What spells do you groan when an enemy has?

[nickl_2000]

You are in a fight and the enemy casts a spell. Which ones make you groan?

Personally, shield and feather fall are probably the the two top ones. After that hold person and dominate

[PhoenixPhyre]

You are in a fight and the enemy casts a spell. Which ones make you groan?

Personally, shield and feather fall are probably the the two top ones. After that hold person and dominate

For my players, anything that totally removes control and makes them do nothing for a turn. Stuns, mind-control, hypnotic pattern, etc. Debuffs are fine, but they find Save or "Die" (lose control) effects boring. One won't let me forget the fight where he spent the whole (4 rounds IIRC) fight out of commission because he rolled crappy on a set of saves vs a mindflayer stun despite having decent modifiers. The rest of the team kept the mindflayer away from him so he didn't get eaten, but more than about a turn of not getting to do anything isn't much fun. Since the DM has many more creatures to control, having a few out-of-play isn't so bad. So I don't use them very much as a DM. I know it's not "optimal" play, but I'm trying to help people have fun here.

[UrielAwakened]

Shield is annoying but almost a necessity for enemy casters.

Magic Missile is probably the worst, especially as a legendary action. It ensures that once you've been reduced to 0 hp, even if a Cleric brings you back up you're probably going down again shortly.

Anything that constitutes action denial, like polymorph, stunning, etc... is annoying as a player to deal with.

[Beechgnome]

Banishment. It's a terrible spell for the DM to throw at the party. Charisma save or you are basically out of the game for 10 rounds...unless someone can make the caster lose concentration.

[nickl_2000]

Banishment. It's a terrible spell for the DM to throw at the party. Charisma save or you are basically out of the game for 10 rounds...unless someone can make the caster lose concentration.

couldn't you dispel banishment too?

[PhoenixPhyre]

couldn't you dispel banishment too?

No, because you have to have access to the person affected, not the caster.

Only way to break it early is for concentration to end.

[xroads]

Suggestion. I've had more complaints from my players about that spell being cast at them than any other.

It doesn't help that my players' primary adversary at the moment are yaun-ti. :smallbiggrin:

[MrStabby]

Top 3 low level are probably banishment, wrathful smite and heat metal. The tier below is darkness, fly and tasha's laughter (cheap breaking of concentration).

[Unoriginal]

No, because you have to have access to the person affected, not the caster.

Only way to break it early is for concentration to end.

"A problem that can only be solved by hitting my enemies hard? Sounds like the opposite of a problem!"

Aplut the Barbarian

[PhoenixPhyre]

"A problem that can only be solved by hitting my enemies hard? Sounds like the opposite of a problem!"

Aplut the Barbarian

Yeah. However, it's a common (cheap) trick for casters like that to have a flood of mooks to keep the brutes off. And being told "no, you can't play the game" for a few turns is obnoxious.

Since I'm not trying to go for extreme challenge or for "optimal play", I just made an unofficial policy that I don't throw hard cc spells/abilities at the PCs except in very special circumstances (and then make it possible to break them from either side, so in this case a way to escape/something to do from the banished person's side).

[strangebloke]

Debuffs.

Reaction-based abilities.

Hard-hitting aoe like fireball.

[Renduaz]

Counterspell.

[Pex]

Healing spells.

The joke reason is bad guys aren't supposed to heal each other. They're the bad guys.

The serious reason is it means the combat will last at least one more round than it should have. The bad guys are expected to lose the fight anyway. Healing prolongs the inevitable, and it's one more round of resources the party has to use perhaps even their own healing because the bad guy who stays up for one more round deals significant damage before finally dropping.

The DM is not wrong to have the bad guys heal each other, but I "groan".

[Sharur]

Less of a groan, and more of a primal scream, but the last time I was a player rather than a DM, we were playing an elemental themed campaign, with two DMs. One DM planned the encounters and ran the story, the second was the rule decision maker and ran combat. The former DM cared about theme and continuity. The second DM cared about tactical play and challenge.

The upshot of this was lots of Fire Mephits, and therefore Heat Meal. Dear Lord, did I hate dealing with Heat Metal.

