If you were a Wizard...

[One Step Two]

So you would keep an eye out on humanity but keeping your distance? Or help some people out once in a while...

Yes to both! As I mentioned in my first post, I would try playing at the invisible hand to guide humanity. Powerful Divination spells and heightened intellect and skills for days means I can apply myself to pushing humanity along from afar after I've had my fun. Though admittedly, creating a spell to solve global warming or eliminate all the carbon on the atmosphere just to see how people react would be kinda fun! Other than that helping some people with my new powers is certainly something my current morality would indulge in, but I have no way of knowing if that would change if I attain the power of a 20th level wizard.

On typing this out, I realized I would totally act like the God-Emperor of Mankind did in the Warhammer 40K setting, hah. Can I trade my wizard levels for the as-written Erudite, with the Spell-to-Power variant please?

[AnonymousPepper]

Yes to both! As I mentioned in my first post, I would try playing at the invisible hand to guide humanity. Powerful Divination spells and heightened intellect and skills for days means I can apply myself to pushing humanity along from afar after I've had my fun. Though admittedly, creating a spell to solve global warming or eliminate all the carbon on the atmosphere just to see how people react would be kinda fun! Other than that helping some people with my new powers is certainly something my current morality would indulge in, but I have no way of knowing if that would change if I attain the power of a 20th level wizard.

On typing this out, I realized I would totally act like the God-Emperor of Mankind did in the Warhammer 40K setting, hah. Can I trade my wizard levels for the as-written Erudite, with the Spell-to-Power variant please?

Spell research or Wish says yes, and you'd probably fluff it as using Psychic Reformation as a template.

Thing you gotta remember is that, unopposed, with no plot to distract you, there is almost no difference between a Wizard 20 and a Wizard 20000 plus arbitrary ranks of any other class you want plus maximum divine ranks. You have NI time; immortality is not hard in 3.5e, and with that accomplished you can feel free to spend as much time as you want on a NI-to-1 time demiplane. Wish or True Creation can generate resources freely at only an initial cost to make the self-resetting trap; thus, you have NI resources, through any number of means. Negative level shenanigans means a net gain of XP and thus levels is possible, so your levels are NI. You are only a few followers away from divine ranks and therefore salient divine abilities (although that's a bit of a double edged sword in case you ever wanna visit Sigil because, being unstatted, the Lady of Pain will forever be outside of your reach, so far as I know). You have NI information thanks to NI skill ranks and NI divinations. You are literally impossible to kill - either effectively so due to no magical opposition, or you could go all the way by way of aleax shenanigans. And of course, your ability to effect change in the world is unlimited thanks to either messing around with time (why hello there at will persisted Time Stop) or minionmancy (i.e. simulacra).

The only things stopping a 3.5e wizard 20 from becoming literally omniscient and omnipotent in any D&D game are in-game opposition of equal or greater power level (a god or another wizard, mainly), the GM, and the player's own lack of system knowledge/ambition/competence/etc. You have none of these things in the real world, save some degrees of the latter.

Comparing a real-world wiz20 to the GEoM is an insult to the wizard (put it this way, while the Chaos Gods are unkillable, ain't nothin' stopping you from dropping a NI-DC Sanctify the Wicked on Slaanesh, which is, uh, not something Empy could dream of doing). Hell, you handily outclass whole reality-warping races like the (Halo) Precursors and the Culture; in relation to the latter, your power level is more on the level of the sublimed races, by yourself. The sorts of things that can beat you boil down to already-extant omnipotent deities if any and that's just about it. Aaaaand maybe Team Dai-Gurren simply because they specialize in doing the impossible.

Consider: there is absolutely nothing stopping you from going full Pun-Pun immediately.

[Calthropstu]

Consider: there is absolutely nothing stopping you from going full Pun-Pun immediately.

Which is why I brought up what I did earlier. Pun-Pun relies on a specific interpretation of the rules. And I doubt the universe would have that interpretation work. The gm does exist: It's the universe at large.

Pun-Pun is almost certainly unattainable. Understand too, that there are added dangers to consider. Let's say you DO have or somehow obtain the power of a lvl 20 wizard. Odds are you would break yourself trying to do what's in your post. You'd likely go mad. You'd forget things at the very least at crucial moments. Sure, maybe you'd set up some sort of "remind me" system, but you would eventually fail so hard that you would give up.

In short, you wouldn't succeed, even if it were possible.

[Tetsubo 57]

I'll take an immortal Pathfinder wizard please. I'd work from behind the scenes. I would benefit humanity while also making myself *very* comfortable.

[unseenmage]

Which is why I brought up what I did earlier. Pun-Pun relies on a specific interpretation of the rules. And I doubt the universe would have that interpretation work. The gm does exist: It's the universe at large.

Pun-Pun is almost certainly unattainable. Understand too, that there are added dangers to consider. Let's say you DO have or somehow obtain the power of a lvl 20 wizard. Odds are you would break yourself trying to do what's in your post. You'd likely go mad. You'd forget things at the very least at crucial moments. Sure, maybe you'd set up some sort of "remind me" system, but you would eventually fail so hard that you would give up.

In short, you wouldn't succeed, even if it were possible.
Why? What evidence do you have to make the above statements more than an opinion you're presenting in a fact-like manner?

