playing a bard: the basics

[King of Nowhere]

I just have no flippin idea how to play a bard. by what I read on the manual, you can use your bardic music for some minor bonuses, but that precludes casting spells. or you could cast spells, but you'd be better off as a wizard or sorceror anyway. You are supposed to be a passable fighter, but a cleric hits harder than you. You have good skills, but I'm looking specifically at combat here.

So far, I've tested the party against a large number of enemy npcs, but none of them had been a bard. I would like to expand my resources, especially since I was thinking of throwing a large number of lower level enemies (say, 15-20 level 11 npcs against a level 15 party of 6) and it would make a lot of sense to have a bard or two in there as support. Especially because all the party is sporting AC above 40, those mid level "mooks" need buffs to have a realistic chance to hit.

So, can you give me tips on how to play a supporting bard? Play, not build. Build is secondary here, altoough some useful resources would not go amiss.

[Nifft]

Perform skills fall into four broad categories:

1 - Make music with your mouth (oratory, singing). This category of Perform skill prevents spellcasting, but allows weapon use.

2 - Make music with your hands (guitar, drums, piano). This category of Perform skill prevents weapon use, but allows spellcasting.

3 - Make music with both your mouth and your hands (saxophone, flute, bagpipes). This category of Perform skill prevents spellcasting and weapon use, and is not recommended.

4 - Do something other than make music (acting, dance). This category of Perform skill can't be used with Bardic Music at all.


If you want to spell while you inspire, pick Perform skills from category 2.

[lylsyly]

Build Advice: here (http://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook/)

A Bard may not be a great damage dealer but with the right build can be somewhat reasonable.
A Bard into Sublime Chord can come close to being comparable to a sorcerer.

And don't forget that those buffs from Bardic Music apply to The Whole Party with some restrictions on distance, ect. You may not buff one NPC very well, but when you add up the damage ect. for the whole group it can add up.

[Telonius]

I just have no flippin idea how to play a bard. by what I read on the manual, you can use your bardic music for some minor bonuses, but that precludes casting spells. or you could cast spells, but you'd be better off as a wizard or sorceror anyway. You are supposed to be a passable fighter, but a cleric hits harder than you. You have good skills, but I'm looking specifically at combat here.

So far, I've tested the party against a large number of enemy npcs, but none of them had been a bard. I would like to expand my resources, especially since I was thinking of throwing a large number of lower level enemies (say, 15-20 level 11 npcs against a level 15 party of 6) and it would make a lot of sense to have a bard or two in there as support. Especially because all the party is sporting AC above 40, those mid level "mooks" need buffs to have a realistic chance to hit.

So, can you give me tips on how to play a supporting bard? Play, not build. Build is secondary here, altoough some useful resources would not go amiss.

Bards have a reputation as a jack-of-all-trades, master of none. That's somewhat deserved, especially if you're limited to the core rulebooks. As always, the more sources you have available, the stronger you'll be. You're right that the basic thing of a Bard is being a "force multiplier." The more people one his team, the more important he becomes; every additional ally that can hear him means he's contributing more to how much damage his side does overall.

Again, depending on what sources you have available you can build a Bard to be a melee combatant (Snowflake Wardance), a caster (Sublime Chord), focus on new musics (Virtuoso), or go all-in on Inspire Courage (Dragonfire Inspiration/Song of the Heart/Words of Creation). If you're going to pick one of those, you really need to figure out which way you're going to go; otherwise the build starts getting all over the place really quickly. You can dabble a bit in something outside your main thing, but you're feat-starved and can't afford much wiggle room.

One area that Bards really shine, regardless of how you build them, is as a secondary skill-monkey. In social encounters, Bards are typically high-charisma, thanks to their casting stat, and have all of the important social skills on their class list. You have 6+Int skill points per level, second only to the Rogue; plus a whole bunch of random skills that intersects with a lot of the other classes. Again, you are a force multiplier. Be the Face so the Rogue doesn't have to be. Fill in whatever Knowledge skills your Wizard and Cleric don't have (Nature or Dungeoneering are usually good ones). Take enough ranks in UMD so you can use whatever wands are available, and the heavier casters can focus on the larger threats.

[Elkad]

You stand behind the Barbarian and use Perform:Cheerleading (https://youtu.be/Gy78sP7N-tM?t=1m48s) to give him bonuses.

/end_blue

[King of Nowhere]

Perform skills fall into four broad categories:

2 - Make music with your hands (guitar, drums, piano). This category of Perform skill prevents weapon use, but allows spellcasting.



From the SRD

Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word.

