, but i think there is such a vast thematic chasm between these two concepts (as they are often played) that it just doesn't make sense. Of course if there would be mechanic benefits on a scale that surpasses other options it might be different, but there isn't. And especially the Sorcerer as a caster who isn't bound to any specific concept, is a much more attractive multi class option, that doesn't force the player to alter his original Paladin concept to accommodate it.

Anything I said after that wasn't Anti-Bard. It was Anti-"More than 6 or 7 levels of Paladin before multiclassing". And I have yet to see any valid argument against that thesis.

Apparently it's really difficult to actually read what somebody wrote before hitting the keyboard to let out another wall of text trying to disprove a point nobody made.

*sigh*

Fine, do what you think is best.

[Arkhios]

Just to remind you of what I actually said was, in my opinion, the reason that Pala/Sorc is often picked over Pala/Bard

[...]

Apparently it's really difficult to actually read what somebody wrote before hitting the keyboard to let out another wall of text trying to disprove a point nobody made.

*sigh*

Fine, do what you think is best.

I mentioned sorcery points w/ Font of Magic to show you that I am AWARE they can do that, and thus effectively sorcerer's may have more spell slots. However, it's not for free and there's a huge opportunity cost in that those sorcery points (even those gained from higher than level 4 slots) would be far better used for metamagics rather than making more spell slots.

[Citan]

Just to remind you of what I actually said was, in my opinion, the reason that Pala/Sorc is often picked over Pala/Bard:



Anything I said after that wasn't Anti-Bard. It was Anti-"More than 6 or 7 levels of Paladin before multiclassing". And I have yet to see any valid argument against that thesis.

Apparently it's really difficult to actually read what somebody wrote before hitting the keyboard to let out another wall of text trying to disprove a point nobody made.

*sigh*

Fine, do what you think is best.
You say "in power play Sorcadin 6/14 wipes floor". I just tried to illustrate that...
1. This assertion is completely pointless, because there are too many variables in any given campaign to be able to make any really useful comparison. A pure Paladin would be straight better in any harsh campaign with little rests.

And a pure Paladin would be much, much more valuable to any team in the late levels, simply thanks to access to Circle of Powers (advantage on saving throws, 2 times per day) and Auras being extended to 30 feet (*permanent*).

2. I did not at all make your point either about later Paladin levels being wasted, confer above, I just wanted to demonstrate that the specific example of highest nova damage, which is the most common reason for people to dual-class Paladin with Sorcerer is not best made with a Sorcadin.
And by the way, that build I presented is all about nova damage. Besides that, it's certainly playable but clunky as hell mechanically (if you actually had to level it) and thematically. And inferior in several areas compared to simple dual-classes.

[Galactkaktus]

A pure Paladin would be straight better in any harsh campaign with little rests.

Why? They both get their resources back on long rests but the sorcadin have more resources.

[jdolch]

A pure Paladin would be straight better in any harsh campaign with little rests.

No. Just No.

As evidenced by the simple fact that dipping 1-2 levels into Hexblade (among other things, making the Paladin SAD + Giving access to Agonizing Eldritch Blast as a potent ranged option, something the Paladin sorely lacks + Access to the awesome shield spell + 2 short rest spell slot to cast shield, something beyond valuable in any high pressure campaign) or dipping 3 levels into Shadow Sorcerer (among other things giving access to Quicken GFB/BB + Shield Spell + Eyes of the Darkness Combo + Twinned spell (e.g. Haste) + Quickened Hold Person Combo) is always going to be better than going straight Paladin. And that's just 2 examples of how you can tailor your character.

You don't need to go straight Paladin for Circle of Power (being Paladin level 17) or Aura Improvements (being Paladin level 18) invalidating that argument right there without even doing an opportunity costs analysis.

Even if you, for some reason, go straight to level 18. Now you're competing with the 2/18 build and frickin' Wish.

[Corran]

No. Just No.