I am assuming you meant the above as some sort of evidence based critique and not as a series of broad, and at some points borderline offensive, assumptions?

[Avigor]

If I could get away with using the Elven Generalist variant I would, as I'd hate to lose any colleges (not to mention, no scrolls means the extra spells would be OP); I'd also rather have Eidetic Memory than a familiar. In any case, I'd want to avoid people bugging me for magical help, while still providing some help here and there where it's the most important, so ideally the world will never know there is a wizard, just that some problems have mysteriously started resolving themselves, while at approximately the same time a random person happens to win the lottery and shares with his family, as such lottery winners tend to do; if, by some series of circumstances, they do figure out that there is a wizard, then they'll never know who that wizard is... or if they do somehow figure out his identity, they'll learn not to try and screw with him if they value their lives.

The big question is just how far would the power corrupt me... I'm not a sadist, but that doesn't mean I couldn't become apathetic over time...

[Calthropstu]

Why? What evidence do you have to make the above statements more than an opinion you're presenting in a fact-like manner?

I am assuming you meant the above as some sort of evidence based critique and not as a series of broad, and at some points borderline offensive, assumptions?

Think about it for a second. If such loopholes worked, the universe would have been obliterated long ago due to paradox. Any infinite loops that would allow pun-pun, or similar levels of power, would be contingent on bend and even breaking reality itself. Not outside the realm of possibility, but if such were possible, why has nothing done so already?

Also, pun-pun specific, you could really only apply powers that you knew could be applied. You would also need to be of a scaled race and somehow gain the race of the scaled ones... and since those don't exist in our universe, and since that ability doesn't exist in our universe... assuming that form is impossible.

Consider playing 3.5 in a setting specific universe: Real Universe. That's what you'd have access to with polymorph and shapechange. It makes our universe the campaign setting... with whatever controls our universe (if anything) the gm. If nothing does, the gm would be the universe itself.

So, considering all of this... pun-pun is impossible.

[Xar Zarath]

...The big question is just how far would the power corrupt me... I'm not a sadist, but that doesn't mean I couldn't become apathetic over time...

That is a possibility especially if you attain immortality. After a few centuries? you may not want to help anymore and just step back permanently.

What about the rest? Would such power eventually wear out your patience?

[rferries]

Chiming in!

1. Personal Duties
I'd definitely use magic to help my immediate friends and family, but in as subtle a way as possible. Wouldn't hesitate to use limited wish/wish to duplicate powerful divine healing spells for them if necessary, though.

2. Professional Duties
I'm a doctor, so I'd craft/wish for magic items to treat otherwise-incurable conditions, namely:

-cure minor wounds (for stabilising emergency patients)
-lesser restoration, remove blindness/deafness, remove disease (for HIV, even cancer too!), neutralise poison
-even heal (for psychiatry) and regeneration, if possible
-an item granting a competence bonus to Heal checks too, why not

Ideally the items would be slotless (disguised as tattoos?) or I'd otherwise have to swear my patients to secrecy. I'd want them to be unlimited uses/day, so it'd probably require multiple wishes to upgrade the base items. The XP cost would be worth it in the long run, though. Alternatively, I could do most of the crafting and conjure friendly outsiders to provide the relevant SLA's.

3. With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility
The toughest and most intimidating part... I would have a duty to improve the lives of all. One wizard alone can't create a Tippyverse, so I'd have to effect change by targeting world leaders.

Greater invisibility/shapechange into an invisible pixie/will o'wisp/etc, cast tongues, then start greater teleporting around the world to use charm monster/suggestion/dominate person on various world leaders that aren't serving the public good. Even if I used Extend Spell, I'd have to constantly be revisiting the targets to refresh the enchantments, or to start enchanting the next leaders if the originals are overthrown.

Alternatively, use bestow curse to make undesirable leaders permanently unelectable (e.g. curse them to become compulsive nudists during public speaking or somesuch, or better yet to suffer a constant zone of truth effect), or use a potential RAW interpretation of lesser geas that they should permanently pursue social democrat policies.

Permanencied symbols of persuasion could get a LOT done - would just need to install a few of them in houses of parliament etc around the world, to influence the votes of MPs/senators etc.

4. NO Immortality
I wouldn't want to live forever, simple as that.

[AnonymousPepper]

Think about it for a second. If such loopholes worked, the universe would have been obliterated long ago due to paradox. Any infinite loops that would allow pun-pun, or similar levels of power, would be contingent on bend and even breaking reality itself. Not outside the realm of possibility, but if such were possible, why has nothing done so already?

Also, pun-pun specific, you could really only apply powers that you knew could be applied. You would also need to be of a scaled race and somehow gain the race of the scaled ones... and since those don't exist in our universe, and since that ability doesn't exist in our universe... assuming that form is impossible.

Consider playing 3.5 in a setting specific universe: Real Universe. That's what you'd have access to with polymorph and shapechange. It makes our universe the campaign setting... with whatever controls our universe (if anything) the gm. If nothing does, the gm would be the universe itself.

So, considering all of this... pun-pun is impossible.

1. In-universe explanation: deities exist and are likely to smite you. Mystra would personally body somebody who tried to go Pun-Pun in the Realms. And then inexplicably die because Mystra.