So no, bards can't cast while using music, period. although music lasts 5 rounds after you stop singing, so you can sing the first round and cast spells the next 4 rounds

[Fliggl]

From the SRD


So no, bards can't cast while using music, period. although music lasts 5 rounds after you stop singing, so you can sing the first round and cast spells the next 4 rounds

There's a feat for that. There's always a feat...

Melodic Casting from Complete Mage, p. 44. Besides some other goddies like using perform instead of concentration, it allows you to cast while using bardic music abilities.

[Deadline]

There's a feat for that. There's always a feat...

Melodic Casting from Complete Mage, p. 44. Besides some other goddies like using perform instead of concentration, it allows you to cast while using bardic music abilities.

^^ This. Melodic Casting is a fantastic feat. For that matter, so is Versatile Spellcaster. Both are pretty great on a bard.

[Eldariel]

You initiate Inspire and end it next round to cast spells. It still lasts for 5 rounds, plenty for most fights; you only maintain Inspire when you believe that's sufficient (and use other songs sparingly if at all; Fascinate and Inspire Greatness are obviously great as are the alternative options). And yeah, you're a worse fighter than Cleric but so is everything else other than Druids or Wizards; that's okay. You have Inspire and buffs and medium BAB so you should be fine as an archer though don't get close unless you're a melee Bard (and without auxiliary sources you can't be that). Ignore the Whip proficiency, that thing is too much investment for too little gain. It's just there to make you feel more Indiana Jonesey.

And yeah, Bards get a lot better with other sources than the core books. Song of the Heart [Eberron Campaign Settings], Inspirational Boost [Spell Compendium], Badge of Valor [Magic Item Compendium], Words of Creation make your Inspire great (bonus points for masterwork instruments from Arms & Equipment Guide; Alphorn gives Inspire a range of [B]miles for example). All the alternative bardic music from Dungeonscape, Complete Champion, etc. is nice and Spell Compendium, Races of Stone and company contain some really key Bard spells (Inspiration, Harmonize, etc.). And Complete Arcane adds Sublime Chord and Complete Adventurer Virtuoso, which combined make Bard into a Sorcerer that still gets all the Bard goodies. Unsurprisingly that option is ridiculously good; you don't even miss out on much of note by PRCing out of Bard at 9-10.

[Nifft]

So no, bards can't cast while using music, period.

Huh, you're right.

I wonder if that's a change from 3.0e, or if I've just been using someone's house-rules for Bards all this time.

[RaiKirah]

You might also want to consider the Doomspeak feat from Champions of Ruin. Giving an opponent -10 to attack roles, skill checks, saves, and ability checks for a round is not too shabby, particularly in conjunction with various Save-or-Die or Save-or-Suck spells/effects.

Of course if you want a combat Bard, then Song of the White Raven, Snowflake Wardance, Song of the Heart, and Dragonfire Inspiration is the way to go. You can go all in on that with Warblade5/Warrior Skald1/Warblade+14 to have a full BAB Bardblade with full Initiator Level and not worry about casting. If you throw in two levels of Seeker of the Song or some War Chanter you can initiate and maintain Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration in the same round.

[Malroth]

Basicly Bards if built well can perform any single role any other class does almost as well as the specialist class does. Sublime chords fill the arcane niche almost exactly as well as a sorcorer does. Tialafran song/metamagic song builds can do horrifying things as a persistomancer. Song of the white raven/Snowflake wardance/knowledge devotion builds are solid frontline melee combatants. Inspire courage optimized builds can get 1st lv commoners to hit harder than 10th lv fighters. In addition to this ALL bards are also capable of being a stealth/face/mind control guy just like a beguiler or social rogue at the same time.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Here's the thing about a bard. Pick one of the things it can do; spells, fighting, music, skills, etc; and go for it. You'll be able to do that thing really well in a way unique to the bard but your other abilities will remain fairly mediocre.

The thing unique to a bard, that you'd probably want to go with, is inspire courage optimization. With the right options you can be giving all of your allies +8 to-hit and 8d6 extra damage of one or another energy type on every attack. Even fairly minor minions can be a serious threat as a result.

[King of Nowhere]

Here's the thing about a bard. Pick one of the things it can do; spells, fighting, music, skills, etc; and go for it. You'll be able to do that thing really well in a way unique to the bard but your other abilities will remain fairly mediocre.

The thing unique to a bard, that you'd probably want to go with, is inspire courage optimization. With the right options you can be giving all of your allies +8 to-hit and 8d6 extra damage of one or another energy type on every attack. Even fairly minor minions can be a serious threat as a result.

How do I get the energy damage? I looked at the linked guide and i found how to get +6 from inspire courage at level 11, but I saw nothing about energy damage.

