Can you upcast Magic Initiate

[Grear Bylls]

Question: If I have Armor of Agathys from Magic Initiate learned on a wizard (9th level), can I upcast this spell with a 5th level slot? I have the spell learned.

[JNAProductions]

Question: If I have Armor of Agathys from Magic Initiate learned on a wizard (9th level), can I upcast this spell with a 5th level slot? I have the spell learned.

Nope. Not by RAW.

Now, as a DM, I'd probably allow it. Ask your DM, but be prepared for a solid no, since them's the rules.

[Grear Bylls]

Nope. Not by RAW.

Now, as a DM, I'd probably allow it. Ask your DM, but be prepared for a solid no, since them's the rules.

Why not? Any specific reason?

[JNAProductions]

Because of the text of the feat. There's not a ton of wiggle room in it, but enough that, like I said, I'd allow it.

[mgshamster]

Why not? Any specific reason?

Because it is not cast with a spell slot, but rather cast as a 1/day ability. More specifically, the feat says, "You cast it at its lowest level."

[Grear Bylls]

Because it is not cast with a spell slot, but rather cast as a 1/day ability. More specifically, the feat says, "You cast it at its lowest level."

It also says "you learn the spell AND (so and so)". If I have a spell learned, can I not upcast it?

I'm not trying to be rude, just figuring out how this works. Especially for AL

[PhoenixPhyre]

It also says "you learn the spell AND (so and so)". If I have a spell learned, can I not upcast it?

I'm not trying to be rude, just figuring out how this works. Especially for AL

The basic rule is that unless a spell occurs on your class spell list (or you gained it from a feature that explicitly added it to your list, like Magical Secrets or the various domain-spell-like features), you cannot cast it from slots at all. Let alone up-cast it.

This holds for racial spells, feat-based spells, spells gained through boons (if any such exist), spells you can cast from items, etc.

[Mellack]

I believe if you took MI for your own class, you now know the spell. So you could use one of your own slots to cast that spell, but it would use your slot. The MI casting is always at the lowest level and does not use a slot. If you took MI for a different class, you cannot use your spell slots to cast it.

[thrdeye]

I believe if you took MI for your own class, you now know the spell. So you could use one of your own slots to cast that spell, but it would use your slot. The MI casting is always at the lowest level and does not use a slot. If you took MI for a different class, you cannot use your spell slots to cast it.

Does anybody have an official source on this? I've heard this answer consistently enough that I suspect there is one, but I can't find it and in fact my search pulled up a Sage Advice from Jeremy Crawford (thus an official ruling) giving a yes for Eldritch Knight. This could be outdated, a misunderstanding on my part, or based on something specific to the EK that escapes my mind at the moment. Can anybody shed some light on this?

Sorry for not giving the link, I haven't made enough posts. The question is "Can the Eldritch Knight cast a spell learned on Magic Initiate using his spell slots?" and it was answered on January 9, 2016.

Edit: From the Sage Advice Compendium 2015, "If you have spell slots, can you use them to cast the 1st level spell you learn with the Magic Initiate feat? Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes." So what's up with the newer Sage Advice then?

[Arkhios]

Does anybody have an official source on this? I've heard this answer consistently enough that I suspect there is one, but I can't find it and in fact my search pulled up a Sage Advice from Jeremy Crawford (thus an official ruling) giving a yes for Eldritch Knight. This could be outdated, a misunderstanding on my part, or based on something specific to the EK that escapes my mind at the moment. Can anybody shed some light on this?

Sorry for not giving the link, I haven't made enough posts. The question is "Can the Eldritch Knight cast a spell learned on Magic Initiate using his spell slots?" and it was answered on January 9, 2016.

Edit: From the Sage Advice Compendium 2015, "If you have spell slots, can you use them to cast the 1st level spell you learn with the Magic Initiate feat? Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes." So what's up with the newer Sage Advice then?

