Hazing Strike - how many altered mental states are there?

[St Fan]

The Hazing Strike feat's description is as follow:



Victims of your successful stunning attack can't maintain non-magical altered mental states, including combat focus, dreamtouched, frenzy, psionic focus, and rage. Affected creatures can't regain these states for 1 round following the round when they are stunned.


Now, let's get this out of the way: I think this feat is bad. It is quite niche, there are more interesting feats with an effect that piggyback on a stun attack, and if you manage to stun an opponent you should be able either to finish it, or he's too tough for the next round to really matter.

Though you can certainly frustrate greatly a barbarian by ruining his rage...

Now, however, it made me wonder. The feat isn't limited to the states listed, there could be others. What count as a non-magical altered mental state in the game?


I do believe all Martial Adept stances from the Book of Nine Sword can be included. A stance isn't maintained if a character fall unconscious, showing they do require some mental concentration. It would just take a swift action after the two rounds to re-initiate one, of course.

The Defensive Stance from a Dwarven Defender looks like a good fit too.

The Feral Trance of a Fist of the Forest, on the other hand, wouldn't be affected because it's Supernatural, and the feat specifies non-magical states.

Now, that is less evident but I do think the Dodge feat could be concerned. The choice of a target imply a special focus on dodging its blows. The Hazing Strike could dispel this focus and prevent to pick another target for two rounds.


Can you guys think of other candidates?

[Telonius]

"Power Surge" from the Kensai Class might be an acceptable target.

As a kind of defensive maneuver, I'd say it would arguably stop some of the Knight's Challenge abilities. If your friend fails a save against a Daunting or Fighting Challenge, you could Stun him with a nonlethal blow, and that would break the effect. Of course he'll still be Stunned for a few rounds, but it might be situationally better to be knocked out and back from the action for a few rounds than charging off to take on the Knight on his own.

There might be a few nonmagical drugs or poisons that induce various mental states; don't have my copy of BoVD with me at the moment, but that would be a good place to start looking.

[daremetoidareyo]

Morale bonuses.

Nonmagical fear effects. That's pretty crazy. If the bad guy intimidates your buddy into a panic, you can just stun him back to normal.

Prophetic favor.

I think there's a prestige class in boed, that has some prophetic possession thing.

How about possession? Or channeling a celestial.

Lol. Use it on a war hulk (no time to think (ex)) in order to allow them to make skill checks with their skill ranks.

[daremetoidareyo]

Other ideas.
Abjurant champion's martial organist capstone

Wilders psychic enervation? Actually... A lot of wilder class features.

Lol...stunned is a mental state. Dazed probably is too.

So are ex immunities to fear. This feat is getting better now. I mean it removes the stunned condition, but also some other neat stuff.

[Khedrac]

I don't think this should interrupt a marshal 's aura (or a dragon shaman's), but I do think this shoudl interrupt a bard's song (though it's effects usually linger for 5 rounds anyway.

I don't see fear as something one maintains - it's indued - so I don't see this as ending a fear effect.

Hmm, I wonder if it should automatically interrupt spellcasting as it breaks the concentration (also the concentration for maintaining spells)...

[Zaq]

Holy Fury from that one PrC from FC2: Hellbreaker? Hellreaver? The Paladin/Crusader one. Unless the “non-magical” stipulation prevents anything with the (Su) tag.

All the myriad versions of Rage. Possibly including a Wildrunner’s Primal Scream—forget if that one’s (Su). Definitely including a maenad’s pseudo-rage.

Dare already mentioned Ecstasy from Prophet of Erathaol, which I will be shocked if I spelled correctly from memory. That’s likely (Su), though.

I forget, is the dance ability that the CWar Dervish gets something that lasts for multiple rounds or just a big single action?

[Falontani]

You can be stunned non mentally as well, like getting hit in the gut hard enough to knock the wind out of you, but even worse than that. So I doubt it would break most forms of stunning

[daremetoidareyo]

Can you hazing strike someone who has a hostile NPC reaction to you? That way you're only working from indifferent...

I bet you can end auto-hypnosis benefits with this.

Same for lucid dreaming and control shape skills

Edit: This feat is getting better.

