Wizard Royale Rumble

[CTurbo]

Each Wizard school offers their best level 20 character to fight to the death. All vs All

Who wins and why?

[LudicSavant]

Each Wizard school offers their best level 20 character to fight to the death. All vs All

Who wins and why?

I'm reminded of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmkCS5eA4f8

Though obviously the situation is very different, the lesson of the puzzle is still relevant.

[JackPhoenix]

Insuficient data.

Equipment, stats, allowed preparation, the choice of battlefield... all of that matters, propably more than the choice of subclass.

[Sigreid]

The one that can most successfully avoid combat until the others chew each other up.

[Kane0]

I depends so much on tactics, rolls, etc. there is an incredible amount of variation.
Without any thought i'd pick an abjurer, they get magic resistance, great counterspelling and THPs.

[Unoriginal]

The one who manages to land two good hits on their opponents before the others.

Like always in PvP.

[Alderic78]

They would probably meet for tea while their Simulacri fight to the "death" over and over until they figure out who's the best most of the time.

But if you really want to have them fight in person... the winner is probably the next warlord, demon lord or whatever that wants to conquer the place where all those wizards come from after all but one of them is dead.

[CTurbo]

Lol fun answers already

Point buy stats with the 5 ASI/feats they get

Wide open field with no cover

All in a big circle.



I have to go with Abjurer in this battle. Spell resistance, thp, and the Shield spell at will every round also fueling the thp

[Alderic78]

I wouldn't even know hown to begin this fight.

They're not surprised (I assume) so they all roll initiative. Someone goes first (the Diviner ?) and has to face about 10 counterspell... but would anyone actually cast that counterspell ? Against an unknown spell that could be a cantrip and at the same time telling everyone else that you're out of counterspells for the rest of the round ?

Now immagine going 2-3 round like that. Or more if the wizards start working on defensive spells first and/or alter the battlefield or use summons...

[Unoriginal]

Obviously the only way to know for sure is to have it played out with actual PCs and players.

[JackPhoenix]

Obviously the only way to know for sure is to have it played out with actual PCs and players.

Multiple times, so you know it's not just a lucky fluke.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I like the Simulacrum idea, but I think if it's just the wizards with the same access to resources, magical items, etc. then I'd go with Lore, Illusion, or Abjurer. They'd all play it very differently, but those tactics are the ones I think stand the best chance.

[Unoriginal]

Multiple times, so you know it's not just a lucky fluke.

Fair enough.

Anyone interested in testing that out? I can DM it.

[UrielAwakened]

The Abjurer wins the most often. Probably as often as all of the other wizards combined.

Ward gives slightly more durability, coupled with resistance to all spell damage, he's the best at counterspelling and dispelling, and he has advantage on all of his saving throws. You couldn't design a better caster killer if you tried.

Conjurer gets one free Misty Step, and can make use of summons to some extent. Probably the 2nd best Wizard in the duel but it's by a huge margin.

Diviner has some insurance and auto-fails under his belt with Portent but not enough to take out all of the Wizards. The battle isn't long enough for Expert Divination to matter all of that much, Third Eye is just a few extra prep slots freed up but hardly a dealbreaker.

Enchanter can make minor use of Split Enchantment but it's better at buffs than disables. The rest of his abilities do very little to help.

Evoker has nothing but slightly increased damage. Scult spell is pointless and cantrips will never get used. Overchannel can be used once and any time after that and it's actively making you lose faster instead.

Illusionist is interesting but since all Wizards have good Int, it's probably the worst opponents for it. Illusory Reality is the best ability here but it's still not any better than casting actual walls of stone, which every other Wizard can do anyway.

Necromancer is pretty terrible when everybody else has Fireball and Lightning Bolt, even if you let the Necromancer show up with an army in tow. Grim Harvest might help with durability slightly but probably not. Maybe you can steal somebody else's undead with Command Undead but I doubt a room full of 20 Int Wizards that know a Necromancer is showing up with bring Undead with them.

Transmuter probably comes with resistance to fire or Con proficiency which helps slightly. Shapechanger is useless and Master Transmuter could give the Transmuter a second set of hit points, but otherwise there's nothing great here either.

TL;DR: Abjurer 5/10 or 6/10, Conjurer maybe 1/10, Transmuter rmaybe 1/10, Evoker maybe 1/10, everyone else shares the last 1/10.

