Raising a Hellbred in an antimagic field

[BowStreetRunner]

Hellbred have a (Su) ability that prevents them from being raised by any magic less than a Resurrection. A (Su) ability goes away inside an antimagic field. The Initiate of Mystra feat allows you to cast spells inside an antimagic field.

Does that mean that you could use Initiate of Mystara to cast Raise Dead to restore a Hellbred inside an antimagic field?

[Fouredged Sword]

Hellbred have a (Su) ability that prevents them from being raised by any magic less than a Resurrection. A (Su) ability goes away inside an antimagic field. The Initiate of Mystra feat allows you to cast spells inside an antimagic field.

Does that mean that you could use Initiate of Mystara to cast Raise Dead to restore a Hellbred inside an antimagic field?

I think you would have to track down their soul and put it into an AMF as well, but it seems like a possibility.

[Psyren]

As noted, it would depend on whether that ability stays with the body (which you've blocked from magic) or the soul (which you haven't.)

[Malimar]

Last I heard, it's not entirely clear whether creatures even retain their abilities when dead. If so, there are weirdnesses where, for example, Warforged are 50% resistant to resurrection spells, and you need to overcome SR to resurrect a creature that has it, and so on. But if not, then the Hellbred's no-raise-dead "ability" just goes away when it dies, making them perfectly susceptible to raise dead even under normal circumstances.

But that's a weird dysfunction.

[Psyren]

I would just say it's a specific exception trumping a general rule. Normally your abilities don't matter when dead, but the Hellbred and Warforged abilities specifically apply when they are dead.

[BowStreetRunner]

Last I heard, it's not entirely clear whether creatures even retain their abilities when dead. If so, there are weirdnesses where, for example, Warforged are 50% resistant to resurrection spells, and you need to overcome SR to resurrect a creature that has it, and so on. But if not, then the Hellbred's no-raise-dead "ability" just goes away when it dies, making them perfectly susceptible to raise dead even under normal circumstances.

But that's a weird dysfunction.The entire Hellbred entry on page 78 of the Fiendish Codex II seems like a weird dysfunction. Not only is their inability to be raised by anything less than resurrection a (Su) ability, but the ability score adjustments for the race are listed inside either an (Ex) ability or a (Su) ability, depending upon which one you take. It doesn't list a Size or Speed either. And there are no prerequisites given for becoming a Hellbred, although it gives the new Type and Subtype as Humanoid (Hellbred) - begging the question "can non-humanoid races become Hellbred?"

I've never heard of the Warforged resistance to resurrection spells before - and can't find that in MM3 or RoE anywhere. But regardless, when raising any creature with such an ability it would make sense that as soon as the 'soul' enters the body again, the ability kicks in and 'rejects' the attempt. Which is why raising inside an antimagic field seems like it might work.

I can't think of another way to reason through this, since the 'soul' doesn't retain the abilities of the living creature and the body is just a corpse until it is raised. The only logic that made sense is that as soon as the soul re-enters the body the abilities kick in and before the raising can be completed, the ability causes it to fail.

[Bronk]

The entire Hellbred entry on page 78 of the Fiendish Codex II seems like a weird dysfunction. Not only is their inability to be raised by anything less than resurrection a (Su) ability

When you think about it, raise dead type magic doesn't make much sense in the first place. When a character dies, their soul moves on and eventually becomes a 2HD petitioner of some sort. Why should the result of casting a raise dead type spell on the deceased's corpse be determined by what they were in life? It's still being cast on an object, while the soul has turned into an outsider with completely different stats. Raise dead type spells don't bother with all of that explanation, and just say what they can do in their text.

Hellbred's Hellbound ability tries to do something similar, but they definitely screwed it up by making it something tied to the living character. It should have been higher up in the descriptive text, saying something like, "blah blah blah, the upper and lower planes are halfheartedly fighting over the soul, so it's caught up in a low level devilish small claims court system. For some reason having to do with the Pact Primeval, only a resurrection spell or greater is powerful enough to slice through the red tape and wrest the soul away from the bickering lawyers."