You may be able to overcome the mindless trait of oozes...so all you got to do is figure out how to stun them.


Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

So if an ally is under the effect of an EX ability that is a charm, compulsion, phantasm, pattern or morale effect, you can stun them out of it. And if your stun is ruled as an ex mental state, it's kind of a minor ironheart surge.

[St Fan]

I see you guys are already thinking outside the box!

For using on your allies, however, I don't think it would be legit. The RAW argument would be that the wording of the feat is "Victims of you successful stunning attack can't maintain nonmagical altered mental states".

The "can't maintain" part imply the victim is making efforts to willingly maintaining the state. Anything that is not the character's doing, like drugs or psychological effects, wouldn't be dependent of the victim's will.

Not that, as a desperate measure, I can see a DM allowing it. After all, you're using a daily stunning attempt, you're damaging an ally (though that can be nonlethal damage) and he must fall his fortitude save, so it's costly and uncertain, not game-breaking.



"Power Surge" from the Kensai Class might be an acceptable target.

That one is a definitive target, depending on concentration and on focusing spirit. The Kensai could certainly try to reinitiate it after the 2 rounds, but with -5 to the check.




How about possession? Or channeling a celestial.


Those are definitely supernatural, though.




Lol. Use it on a war hulk (no time to think (ex)) in order to allow them to make skill checks with their skill ranks.


That one is not an altered mental state. It's the normal mental state for a War Hulk.




Other ideas.
Abjurant champion's martial organist capstone


That's Martial Arcanist. And I doubt anything permanent can be considered "maintained".




Wilders psychic enervation? Actually... A lot of wilder class features.


I can see the 1-round cooldown period preventing from using Wild Surge. Psychic Enervation, however, is more of a bad side-effect and independent of the Wilder's will. It only last a round anyway.

Now, Surging Euphoria can definitely count.



Hmm, I wonder if it should automatically interrupt spellcasting as it breaks the concentration (also the concentration for maintaining spells)...

Doesn't one round of stunning interrupts any spellcasting/concentration already anyway?


Holy Fury from that one PrC from FC2: Hellbreaker? Hellreaver? The Paladin/Crusader one. Unless the “non-magical” stipulation prevents anything with the (Su) tag.

All the myriad versions of Rage. Possibly including a Wildrunner’s Primal Scream—forget if that one’s (Su). Definitely including a maenad’s pseudo-rage.


Yes, the non-magical clause prevents anything supernatural. Primal Scream is definitively (Su).

Holy Fury is (Ex), however, and is definitely a variant of Rage, so it counts.


I forget, is the dance ability that the CWar Dervish gets something that lasts for multiple rounds or just a big single action?

Dervish Dance is (Ex), and lasts several rounds (depending of the Perform [dance] ranks). Yep, another contender.



I bet you can end auto-hypnosis benefits with this.


Didn't think of Autohypnosis. Maybe, but most effects are too short for it to count, with the exception of ignoring pain.




You may be able to overcome the mindless trait of oozes...so all you got to do is figure out how to stun them.


Again, that's nowhere an "altered mental state". Mindlessness is the natural state for oozes. Let's keep the joke suggestions to a minimum, willya?

[Bronk]

There might be a few nonmagical drugs or poisons that induce various mental states; don't have my copy of BoVD with me at the moment, but that would be a good place to start looking.

I like this... it makes the feat a must have for anyone making a detective type character that wants to question drug addled potential informants. Just slap them back to their senses just long enough to ask a question or two.

[Telonius]

I like this... it makes the feat a must have for anyone making a detective type character that wants to question drug addled potential informants. Just slap them back to their senses just long enough to ask a question or two.

Would "Drunk" be a non-magical mental state? The maneuver could have been developed as a response to hazing. I'm imagining a Monk EMT who decided to save some gold by not having to use anti-poison potions on first-years at the Wizard College.

[St Fan]

"Victims of your successful stunning attack can't maintain non-magical altered mental states".

Once again, the "can't maintain" part imply the victim is making efforts to willingly maintain the state. Anything that is not the character's doing, like drugs or psychological effects, wouldn't be dependent of the victim's will.

At least, that's what I would rule as a DM.

