How do I resolve mutually exclusive effects?

[holywhippet]

Consider this scenario - character A is a cleric who uses turn undead on zombie B. Character C however casts compulsion on zombie B. Turn undead forces zombie B to move as far away from character A as possible until it wears off. But compulsion lets character C force zombie B to move in whatever direction they wish. This could result in mutually exclusive results. Even if turn undead stops the movement from being towards character A it could still stop them moving directly away from them.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Consider this scenario - character A is a cleric who uses turn undead on zombie B. Character C however casts compulsion on zombie B. Turn undead forces zombie B to move as far away from character A as possible until it wears off. But compulsion lets character C force zombie B to move in whatever direction they wish. This could result in mutually exclusive results. Even if turn undead stops the movement from being towards character A it could still stop them moving directly away from them.

Options as I see them:

1) last cast wins.
2) first cast wins.
3) opposed roll.
4) in any case of conflict, the zombie is treated as if it can't move at all and instead cowers in place
5) purple penguins singing show tunes burst forth and perform a dance routine.

[Lunali]

Now that I'm looking at it, the wording on turn undead is a bit wonky. By RAW it appears that if a creature can't end it's move more than 30 ft from the cleric, it can't move at all, not even to get farther away from the cleric.

How I would treat the situation, compulsion forces the zombie to move towards the cleric as much as possible, which I would rule as 0ft. It would also have to move as much as possible away from the cleric, so full movement plus dash.

[KorvinStarmast]

Why is player C wasting a resource on the zombie when the other player has it on the run? Do the players not understand playing as a team? That's a core conceit of the game.

[Lunali]

Why is player C wasting a resource on the zombie when the other player has it on the run? Do the players not understand playing as a team? That's a core conceit of the game.

Maybe character C isn't friendly to character A, they aren't necessarily player characters.

[Quoxis]

Depends on whether the movement forced upon the zombie by compulsion counts as the zombie „willingly“ moving, as that’s the wording of turn undead.

If you argue that compulsion is an enchantment spell that kinda sorta bends a victim‘s will making it want to move towards the cleric, it can’t - in that case i‘d rule that the zombie just stays in place, „404: can’t compute. Restart z0mb13 in safe mode? [Y/N]“.

If you argue that nothing states that the zombie has a choice or any form of willingness in the matter, it can enter the area around the cleric - it still can’t attack them as it has to spend its action by dashing the other way (making this an interesting game of monster-pong - the zombie uses its regular movement towards the cleric just to spend its action moving away again).

For easing the situation up, i‘d say take the second choice and call it a day.

[Quoxis]

Maybe character C isn't friendly to character A, they aren't necessarily player characters.

Even if A and C are mortal enemies, if C doesn’t hurt the zombie, it still can’t attack A.

[AvvyR]

I think this one is pretty open and shut. Compulsion forces the creature to do something it can do. The conditions imposed by Turn make it impossible for the zombie to follow the order. Compulsion doesn't let the creature do the impossible just because you tell it to. By the same token, a creature paralyzed by Hold Monster can't be Compulsed to move and attack.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think this one is pretty open and shut. Compulsion forces the creature to do something it can do. The conditions imposed by Turn make it impossible for the zombie to follow the order. Compulsion doesn't let the creature do the impossible just because you tell it to. By the same token, a creature paralyzed by Hold Monster can't be Compulsed to move and attack.

This is probably the best answer for this. I can't be compelled to fly to the moon if I lack that ability. The compulsion from Turn does allow a creature that cannot move further away to cower in fear; this is the intersection of the constraints. So the compulsion cannot be satisfied without breaking the Turning, but is least violated by doing nothing (not moving at all). The Turn conditions aren't violated by not moving, so it's the minimum constraint violation point.

[Kane0]

When something like this comes up I usually go with the most powerful then most recent effect.

[Malifice]

The creature must spend its turn trying to move as far away from the Cleric (who turned it) as it can, and it can't willingly move to a space within 30 feet of the Cleric. It also can't take reactions.