2. Wish means that you could still absolutely turn into one, because Wish is friggin' broken like that.

[Andor13]

Chiming in!

4. NO Immortality
I wouldn't want to live forever, simple as that.

Extending lifespan? Sure. Irreversible immortality? There are just too many ways you might come to regret that.

[Segev]

Extending lifespan? Sure. Irreversible immortality? There are just too many ways you might come to regret that.

I have never understood this attitude.

I have heard and grasped the arguments, but they always seem so ... empty, to me. But, this probably isn't the place to debate the subject, which could get fairly morbid. Just wanted to say, "I disagree, fundamentally."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I have never understood this attitude.

I have heard and grasped the arguments, but they always seem so ... empty, to me. But, this probably isn't the place to debate the subject, which could get fairly morbid. Just wanted to say, "I disagree, fundamentally."Yeah, especially when you have magic that can ensure that all of the arguments against immortality are rendered null and void.

Dead loved ones? No longer an issue.

Ennui? No longer an issue.

Watching the world going by, leaving you behind? No longer an issue.

Overpopulation because nobody dies because everyone's immortal? No longer an issue.

Etc. etc. etc.

[rferries]

Extending lifespan? Sure. Irreversible immortality? There are just too many ways you might come to regret that.

Indeed!


I have never understood this attitude.

I have heard and grasped the arguments, but they always seem so ... empty, to me. But, this probably isn't the place to debate the subject, which could get fairly morbid. Just wanted to say, "I disagree, fundamentally."


Yeah, especially when you have magic that can ensure that all of the arguments against immortality are rendered null and void.

Dead loved ones? No longer an issue.

Ennui? No longer an issue.

Watching the world going by, leaving you behind? No longer an issue.

Overpopulation because nobody dies because everyone's immortal? No longer an issue.

Etc. etc. etc.

Eternity is a very long time. A 20th-level immortal wizard can do anything - even create his own planes via genesis (after the heat death of each prior universe), but what happens when you have finally and literally seen and done everything? When you've made your loved ones immortal too, but have grown sick of them (or you and they have changed so much over the eons that you no longer love each other)? The only way I can see immortality being tolerable is if you cast an enchantment on yourself to make it seem tolerable - and then you've effectively killed your old mind anyways.

Sure, maybe have a "snooze button" where you can keep adding more time to your lifespan in finite amounts, but I'd always want to have the option of stopping sometime.

[Segev]

Eternity is a very long time. A 20th-level immortal wizard can do anything - even create his own planes via genesis (after the heat death of each prior universe), but what happens when you have finally and literally seen and done everything? When you've made your loved ones immortal too, but have grown sick of them (or you and they have changed so much over the eons that you no longer love each other)? The only way I can see immortality being tolerable is if you cast an enchantment on yourself to make it seem tolerable - and then you've effectively killed your old mind anyways.

Sure, maybe have a "snooze button" where you can keep adding more time to your lifespan in finite amounts, but I'd always want to have the option of stopping sometime.

You can make anything. You can make planes of anything. You have all your loved ones and friends and their friends and loved ones and...really, almost no excuse not to have practically everyone sticking around.

The ingenuity to create is as boundless as the number of people. Boredom will only happen if you set out for it to.

And ... well, don't become sick of your friends and loved ones. The notion that this is inevitable flies in the face of the very nature of humanity. People only grow apart when they pull themselves apart. Yes, it can take effort to maintain some relationships, but the closer you are the easier it is. And if you do "grow sick" of them, separate. You can make new friends wherever you choose to go. Possibly literally.

[Andor13]

Yeah, especially when you have magic that can ensure that all of the arguments against immortality are rendered null and void.

Dead loved ones? No longer an issue.

Ennui? No longer an issue.

Watching the world going by, leaving you behind? No longer an issue.

Overpopulation because nobody dies because everyone's immortal? No longer an issue.

Etc. etc. etc.

I'm not sure how D&D Wizard magic solves any of those problems. You can bring back the dead, true. If they want to come back. Until they age out, then you need to reincarnate them, in which case they might not really be the same person anymore.

I'm unfamiliar with the "Cure Ennui" spell.

So, in 200 years when verbal speech is a forgotten historical relic you're going to be willing to go under the knife and let them implant the radio-telepathy implants so you can converse with people? Even if the divinations are unclear on if that will mess up your spellcasting? Or in 12 million years, when none of the seven successor species of humanity retain the concept of individuality you're going to be willing to join one of the group minds?

Really not following you on this one, are you sterilizing all of humanity, or just keeping immortality to yourself?

[Segev]

I'm not sure how D&D Wizard magic solves any of those problems. You can bring back the dead, true. If they want to come back. Until they age out, then you need to reincarnate them, in which case they might not really be the same person anymore.

I'm unfamiliar with the "Cure Ennui" spell.

So, in 200 years when verbal speech is a forgotten historical relic you're going to be willing to go under the knife and let them implant the radio-telepathy implants so you can converse with people? Even if the divinations are unclear on if that will mess up your spellcasting? Or in 12 million years, when none of the seven successor species of humanity retain the concept of individuality you're going to be willing to join one of the group minds?