You don't need a feat to slap around drunks and get them back to their senses. Not sure it would work, of course, that may rely on an intimidation check.

EDIT

I should have remembered about the Crusader already. The Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike abilities sure look like they fit this category.



Your supreme dedication and intense focus allow you to temporarily set aside the pain and hindering effects of injuries.


I do think a Hazing Strike would indeed empty the damage pool and prevent a Crusader from delaying damage in it for two rounds. Nasty.

[ben-zayb]

Technically Powers aren't magic, and we do have a couple of them with the [Mind-Affecting] descriptor

[ExLibrisMortis]

What about Diehard? Is that a mental thing?

There's the Combat Form line of feats in PHBII, which involve a "meditative state". It's a fun line of feats, but not strong enough to matter. Good fodder to grant at odd fighter levels, though.

@Ben-zayb: Powers are most definitely magical.

[St Fan]

What about Diehard? Is that a mental thing?


Maybe, maybe not. Moot point, however:, if you're between -1 and -9 hit points after receiving a stunning fist, you won't live long anyway.



There's the Combat Form line of feats in PHBII, which involve a "meditative state". It's a fun line of feats, but not strong enough to matter. Good fodder to grant at odd fighter levels, though.


Combat Focus is specifically one of the examples given in the Hazing Strike description. I think, in fact, it was developed specifically with that chain of feats in mind.

And yes, some of those feats are interesting, especially if you have three of them. The DM ought to be strict, however, especially with Combat Vigor, to not have a character starting a fight against a very easy opponent just for a few rounds of healing. Or hit allies. Or argue that that fly he just swatted counts as a successful attack in combat to enter the focus.

[frogglesmash]

Would it prevent concentration checks?

[St Fan]

Would it prevent concentration checks?

Such a thing would certainly be included in the feat description, as it's too important to let out. So, indubitably, no.

It does disrupt psionic focus, though. And prevent trying to regain it the next round.

[Thurbane]

I have nothing useful to add; but I was unaware of this feat, and find it's name hilarious.

I'm imagining an adventurer smacking an apprentice on the backside with a paddle! :smallbiggrin:

[Telonius]

"Victims of your successful stunning attack can't maintain non-magical altered mental states".

Once again, the "can't maintain" part imply the victim is making efforts to willingly maintain the state.

... that still sounds like "drunk" would qualify. :smallbiggrin:

[frogglesmash]

Such a thing would certainly be included in the feat description, as it's too important to let out. So, indubitably, no.

It does disrupt psionic focus, though. And prevent trying to regain it the next round.

That's a good RAI argument, but RAW is often not what the authors intended.

[Saintheart]

I see you guys are already thinking outside the box!

For using on your allies, however, I don't think it would be legit. The RAW argument would be that the wording of the feat is "Victims of you successful stunning attack can't maintain nonmagical altered mental states".

The "can't maintain" part imply the victim is making efforts to willingly maintaining the state. Anything that is not the character's doing, like drugs or psychological effects, wouldn't be dependent of the victim's will.

The Enchantment school has two separate subschools: Compulsion and Charm.


Charm
A charm spell changes how the subject views you, typically making it see you as a good friend.

Compulsion
A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject’s actions or the effects on the subject, some compulsion spells allow you to determine the subject’s actions when you cast the spell, and others give you ongoing control over the subject.

Compulsion subschool spells certainly overbear the will, i.e. the victim is not "willingly maintaining the state" if they're under this spell's influence, they're forced into their actions by the spell. Therefore this feat would have no effect on them.

Not so with charm effects, because they change how you feel about the subject, they don't alter your mental state as such. The acts you do are willed, but just based on magically-induced false premises. It is no different to a person who acts out of a sincere but entirely wrong belief. Nobody could say the guy who built a steam-powered rocket for the purposes of proving the Earth was flat was doing anything unwilled.

Therefore: if you're under a charm effect, this feat would arguably allow you to slap your buddy out of his false premises and thereby break the spell. The victim is not acting in an unwilled manner, therefore he is willingly maintaining the mental state.

Less controversially: I don't think you could stay asleep if this feat was used on you, no matter how hard you tried. Sleep (as opposed to the spell) is a nonmagical altered mental state, as might be elven trance. Sleep, if voluntary, is necessarily willed, absent cases of extreme exhaustion.

