Mystic Theurge without taking the PRC?

[Warrnan]

So I am in a party of Beatstick or rogue types. I need to cover both the arcane and divine side of things. We are going to start at level 7.

So my question is do I cloistered cleric and pick up magic domain type things with PRCs or

Should I wizard with arcane disciple feats?

Or something else?

Thanks again for your “Sage advice” playgrounders!

[Psyren]

I would recommend Cloistered Cleric as you suggested since that gives you the chance to cover both roles adequately (brains of the outfit + party band-aid/status removal) without diluting your build. Archivist would also be a good choice for this because you can pick up several useful arcane spells from domains and other divine lists like druid.

[BowStreetRunner]

...Archivist would also be a good choice for this because you can pick up several useful arcane spells from domains and other divine lists like druid.
Depending upon the flexibility of your DM, Archivist can access a wide range of arcane spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?553948-Archivist-Class-Spell-Access).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Can you get away with early entry tricks? If you can then you really don't have to choose.

The simplest version is an elf or half-elf sorcerer 2/ mystic 1/mystic theurge 6/wildrunner 1/arcane hierophant 10.

Versatile spellcaster and heighten spell at 1 and 3, get survival on-list with either draconic heritage at 6 or the travel domain from mystic (I'd go with the feat so you can get the sun domain and some divine feats).

You get casting as a sorc 18/mystic 17. You can flip that if you like 9th level cleric spells better than 9th level sorc/wiz spells.

Edit: oh and those classes are not in the recommended order, btw. Wildrunner ASAP then all the way through AH then wrap up whatever's left with MT.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You could always take convert spell-to-power erudite. There are lots of ways to convert divine spells to arcane spells, which said erudite can then learn. Then you'd manifest them as psionic powers.

Of course, if you want even higher optimization, you could always play a psion who pays a friendly erudite to manifest psychic chirurgery to teach him all of those divine-spells-as-arcane-spells-as-psionic-powers so you're not limited to the erudite's unique powers per day mechanic and can also PrC out at your leisure.

[Covenant12]

Archivist could be great, but it needs a lengthy talk with the DM about access to spells among other things.

I second Psyren, if the party is melee heavy cloistered cleric is great, magic domain (wands and staves), spell domain (anyspell, any wizard spell up to 5th level), should cover anything the cleric list can't innately do.

Wizard is my favorite class as a player, but arcane disciple is surprisingly limited. If you're being expected to be the divine caster and the arcane caster roles, I'd advise against that route. You'll never get all debuff removal you want, and things like revivify/revenance are pretty much cleric (or variant cleric/archivist) only.

[Dagroth]

The real trick doesn't kick in until 16th level, but is super-powerful.

Warmage, Beguiler or Dread Necromancer 6/ Rainbow Servant 10

You now have spontaneous casting of every Cleric spell. Rainbow Servant adds all Cleric spells to your available spell list. Warmage, Beguiler and Dread Necromancer automatically know all the spells on their class list.

If you want healing spells early, get the Arcane Disciple Feat to add the Healing Domain to your spell list.

[ExLibrisMortis]

To complete the list of options, an artificer can actually provide everything you need, though it's not as straightforward. Have a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427628-Disregard-Money-Acquire-Buff-Spells-Artificers-without-the-Artifice). In particular, read the section at the bottom of the first post called "Bread, Butter, Knife".

[Dagroth]

I forgot another option.

Mystic Ranger (Dragon Magazine... forget which issue). Give up Animal Companion & Martial Melee Weapon proficiencies to gain Ranger spells starting at 1st level.

Add Sword of the Arcane Order Feat to be able to learn & prepare Wizard spells in your Ranger Spell Slots.
Some GMs will insist you need the Mystic Training Feat to have a spell book... other GMs will say you can just buy one.

[Pyromancer999]

A campaign-setting-specific potential solution would be using a combination of Sovereign Dragon Archetypes from Eberron(which grant you spells to add to your spellcasting list, which can include the cleric spell list for a few and druid for one, if I'm not mistaken), Dragonwrought Kobold to qualify, and any fixed list caster(Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, or Warmage). This gives you unfettered access to the entire cleric spell list spontaneously.

A similar, but non-campaign-specific solution would be to enter the Rainbow Servant Prc as a fixed-list caster, which adds all Cleric spells, plus a couple domains, to your spell list to the same effect, though this comes online later.