Really not following you on this one, are you sterilizing all of humanity, or just keeping immortality to yourself?

Not following what makes you think that you can't share immortality, or that if you DO share it, it is inevitable that you'll be left lonely and alone as every other immortal decides they don't want to do things the way you still want to.

It seems like your arguments require simultaneously no other immortals and everybody else also being immortal to create the miserable circumstances you outline.

Or, rather, you insinuate that the problem arises unless you keep it to yourself, but all the problems you list seem solved by having other immortals of or around your generation.

The "cure ennui" spell is called "getting a life." With infinite time and magic to cure literal physiological causes of mental infirmities (e.g. clinical depression), that's not the callous response it might be IRL to somebody suffering ennui in our current circumstances.

So those "seven successor species" are still able to interact with not just you, but all your fellow humans going back to your generation. Telepathic bond is something you've probably already perfected as a preferred means of communication before the radio implants even happen, and researching a "Machine Interface" spell to let you do anything the neural-linked can do is hardly beyond the power of a 20+ level wizard. Even if there is, for some reason, literally no way to come up with a level 9 or lower spell to do it, I bet somebody on this forum could use the Epic Spell system to write a spell to do just that.

All these "problems" are trivially overcome in comparison to things you're doing every Tuesday night as part of the weekly dungeon crawl you and your friends throw for fun. Because you can make demiplanes, so of course you are.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm not sure how D&D Wizard magic solves any of those problems. You can bring back the dead, true. If they want to come back. Until they age out, then you need to reincarnate them, in which case they might not really be the same person anymore.It's easy in 3.X to make yourself and others immortal. There are so many ways I don't think it's even possible to list them all. Just as one of the more popular examples, storing your bodies on a timeless demiplane and using astral projection to interact with the world.


I'm unfamiliar with the "Cure Ennui" spell.That's pretty easy. Just make yourself unable to feel boredom. As I mentioned in my post, I'd be making a few minor alterations to my personality, one of which involves using mindrape and maybe psychic chirurgery to make it impossible for me to feel bored or depressed (the former of which only occurs when I suffer from the latter, for me). It's only a matter of keeping your testosterone, dopamine, and serotonin high and in balance, from what I've read and experienced. That, and by preventing toxic crap from messing with your hormonal balance. Easily done with magic.


So, in 200 years when verbal speech is a forgotten historical relic you're going to be willing to go under the knife and let them implant the radio-telepathy implants so you can converse with people? Even if the divinations are unclear on if that will mess up your spellcasting? Or in 12 million years, when none of the seven successor species of humanity retain the concept of individuality you're going to be willing to join one of the group minds?Real telepathy is a thing, very doable with magic. And if humanity becomes the Borg, that's the point where you should probably start over elsewhere, or possibly destroy it. Because the Borg are an abomination.

High level wizards (especially at levels 20+) have a stupidly powerful and versatile toolset. If you can't solve a problem with magic, skills, feats, intelligence, and creativity, you're not trying hard enough.


Really not following you on this one, are you sterilizing all of humanity, or just keeping immortality to yourself?Nope. If the Earth becomes overpopulated to the point where it becomes a major issue, you've got an entire universe to explore. And if that threatens to become too small, branch out into the multiverse. And if that starts becoming an issue, I'd have the power to create new ones. Basically, no matter how much the problem escalates, I could escalate more to fix it.

[Andor13]

Not following what makes you think that you can't share immortality, or that if you DO share it, it is inevitable that you'll be left lonely and alone as every other immortal decides they don't want to do things the way you still want to.

It seems like your arguments require simultaneously no other immortals and everybody else also being immortal to create the miserable circumstances you outline.

Or, rather, you insinuate that the problem arises unless you keep it to yourself, but all the problems you list seem solved by having other immortals of or around your generation.

I'm not following you. How does keeping a pool of your current friends around as buddies solve the problem of being left behind by an evolving humanity? It seems quite the opposite to me.

I mean first, how are you handing out immortality like candy? There aren't a lot of ways to do it that I know of besides sequestering someone in a timeless demi-plane or making them undead, both of which have obvious issues.

The problems with immortality, in the long run, have very little to do with loneliness. They have to do with change. You will change, the world will change, humanity will change. Immortality with no escape button? So 10 billion years from now, when the earth and the rest of the Solar System are long since reduced to ash by the Sun's Red Giant phase, when you have been to every inhabited star system in the galaxy. When you have watched stars be born and die. When you have reached the limits of what your mind could grasp even with +11 to all your stats, and then remade yourself to learn more, and then done it again, and again, and again. When you have made, and lived in a 10,000 utopias, and wallowed in hells of your own making for millions of years, are you sure things will seem fresh and there will be plenty of new things to do? In 100 billion years, when the galaxy itself is starting to dim, when you have tired of all the various art forms you invented to mold continents into amusing shapes by manipulating tectonic forces over millions of years, when you've had to reinvent organic life for the 1000th time, there will still be plenty to do? In a trillion years, when the last of the Dyson spheres huddled around their dying stars have gone dark, and the furthest galaxies are flickering embers, are you sure your Friday night dungeon crawls will still appeal? And 100 trillion years past that, when there are no atoms remaining in the observable universe that you didn't make yourself, are you sure you won't want to have even the option to check out?