As evidenced by the simple fact that dipping 1-2 levels into Hexblade (among other things, making the Paladin SAD + Giving access to Agonizing Eldritch Blast as a potent ranged option, something the Paladin sorely lacks + Access to the awesome shield spell + a short rest spell slot) or dipping 3 levels into Shadow Sorcerer (among other things giving access to Quicken GFB/BB + Shield Spell + Eyes of the Darkness Combo + Twinned spell (e.g. Haste) + Quickened Hold Person Combo) is always going to be better than going straight Paladin. And that's just 2 examples of how you can tailor your character. For example if you play CoS and know there will be a lot of undead you can go divine soul sorcerer and get access to cleric spells.
Keep in mind that you lose and delay other things from your main class when you multiclass. Yes, the paladins lack a good ranged attack, but if you are mobile enough (like if for example using a mount) then you can make up for it most of the times. Making your paladin SAD is of little value if you don't find a way to boost their dpr. Hold person + smite has its uses, but they are very situational. It's a good gimmick, in fact a very good gimmick that I personally love, but in the end it's just that, a gimmick. There are a lot of scenarios where a multiclass build can be better than its parent class, but saying it just is better... I dunno, seems like a biased conclusion at least to me.


Even if you, for some reason, go straight to level 20. Now you're competing with the 2/18 build and frickin' Wish.
Be a pure caster and get access to it 2 whole levels earlier. There is not much value you gain out of these two paladin levels anyway.

[jdolch]

Sure, if you ignore the fact that you have to stay alive for that long. And both taking 1-2 levels in Paladin as a caster (giving Heavy Armor, an early level hp boost and access to Lay on Hands for last minute revives) as well as on the other hand getting Access to the Shield Spell as a Paladin dipping caster are going to be massive boosts to the chance to get that far.

Do you lose something? Of course. But what you gain is worth so much more.

[Corran]

Sure, if you ignore the fact that you have to stay alive for that long. And both taking 2 levels in Paladin as a caster (giving Heavy Armor, an early level hp boost and access to Lay on Hands for last minute revives) as well as getting Access to the Shield Spell as a Paladin are going to be massive boosts to the chance to get that far.
What I was hinting to, is that taking a paladin2/casterX and putting it in the front line is something that needs a lot of investment and even then it wont be the best idea a lot of the time. The backline is a better place for it, but then again you are always -2 levels than just being caster X+2. Is the ability to be a little more durable in case your caster is cornered worth delaying your main caster class by 2 levels (and also by having to commit to things -like a 13 str or feats- that a singleclass caster would not)? I clearly think not, but by all means if you disagree and think it's a good plan, then more power to you.

[jdolch]

It's just impossible to say. It can go either way or maybe not even matter. Let's agree on that. I personally would invest that slight delay to get a better chance of surviving the early levels. Of course if you have a group that carries you until ~level 8 then, well, you know... All i can say is that in the campaign i am playing right now, the caster would already be dead (at level 1) if it weren't for the Paladins Lay on Hands saving his bacon. Something the Paladin could only do because he wasn't one-shot himself, thanks to 18 AC.

But i would say we just leave this discussion at this point. Everybody made their arguments and this has really nothing to do with the original question of this thread.

[Galactkaktus]

I just want an answer to why a pure paladin would handle less rests better than an sorcadin.

[Man_Over_Game]

I just want an answer to why a pure paladin would handle less rests better than an sorcadin.

A paladin has those "always on" auras, and their Extra Attack at level 5, where a Sorcerer/Paladin does need to rely more on spell slots if it hasn't yet hit the level 5 in the Paladin department. Paladins are probably the most resource dependent martial class, but they're still less resource dependent than any full caster. A straight Paladin also has more health to soak damage than the Sorcadin. A Sorcadin isn't much more rest-dependent than a straight Paladin, but this is obviously determined by how many Sorcerer levels you decide to dip into.

----------------------

As for the heart of the question, I find that Paladins can really only choose to be in one place: the Front Line.

However, with the Bard abilities (support friends, use skills, benefits on rests), with their spell lists (all ranged Concentration/Utility/Support/Control spells), they generally don't ever want to be in the melee of combat. Even the most melee of the Bardic options (Valor and Swords) want to be a caster first and a frontliner second.