Note the words 'willingly'. Compulsion overrides the will of the Zombie. You could (for example) use Compulsion to move a creature into a lake of magma.

So a caster that has cast compulsion on a turned Zombie, could use a bonus action on thier turn (as the spell allows) to designate an area closer to the Cleric, and force the turned Zombie to move to that location on its turn, even though the designated area is closer to the Cleric.

[Malifice]

Its clear when you read the abilities.

Turn undead makes the Zombie want to run away. Compulsion overrides this desire and forces the Zombie (against its will) to move where you designate.

It doesnt want to be closer to the Cleric (because it's turned). But it is magically compelled to go there, regardless of what it wants to do.

[Reynaert]

IMO, rule of cool dictates that you do an opposed check. It's a battle of will/wits between the two casters trying to make the zombie move. Perhaps even make the distance moved depend on the difference.

That's a lot more fun (in the game (*)) than trying to work out the result from the exact spell wordings.

*) I grant that there is fun in trying to work out results by picking apart the exact wordings of the spell, but I would keep that a theoretical endeavour and not actually use the result in a game.

[AvvyR]

Note the words 'willingly'. Compulsion overrides the will of the Zombie. You could (for example) use Compulsion to move a creature into a lake of magma.



A target isn't compelled to move into an obviously
deadly hazard, such as a fire or pit, but it will provoke
opportunity attacks to move in the designated direction.

"Willingly" means using its movement, as opposed to being forced to move by something like Thunderwave.

[Malifice]

"Willingly" means using its movement, as opposed to being forced to move by something like Thunderwave.

Turning isn't something pushing it away like thuderwave, or bigbys hand pushing it.

Turning is making it want to run away. Once turned it wants to get as far away from you as possible.

In my view compulsion overrides that desire.

[Reynaert]

Turning isn't something pushing it away like thuderwave, or bigbys hand pushing it.

Turning is making it want to run away. Once turned it wants to get as far away from you as possible.

In my view compulsion overrides that desire.

The rules for turn undead do not say anything about making the undead want anything. It *must* do something.
Compare the wordings of the two:


... A turned creature must spend its turns ...

... Each target must use its movement ...

They are essentially the same.

[Malifice]

The rules for turn undead do not say anything about making the undead want anything. It *must* do something.
Compare the wordings of the two:




They are essentially the same.

It doesn't matter. Its will is overborne by the compulsion.

[Ganymede]

I laughed a little when I read Turning makes undead "want to run away." That's quite the optimist's take!

[Malifice]

I laughed a little when I read Turning makes undead "want to run away." That's quite the optimist's take!

Like a cross to a vampire (which is what the ability is based on).

[Quoxis]

Compare the wordings of the two:
They are essentially the same.

It must use its turn, including its action to dash, to move away from the cleric/pally. The use of its regular movement is conflicting between the turn feature and the compulsion spell, but the „must use its action to dash away“ is pretty clear.
The „willing“ point comes a tad later: the undead can’t willingly come closer to the turner. That’s another point to consider.

[Malifice]

It must use its turn, including its action to dash, to move away from the cleric/pally. The use of its regular movement is conflicting between the turn feature and the compulsion spell, but the „must use its action to dash away“ is pretty clear.
The „willing“ point comes a tad later: the undead can’t willingly come closer to the turner. That’s another point to consider.

And Compulsion expressly overrides questions of willpower.

Its not moving closer of its own free will. You're moving it closer with the spell.

Just like you could shove it closer to the cleric. Or drag it there.

It would be kicking and screaming the whole way of course, and if it got free it would immediately turn and and run away (presuming it's still turned).

[Nifft]

Step 1 - Flip a coin.

Step 2 - Catch the coin. Don't let the players see which side wins.

Step 3 - Smile malevolently while glancing at the coin behind your hand.

Step 4 - Do whatever is funniest.

[Reynaert]

And Compulsion expressly overrides questions of willpower.