[Andor13]

Nope. If the Earth becomes overpopulated to the point where it becomes a major issue, you've got an entire universe to explore. And if that threatens to become too small, branch out into the multiverse. And if that starts becoming an issue, I'd have the power to create new ones. Basically, no matter how much the problem escalates, I could escalate more to fix it.

Ah. So you didn't mean it's not a problem. You mean it's just not a problem for you. True enough, if you're callous enough.

[Quertus]

Wow, this thread took a cool turn!

On immortality...

Let's say I like playing Magic the Gathering. Let's say I make immortal some number of friends who also like playing MtG.

A million years from now, will they still want to play MtG? Will I? I'm pretty sure that, for most people, the answer would be "no" - especially if, say, there hadn't been a new release in many hundred thousands of years.

But that's fine - people learn and grow and can develop new interests. But there's no guarantee that we'd develop the same interests. Assuming any non-zero possibility of developing different interests, over an infinite timeframe, there's a 100% chance of this happening.

So, what? I'd need friends who I know can maintain many interests, and who I can remain friends with even for extended periods of sharing few - or none? Or the ability to make new friends?

What about "political" opinions? Do I need to also choose people whom I can remain friends with even we disagree about what level of Borg is acceptable for humanity to reach? Or the ability to make new friends (who are increasingly alien)?

For me, it's not as bad as I imagine it would be for most. When I first heard the Queen song with the lyrics "who wants to live forever... Who cares to love forever... When love must die", I immediately responded, "me". Because, even - especially - if that which I love must die, I want to carry the memory of it forever. Heck, as much as I'd otherwise hate the concept, I'd volunteer for Borgification just to upload the memories of that which I love to the collective consciousness. How much more so would I not desire to use magic to keep those memories alive forever?

However.

Eventually, we learn everything there is to know about tic tac toe, and it's no longer fun for us. Even sudoku is not immune to being outgrown through mastery. So, if we grow and learn, we must adapt. But once we've lived through the heat death of every single "what if" universe that we or any other human ever born to this or any of those "what if" universes can imagine, what then?

A simulacrum does not grow. A simulacrum of me could happily live forever with a simulacrum of one or more of my friends. But real people, capable of growth and change, living forever without Mindrape or other memory modification?

It's a nontrivial problem, even for a Wizard.


I'm unfamiliar with the "Cure Ennui" spell.

Mindrape. Amazing just how few things it cannot cure.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ah. So you didn't mean it's not a problem. You mean it's just not a problem for you. True enough, if you're callous enough.Callous how? I mean, you can offer immortality to everyone, if you want to. It's not even hard. Just use a repeating polymorph any object trap to turn everyone into an elan of themselves, or something.

I mean, if you think not rendering everyone permanently sterile is callous, then I guess you have a point. Or something.

[Kalkra]

All of this is assuming that living for such a long time won't drive you insane. I mean, the human brain isn't meant to accommodate hundreds of year of memories, to say nothing of thousands. Honestly, I can't imagine living that long and not getting messed up, although I suppose that if you PAO yourself into somehting that naturally lives that long (i.e. a dragon or an outsider) then your mind will change to accommodate it. I certainly hope so anyway, because mindraping yourself is just asking for trouble.

[Andor13]

Overpopulation because nobody dies because everyone's immortal? No longer an issue.


Nope. If the Earth becomes overpopulated to the point where it becomes a major issue, you've got an entire universe to explore. And if that threatens to become too small, branch out into the multiverse. And if that starts becoming an issue, I'd have the power to create new ones. Basically, no matter how much the problem escalates, I could escalate more to fix it.


Callous how? I mean, you can offer immortality to everyone, if you want to. It's not even hard. Just use a repeating polymorph any object trap to turn everyone into an elan of themselves, or something.

I mean, if you think not rendering everyone permanently sterile is callous, then I guess you have a point. Or something.

Your original two posts state that overpopulation due to immortality isn't a problem, because you can leave. That's callous.

Doing it by turning people into Elan solves the overpopulation issue, by sterilizing the immortals, (you should remove that "not" btw) although I don't think you've seriously considered the issues with that. Logistics, at a dead minimum, impose some hard limits on how rapidly you could 'process' people into Elans. And of course there is the fact that Elans retain very little of their former selves. And if you didn't make conversion mandatory you'ld have the worst of both worlds. But then, of course, you've exterminated humanity.


Mindrape. Amazing just how few things it cannot cure.

Mindrape, as someone already mentioned, is merely a selective, partial suicide. I'm not sure "I kill myself only a little bit at a time" is a great way to approach immortality.

[Nifft]

Your original two posts state that overpopulation due to immortality isn't a problem, because you can leave. That's callous.

I thought he was creating new universes so everyone had the option to leave.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I thought he was creating new universes so everyone had the option to leave.Double-plus+. This is correct.


Your original two posts state that overpopulation due to immortality isn't a problem, because you can leave. That's callous.Everyone can leave. Or just the people who don't want to stay.