[DarkKnightJin]

Less of a groan, and more of a primal scream, but the last time I was a player rather than a DM, we were playing an elemental themed campaign, with two DMs. One DM planned the encounters and ran the story, the second was the rule decision maker and ran combat. The former DM cared about theme and continuity. The second DM cared about tactical play and challenge.

The upshot of this was lots of Fire Mephits, and therefore Heat Meal. Dear Lord, did I hate dealing with Heat Metal.

I ran a Gorgon against a Forge Cleric. I, as DM, managed to get around that spell by getting the guy 'stoned'.

More a lucky break on my end, really, but he seemed okay with it.
Though I can see the why if ue wasn't having a lot of fun that particular fight.
Thank the gods that I ran a single Gorgon vs 4 PCs so it wasnt as bad as it could've been.

I'm going to run either a Medusa and some animated statues, or some Basilisks, as another encounter. I did give them a nice, mirror-polish shield after the Gorgon fight.
I want to see them turn the petrifying gaze back on their enemy.

[Snails]

Healing spells.

The joke reason is bad guys aren't supposed to heal each other. They're the bad guys.

The serious reason is it means the combat will last at least one more round than it should have. The bad guys are expected to lose the fight anyway. Healing prolongs the inevitable, and it's one more round of resources the party has to use perhaps even their own healing because the bad guy who stays up for one more round deals significant damage before finally dropping.

The DM is not wrong to have the bad guys heal each other, but I "groan".

LOL. Better spells than drinking healing potions. "Hey, you are drinking our stuff. I am going to kill your deader than dead for that!"

My PC recently got hit by a psionic blast effect of some kind. 5 failed Int saves in a row....

[mephnick]

Banishment. It's a terrible spell for the DM to throw at the party. Charisma save or you are basically out of the game for 10 rounds...unless someone can make the caster lose concentration.

Sounds like an interesting conundrum that can shift the tide and focus of the battle.

But nah, it's a negative effect so modern players will revolt.

[username1]

My players HATE taking control of their characters. Spells like suggestion make them so angry.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Sounds like an interesting conundrum that can shift the tide and focus of the battle.

But nah, it's a negative effect so modern players will revolt.

I don't know about you, but being told "ok, you get to sit this one out. Nothing you can do" is boring. It's why SoD abilities sucked so badly. First and foremost, this is a game. And participating is the whole point. Debuffs are fine, as would be banishing to an area where you can try to do things to affect the battle. This is especially true if it's a climatic boss battle. Everyone's pumped up and you're like..."ok guys, I'll go get some food. Text me when it's over."

On the flip side, it's a neat ability for a player, because the DM controls so many monsters at once that it doesn't affect his fun.

PCs and NPCs are not symmetric. What's fun to use as a player may or may not be fun to be used against a player.

[Kane0]

The most recent caster I threw at my players featured Vampiric Touch. Nothing earth shattering but boy oh boy did he make it to the top of their **** list.

[Beechgnome]

I don't know about you, but being told "ok, you get to sit this one out. Nothing you can do" is boring. It's why SoD abilities sucked so badly. First and foremost, this is a game. And participating is the whole point. Debuffs are fine, as would be banishing to an area where you can try to do things to affect the battle. This is especially true if it's a climatic boss battle. Everyone's pumped up and you're like..."ok guys, I'll go get some food. Text me when it's over."

On the flip side, it's a neat ability for a player, because the DM controls so many monsters at once that it doesn't affect his fun.

PCs and NPCs are not symmetric. What's fun to use as a player may or may not be fun to be used against a player.

Yeah, that was my point. I had toyed with writing a spell guide, but for DMs, because, as you say, they are not symmetric. Spells like nystul's magic aura, augury, divination and leomund's secret chest can be great as plot hooks for DM NPCs, but super-niche for players, while banishment - or sleep at level one or two - can make for a poor gaming experience.

As a player, I'd rather be banished to a demiplane where I have to fight shadows or some monster. At least I'm involved.

[Pex]

I don't know about you, but being told "ok, you get to sit this one out. Nothing you can do" is boring. It's why SoD abilities sucked so badly. First and foremost, this is a game. And participating is the whole point. Debuffs are fine, as would be banishing to an area where you can try to do things to affect the battle. This is especially true if it's a climatic boss battle. Everyone's pumped up and you're like..."ok guys, I'll go get some food. Text me when it's over."