[Alderic78]

Ofc in the end the Lawful Evil master of the school of Conjuration, who has more than a hint of Devil blood in his veins will win...

By sending the most horribly broken wizard multiclass summoned from a place that still follows the old rules...

More seriously... the OP said lvl 20 character, not wizard :p

[UrielAwakened]

Ofc in the end the Lawful Evil master of the school of Conjuration, who has more than a hint of Devil blood in his veins will win...

By sending the most horribly broken wizard multiclass summoned from a place that still follows the old rules...

More seriously... the OP said lvl 20 character, not wizard :p

> Wizard Royale Rumble

> Each Wizard school offers...

[Unoriginal]

If one is to assume no preparation, I would put my money on the War Wizard.

[UrielAwakened]

Ignoring that this is probably intended to only be the 8 Wizard schools, and not stuff like War Magic, the War Wizard is terrible here.

It probably goes first, but that's it. Arcane Deflection is worse than something like Shield or Counterspell, and removes your ability to cast your 6th-9th level spells next turn. It deals slightly more damage but not enough to matter. Durable Magic helps slightly as well but is entirely dependent on not getting dispelled.

War Magic is probably slightly better than Illusionist and that's it.

[Ganymede]

The Bard Colleges win, because they still have all of their greatest spellcasters alive.

[Segev]

Illusory Reality is the best ability here but it's still not any better than casting actual walls of stone, which every other Wizard can do anyway.

Remember that at 18th level, the Illusionist can cast silent image at will, and solidify things from that. No resource other than time spent.

That said, the illusionist is actually at a huge disadvantage here unless we assume he can bring in pre-cast spells. Most of his best unique abilities take time to bring to bear, and he gets his major mileage out of Malleable Illusions, which allows him to use pre-cast illusions over and over in highly effective ways. But since coming in with that level of prep makes this ridiculously hard to adjudicate, we have to assume he does not. So he is really down most of his power.

[ImproperJustice]

Abjurer wins through sheer grit and spell survivability.

Conjurer wins by teleporting out of there and waiting for everyone to blow themselves to smitherenes.

Diviner wins by seeing the battle unfold in advance and makes sure he is elsewhere. It’s the only way, Tony.

Enchanter wins by convincing the others the battle already happened and she was declared winner.

Evoker wins by calling down enough fire and death from the heavens that everyone else dies in the nuclear winter that follows.

Illusionist wins by making sure his after image soaks all the death, and comes down from a nearby mountain top he was hiding at to claim the trophy.

Necromancer wins by animating herself and the other dead wizards to battle for her.

Transmuter wins by having his hidden tiny servant use his philosopher’s stone to bring him back to life after the battle and claim victory.

War Wizard wins by acting first and casting meteor swarm on themselves and everyone else around, using deflection to make the save and hopefully survive (or whatever alpha strike people can imagine).

[Sigreid]

The winner is the one with invisibility as one of their spell mastery spells and stays out of the line of fire until the others are all weak or dead.

[JackPhoenix]

Remember that at 18th level, the Illusionist can cast silent image at will, and solidify things from that. No resource other than time spent.

That said, the illusionist is actually at a huge disadvantage here unless we assume he can bring in pre-cast spells. Most of his best unique abilities take time to bring to bear, and he gets his major mileage out of Malleable Illusions, which allows him to use pre-cast illusions over and over in highly effective ways. But since coming in with that level of prep makes this ridiculously hard to adjudicate, we have to assume he does not. So he is really down most of his power.

Wish to skip the casting time on Mirage Arcane. Mirage Arcane to turn the featureless plain into a lake of lava. Illusory Reality can't cause damage, but it doesn't need to, Mirage Arcana is real enough even without it. He may want to use Illusory Reality to make heat-proof bunker for himself through Silent Image first, though.

Or a lake of water, then use Malleable Illusion to cover it with ice, and watch the others drown while they can't use verbal components underwater.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Wish to skip the casting time on Mirage Arcane. Mirage Arcane to turn the featureless plain into a lake of lava. Illusory Reality can't cause damage, but it doesn't need to, Mirage Arcana is real enough even without it. He may want to use Illusory Reality to make heat-proof bunker for himself through Silent Image first, though.

Yeah, Illusionist should easily be top two or three. They're only limited by their creativity with things like illusory reality. Not spell descriptions, not extra hit points, just raw, magical creativity. They just need to use low level spells to survive and avoid combat until others have blown most of their spell slots.