On top of that, you'd think Hellbred, their bodies formed out of a soul and a bunch of planar energy, would be outsiders. That would restrict the spells used to bring the character back from death quite a bit just with that! Heck, it's harder to res an aasimar than a Hellbred!

TL;DR: Yeah, I agree Hellbred are super messed up.

[Psyren]

But regardless, when raising any creature with such an ability it would make sense that as soon as the 'soul' enters the body again, the ability kicks in and 'rejects' the attempt.

I disagree - for the soul to re-enter the body, the attempt (spell) would have already had to succeed. There would thus no longer be an "attempt" to "reject." It would be like trying to counter a spell whose effects already resolved.

[BowStreetRunner]

I disagree - for the soul to re-enter the body, the attempt (spell) would have already had to succeed. There would thus no longer be an "attempt" to "reject." It would be like trying to counter a spell whose effects already resolved.I know. But it's the only time that the ability is actually present. So if you reject that, which RAW you probably should, then there really isn't any way RAW for the ability to work. It's truly dysfunctional.

It might have been better if it had been written by someone who understood game mechanics and they wrote "if you successfully raise a Hellbred with anything lower level than a Resurrection spell, then the Hellbred immediately dies again." Or something like that.

[Troacctid]

And there are no prerequisites given for becoming a Hellbred, although it gives the new Type and Subtype as Humanoid (Hellbred) - begging the question "can non-humanoid races become Hellbred?"
It's a form of reincarnation, not transformation.

[BowStreetRunner]

It's a form of reincarnation, not transformation.
Would a Hill Giant be able to come back as a Large Hellbred with 40 ft speed? No size or movement speed are listed for Hellbred.

[Lapak]

Am I the only one who read the title and was expecting a thread about rearing a Hellbred from infancy to adulthood in an Antimagic Field?

Probably yes?

[BowStreetRunner]

Am I the only one who read the title and was expecting a thread about rearing a Hellbred from infancy to adulthood in an Antimagic Field?

Probably yes?You would have to be. Hellbred come fully grown. They don't have an infancy! :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Would a Hill Giant be able to come back as a Large Hellbred with 40 ft speed? No size or movement speed are listed for Hellbred.

I think Giants might be a bit too valuable to waste on the kind of damnation/torture that leads to Hellbred. Just think, you could slap a fiendish template on a Giant and send it back without even needing to start it over with class levels etc.

[Troacctid]

I think Giants might be a bit too valuable to waste on the kind of damnation/torture that leads to Hellbred. Just think, you could slap a fiendish template on a Giant and send it back without even needing to start it over with class levels etc.
Why would celestial powers grant a creature the fiendish template?

[noce]

Am I the only one who read the title and was expecting a thread about rearing a Hellbred from infancy to adulthood in an Antimagic Field?

Probably yes?

Me too.
Raise is ambiguous.

[Psyren]

Why would celestial powers grant a creature the fiendish template?

They likely wouldn't need to, that's my point. Like Chromatic Dragons, Aberrations and other "mostly evil" non-humanoid races, Giants probably don't have a bunch of torture waiting for them. So there would be no reason for them to try the last-ditch repentance that leads to Hellbred, and even less reason for good deities to try intervening.

Using OotS as a tangentially-related example, the few giants we see in Hel's realm are sentries, not doing drudgery like cleaning her throne and serving as footstools. I would posit that the afterlife is a bit different for non-humanoid races.

[Remuko]

Am I the only one who read the title and was expecting a thread about rearing a Hellbred from infancy to adulthood in an Antimagic Field?

Probably yes?

I did too.


You would have to be. Hellbred come fully grown. They don't have an infancy! :smalltongue:

I didnt know this because I know almost nothing about them!

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Are (SU) abilities kept when using something like Magic Jar or Polymorph? If so, they’re tied to the mind/soul rather than the body. At least, that’s how I’d rule it.