[Troacctid]

You could be an Arcane Disciple (Dragon #311). It's a variant Cleric. You get a d6 hit die, 4 + Int skill points, and a bonus metamagic or item creation feat at 1st, 5th, and every 5 levels thereafter. Decipher Script and Use Magic Device are class skills. You lose domains and turn undead, but at each level, you get to choose a spell from the Bard or Sor/Wiz list, which cannot be of your highest level, and add it to your Cleric class spell list. You also add all the spells from the Magic domain to your Cleric class spell list.

[Warrnan]

Archivist could be great, but it needs a lengthy talk with the DM about access to spells among other things.

I second Psyren, if the party is melee heavy cloistered cleric is great, magic domain (wands and staves), spell domain (anyspell, any wizard spell up to 5th level), should cover anything the cleric list can't innately do.

Wizard is my favorite class as a player, but arcane disciple is surprisingly limited. If you're being expected to be the divine caster and the arcane caster roles, I'd advise against that route. You'll never get all debuff removal you want, and things like revivify/revenance are pretty much cleric (or variant cleric/archivist) only.

Good to know. Arcane disciple is off the table now.

Archivist certainly fits the flavor I’m going for. I’ll see what my DM says.

If he’s skiddish I’ll go Cleric for sure.

BTW. The setting we are playing is the era of the historical Crusades.

[Troacctid]

Good to know. Arcane disciple is off the table now.
I'm guessing you mean Arcane Disciple from Complete Divine, not Arcane Disciple from Dragon #311! Totally different things. The latter is much better.

[Cosi]

I'm not really sure what you mean by "cover the arcane side of things". Cleric/Dweomerkeeper seems like it would get you pretty much what you're looking for. anyspell gives you arcane casting, you're probably taking some metamagic anyway, and you can spare an item creation feat. You get all your normal Cleric goodness, plus some increased flexibility (culminating in supernatural limited wish, which is totally insane). Combine with Cloistered Cleric, DMM: Persist, or Initiate of Mystra cheese as suits your preference. Arguably you can add domain spells to your Mantle of Spells.

[Covenant12]

I'm guessing you mean Arcane Disciple from Complete Divine, not Arcane Disciple from Dragon #311! Totally different things. The latter is much better.I believe so, and that's what I'm responding to. Wizard with (multiple) Arcane disciple feats has issues. Can't ever change alignment, only one slot total per spell level, needs sufficient wisdom to cast it. Also unless DM adds "Deity with all the domains I want" you have to select a very few from one deity.

And the feat can be great, especially for beguiler/dread necromancer/warmage, but it doesn't make you your party's divine caster, as a rule.

Arcane disciple from dragon magazine I hadn't heard of before this thread, definitely need to look into it.

[Dagroth]

I believe so, and that's what I'm responding to. Wizard with (multiple) Arcane disciple feats has issues. Can't ever change alignment, only one slot total per spell level, needs sufficient wisdom to cast it. Also unless DM adds "Deity with all the domains I want" you have to select a very few from one deity.

And the feat can be great, especially for beguiler/dread necromancer/warmage, but it doesn't make you your party's divine caster, as a rule.

Arcane disciple from dragon magazine I hadn't heard of before this thread, definitely need to look into it.

Choose "The Sovereign Host" from Forgotten Realms as "your deity". You worship 7 deities, gaining access to all their Domains and have a small range of alignments you can choose from!

[radthemad4]

When a Warmage, Beguiler or Dread Necromancer gets a domain (e.g. Rainbow Servant 1), they add the spells to their spell list. If you then UMD 'Substitute Domain' from Complete Champion, p. 128 from a Wand (or use Extra Spell to get it and ignore the FAQ that prevents that), you can then swap out any domain you have for a different domain, swapping out domain spells as well. Worship the Sovereign Host to have as many domain choices as possible. This is doable at level 7 minimum (Dreadwarbeguiler 6/Rainbow Servant 1) without early entry tricks into Rainbow Servant and is better than the Arcane Disciple feat as you don't need Wisdom, can cast domain spells as many times as needed, and can swap out which domain spells you have anytime you have 10 minutes to spare. If you don't expect the game to last long enough to get Rainbow Servant 10, you could just take Rainbow Servant 1 and then take other domain granting PRCs, or whatever other PRC you want, but if there's even a chance that Rainbow Servant 10 is obtainable, go for it as spontaneously casting all cleric spells is amazing!