Doing it by turning people into Elan solves the overpopulation issue, by sterilizing the immortals, (you should remove that "not" btw) although I don't think you've seriously considered the issues with that. Logistics, at a dead minimum, impose some hard limits on how rapidly you could 'process' people into Elans. And of course there is the fact that Elans retain very little of their former selves. And if you didn't make conversion mandatory you'ld have the worst of both worlds. But then, of course, you've exterminated humanity.People who undergo a ritual to become elan do. Those who become elan via permanent polymorph, no. They stay the same mentally, as evidenced by their retention of class levels, alignment, and mental stats.


Mindrape, as someone already mentioned, is merely a selective, partial suicide. I'm not sure "I kill myself only a little bit at a time" is a great way to approach immortality.No more than intensive therapy would, just on a very short timescale. Unless the rewrite was extremely extensive. But just to make a few very minor adjustments to retain sanity in the long run? Not really, no.

[Quertus]

Mindrape, as someone already mentioned, is merely a selective, partial suicide. I'm not sure "I kill myself only a little bit at a time" is a great way to approach immortality.

Missed that, but disagree (somewhat) anyway.

People learn and grow and change - and not always in advantageous or expected ways.

Mindrape merely allows one control over that process. Someone spoiled the ending? Mindrape to the rescue! Want to experience something for the first time again? Mindrape. Discovered that you no longer enjoy your favorite pastime? You guessed it, Mindrape.

Now, personally, I'd prefer being able to inhabit multiple bodies simultaneously, having semi-compartmentalized memories, etc etc, to keep things fresh. But Mindrape seems like it would do in a pinch / while I research better spells.

[Andor13]

Missed that, but disagree (somewhat) anyway.

People learn and grow and change - and not always in advantageous or expected ways.

Mindrape merely allows one control over that process. Someone spoiled the ending? Mindrape to the rescue! Want to experience something for the first time again? Mindrape. Discovered that you no longer enjoy your favorite pastime? You guessed it, Mindrape.

Now, personally, I'd prefer being able to inhabit multiple bodies simultaneously, having semi-compartmentalized memories, etc etc, to keep things fresh. But Mindrape seems like it would do in a pinch / while I research better spells.

People = Genes + environment. Your memories are the bulk of who you are as a person, particularly when shape changing magic comes into the equation. To edit them is to kill yourself and make a new person who may or may not be similar to who you were.

Plus that spell is really not designed to be cast on yourself, nor it there any reason to think it's a pleasant process (It's not from the Book of Warm Fuzzy Hugs after all.) If it was not a horrific experience I suspect it would lead to a slippery slope situation where you'ld wind up erasing all your unpleasant memories and turning yourself into a monster and/or an imbecile.

You would certainly want to run some divinations first.

Really, I'm not even sure why this is worthy of discussion. The question is Irrevocable Immortality, or Immortality with an option to die. To pick option one is to say that you now, have better judgement than the stupid dolt you'll grow to become in a million (or billion, or trillion) years. That nothing you ever learn, or experience could possibly change your judgement on the most fundamental of all possible matters. It's like saying "Well 8 year old me was completely right when he said I should never eat anything but chocolate chip cookies, and that girls are icky. I have never regretted either of those positions. Similarly less-than-a-century old me is just as wise and learned as millennium-old me (or billion year old me) and I will never think that this was the choice of a foolish youth."



Double-plus+. This is correct.

Everyone can leave. Or just the people who don't want to stay.

That's not even remotely possible. I'm not going to run the math, but if you spent every hour of every day creating, expanding and renewing (They decay after all, unless you spend XP, which is an even harder limiting factor) demi-planes I don't think you can house even 0.01% of the current human population. Actually your spell slots are a bigger limiting factor than your time, so I guess you'll get to eat and play x-box after spending all your high level slots on demi-planes few a few thousand.

The biggest limiting factor in all these thought experiments is that there is just one of you. You could make simulacrums I suppose, but they cost XP too, and are capped at 10th level, so not much help with the higher level slots.

And there is no certainty that you will have alternate prime planes available. The OP conjecture is about a single person being granted 20th level Wizard powers, there's nothing there about the nature of reality being changed to D&D cosmology. That's why you want to do a whole bunch of divinations before firming up your plans.

[Segev]

The biggest reason to go for “irrevocable” immortality is the fear that somebody else could implement your revocation process against your will.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Fast time demiplane via genesis at a 101,000,000:1 time dilation. Place a repeating trap of genesis on the demiplane. Within nanoseconds, it's vastly larger than the size of the solar system. In a few seconds, it's the size of the galaxy. In very little time, it's the size of the observable universe.

Start terraforming with plants and animals to start up a reasonably solid ecosystem, with enough soil, water, air, warmth, and light to ensure the place is survivable to the things you add, and you're good to go.

[Andor13]

The biggest reason to go for “irrevocable” immortality is the fear that somebody else could implement your revocation process against your will.

If someone could overcome every safeguard I put into place as a 20th level wizard, I would be more afraid that could also strap me into a chair robot chicken style and make me watch every first grade school play ever, plus Full House and Joanie Loves Cachie, for a million years.

[ezekielraiden]

Bit late to the party on the thread and its more political connotations, but...