On the flip side, it's a neat ability for a player, because the DM controls so many monsters at once that it doesn't affect his fun.

PCs and NPCs are not symmetric. What's fun to use as a player may or may not be fun to be used against a player.

Yes. It's the other side of the coin of an ability is ok for an NPC or monster but not for a PC such as at will detect thoughts you mentioned in another thread. Same idea with critical failures or extra penalties for losing hit points. Circumstances and rules affect PCs and NPCs differently. A Thing is not necessarily fair and balanced just because it's applied equally between PCs and NPCs.

[Rynjin]

I don't know about you, but being told "ok, you get to sit this one out. Nothing you can do" is boring. It's why SoD abilities sucked so badly. First and foremost, this is a game. And participating is the whole point. Debuffs are fine, as would be banishing to an area where you can try to do things to affect the battle. This is especially true if it's a climatic boss battle. Everyone's pumped up and you're like..."ok guys, I'll go get some food. Text me when it's over."

Save or Dies are actually MORE interesting and interactive than hard Save or Suck spells. If my character is stunned for 12 rounds by a Mindflayer (2d6 rounds, rolled max in a Pathfinder Age of Worms game) I have nothing to do but wait it out (especially since it was PbP...).

If my character DIES, I can at least occupy myself building a new character before the combat is done.

[JoeJ]

I don't know about you, but being told "ok, you get to sit this one out. Nothing you can do" is boring. It's why SoD abilities sucked so badly. First and foremost, this is a game. And participating is the whole point. Debuffs are fine, as would be banishing to an area where you can try to do things to affect the battle. This is especially true if it's a climatic boss battle. Everyone's pumped up and you're like..."ok guys, I'll go get some food. Text me when it's over."

On the flip side, it's a neat ability for a player, because the DM controls so many monsters at once that it doesn't affect his fun.

PCs and NPCs are not symmetric. What's fun to use as a player may or may not be fun to be used against a player.

It would be less of a problem if more DMs were cool with PCs having minions. A player whose character has been taken out could be given control of one or more allied NPCs, so they can at least continue to play.

[Vessyra]

I hate power words (any), polymorph and force cage as a PC. But for some reason (I'm not sure why) I'm perfectly fine with banishment and mind control.

I don't know why I'm cool with banishment and mind control but I hate polymorph and power wire, but that's the way I am.

Shield and counterspell are really annoying, but I do understand that they're necessary for balance (doesn't stop the annoyance, though).

[MrStabby]

I could be getting it wrong but I think my players enjoy a bit of light domination.

It doesn't take them out of the fight at all - just makes them switch teams. Doesn't make them any less effective, just makes them effective against a different target.

[Dr. Cliché]

In my experience:

- Counterspell (Basically lose your turn and one of your best spells)

- Dimension Door or Teleport (most players don't like villains being able to flee boss battles when they're on the back foot).

- Anything that inflicts long-term penalties.

- Anything that takes them out of the battle for multiple turns with no recourse. For example, being subject to Hold Person is annoying, but at least you get a save every turn and the rest of your party can try to break the caster's concentration. However, if you fail a save against Feeblemind and your party doesn't have Greater Restoration or Heal on hand, then you're basically a zombie for the remainder of the battle.

[PhoenixPhyre]

However, if you fail a save against Feeblemind and your party doesn't have Greater Restoration or Heal on hand, then you're basically a zombie for the remainder of the battle.

Or potentially forever, since you don't get to make another save for a month, which is a long time if there's time pressure. Access to Greater Restoration/Heal may not be trivial either.

Death is easy. Death is cheap, even if there's no resurrection. Because you can always make another character. Being forced to play a crippled character is not so fun. One where the entire concept is gone.

This is one reason that the maiming tables that I've seen on crit hit/crit fail cards are so wrong. So you're character was a great swordsman? Nope, he only has one arm now. All those feats and features you built to use a 2H weapon? Wasted. Due to a chance roll. Oh, you're a wizard? Nope, feeblemind. You're a drooling moron now, and if there's any time pressure you're absolutely a pointless waste of space now.