The quote you edited in is one and the same: at least for me January 9, 2016 leads to the website www.sageadvice.eu which refers to an answer made in 2015. The entry in that website has just been added on a later date, probably because that website didn't exist when the answer was originally given elsewhere (in twitter; Sage Advice Compendium is much more reliable, and frankly, final. That is, if their ruling had changed per the Sage Advice, they would've edited the entry in the compendium as well).

So, yes, you can if the spell is on one of your classes list.

Armor of Agathys is, by default, only on warlock's standard spell list (pact, domain, etc. lists don't count as such). Thus, a wizard who has learned a warlock spell with magic initiate treats that spell a warlock spell. It doesn't become a wizard spell for you. Because charisma is the spellcasting ability for warlock and their spells, any spells learned with Magic Initiate still follow normal rules, except when mentioned otherwise.

Even if a spell you learned did not have any variables that would otherwise depend on your charisma, the spell still counts as a warlock spell, regardless of what your class was. Only when you have levels in warlock, then you can up cast a spell that was learned from a warlock's list. With any spell slots you might have.

[Sigreid]

It also says "you learn the spell AND (so and so)". If I have a spell learned, can I not upcast it?

I'm not trying to be rude, just figuring out how this works. Especially for AL

Your table can make it's own ruling but I seem to remember a sage advice that said if your magic initiate spell is on the list for a class you have you can use your spell slots to cast it normally. But only if it's on a list you have anyway.

[PeteNutButter]

RAW no, and I would definitely not try to build an AL character around it. Even if you could weasel a confused DM into accepting it, you'd not be likely to repeat it.

The issue is wizards can only prepare and cast wizard spells through their spellcasting feature. Same is true for every class... except EK and ranger for some reason. In theory if you were a EK 3+/wizard x you could then take MI and RAW upcast a warlock spell. Some DMs might give you a bit of hassle on that though because it's the sort of RAW that just feels like a mistake.

[Monster Manuel]

This may be a side-discussion, but I've heard in a couple of places that EK and Ranger behave differently with respect to the Magic Initiate feat than other spellcasters do. It has something to do with the way their Spellcasting features are written, based on comments by Jeremy Crawford here (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/27/magic-initiate-feat-ranger-and-eldritch-knight/):

"The EK and the ranger can cheat (RAW) because of how their features are worded. But what you say is RAI."

Can anyone explain the specifics of this? I just don't see it. What is the specific wording that allows the loophole for EK and Ranger spellcasting?

[Willie the Duck]

It also says "you learn the spell AND (so and so)". If I have a spell learned, can I not upcast it?

I'm not trying to be rude, just figuring out how this works. Especially for AL

Honestly, why do you think you can? I don't mean to pull some silly 'the burden of proof is on you' malarkey, but the wording is "You learn that spell and can cast it at its lowest level. Once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you can cast it again." Where out of that, or the spellcasting section of the PHB do you infer an ability to upcast this spell? It tells you how you can use it right there in the feat. Is the wiggle room around the term 'learn?'


Can anyone explain the specifics of this? I just don't see it. What is the specific wording that allows the loophole for EK and Ranger spellcasting?

I'm not sure on the ranger, but the EK's wording consistently words it such that you are knowing and casting wizard spells.

[Monster Manuel]

"You learn that spell and can cast it at its lowest level. Once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you can cast it again."

It's that "and" clause. Two things happen with that 1st level spell when you get the MI feat. 1)You learn the 1st level spell, 2)You can cast that spell once per long rest (spell slots don't factor into this second part at all, you just cast it once at its' lowest level, that's it).

All the upcasting stuff comes from the first part; your spellcasitng feature lets you prepare spells you know using spell slots. So, if you prepare Sorcerer spells, and you took MI and learned an additional Sorcerer spell from it, you can prepare and cast it the same as you would any of your other sorcerer spells IN ADDITION TO the one free cast you get from the feat. If you learned a Druid spell form MI, you're out of luck because even though you "know" it, you can't prepare Druid spells using the Sorcerer spellcasting feature. You get the 1/Lrest free cast, but that's it. That's the argument behind being able to upcast some spells acquired via MI, but not others.


I'm not sure on the ranger, but the EK's wording consistently words it such that you are knowing and casting wizard spells.