I'd definitely do what I could to help the world. I'd help my local friends, family, and associates first: they're the ones who I know the most about, and who I can most easily give wanted help to. From there, I'd try to be strategic. Even a max-level Wizard can't do everything, at least not all at once. Once the basic stuff is out of the way--creating decanters of endless water to solve drought and potable water problems, reusable food-generating items, high-level healing stuff--I'd start thinking long-term. Probably a lot of time spent doing Divinations and other fact-finding. Even if I'm the only person who will ever use magic, and even if no spells of resurrection work in our universe AND I have a finite lifespan, I can go a hell of a long way toward making the world a safer, happier, better place.

I won't dedicate every single waking moment to it. I would still want to live a life and enjoy myself. But with magical aid, I can probably solve most of the world's big problems within 20 years. I can leave a legacy worth remembering. It won't make everything better (people will still have foibles!), but generating a mostly post-scarcity society would sure feel nice.

As to why? Because my values and my faith both say it's the right thing to do. And even my all-too-human flaws tell me it's the right thing to do: everyone will love me and want to be my friend. And since I'll have no lack for literally any material goods, and (over time) the ability to craft effectively anything I could ever want...yeah, sounds like a pretty sweet deal. Especially since I can charge the rich for ridiculous fancy bull****, while helping the poor, sick, and hungry. Even *without* being Catholic, I'd probably be canonized after my death.

[Xar Zarath]

...As to why? Because my values and my faith both say it's the right thing to do. And even my all-too-human flaws tell me it's the right thing to do: everyone will love me and want to be my friend. And since I'll have no lack for literally any material goods, and (over time) the ability to craft effectively anything I could ever want...yeah, sounds like a pretty sweet deal. Especially since I can charge the rich for ridiculous fancy bull****, while helping the poor, sick, and hungry. Even *without* being Catholic, I'd probably be canonized after my death.

Hmm or you could be target no 1 for every powerful organisation out there eager to get a piece of you to replicate whatever they can. Not necessarily that they are able to do so but the whole men in black thing really doesn't go away, especially when we're talking about someone with such quantifiable and proven power doing miraculous things.


On the subject of immortality, I probably would want it, maybe Pathfinder's interpretation of lichdom but with 3.5e version of the demilich. After a few centuries in such a state, I probably wouldn't be anything remotely human anymore and seek out a greater evolution among the planes. Then I would probably disappear to seek out my own destiny.

But I wouldn't want to chase lichdom so soon. Maybe after a few decades or maybe a century or so in, with clones and astral projection to keep myself going in between the time.

[Quertus]

People = Genes + environment. Your memories are the bulk of who you are as a person, particularly when shape changing magic comes into the equation. To edit them is to kill yourself and make a new person who may or may not be similar to who you were.

Plus that spell is really not designed to be cast on yourself, nor it there any reason to think it's a pleasant process (It's not from the Book of Warm Fuzzy Hugs after all.) If it was not a horrific experience I suspect it would lead to a slippery slope situation where you'ld wind up erasing all your unpleasant memories and turning yourself into a monster and/or an imbecile.

You would certainly want to run some divinations first.

Really, I'm not even sure why this is worthy of discussion. The question is Irrevocable Immortality, or Immortality with an option to die. To pick option one is to say that you now, have better judgement than the stupid dolt you'll grow to become in a million (or billion, or trillion) years. That nothing you ever learn, or experience could possibly change your judgement on the most fundamental of all possible matters. It's like saying "Well 8 year old me was completely right when he said I should never eat anything but chocolate chip cookies, and that girls are icky. I have never regretted either of those positions. Similarly less-than-a-century old me is just as wise and learned as millennium-old me (or billion year old me) and I will never think that this was the choice of a foolish youth."


The biggest reason to go for “irrevocable” immortality is the fear that somebody else could implement your revocation process against your will.

So, I'm actually curious how one implements “irrevocable” immortality in 3e. :smallconfused:

-----

I find the notion of immortality quite interesting to discuss. As with most things, few people actually think through the full ramifications and drawbacks.

Now, one could easily argue the same thing about Mindrape. Some of the above ideas are worth discussing; some are not. Mindrape being "unpleasant", for example, is not.

People = genes + environment? That's worth discussing.

Despite my willingness to Mindrape myself, I'm actually better suited to PaO or Transhumanity than most people. I view myself as my data + my algorithms, my knowledge + my personality. You'll note that my physical form doesn't really figure into that.

So why am I not horrified at the prospect of editing my own memories?

I can accept selectively editing my memories and personality because I'm already aware that I die and am reborn every moment. The me I am now is not the same as the me from my youth who would never kill, even in self defense. And, in fact, is different from the me who had not read these posts last night.

But, again, as amazing and surgical as it is, Mindrape is a crude tool compared to what I'd want to use to sustain immortality. I would want to have compartmentalized memories, to be able, on a whim, to selectively remember (and selectively forget) the entirety of my immortal existence. Huh. It's actually rather difficult to explain what I'd really want. Let me try again.

I'd want to be able to inhabit multiple bodies simultaneously. In any given body, I'd likely want to suppress the memories of piloting the other bodies, so I didn't reflexively attempt to catch myself with a tail I didn't have, for example. I may want to suppress memories of having watched a particular movie, so that body can watch it for the first time. I may want to suppress memories to have the experience of my first kiss repeatedly.