The Sorcerer, on the other hand, is a bit of an anomaly. All over the place, they have benefits to being near enemies, from their Sword spells, to the Twinned castings, Close-ranged control auras (Storm), increased tankiness (Dragon), and enhanced healing on you or adjacent allies (Divine Soul). They also gain access to several defensive spells, like Shield. Everything about them seems to scream that they want to be in the thick of combat, but they just don't have the support needed by their subclasses to do so consistently. When they eventually make a melee Sorcerer, I imagine it will be very popular, and likely will replace the Sorcadin as far as popularity goes (personally, I'd create a lot of overlap between the Paladin and the Melee Sorcerer subclass, so it's terribly inefficient to do both).

A good example is the Stone Sorcerer UA, who relies on defensive abilities and teleports to aid his allies.

TLDR: Bard has a lot of support for ranged, Sorcerer has a lot of support for melee, and nobody plays a ranged Paladin.

[Galactkaktus]

A paladin has those "always on" auras, and their Extra Attack at level 5, where a Sorcerer/Paladin does need to rely more on spell slots if it hasn't yet hit the level 5 in the Paladin department.[/B]

In this particular case it's a 6/14 sorcadin so both has extra attack. Since that was what he said was worse with fewer rests than a pure paladin.

[Pex]

Anything I said after that wasn't Anti-Bard. It was Anti-"More than 6 or 7 levels of Paladin before multiclassing". And I have yet to see any valid argument against that thesis.



I'm fond of 7th level Devotion for immunity to charm. It may not be relevant as often as Ancient's resistance to spell damage, but when it is it's a big deal. Once you hit 7th level might as well go 8th for the ASI/Feat. For 9th level that's when you decide which is more important to you, what you get from multiclassing or 3rd level Paladin spells. For my character multiclassing into Sorcerer was more important, but after taking 4 levels now the further paladin levels are more important. I'm a warrior, not spellcaster.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I'm fond of 7th level Devotion for immunity to charm. It may not be relevant as often as Ancient's resistance to spell damage, but when it is it's a big deal. Once you hit 7th level might as well go 8th for the ASI/Feat. For 9th level that's when you decide which is more important to you, what you get from multiclassing or 3rd level Paladin spells. For my character multiclassing into Sorcerer was more important, but after taking 4 levels now the further paladin levels are more important. I'm a warrior, not spellcaster.
Power-wise, spellcasting's hard to dispute. But there's something to be said for making a working concept by sticking to more paladin levels, and you certainly don't fall behind the power curve enough to really care. With my planned bardadin, I'm sticking paladin until 11th for Improved Divine Smite.

Not because it's more powerful, but because like you, I'd prefer to be more of a warrior than a caster.

[Misterwhisper]

The main reason that there are not nearly as many Bard/Paladins compared to Sorcerer or warlock paladins is, in my opinion:

1. Bards do not get as nearly of a reliable ranged attack from Bard as they would Warlock.
2. It only takes 2 levels of Warlock to get everything you want out of the class.
3. Sorcerer can convert higher spell slots that are not normally used for smiting into more spell slots of lower level.
4. Paladin's spell slots grow much slower so if what to fuel more smites, it is much quicker to gain spell levels in a full casting class.
5. Warlock especially fills holes in the Paladin design with giving short rest smite fuel, and it helps to solve a lot of stat issues due to hex blade.
6. Paladins do not get cantrips at all, so either of them give tons of utility and at least some.
7. Bard's class abilities are almost all defensive, smite machines are built to smite more.
8. Bards do not have a spell refill ability like warlock does, or the conversion of a sorcerer.
9. Hexblades specifically are just almost specifically made to mesh well with paladins.

Not to start a different argument but overall Warlock and Sorcerer as classes are fairly weak and need a major patch up to make them competitive with other classes, bards are one of the best in the game, and are arguably the most varied and supportive class in the game.

[dgnslyr]

I'll add that Sorcadin has the benefit of better burst damage from Quickened-Hold Person into an auto-crit smite, and your choice of better damage and durability from Draconic origin or better access to utility spells as a Divine Soul.