[Segev]

Hm. Wish! Right. That would do it.

A worthy note: though Investigation can let the other wizards see through the illusion produced by mirage arcane, the spell calls out explicitly that its tangible effects remain. So that drowning pool you've put everybody in is still water to the touch (and breath). Even if they know it's illusory.

[vexedart]

Bladesinger and anti-magic field maybe?

[Ganymede]

Hm. Wish! Right. That would do it.

A worthy note: though Investigation can let the other wizards see through the illusion produced by mirage arcane, the spell calls out explicitly that its tangible effects remain. So that drowning pool you've put everybody in is still water to the touch (and breath). Even if they know it's illusory.

The spell can make an area feel like water, but people don't drown because their lungs feel water. They drown because oxygen does not get to their brain, which the spell does not impact.

Similarly with lava. You can make something feel hot, but you don't get burned because something feels hot. You get burned because something denatures your skin, which the spell does not do.

[TheUser]

Bladesinger.

Activate AMF and Bladesong

You just shoot/stab them all to death with a hand crossbow or rapier and watch as they helplessly try to respond to you.

(Just make sure you kill that necromancer early in the rumble)

[UrielAwakened]

Bladesinger.

Activate AMF and Bladesong

You just shoot/stab them all to death with a hand crossbow or rapier and watch as they helplessly try to respond to you.

(Just make sure you kill that necromancer early in the rumble)

There will be a ton of wizards ready and willing to counterspell your AMF when you cast it.

[JackPhoenix]

The spell can make an area feel like water, but people don't drown because their lungs feel water. They drown because oxygen does not get to their brain, which the spell does not impact.

Similarly with lava. You can make something feel hot, but you don't get burned because something feels hot. You get burned because something denatures your skin, which the spell does not do.

Mirage Arcane actually changes the terrain, despite being an illusion. You can drown someone in illusionary water. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/06/03/if-i-used-mirage-arcane-to-transform-a-lake-of-water-into-a-lake-of-lava/) Or drag atop an illusionary tower and push him down to kill himself on illusionary rocks. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/12/could-i-stand-at-the-top-of-an-illusory-tower/)


There will be a ton of wizards ready and willing to counterspell your AMF when you cast it.

Assuming you're doing it in the Counterspell's reach. You can just move away from the other wizards. Also assuming that they'll alll use their reaction for Counterspell and risk not having it awailable when the next wizard's spell come.

[Ganymede]

Mirage Arcane actually changes the terrain, despite being an illusion. You can drown someone in illusionary water. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/06/03/if-i-used-mirage-arcane-to-transform-a-lake-of-water-into-a-lake-of-lava/) Or drag atop an illusionary tower and push him down to kill himself on illusionary rocks. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/12/could-i-stand-at-the-top-of-an-illusory-tower/)

Ok then, the winner is whoever gets initiative and wishes for a mile-wide cube of lava first.

[LudicSavant]

If a mile-wide cube of lava just deals "submerged in lava" damage, then it is unlikely to kill even a single wizard, assuming a baseline level of Wizard intelligence. 18d10 damage just isn't enough... especially when it can be halved by reactions. Or heck, even just the odd half-orc wizard would survive being one-shotted. And then they can just leave the area (I don't think any rules have been mentioned which would prevent that).

The actual danger would be weight and pressure, assuming that you could actually make the mile-wide cube of lava just fall on them. In that case you could maybe argue that they don't have room to move and use somatic components, or take some extreme amount of damage from the weight.

[JackPhoenix]

If a mile-wide cube of lava just deals "submerged in lava" damage, then it is unlikely to kill even a single wizard, assuming a baseline level of Wizard intelligence. 18d10 damage just isn't enough... especially when it can be halved by reactions or negated by contingencies. Or heck, even just the odd half-orc wizard would survive being one-shotted. And then they can just leave the area (I don't think any rules have been mentioned which would prevent that).

The actual danger would be weight and pressure, assuming that you could actually make the mile-wide cube of lava just fall on them. In that case you could maybe argue that they don't have room to move and use somatic components. But the guys with Contingencies and such would still just nope out.

It won't necessarily kill them instantly, but not everyone will have the means to avoid it ready. Fly to avoid it? They can't concentrate on anything else. Antimagic Field? Sure, it protects them, but they can't cast spells either. Teleport away? I'm pretty sure that could count as losing the battle, and favorite Misty Step doesn't have enough range to get them clear. Absorb Elements? Just delaying the inevitable. Dispel Magic? May work, but but it'll take 9th level slot to have guarantee of success. Even if it won't win the battle straight away, it makes life much more difficult for everyone else, and greatly improves the chance for victory.