Its not moving closer of its own free will. You're moving it closer with the spell.

Just like you could shove it closer to the cleric. Or drag it there.

It would be kicking and screaming the whole way of course, and if it got free it would immediately turn and and run away (presuming it's still turned).

The wording of the two effects is the same. They both state that the target *must* move in a specific way. Nowhere in the description of turn undead does it state that the target has any will related to *moving away* from the caster. Willpower does not come into the equation.

[Malifice]

The wording of the two effects is the same.

No they're not.

Read them again.

[Ganymede]

I think the main sticking point here is the superfluous language in Turn Undead.

"A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can't willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you."

The rule here talks about both how the target must behave and what it is willing to do. The weird thing is that the "willingly" language is largely subsumed by the "must" language. The only possible interaction I can imagine between these two rules would be with very slow undead (such as a Spawn of Kyuss' worm) not having the movement to get outside of this 30 foot radius. But, even if this slow undead is unable to willingly move away from the cleric because its movement would position it within 30 feet, it must still make this move because the first part of the rule compels it. In other words, spending your turns trying to move as far away as you can is compelled even if the very same effect means you willingly wouldn't do so.

Personally, it sounds like sloppy, redundant writing to me.

In either case, redundant "willingly" language aside, it looks like these are indeed mutually exclusive compulsions.

Edit: as for how to resolve this, I am reminded of the scene in Big Trouble in Little China where Egg Shen and Lo Pan test their magical mettle by clashing together eldritch avatars.

[ciarannihill]

So there are, realistically 3 answers to this:

1. However the DM wants to rule it at the table at the time, based on the circumstances.

2. By RAW, which as far as I can tell, Malifice is 100% correct about. Turn Undead makes it unwilling to come near you, but Compulsion forces it to regardless of its will -- Unwillingness doesn't prevent Compulsion from taking hold. If Turn Undead was worded as "the Undead becomes unable to move to a space within 30 feet of you" instead of referring to it's willingness there'd be more to argue here (and I think the opposite would probably be correct), but as it stands by RAW it appears to me that Malifice is correct, unless...

3. You could decide that the Undead views moving towards the Cleric as moving towards a deadly hazard, which you could do so far as I can tell Turn Undead doesn't give a motivation for it's unwillingness to approach the Cleric and you could fill in that blank to make it work as you wish, should you choose to.

As an action, each undead that can see or hear you within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned for 1 minute or until it takes any damage.

A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can't willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you. It also can't take reactions. For its action, it can use only the Dash action or try to escape from an effect that prevents it from moving. If there's nowhere to move, the creature can use the Dodge action.

Creatures of your choice that you can see and that can hear you must make a Wisdom save. It automatically succeeds if it can’t be charmed.

Until the spell ends, you can use your bonus action to designate a direction horizontal to you. Each target must use its movement to move in that direction on its turn. It can take its action before it moves. After moving, it can make another Wisdom save.

A target isn't compelled to move into a deadly hazard, but is willing to provoke opportunity attacks.



Having said that, the principle of the situation is interesting, but I am willing to be there are very few of these that don't have a caveat like this one does that determines how it's intended to play out.

[Ganymede]

2. By RAW, ... Turn Undead makes it unwilling to come near you, but Compulsion forces it to regardless of its will

"A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can"

and

"it can't willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you."

Are two separate effects of Turn Undead. You have to deal with them both.

[AvvyR]

Once again, the turned condition sets what the creature can and cannot do. It can (nay, must) use its action to dash and its movement to move as far away as possible. The End. It cannot do anything that is not that exact thing. The Compulsion spell tells it to use its movement for something else, but it can't do that. It's not an available option.


Compare the turned condition to paralyzed, grappled, restrained, stunned, etc. These conditions dictate what options are available to the affected creature. You wouldn't even be having this discussion if we changed Turn to Stunning Fist.

[Malifice]

"A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can"

and

"it can't willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you."