[Thurbane]

How about the Dragon Prophesier feat (MoE): you enter a state of state of "openness and insight into the world around you" called Prophetic Favor.

Although the "non-magical altered mental states" clause of Hazing Strike makes me wonder.

[frogglesmash]

Since it prevents rage and frenzy, and since frenzies are often involuntary, you could argue that it also ends all other states of heightened emotion including happiness, sadness, and fear.

Edit: Would Mind Rape being instantaneous be relevant for the purposes of this feat?

Edit 2: Could it work as a temporary cure for mental illnesses in general?

[St Fan]

Not so with charm effects, because they change how you feel about the subject, they don't alter your mental state as such. The acts you do are willed, but just based on magically-induced false premises. It is no different to a person who acts out of a sincere but entirely wrong belief. Nobody could say the guy who built a steam-powered rocket for the purposes of proving the Earth was flat was doing anything unwilled.

Therefore: if you're under a charm effect, this feat would arguably allow you to slap your buddy out of his false premises and thereby break the spell. The victim is not acting in an unwilled manner, therefore he is willingly maintaining the mental state.

Nice convoluted argument. But I doubt there are any charm effect that are non-magical. Even bardic music abilities are (Su).



Less controversially: I don't think you could stay asleep if this feat was used on you, no matter how hard you tried. Sleep (as opposed to the spell) is a nonmagical altered mental state, as might be elven trance. Sleep, if voluntary, is necessarily willed, absent cases of extreme exhaustion.

The feat's effect last 2 rounds. Not going to give you insomnia.

As for waking you up... well, a punch to the face or the guts in the middle of the night has a tendency to do that already.


... that still sounds like "drunk" would qualify. :smallbiggrin:

I'll admit... I LOLed.


I have nothing useful to add; but I was unaware of this feat, and find it's name hilarious.

I'm imagining an adventurer smacking an apprentice on the backside with a paddle! :smallbiggrin:

Yes, yes, I won't pretend I didn't think of that too. At least it makes a good mnemonic way to remember the feat's name.


How about the Dragon Prophesier feat (MoE): you enter a state of state of "openness and insight into the world around you" called Prophetic Favor.

Although the "non-magical altered mental states" clause of Hazing Strike makes me wonder.

Yup, that's a General feat, so (Ex). That's another whole chain of feats that can be disrupted by Hazing Strike.


Since it prevents rage and frenzy, and since frenzies are often involuntary, you could argue that it also ends all other states of heightened emotion including happiness, sadness, and fear.

Punching people tends to disrupt those emotional states anyway, turning them to anger toward the puncher. So that's a bit moot.

Please note I don't completely close up such out-of-the-ordinary uses of the feat. But I more consider them to be exceptional cases, allowed by the DM for story/flavor/humor purpose, if it helps the narrative. Trying to make a habit of this, however, is going to get vetoed.


I'm starting to think this feat would be a more useful tool for NPCs than PCs. For PCs, you have to luck out on your opponents using such tricks. But if the PCs use some of these altered mental states, the DM throwing a cabal of enemy monks at them using Hazing Strike could seriously ruin their day. Especially if you have a multiclass character using several states at once. Oh, look you've just lost your psionic focus, your combat focus, your martial adept stance, and the target of your Dodge, all in one fell swoop!

More reasons to get immunity to stunning.

[Thurbane]

I'm starting to think this feat would be a more useful tool for NPCs than PCs. For PCs, you have to luck out on your opponents using such tricks. But if the PCs use some of these altered mental states, the DM throwing a cabal of enemy monks at them using Hazing Strike could seriously ruin their day. Especially if you have a multiclass character using several states at once. Oh, look you've just lost your psionic focus, your combat focus, your martial adept stance, and the target of your Dodge, all in one fell swoop!

More reasons to get immunity to stunning.

Yeah, 100%.

As a DM, I'm already thinking of ways to use this feat. No Barbarians or Martial Adepts in my group at the moment, so they're mostly safe...

[animewatcha]

Since monks' things are themed around ki and 'centered' and stuff. Would this feat rob them of most of their abilities?