[LudicSavant]

It won't necessarily kill them instantly, but not everyone will have the means to avoid it ready. Fly to avoid it? They can't concentrate on anything else. Antimagic Field? Sure, it protects them, but they can't cast spells either. Teleport away? I'm pretty sure that could count as losing the battle, and favorite Misty Step doesn't have enough range to get them clear. Absorb Elements? Just delaying the inevitable. Dispel Magic? May work, but but it'll take 9th level slot to have guarantee of success. Even if it won't win the battle straight away, it makes life much more difficult for everyone else, and greatly improves the chance for victory.

That's not how battle royales work. Best case, you use the Noether 9000 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmkCS5eA4f8) Wish and make life difficult for someone else who uses a spell slot (perhaps even a 9th level one) to dispel your thing. But then then there are a bunch of other people, still with turns to take.

Incidentally, no mention was made of anti-teleport rules or anything of the sort. If Teleport is on the table then it turns into a Tippyverse game of hide and seek and planes might fall before the Wizards do.

Turns out high level wizards are actually pretty strong. Who knew?

[Lawful Good]

I'd bet abjurer. If they shapechange into an ancient dragon their first turn (<60 feet away from everyone else), and then turn into their humanoid form the next round, they can use their added onion-style durability combined with their abjurer abilities to brute force everyone.


The tricky part would be holding concentration (they'd probably have warcaster+con proficiency) and not getting targeted the round you turn into a dragon.

[LudicSavant]

Incidentally, Mirage Arcane doesn't even let you make a lava cube. While you can make the whole place into a lake of lava, you can't change the "general shape" of the terrain.

[Ganymede]

Incidentally, Mirage Arcane doesn't even let you make a lava cube. While you can make the whole place into a lake of lava, you can't change the "general shape" of the terrain.

Unless the "cube of lava" is the depths of a gigantic Fire Giant slag vat. Then you're building a structure as opposed to changing the general shape of the terrain.

[CTurbo]

I think this is an extremely interesting battle. It's safe to assume that all of them would be sitting at a 20 Int which kinda cancels it out.

Yes nearly every spell will be Counter Spelled if possible, but they each only get the single reaction so the first Wizard to use their reaction, is going to be a sitting duck for the remainder of the round. The other wizards are smart enough to know that and would likely nova that one guy to death.

If I were them, I would want the Abjur out of the way first.

Any of them could almost be taken out with more cantrips if they focused fire on him.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Incidentally, no mention was made of anti-teleport rules or anything of the sort. If Teleport is on the table then it turns into a Tippyverse game of hide and seek and planes might fall before the Wizards do.

Turns out high level wizards are actually pretty strong. Who knew?

Now this is someone using their creativity. You might stand a chance in this hypothetical Wizard's duel.


I think this is an extremely interesting battle. It's safe to assume that all of them would be sitting at a 20 Int which kinda cancels it out.

Yes nearly every spell will be Counter Spelled if possible, but they each only get the single reaction so the first Wizard to use their reaction, is going to be a sitting duck for the remainder of the round. The other wizards are smart enough to know that and would likely nova that one guy to death.

If I were them, I would want the Abjur out of the way first.

Any of them could almost be taken out with more cantrips if they focused fire on him.

Yet another strategic mind. Both of you would make fine challengers. Anyone who thinks this is primarily about the magic and not primarily about the intangible creativity/IQ of the individual is mistaken. Well done you two!

[CantigThimble]

Fair enough.

Anyone interested in testing that out? I can DM it.

I'd be down for this.

Rulings question though, when your opponent casts a spell, would you know what spell it is before you decide to cast counterspell or not? Can you tell what level slot is being used before deciding?

[Arathryth]

I'd be down for this.

Rulings question though, when your opponent casts a spell, would you know what spell it is before you decide to cast counterspell or not? Can you tell what level slot is being used before deciding?

Sure, depending on what you roll on your Arcana check.

[Sorlock Master]

The one that can most successfully avoid combat until the others chew each other up.

Abjuration because the above...

Or whoever wins initiative and casts wish first.

[Clodix367]

I have to go with Abjurer in this battle. Spell resistance, thp, and the Shield spell at will every round also fueling the thp

Completely agreed

[Unoriginal]

I'd be down for this.