I think I'll stick with buff bard because I'll make npc bards, so if I want an enemy npc melee type I'll just pick fighter or barbarian, not some weird bard combination that does almost the same

[Nifft]

How do I get the energy damage?

Dragonfire Inspiration feat, from Dragon Magic.

[Eldariel]

Dragonfire Inspiration feat, from Dragon Magic.

Requires Dragonblood subtype, which many of the races in the book as well as Kobolds and few others have though. Makes them much better and it stacks with normal Inspire Courage so you can get +8 to hit and +8 + 8d6 (energy) damage, probably.

[King of Nowhere]

well, i can't justify every bard npc as having dragon blood. And i ddon't want all the npc weaklings to suddenly deal 8d6 extra damage. That would be unfair to the players, which are at a lower optimization level.
Any way to deal maybe 1d6 or 2d6 extra damage (short of refluffing and rewirking)? that would be meaningful without being too harsh.

[Eldariel]

well, i can't justify every bard npc as having dragon blood. And i ddon't want all the npc weaklings to suddenly deal 8d6 extra damage. That would be unfair to the players, which are at a lower optimization level.
Any way to deal maybe 1d6 or 2d6 extra damage (short of refluffing and rewirking)? that would be meaningful without being too harsh.

Eh, Inspire Courage for +6 amounts to an average +2d6 so that should be plenty. +8 would be +3d6. You can always use the "Sonic Weapon"-spell to give a weapon +1d6 Sonic with perhaps a lesser Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell and the appropriate range adjustments to chain Sonic Weapon to caster level minions for +1d6 Sonic each.

[Nifft]

Eh, Inspire Courage for +6 amounts to an average +2d6 so that should be plenty. +8 would be +3d6. You can always use the "Sonic Weapon"-spell to give a weapon +1d6 Sonic with perhaps a lesser Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell and the appropriate range adjustments to chain Sonic Weapon to caster level minions for +1d6 Sonic each.

The expected value of 1d6 is 3.5, so 2d6 => 7, and 3d6 => 10.5

[Eldariel]

The expected value of 1d6 is 3.5, so 2d6 => 7, and 3d6 => 10.5

Fair, I was going more with the "in the same ballpark", but strictly speaking you're of course correct.

[Troacctid]

From the SRD


So no, bards can't cast while using music, period. although music lasts 5 rounds after you stop singing, so you can sing the first round and cast spells the next 4 rounds
Complete Adventurer has supplementary rules that clarify that certain instruments do not preclude casting spells.

By the way, Complete Adventurer also details various buffs to your bardic music that you can get from masterwork instruments. I recommend checking it out and getting a masterwork instrument to take advantage.

[Ruethgar]

Also note that some instruments were given special, non-magical abilities. A Lutebow with a neck blade and a bow blade can hold three wand chambers and as a lute gives you +1 effective level of Bardic Music and allows you to maintain 2 bardic musics simultaneously. If it is deemed a shortbow for the purpose of Elvencraft, that’s another wand chamber.

[RaiKirah]

The +8/+8d6 is from Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration at the same time with a bonus of +8. This can be achieved through various buffs to the Inspire Courage modifier (Inspirational Boost=+1, Badge of Valor=+1, Song of the Heart=+1, Masterwork Horn=+1, Words of Creation doubles (though whether it doubles the base value or the buffed value is DM dependent), and of course Bard Levels improve the modifier). Choose some combination to meet the amount of buffing you want your NPC to have. Note also that Dragonfire Inspiration is default fire damage, though that can be changed with more resources.

[liquidformat]

^^ This. Melodic Casting is a fantastic feat. For that matter, so is Versatile Spellcaster. Both are pretty great on a bard.

Seriously though Melodic Casting is natural spell for bard, it changes you from being able to fill one of your three possible roles to all three at the same time. I don't care what role you are focusing on you will rarely be better without it.

Another great feat to look at is Dreadful wrath, if you are looking at having a group of 15-20 mooks anyways you might as well make yourself a fear-mongering bard. Paragon 1-3/bard 2-4/dread witch 5/sublime chord 1 or nightmare spinner 1. Take inspire awe( ACF from DrM 13) and intimidate as your adaptive skill, dreadful wrath at level 1, Melodic Casting at level 3, doomspeak at level 6, imperious command at 9 and never outnumbered; the rest of your feats should be focused on casting or increasing your DCs also be sure to pump perform and intimidate. The idea is to be a master debuffer through fear, you can literally shut down battles in one or two rounds if you are mean to your pcs, even if you are being relatively nice you can make things quite nasty for them. Have a second bard focusing purely on force multipliers and you can make thing even worse.