[Bronk]

Since monks' things are themed around ki and 'centered' and stuff. Would this feat rob them of most of their abilities?

No... monks don't really have any altered mental states the way other classes do... they don't need to have a specific focus or stance to use their class abilities. Everything they have is their normal, natural state, and is mostly related to their physical status, not their mental status.

I could see maybe losing 'still mind' and not having their +2 bonus to some of their saves.

Heh, it would also be funny to slap a monk and having them forget most of their languages by losing their 'Tongue of the Sun and Moon' ability for a round.

[unseenmage]

There ARE some ways to turn spells non-magical. Especially in PF.

Ethergaunts use tech that mimics magic but is non magical. Would be fiat as there aren't many RAW examples though.

In Faerun the Lantanese have gadgets (I think they're called that?) that are non-magical magic items.

And there's a third party Ravenloft book with Devices that are non-magical magic items.

Pathfinder is the real gem though. The whole nation of Numeria is chock full of explicitly non-magical technology that is priced as and functions like magic items. Yay Technology Guide!

So yeah, knocking the non-magical magic mental bluffs offa folks from those specific settings and regions could be fun.

EDIT:
Oh, and for monster superpowers PF's Robot subtype reads like a template so theoretically one could Robot up some Trompe L'oeil or Alter Ego (both templates are like Construct Simulacrums) whatever critter one wanted and viola, non- magical Su abilities. Theoretically.

[St Fan]

Okay, beyond a bit of the usual "joker players wank that no sane DM would accept", we got a bit of nice list here...


Combat Form, feat category - Combat Focus and the chain of feats relying on it
Combat Focus can only be gained once by encounter, so this category is hit hard by Hazing Strike.


Defensive Stance, Dwarven Defender class feature
Ending the Defensive Stance result in the character being winded, and it has a limited number of uses per day. However, it's unclear if, like Rage, it can only be used only once per encounter, and activating is a free action.


Dervish Dance, Dervish class feature
Works mostly like Rage: the dancer ends up fatigued, can be used only once per encounter, and limited number of use per day. Yup, that'll teach you to dance into a fight!


Draconic Prophecy, feat category - Dragon Prophesier and the chain of feats relying on it
The Prophetic Favor transe takes a full-round action to attain and is limited in use per days.


Dodge, feat (arguably)
Can't select a new target until after the 1-round stun and 1-round cooldown.


Dreamtouched, feat category - Dream Scion and the chain of feats relying on it
Wait a round before attempting to regain it, which is a full-round action - but the number of use is limited per day.


Holy Fury, Hellreaver class feature
Similar to Rage, but with no side-effect when ending. Limited to once by encounter, but not in uses per day. However, almost all of the class's abilities are dependent on "Holy Fury points" to use, so Hazing Strike is a serious neutering in this case.


Psionic Focus (and everything dependent on it)
Wait a round before attempting to regain it, which is a concentration check as a full-round action (save for some quick-focus tricks).


Power Surge, Kensai class feature
Can be reactivated after the 1-round stun and 1-round cooldown, but it's a Concentration check as a move action, and each new attempt is at -5.


Rage/Frenzy, Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker (and plenty others) class features
Since a rage can generally only be used once per encounter, and ending it results in being fatigued, this is certainly the category hit the hardest by Hazing Strike. Plus, limited number of uses per day... yup, that hurts.


Stances (all of them), Martial Adepts class features
Can't regain a stance until 2 rounds (then it's a swift action).


Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike, Crusader class features
Those two are closely linked and work together. A Hazing Strike would likely empty the damage pool immediately, thus preventing Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike for the round following the stun.


Surging Euphoria, Wilder class feature.
Can be regained with another Wild Surge after the cooldown time. It does not prevent using Wild Surge itself, however, because Wild Surge is (Su).


Things like Ecstasy (Prophet of Erathaoi), Feral Trance (Fist of the Forest) or Primal Sctream (Wildrunner), on the other hand, are (Su) and not concerned.

The interesting point is that (Ex) abilities are generally considered safer than (Su), as the latter go away in an antimagic shell or dead magic zone. With Hazing Strike, this ends up subverted.

[animewatcha]

What about 3.0 psionic offensive and defensive modes?