Are two separate effects of Turn Undead. You have to deal with them both.

if its under the effects of the Compuslsion spell, its not 'willingly moving to a space within 30'of you' is it?

Its not willingly moving anywhere. The caster of Compulsion is moving it against its will.

[Ganymede]

if its under the effects of the Compuslsion spell, its not 'willingly moving to a space within 30'of you' is it?

Its not willingly moving anywhere. The caster of Compulsion is moving it against its will.

Yeah, that's true!

But you still need to apply the first restriction, Turn Undead compelling the target to move as far away as possible from the target.

Compulsion might be able to override the second restriction (the fact that you can't willingly move to a square within 30'), but it competes directly with the first restriction (the dictate to move as far away as possible).

That's where the conflict comes into play.


Once again, the turned condition sets what the creature can and cannot do. It can (nay, must) use its action to dash and its movement to move as far away as possible. The End. It cannot do anything that is not that exact thing. The Compulsion spell tells it to use its movement for something else, but it can't do that. It's not an available option.

It sounds like that you're saying that Turn Undead takes precedence because it was already in place when Compulsion was cast.

What would you say happens if the subject of a Compulsion spell was hit with Turn Undead afterward?

[Laserlight]

The only possible interaction I can imagine between these two rules would be with very slow undead (such as a Spawn of Kyuss' worm) not having the movement to get outside of this 30 foot radius.

Edit: as for how to resolve this, I am reminded of the scene in Big Trouble in Little China where Egg Shen and Lo Pan test their magical mettle by clashing together eldritch avatars.

+1 Internet for the Big Trouble in Little China reference.

The situation where I've had "cannot willingly move within 30ft" come up is when I enter a room with one exit and cast Turn on undead who are already in the room. In order to get "as far away from me as possible" they would have to pass by me and go out the exit, but they can't do that because they'd have to pass within 30ft of me. They end up stuck in an alcove or corner.

Protip: maneuver so that "as far away from you" is "bunched in one corner", if you have a good AOE blaster.

[Malifice]

Yeah, that's true!

But you still need to apply the first restriction, Turn Undead compelling the target to move as far away as possible from the target.

Compulsion might be able to override the second restriction (the fact that you can't willingly move to a square within 30'), but it competes directly with the first restriction (the dictate to move as far away as possible).

That's where the conflict comes into play.

Id say the later compulsion (from the spell) takes precedence. Turn undead panics the undead and makes the undead want to run away. The Compulsion spell replaces what the undead wants to do (or where it wants to move to) with what the caster wants. The undead has no say in the matter; it's not the thing deciding to move or where to move.

The undead is no longer moving; the caster is moving the undead. It wants to get away from the Cleric, but the caster is moving it closer to the Cleric against its will.

It's no different to a Bigbys hand or a TK spell moving the target against its will, or a turned undead falling on the caster (Turn undead doesnt override gravity for example).

[Reynaert]

Turn undead panics the undead and makes the undead want to run away.

It doesn't make the undead "want" to run away. Therefore the rest of your arguments is invalidated.

[Malifice]

It doesn't make the undead "want" to run away. Therefore the rest of your arguments is invalidated.

Yes it does. Like presenting a Cross to a Vampire. It panics and runs away.

It's not a force like gravity or telekinesis eminating from the holy symbol and pushing the undead away for 10 rounds. The undead gets 'scared' (expressly not called frightened because then many undead would be immune on account of immunity to fear on a fair few of them) and bolts.

Its like a creature dominated and given orders to move to area 'X'. If it was subsequently controlled by a second caster with Compulsion, the second caster could override the Dominate effect (and the will of the creature) and move the Creature where ever the caster wanted.

[Ganymede]

Yes it does. Like presenting a Cross to a Vampire. It panics and runs away.

I think you're relying on fluff/flavor as an actual rule.

It's fine, I guess, as a way to resolve the contradictory effects, but Compulsion seems way more like Turn Undead than it does to shoving someone or causing someone to fall.