[tterreb]

You would have to be. Hellbred come fully grown. They don't have an infancy! :smalltongue:

That's because they weren't in an antimagic field.

[BowStreetRunner]

Based on a quick survey of the responses to this thread...I suppose it is now necessary to turn to the discussion of the proper way to raise an infant Hellbred in an antimagic field. :smallsigh:

Would a pokemon daycare accept Hellbred?

On a more serious note...would a small sized Hellbred with 20 ft move be acceptable by RAW? SRD states humanoids are mostly small and medium sized, so it would seem reasonable that if a halfling or gnome came back as a Hellbred they would be small.

[Nifft]

You people are trying to take the magic out of childhood.

[Goaty14]

Methinks it's pretty much agreed that it'd work. The real challenge (albeit not a big one) would be to get an Antimagic Field (a rounds/level spell) to be active at the when you finish casting raise dead (10-min casting time, or 100 rounds). Contingency "cast AMF 95 rounds after I start casting raise dead", DMM Persist: AMF, or just doing it in a dead magic plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#deadMagic) comes to mind.

[unseenmage]

Methinks it's pretty much agreed that it'd work. The real challenge (albeit not a big one) would be to get an Antimagic Field (a rounds/level spell) to be active at the when you finish casting raise dead (10-min casting time, or 100 rounds). Contingency "cast AMF 95 rounds after I start casting raise dead", DMM Persist: AMF, or just doing it in a dead magic plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#deadMagic) comes to mind.

Dead magic zones inherit from Antimagic Field so that should work.

[PrismCat21]

Am I the only one who read the title and was expecting a thread about rearing a Hellbred from infancy to adulthood in an Antimagic Field?

Probably yes?

Another one right here.
<----------------

[Kelb_Panthera]

Am I the only one who read the title and was expecting a thread about rearing a Hellbred from infancy to adulthood in an Antimagic Field?

Probably yes?


Me too.
Raise is ambiguous.


I did too.



I didnt know this because I know almost nothing about them!

Another one right here.
<----------------

Even though I do know they're created as adults, I still half expected it since I suspect most people aren't familiar and/or don't read fluff.

[animewatcha]

Another pecularity. Hellbreds can start with whatever languages they knew in their former life or could speak or something like that. Therefore, you have a RAW reason to begin the game with every language ever printed ( including druidic ).

I wonder this. a 'tongue of sun and moon' monk dies and becomes hellbred. Does this mean this hellbred, no matter what class is picked, would be able to make use of 'language of all living things'?

[Thurbane]

Would a Hill Giant be able to come back as a Large Hellbred with 40 ft speed? No size or movement speed are listed for Hellbred.

Hellbred isn't really a template; it's a race that happens to have some loose connection to it's former life. A bit like an Elan. It's not a template in the way that Dragonborn is.

I'd never noticed that no size or speed is listed under racial traits before. How odd.

As much as I hate to put stat blocks up as RAW, both of the sample Hellbred are listed as Medium with a base speed of 30 (Tybalt page 79 and Galena page 92).

[Troacctid]

Another pecularity. Hellbreds can start with whatever languages they knew in their former life or could speak or something like that. Therefore, you have a RAW reason to begin the game with every language ever printed ( including druidic ).

I wonder this. a 'tongue of sun and moon' monk dies and becomes hellbred. Does this mean this hellbred, no matter what class is picked, would be able to make use of 'language of all living things'?
No. That's not a language the monk knows. It's an extraordinary ability that allows the monk to ignore language barriers when speaking.


Hellbred isn't really a template; it's a race that happens to have some loose connection to it's former life. A bit like an Elan. It's not a template in the way that Dragonborn is.

I'd never noticed that no size or speed is listed under racial traits before. How odd.

As much as I hate to put stat blocks up as RAW, both of the sample Hellbred are listed as Medium with a base speed of 30 (Tybalt page 79 and Galena page 92).
It's not the first race to have glitches. Whisper gnomes apparently don't have any languages.