In a practical sense, people play Sorcadins because they're interested in optimizing their Paladin, and Sorcerer is the best multiclass for enabling it; if they just wanted to cast and blast, they'd play a pure caster. Bardadin isn't bad for its own merits, but it ends up being a bard with heavy armor and Smites instead of being the roided-out hyper-paladin that people want and get from Sorcadin.

I still hold that Bard is the best caster in 5e, though, and any levels spent dipping means fewer levels in The Best Caster In 5e.

[Acavia]

2 Paladin-18 Bard, College of Swords, has a lot of benefits.

1) If centered on melee damage, not caring about DC spells, and plan to get giant belt, it can have high overall attributes. You could start Variant Human: Str 13, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 14. Then take Resilient (con) to start con at 16.

2) Get 4 ASIs with 5th from Variant Human and with no need to increase other attributes, you could take could take Con up to 20 or 18 and get Tough or lucky aftering starting with Polearm Master at 4 and GWM at 8 for 3rd attack with +10 to damage.

3) At later levels, you get overall +2.5 AC boost on average by being able to add 1d6 every round of attacks to your AC via Blade Flourish.

4) Get Holy Weapon (level 10 magical secrets) with three attacks per round, if Polearm, pretty early (level 12 with smites or level 11 if only one level of paladin.)

5) Simulacrum. Since season 8 allows downtime usage to cast spells, if you are playing AL, at level 20, you could Wish (magical secrets) for a simulacrum on downtime day 1, then downtime day 2, True Polymorph it into something. A good target would be a Marilith, which gets 7 attacks, 6 of them with its longsword, that you could Holy Weapon. And since the form of True Polymorph and not sim, you can heal it.

6) Foresight - advantage on saves and attacks a whole day. So your Maralith sim could be attacking with 6 Holy Weapons, plus a 7th tail attack, while you are attacking with # GWM polearm attacks at advantage. Even before smiting, you could do close to 200 damage a round between your main and sim and if smite could get it near 300.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I'd say spells.

Two levels of Warlock gives Agonizing Eldritch Blast, a superb range attack Paladins lack. Add in Hex and they don't need to be Vengeance Paladin for Hunter's Mark. Plus there's the bonus of two virtually free smites per short rest. It's immediate satisfaction.

Sorcerer provides a good number of Cantrips, which Paladins lack. They can have a good range attack, Firebolt if they want the damage or for more utility there's Ray of Frost or Chill Touch. They get some fun with Minor Illusion and Mage Hand. They also get the 1st level spells Shield and Absorb Elements, good on their own and excellent for a Paladin. It's immediate satisfaction.

Bard spells don't offer immediate satisfaction. Vicious Mockery does not compensate Paladin's lack of a range attack. Paladin's aren't looking for attack spells from 1st level spells. They're looking for buffs, and Bard spells offers very little they can use. They're fine for Bards to cast to help the party, but Paladins aren't support. They're tanks. A Paladin is more wanting to cast Bless or Shield of Faith for anything a Bard has they don't. Second level Bard spells offer nice things, but that's three levels. The lack of immediate satisfaction is a disincentive to multiclass into it as opposed to taking another level paladin or sorcerer/warlock.

Of course this isn't to say someone who does multiclass into bard, even for three or four levels to get the ASI, is doing it wrong. The player can be happy with it, great.

I'd agree with all of this.

I'm currently playing a Paladin 1/Bard 1. I'll probably stop the paladin at 2, and just go full Lore bard. I'm pretty sure that I'll be substantially weaker than a comparable straight class Valor Bard, Paladin, or probably even Lore bard. But my main idea is to pseudo-emulate a hymn-singing cleric, with slightly different abilities and far more support. I'll probably take Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians at 6, which along with Healing Word and Bless from my classes will give him a pretty clerical feel. I'll probably MI feat at 8 for a booming blade, EB and Hellish Rebuke (refluffed to Heavenly Rebuke as a weak stand in for the Redemption's channel divinity I'll never get).

Clearly, the poor guy isn't going to be particularly optimized or powerful. But I'm sure he'll swing the buff/debuff/BC job bards need to do well enough to contribute, and he should be fun to play.