Help me help a friend build Stealthy McStabbypants

[Ellrin]

Alright, just to make a few limitations clear at the start:

(1) Paizo and DSP materials are on the table. If there's some other 3PP that's really worth noting, I'd appreciate the info, but I have no idea if it'll be allowed.
(2) Spellcasting, alchemist/investigator-style alchemy, and manifesting are off the table, but SLAs, (Su), and initiating are fine.
(3) He's already picked a race, so goblin shenanigans are also off the table.

Okay, now that's out of the way, he's basically looking to make your standard shadowy assassin type. He'd like it to be partially optimized, especially in the stealth department, but not enough to impede flavor. He has a significant, but not strictly necessary, interest in being able to both throw weapons effectively and perform well in melee; I'm just not sure if there are enough feats in most builds to be able to accommodate effective ranged combat and super stealth, let alone ranged, melee, and super stealth, though I'm looking at DSP's stalker for that at the moment.

At the moment, since he's emphasized it a bit more, I'm more focused on stealth than the other elements of his interest. Obvious options are some feats like Skill Focus (Stealth), Hellcat Stealth, and Dampen Presence. Classes are undecided. We're toying with the idea of Shadowdancer dips, VMC Sorc (shadow bloodline), and Eldritch Heritage (shadow bloodline) right now. Some rogue talents are pretty good for stealth bastards, so I certainly wouldn't turn up my nose at an archetype that gives access to those (or just building a rogue).

Are there any classes or archetypes that give significant bonuses to stealth?

He also likes initiating a lot, but I'm not super familiar with all of the disciplines. Are there any that are particularly stealthy? I noticed Veiled Moon has stealth as a discipline skill, but at a glance it seems more DBZ-style afterimage-focused than sneaky. I know Steel Serpent has a stance that gives a little sneak attack and is generally pretty rogue-flavored, but I don't recall any way for it to boost stealth.

[Kurald Galain]

The Ninja class lets you go invisible as a swift action at level two; there isn't much in the game that's stealthier than that.

If you're willing to dip a level into cleric, you can ignore all of its spellcasting (e.g. by having not enough wisdom) but still get Channel Energy (which a cheap item can convert into more charges of ninja invis) and the Deception subdomain (to get the mystic Ninja Log ability).

Mesmerist is also a good dip (if you stay too low-level to get spells) because one of the mesmerist first level tricks is an immediate-action smoke cloud.

HTH!

[Nigeretalbus]

Kineticist(Aether) + VMC Rogue might fit the bill:

Telekinetic Blast lets him "throw weapons".

Kinetic Blade allows him to "use weapons" to deal decent damage, even daggers or other fancy/exotic choices.

Telekinetic Finesse allows fine manipulation (including disabling of traps) at close range. Via VMC Rogue, he gets Trapfinding at 3rd level.

Telekinetic Haul allows for very creative manipulations of the environment; one of the simplest is to pick up a sufficiently large carpet with Telekinetic Haul, invite your party to stand on it, and "fly".

Telekinetic Invisibility allows for excellent stealth.

Elemental Whispers & Greater Elemental Whispers lead to an Small Aether Elemental (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-aether/aether-elemental-small/) as familiar. This is amazing.

Remember, if you / your party members are light enough (small-sized race?), you can also choose to take low dmg and be tossed tactically for very sudden escapes.

At level 7 / 11 / 15 / 19, you get Sneak Attack - since you have at-will invisibility since level 6, you can expect to trigger it at least once per combat.

[Lotheb]

Stalker is definitely a good sneaky option. They have an archtype that gets sneak attack and inspiration instead of deadly strike and ki if that's the feel you want, but it loses the Veiled Moon discipline. Consider getting it back with the Unorthodox Method trait.
For sneaking:
Body of the Night, (first level Steel Serpent stance) Gives bonus to hit and damage vs flatfooted opponents, and gives a bonus to Stealth equal to your ranks in Heal.
Lurker in Darkness (feat, requires 6 ranks in stealth) is a better version of Dampen Pressence. Basically anything that would automatically sense you with a non vision/hearing sense still has to make a perception check to do so.
Ghostwalk (3rd level Veiled Moon boost) You become incorporeal for 1 round, allowing you to bypass all sorts of mundane anti sneak measures like walls and traps.
Blend with the Night (6th level Steel Serpent boost) 1 round of greater invisibility

[Elricaltovilla]

The rogue has an archetype called the hidden blade (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-rogue-archetypes/hidden-blade-rogue-archetype) that uses maneuvers. It should be compatible with the unchained version of Rogue, which is somewhat better than regular rogue.

For maneuvers, there's little actual stealth, but there are plenty of options for unusual movement types that will make it easier to scout or hide. Veiled Moon and Steel Serpent are the closest to "stealthy" disciplines. Your friend can spend a couple rogue talents to pick up the Ninja's vanish trick as necessary as well.