It sounds like you're saying that Turn Undead is not like falling, but Compulsion is like falling, which just feels plain wrong. Fluff wise, they both seem equally like forces that subsume a target's will and force autonomic behavior.

[Tanarii]

The situation where I've had "cannot willingly move within 30ft" come up is when I enter a room with one exit and cast Turn on undead who are already in the room. In order to get "as far away from me as possible" they would have to pass by me and go out the exit, but they can't do that because they'd have to pass within 30ft of me. They end up stuck in an alcove or corner. There's several possible interpretations of the 30ft portion of the rule:
A) the undead cannot pass within 30ft of you, and if already within 30ft it cannot move
B) the undead cannot pass within 30ft of you, nor move closer if it's already within 30ft of you
C) the undead cannot end its move within 30ft of you

With the last one, you generally have to be physically blocking the only exit.

[BloodOgre]

Compulsion: 4th level spell

"Creatures of your choice that you can see within range and that can hear you must make a Wisdom saving throw. A target automatically succeeds on this saving throw if it can't be charmed. On a failed save, a target is affected by this spell. Until the spell ends, you can use a bonus action on each of your turns to designate a direction that is horizontal to you. Each affected target must use as much of its movement as possible to move in that direction on its next turn. It can take its action before it moves. After moving in this way, it can make another Wisdom saving to try to end the effect. A target isn't compelled to move into an obviously deadly hazard, such as a fire or pit, but it will provoke opportunity attacks to move in the designated direction."

Turn undead: 2nd level Channel Divinity

"As an action, you present your holy Symbol and speak a prayer censuring the Undead. Each Undead that can see or hear you within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned for 1 minute or until it takes any damage.

A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can't willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you. It also can't take reactions. For its action, it can use only the Dash action or try to escape from an effect that prevents it from moving. If there's nowhere to move, the creature can use the Dodge action."

Compulsion does not allow you to move the zombie into lava, or any other obvious deadly hazard. At best Compulsion can make the zombie move horizontally in the direction of the Cleric casting turn undead if the Zombie does not view the cleric as an obvious deadly hazard. And then Turn Undead requires the zombie to use it's Dash action to move away. So, in my mind, that means the zombie is in a crisis of will and simply cowers in place.

If you think the zombie must move, then since both effects require a wisdom save, I would rule that whichever save it fails by the most is the one it ultimately obeys. For example, Cleric A is 2nd level and has a DC of 12. Zombie has a Wis bonus of -2, and rolls a 5 vs turn undead, making his save a 3, missing the save by 9. Caster C must be at least 7th level to cast a 4th level spell and has a DC of 16. Example 1: Zombie rolls 12 vs compulsion, with the -2 bonus it is 10, and misses the Compulsion save by 6. Cleric A wins. Example 2: Zombie rolls 8 vs Compulsion, with the -2 Wis bonus, its save is 6, and therefore misses on the compulsion save by 10. Caster C wins.

If it were me DMing, though. I'd rule that zombie has a crisis of will and cowers in place.

[DMThac0]

As the baseline to this argument:


The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap. For example, if two clerics cast bless on the same target, that character gains the spell’s benefit only once; he or she doesn’t get to roll two bonus dice. PHB. 205

A) The spells are similar: Whoever has the higher level caster would win out. In the case of the hypothetical "everyone is equal" I would say it would be based on initiative, the quickest to get their spell cast. If you want to get even more stringent, with tied everything, it would come down to a die roll at my table, the fairest way.

B) The spells are dissimilar: It would require setting the precedent for the rest of the game that Turn vs Compulsion one of them is "stronger" than the other and in all situations going forward that ruling will stand.

In the end, this requires the DM to make the final call as there is just enough grey area to make this an interesting debate.

[ciarannihill]

As the baseline to this argument:


The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap. For example, if two clerics cast bless on the same target, that character gains the spell’s benefit only once; he or she doesn’t get to roll two bonus dice. PHB. 205

A) The spells are similar: Whoever has the higher level caster would win out. In the case of the hypothetical "everyone is equal" I would say it would be based on initiative, the quickest to get their spell cast. If you want to get even more stringent, with tied everything, it would come down to a die roll at my table, the fairest way.