Yeah, that's what I mean. I don't see where the ambiguity is coming from; If you got a new Wizard spell through MI, you could up-cast it as an EK, using a spell slot, because you can prepare wizard spells. If you got a Warlock spell through MI, you can't, because you can't prepare Warlock spells using the EK spellcasting feature. Same with Ranger, they get Ranger spells. I don't see where these two classes are different than any other.

[Segev]

I am away from my PHB at the moment, but I believe the reason that you can upcast Magic Initiate if you also are a member of the relevant class is because the Spellcasting feature for Wizard, Bard, Sorcerer, Druid, Cleric, and Warlock all say, essentially, "You have the ability to cast [this class's] spells that you know using your spell slots." Since Magic Initiate lets you learn the first level spell as "this class's" spell, if you're a member of the class, your spellcasting feature says you can cast it with your spell slots. Upcasting rules apply normally when that happens.

I have to guess, here, again, but if EK and AT 'cheat' by the way the RAW are worded, they probably say "you can cast spells you know."

I find this particularly likely, because both specify that they let you learn spells from the Wizard list, out of particular schools of magic. So if all you do is stick to that class and no other source, the only spells you know are Wizard spells of a short list of schools. But if you pick up Magic Initiate, it doesn't matter what class you're learning it as, because the language just says "spells you know," not "[particular class] spells you know."

Of course, if you were hoping to dip Magic Initiate to get a particular spell castable with your Warlock spell slots, a 3-level fighter or rogue dip isn't any better than a 1-level dip into the class that actually has the spell, so...still not particularly broken.

[Randarkal]

Can anyone explain the specifics of this? I just don't see it. What is the specific wording that allows the loophole for EK and Ranger spellcasting?

The difference is in the spell slot text. Where, for example, sorcerers says "to cast one of these sorcerer spells". On ranger it says "to cast one of these spells". Making any known spell applicable.

I should however note that this would seem to give wizards, bards, and clerics the same freedom. Though since clerics and wizards are further limited by only preparing cleric or wizard spells. This leaves the question of bards.

[Matrix_Walker]

The difference is in the spell slot text. Where, for example, sorcerers says "to cast one of these sorcerer spells". On ranger it says "to cast one of these spells". Making any known spell applicable.

I should however note that this would seem to give wizards, bards, and clerics the same freedom. Though since clerics and wizards are further limited by only preparing cleric or wizard spells. This leaves the question of bards.

I don't see such verbiage in the Bard spellcasting description though...

Of course, I find there is a disconnect ayway, in that stating you can do something does not imply you cannot do something else. The spellcasting descriptions describe what you can do with the spells known from your class. Nowhere does it say they cannot be used elsewhere.

[Randarkal]

I don't see such verbiage in the Bard spellcasting description though...

Of course, I find there is a disconnect ayway, in that stating you can do something does not imply you cannot do something else. The spellcasting descriptions describe what you can do with the spells known from your class. Nowhere does it say they cannot be used elsewhere.

Yeah, based on how multiclass spellcasting works with any slot I don't see why MI couldn't be used with a slot as well. Unless it is a specific rule stated in the multiclass section that slots are interchangeable. Afb so can't confirm any wording.

Other then that I can't say why that was the reasoning. But I know this is the only part of the spellcasting trait that has wording that might explain the reasoning.

[Grear Bylls]

I think for this character, dipping into EK should be just fine, as some fighter levels were already on the menu. If I brought this to AL, how do you think they'd feel about it?

[Matrix_Walker]

I think for this character, dipping into EK should be just fine, as some fighter levels were already on the menu. If I brought this to AL, how do you think they'd feel about it?

IIRC sage advice is used if the GM sees fit. So I would print out the relevant entries and bring them with you, then explain the rationale to the GM and let them decide. This is one of those instances where they give the AL DM a choice.

[Theophilus]

If you use the feat to expand a current spellcaster's known spells, you can use it at a higher level by expending the higher spell slot. However, the once a day feature can only be cast at the lowest level.