[Dr. Cliché]

Or potentially forever, since you don't get to make another save for a month, which is a long time if there's time pressure. Access to Greater Restoration/Heal may not be trivial either.

Absolutely. Especially if, for example, it's the party's main healer who has been Feebleminded.



Death is easy. Death is cheap, even if there's no resurrection. Because you can always make another character. Being forced to play a crippled character is not so fun. One where the entire concept is gone.

This is one reason that the maiming tables that I've seen on crit hit/crit fail cards are so wrong. So you're character was a great swordsman? Nope, he only has one arm now. All those feats and features you built to use a 2H weapon? Wasted. Due to a chance roll. Oh, you're a wizard? Nope, feeblemind. You're a drooling moron now, and if there's any time pressure you're absolutely a pointless waste of space now.

Yeah, being dead (assuming you can't be resurrected) at least has some finality about it. Maybe your character even died a heroic death. As you say, at least you can move on and make a new character.

It's a lot worse when your character is still technically alive, but can't really do anything. Maybe someone wants to play a swordsman who loses his main hand and goes through a similar arc to Jamie Lannister, but I imagine most people would rather just play a good swordsman. And a Feebleminded mage is not merely deprived of his casting abilities but the entirety of his mental faculties.

[Wisefool]

Darkness.

For a couple reasons. One, my character is the only member without darkvision so it cripples him. And it nullifies my dip into Light Cleric to mitigate that problem. Two, I don't think the group (DM included) have a good grasp of how combat works with magical darkness. I guess I should be grateful the DM is lenient, but I am a play it by the book kind of guy.

[MrStabby]

Darkness.

For a couple reasons. One, my character is the only member without darkvision so it cripples him. And it nullifies my dip into Light Cleric to mitigate that problem. Two, I don't think the group (DM included) have a good grasp of how combat works with magical darkness. I guess I should be grateful the DM is lenient, but I am a play it by the book kind of guy.


Well most darkvision doesn't work with magical darkness so it puts you all on an even footing.

As for how darkness works... It is a bit weird and, much like hiding, many tables, even those that get the rules tend to house rule heavily.

[Wisefool]

Well most darkvision doesn't work with magical darkness so it puts you all on an even footing.

As for how darkness works... It is a bit weird and, much like hiding, many tables, even those that get the rules tend to house rule heavily.

Yeah, the DM understands that about darkvision, but as you say the combat still gets house ruled favorably to keep the game moving. It just doesn't jive with me. So far the spell has only been used twice, once early on by the DM and more recently by our PC tiefling. I will be surprised if it gets used again by either since both battles went terribly for the party, which sorta sucks for the tiefling player.

And I am probably to blame for that too, since I basically checked out both fights. Not planned, but now I am a monk who is afraid of the dark

[MilkmanDanimal]

Just plain old Hold Person has ruined many a combat for players; it's low level so loads of people have access to it, and is the perfect thing to stop the pesky low-Wisdom Barbarian or Fighter from protecting the squishy ones.

[KorvinStarmast]

Chill touch cantrip, if you hit with it, prevents healing, does it not? Or does it only prevent regeneration?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Chill touch cantrip, if you hit with it, prevents healing, does it not? Or does it only prevent regeneration?

"Cannot regain hit points". That covers both healing and regen.

[Theophilus]

Compulsion is particularly nasty when your party is strung along a cliff. It's when your fighter hopes the wizard prepared Feather Fall.

[Lombra]

Darkness.

For a couple reasons. One, my character is the only member without darkvision so it cripples him. And it nullifies my dip into Light Cleric to mitigate that problem. Two, I don't think the group (DM included) have a good grasp of how combat works with magical darkness. I guess I should be grateful the DM is lenient, but I am a play it by the book kind of guy.

Darkvision or not, if you aren't a warlock with devil's sight, you can't see through Darkness.

Oops, missed the second page.

[sithlordnergal]

Heh, Maze is my worst enemy. I usually dump Int, leaving it at an 8 or a 10. Meaning I either can't succeed on the check ever, or I need to roll a nat 20 to escape