B) The spells are dissimilar: It would require setting the precedent for the rest of the game that Turn vs Compulsion one of them is "stronger" than the other and in all situations going forward that ruling will stand.

In the end, this requires the DM to make the final call as there is just enough grey area to make this an interesting debate.

Wouldn't Compulsion, by these rules, take over given it's a 4th level spell vs a 2nd level feature? Genuinely asking.

[DMThac0]

Yup, that's why I put it in those terms.

It could be argued, however, that the character level may indicate a higher base spell level since it is a feature, not a classic spell. So a cleric with the ability to cast 5th level spells could be considered as casting Turn at 5th level.

That's why "A" has the clauses in it that it does.

[furby076]

"A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can"

and

"it can't willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you."

Are two separate effects of Turn Undead. You have to deal with them both.

well, actually, there is a problem here. You included "and" but took it out of quotes. The word 'and' makes the two statements conjoined. So both sections must happen or neither can happen. Compulsion overrides the "willingly move" component, invalidating one side of the and, thus invalidating both sides.

[leogobsin]

(To be perfectly honest, I think just the fact that this discussion has gone on for as long as it has is pretty good evidence that the right call as a DM would be a coin flip, the zombie shutting down and doing nothing, a contest between the cleric and the person who cast Compulsion using their casting stats, or some other similar random/semi-random resolution.)

[Ganymede]

well, actually, there is a problem here. You included "and" but took it out of quotes. The word 'and' makes the two statements conjoined. So both sections must happen or neither can happen. Compulsion overrides the "willingly move" component, invalidating one side of the and, thus invalidating both sides.

Naw, a comma came before the conjunction. That means they are two separate yet related clauses.

[Xetheral]

Note that Compulsion has a caveat that hasn't been discussed: "Each affected target must use as much of its movement as possible to move in [the indicated] direction on its next turn."(Emphasis added.)

A turned creature can only move if it can end its movement in a square that is both (a) as far away from the turning character as it can move, and (b) more than 30' away from the turning character. The second requirement, (b), has a willingness exception.

Compulsion can override willingness, and thus overcome (b), but the caveat above prevents the spell from overcoming (a). It's simply not possible for a turned character to move to a square that isn't as far from the turning character as it can move.

Ergo, Compulsion does nothing to a turned target, with two exceptions: (1) Compulsion can compel a turned creature to move to a space that is both as far from the turning character as it can move AND within 30' feet of the turning character, and/or (2) Compulsion can compel a turned creature to move to a specific square that is as far away from the tuning character as it can move in a situation where there are multiple such squares equidistant from the turning character.

[Segev]

Personally, I would rule that Turn Undead takes precedence, because otherwise, one cannot turn undead that are controlled by another caster. I make little RAW argument, here; I base my position on utility and history of the powers in question.



Tangentially, does anybody else find compulsion to be a really weird spell? Forcing lateral movement is a strangely specific effect for a 4th level spell, and the name of the spell doesn't suggest that specifically narrow of a "compulsion." I could see it as easily replacing the name of the spell currently called "hold person," if hold person didn't already have its own, much more descriptive name. What about lateral movement made them think "compulsion" was a good choice to name the spell, rather than something like "divert advance" or "force aside?"

[Nifft]

What about lateral movement made them think "compulsion" was a good choice to name the spell, rather than something like "divert advance" or "force aside?"

Otto's Irresistible Lateral Shuffle.

Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Crab-Walk.

[sophontteks]

Turn undead additionally says that the undead can't move willingly within 30 feet of the caster, but it also must move away from the caster on its turn. And both effects happen on its turn.

So if it must move away from the caster and it must move a direction that is not away from the caster, then there is no legal movement it can take, so it would remain still.

But the opposed roll sounds interesting too.