Rulings question though, when your opponent casts a spell, would you know what spell it is before you decide to cast counterspell or not?

Nope. The rules are quite clear on how identifying a spell uses your Reaction.



Can you tell what level slot is being used before deciding?

Nope either.

[LudicSavant]

whoever wins initiative and casts wish first.

What are you even Wishing for?

[CantigThimble]

Nope. The rules are quite clear on how identifying a spell uses your Reaction.



Nope either.

Okay then. I'm willing to represent the honorable school of Conjuration. Any challengers?

[Segev]

What are you even Wishing for?

Victory, of course!

[LudicSavant]

Victory, of course!

A lifetime achievement award for "worst worded Wish ever" pops out of the air, declaring that you won the contest for most poorly worded Wish in the history of 20th level Wizards.

The other wizards proceed to kill you, of course, but they can't take away your victory.

[Ganymede]

The wizard could always wish to be free of the strange white room he or she is trapped in.

[Lord8Ball]

My strategy for a level 20 necromancer would be to take the mage slayer and warcaster feats and prodigy in athletics. From there I'd use a headband of intellect on one of my minions, give it sending stones and then teach everyone code for quick and easy communication between them all. Then I'd arm them with as many wands of magic missile as I could and get multiple squads on chariots to spread out while being commanded in the back line by an intelligent zombie. From there I'd try to scry the enemy wizard cast greater invisibility(with a glyph of warding) and then teleport to him/her when my allies are nearby, but outside spellcasting range. A dispel magic will be prepared just in case of magical protections aka wall of force or mirage arcane buildings. Then I will attempt to stall to him/ her until my allies in the back get in range to unleash the bullet swarm. If this round is a surprise round a good strategy would be casting silence move up close and then using that rounds reaction to attempt grapple or interrupt counterspell casting. When the undead unleashes magic missile I will counterspell the shield spells of the wizard(if he moves out of silence) while my allies are doing circles around him/her. Some melee guys may even join the fray to grapple.

[Lord8Ball]

I would say that's nice. I'm suggest to "Wish: Duplicating Animal Shapes", turning Awakened Bats into Giant Eagles...Use your Minions to ride yours Giant Eagles.
If you Dip sorcerer, use Distant Metamagic to double the range effect of Animal Shapes, Multiplying 8x the original area.
Now you have an army of FLYING undead.

Lmao, a bunch of undead paratroopers descend from the sky with feather fall cast on them and jump on the enemy from above. while some skeletons with bows fly in circles around the opponent shooting arrows while being held by eagles.

[Galactkaktus]

How big is the circle of wizards? The one that wins the initiative could just move out of counterspell range and then cast plane shift or something simular and let the other fight it out while using scrying magic to know when to finish the job.

[Coretex]

I'd be keen to test this, Probably on the side of Transmutation.
I feel like the most important things would end up being the minds of the wizards and the games they play with each other. Counterspell might actually be rarely used unless they know someone is targeting them particularly. Anyone standing out will probably get cut down quickly.

[samcifer]

Well... I suppose which ever one that had both the highest initiative and the Wish spell. "I wish every wizard but me would die."

[TheUser]

My strategy for a level 20 necromancer would be to take the mage slayer and warcaster feats and prodigy in athletics. From there I'd use a headband of intellect on one of my minions, give it sending stones and then teach everyone code for quick and easy communication between them all. Then I'd arm them with as many wands of magic missile as I could and get multiple squads on chariots to spread out while being commanded in the back line by an intelligent zombie. From there I'd try to scry the enemy wizard cast greater invisibility(with a glyph of warding) and then teleport to him/her when my allies are nearby, but outside spellcasting range. A dispel magic will be prepared just in case of magical protections aka wall of force or mirage arcane buildings. Then I will attempt to stall to him/ her until my allies in the back get in range to unleash the bullet swarm. If this round is a surprise round a good strategy would be casting silence move up close and then using that rounds reaction to attempt grapple or interrupt counterspell casting. When the undead unleashes magic missile I will counterspell the shield spells of the wizard(if he moves out of silence) while my allies are doing circles around him/her. Some melee guys may even join the fray to grapple.

Haha did you bother reading the level limit on spells that can be stored in a glyph of warding? (Hint: lower than level 4).

[Rixitichil]

You are aware Glyph of Warding can be upcast so that it can hold higher level spells?