There's a list of Sovereign Host Domains here: http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=3429.0
and a list of 3.5 domains with spells offered here: http://ftm3.altervista.org/ASMoNM/domains.html

Edit:


BTW. The setting we are playing is the era of the historical Crusades.God is omnipotent right? He should have all the domains :smallsmile:

[Darrin]

Or something else?


Phaerrim hatchling is a thing (from Lost Empires of Faerun/Player's Guide to Faerun). However, it's hard to play it as a serious character since you look like a moldy tubesock with tentacles. Sylph (MM3) has a similar spellcasting ability, but the LA +5 with 3 racial HD doesn't work all that well with your starting ECL of 7.

Rainbow Warsnake (or anything with 10 levels of Rainbow Servant) can do tier 1 as both arcane/divine, but unless you really cheese up your entry method the payoff takes awhile before it unlocks.

Any divine caster with access to the Spell domain (and thus access to anyspell and greater anyspell) might work best with the least amount of fuss.

[NecroDancer]

Artificer is a good class and you can replicate most arcane or divine spells.

[gomipile]

You could always take convert spell-to-power erudite. There are lots of ways to convert divine spells to arcane spells, which said erudite can then learn. Then you'd manifest them as psionic powers.

Of course, if you want even higher optimization, you could always play a psion who pays a friendly erudite to manifest psychic chirurgery to teach him all of those divine-spells-as-arcane-spells-as-psionic-powers so you're not limited to the erudite's unique powers per day mechanic and can also PrC out at your leisure.

An erudite(spell-to-power or not) can also get psionic powers from the Life mantle in Complete Psionic, which would let them fill the healbot role.

[Malimar]

Sha'ir base class (Dragon Compendium) is very strange, but technically both arcane and divine.

Savant base class (also Dragon Compendium) eventually gets arcane and divine spells, but on a limited schedule and also blows chunks.

Chameleon PrC (Races of Destiny) gets arcane or divine casting (but can switch out every day), then at 7th level can do both. But, again, on a slow schedule -- but still a bit less chunk-blowy than Savant.

Factotum base class (Dungeonscape), which is similar in concept to Savant but much better, gets a healing pool and some arcane spells (slow-ish progression, as SLAs, it's unnecessarily bizarre) and Turn Undead and stuff. Decent entry class for Chameleon.

[Jormengand]

It depends entirely what you mean by the "Arcane and divine side of things". If you want someone who can heal, throw AoE damage spells with reckless abandon, and lock enemies down, you could be a druid. Technically, if you want healing and blasting, you can be a truenamer. If you actually want to have arcane and divine abilities... that raises the question of what you hope to achieve by doing that.

Another thing you can do that's weird but maybe decent is take a paladin with battle blessing and sword of the arcane order feats and the mystic fire knight ACF, and then you can drop a low-level healing spell and a blasting spell in the same round. But you don't actually get very many spells (though it's trivially cheap to get more spells/day via magic items), so there's that.

[OgresAreCute]

A Phaerimm Hatchling Favored Soul with the Dynamic Priest feat will have equally leveled arcane + divine spontaneous casting, keying exclusively off of charisma. You'll only be level 5 in those classes because of the level adjust though, so you'll have 2nd level spells as opposed to a wizard or cleric who would have 4th.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you wanna try something different, have you looked at shugenja? As long as you go with earth or air for your focus, you get the blasting from fire and the healing from water as secondary options.

[Warrnan]

If you wanna try something different, have you looked at shugenja? As long as you go with earth or air for your focus, you get the blasting from fire and the healing from water as secondary options.

Hadn’t considered Shugenja. That’s a great idea as well!

[Nifft]

Artificer does all the jobs, if you claim enough of the treasure pool to support those jobs.

Propose that the party allocate a healing & buffs pool, and build them stuff using that pool (and your craft XP reserve).

[Thurbane]

If you just want to straight Cleric with more access to Sor/Wiz spells, there is the ACF (Divine Magician, Complete Mage) that trades away one of your domains to add a single Sor/Wiz spell of each level (1-9) to your class list (Abj, Necro or Div only).

The Southern Magician feat (RoF) allows you to cast Cleric spells as arcane, which can open up some more options too...