[DMVerdandi]

Stalker is definitely a good sneaky option. They have an archtype that gets sneak attack and inspiration instead of deadly strike and ki if that's the feel you want, but it loses the Veiled Moon discipline. Consider getting it back with the Unorthodox Method trait.
For sneaking:
Body of the Night, (first level Steel Serpent stance) Gives bonus to hit and damage vs flatfooted opponents, and gives a bonus to Stealth equal to your ranks in Heal.
Lurker in Darkness (feat, requires 6 ranks in stealth) is a better version of Dampen Pressence. Basically anything that would automatically sense you with a non vision/hearing sense still has to make a perception check to do so.
Ghostwalk (3rd level Veiled Moon boost) You become incorporeal for 1 round, allowing you to bypass all sorts of mundane anti sneak measures like walls and traps.
Blend with the Night (6th level Steel Serpent boost) 1 round of greater invisibility

I believe it's the Vigilante[Archetype]...
But yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Vigilante Stalker is probably the gold standard to this type of build.

[Ellrin]

If you're willing to dip a level into cleric, you can ignore all of its spellcasting (e.g. by having not enough wisdom) but still get Channel Energy (which a cheap item can convert into more charges of ninja invis)

I know I've heard of this, but I can't remember what it's called and google is giving me lip. What item was it, again?


and the Deception subdomain (to get the mystic Ninja Log ability).

That's not a bad trick. I'll have to bring cleric up as a possible dip, though I'm afraid he'll be pretty stubborn about avoiding any levels in full spellcasting classes like that.


Kineticist(Aether) + VMC Rogue might fit the bill:
[snip]

I'll look into it, but I feel like that amount of flavor-bending might be more than my friend or the DM are completely comfortable with; and without the flavor-bending, while (Su) and (Sp) are on the table, I feel like it might be a bit more magical than my friend was really hoping for.


[stalker snip]

I had time to look at Steel Serpent again after my post, and I noticed the the stealth options are actually pretty decent. The stealth-boosting stances in particular might be enough to offset the penalty from Hellcat Stealth, but the fact that they're competence bonuses and therefore won't stack with most skill-boosting magic items is a bit of a downer. Still, my friend loves the idea of initiators, so I'm sure he'd be happy for an excuse to play one, and between the stalker arts that open up dex-to-damage melee and the first couple of requisite ranged feats, we might just be able to squeeze some sort of competent range+melee build out of one. Add in rogue talents (fast stealth), ninja tricks (vanishing trick), and investigator talents (unconventional inspiration), and you've got a lot of stealth potential, though it's looking pretty feat/art starved just typing this out. I'll have to look into whether there are any dips that might ease that load some.


I believe it's the Vigilante[Archetype]...
But yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Vigilante Stalker is probably the gold standard to this type of build.

While inspiration and investigator talents are definitely helpful for skillmonkeying, and I think my friend would appreciate the character being Int-based instead of Wis-based, I feel like a lot of potential in the stabby department is given up by losing the ki pool and associated stalker arts. The DM would probably be okay with adding them back in via stalker art -> rogue talent (ki pool) as a sort of homebrew bandage, but that's another stalker art down in an already art-starved build. I'll have to make work out some sample builds and see how things actually pan out.

Since the vigilante archetype trades out solar wind for tempest gale, I'll go ahead and ask here, before I go and read the disciplines for myself: what are the core differences between solar wind and tempest gale? From the briefest glance, it seems like solar wind has more elemental damage, but are there any other major differences between the two ranged disciplines?


The rogue has an archetype called the hidden blade (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-rogue-archetypes/hidden-blade-rogue-archetype) that uses maneuvers.

Yeah, I briefly glanced at that, as well. I'll have to recheck rogue talents and look into gambits, I've never actually looked at the warlord class before. Little strange that the PoW archetype for rogue doesn't get what I feel is probably the most archetypically roguish discipline, though, steel serpent.

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. Definitely given me some good reference points to start from.

[Elricaltovilla]

what are the core differences between solar wind and tempest gale?

Solar Wind is about elemental damage and designed to play nicer with the standard "machine gun" style of archery that regular 1st party archery feats support. Tempest Gale is more about sniping and trick shots with a lot of debuff options in it.


Little strange that the PoW archetype for rogue doesn't get what I feel is probably the most archetypically roguish discipline, though, steel serpent.


Fortunately there's a solution to that. You can use a trait called Unorthodox Method (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/traits/unorthodox-method-regional-any/) to swap one of your disciplines, or you can join the Martial Tradition Ordre des Repas Exotiques (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/martial-traditions/ordre-des-repas-exotiques/). Either one will let you swap out a discipline you have for the Steel Serpent Discipline.

From a design perspective however, the Hidden Blade is meant to be a "smuggler" or "trickster" and so his discipline options are tied to that theme, rather than "poison" like the Steel Serpent discipline focuses on.

[Castilonium]

Riven Hourglass Eternity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/riven-hourglass-eternity-combat/) at level 7. Now you can keep up powerful boosts like Ghostwalk and Blend with the Night all day! Especially if you play a class that can easily recover maneuvers like Zealot, Bushi, or Mystic. Stalkers aren't very good at recovering maneuvers.

[The Magister]

The Craven feat from Champions of Ruin is pretty nice. It comes with the stipulation that the character can't be immune to fear effects and it imposes a -2 penalty on saves against such effects, but it grants your sneak attacks 1 extra point of damage per character level. I completely overlooked it at first, but once I picked it up for my rogue, he became a straight-up death machine.

[Ellrin]

Solar Wind is about elemental damage and designed to play nicer with the standard "machine gun" style of archery that regular 1st party archery feats support. Tempest Gale is more about sniping and trick shots with a lot of debuff options in it.

Thanks again for the info. I'll see what he's more interested in the next time we talk.