But I wouldn't want memories to ever be truly lost. Quite the opposite, in fact. I'd love being able to review exactly how I felt about something throughout different points of my existence. Personally, I'm not so much about erasing the unpleasant, as I am about wanting to review it at the proper time, rather than dwell on exclusively the good or exclusively the bad.

So, yes, just in order to retain the memories of immortality, I'd become quite the inhuman monster - or, rather, remain quite the inhuman being, and become quite the un-me being. The ability to cycle through memories is, if anything, an attempt - perhaps misguided - to cling to my humanity remain closer to my current self throughout the process.

Now, is this the foolishness of an 8-year-old who wants to only eat cookies, that will stunt my evolution? That's a very interesting question. Personally, before seeing the results of divisions, I'd argue that it's prudence - I've got forever, so who cares how long the journey takes? Better to stave off Ennui and ensure that we get there eventually, then to die trying to get there faster.

[Segev]

If someone could overcome every safeguard I put into place as a 20th level wizard, I would be more afraid that could also strap me into a chair robot chicken style and make me watch every first grade school play ever, plus Full House and Joanie Loves Cachie, for a million years.

The difference is that the ability to overcome your safeguards once and kill you is a lot harder to recover from than the ability to tie you down and make you watch the Star Wars Christmas Special over and over again. In the latter case, you're able to keep working on a solution. In the former...it's done. Over.


Now, it's been pointed out that "irrevocable" immortality in D&D isn't really all that more realistic than non-irrevocable. In essence, anything you can come up with to make it stick can also be overcome with enough effort. So maybe this discussion is moot.

I think we can all agree that we'd like to render ourselves as invulnerable to external harm as possible, and extend our lives arbitrarily. What we're really arguing over is whether we think, at some point in the future, however far off, we might decide, "Eh, I've had a good run; time to pass on." Some of us doubt that. Others think it inevitable. Really, it's a sophistic point that's even less important than most things we argue about on this forum.



Personally, I would not want to forget anything. I'd want my memories perfectly accessible at any time. I would also want to have the emotional self-control to master the reactions, handle the pains and enjoy the pleasures without getting lost in either. I have always been of the opinion that there is NOTHING one should not wish to know the truth of. One should simply also want the mental, spiritual, emotional, or whatever kind of fortitude needed to handle it and use that knowledge to make things better.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The difference is that the ability to overcome your safeguards once and kill you is a lot harder to recover from than the ability to tie you down and make you watch the Star Wars Christmas Special over and over again. In the latter case, you're able to keep working on a solution. In the former...it's done. Over.

Now, it's been pointed out that "irrevocable" immortality in D&D isn't really all that more realistic than non-irrevocable. In essence, anything you can come up with to make it stick can also be overcome with enough effort. So maybe this discussion is moot.

I think we can all agree that we'd like to render ourselves as invulnerable to external harm as possible, and extend our lives arbitrarily. What we're really arguing over is whether we think, at some point in the future, however far off, we might decide, "Eh, I've had a good run; time to pass on." Some of us doubt that. Others think it inevitable. Really, it's a sophistic point that's even less important than most things we argue about on this forum.

Personally, I would not want to forget anything. I'd want my memories perfectly accessible at any time. I would also want to have the emotional self-control to master the reactions, handle the pains and enjoy the pleasures without getting lost in either. I have always been of the opinion that there is NOTHING one should not wish to know the truth of. One should simply also want the mental, spiritual, emotional, or whatever kind of fortitude needed to handle it and use that knowledge to make things better.This forum seriously needs a +Like button.

[Quertus]

I think we can all agree that we'd like to render ourselves as invulnerable to external harm as possible, and extend our lives arbitrarily. What we're really arguing over is whether we think, at some point in the future, however far off, we might decide, "Eh, I've had a good run; time to pass on." Some of us doubt that. Others think it inevitable. Really, it's a sophistic point that's even less important than most things we argue about on this forum.

Personally, I would not want to forget anything. I'd want my memories perfectly accessible at any time. I would also want to have the emotional self-control to master the reactions, handle the pains and enjoy the pleasures without getting lost in either. I have always been of the opinion that there is NOTHING one should not wish to know the truth of. One should simply also want the mental, spiritual, emotional, or whatever kind of fortitude needed to handle it and use that knowledge to make things better.

I would like to point out that I don't disagree on any specific point of what you just said, but that I come at it from a completely different point of view. Well, ok, I may disagree about it being less important - if Transhumanity is a possibility, then this may actually be among the most important things that the forum has ever discussed!

That aside, how is it that I am I saying almost the same thing? Well, let me tell an abbreviated version of one of my usual rambling stories. See, I kinda noticed that I reacted unexpectedly favorably to a number of things, such as huge transport beasts in certain videogames, and never understood why. Until, one day, my mother reminded me of a memory I had consciously forgotten - when I was little, I rode an elephant!

I come at this discussion from the PoV of someone who realizes that he already does not have conscious access to all of his memories all of the time. Always having conscious access to all of my memories would represent a change in who I am, whereas only accessing a limited subset at any given time represents maintaining the status quo.

As such, I view partitioning off my memories, and only accessing a human-sized chunk at a time to involve the least change to who I am.

I question just what I might evolve into if I modify myself to be able to comprehend the infinite, to truly not forget anything.

[Andor13]

So, I'm actually curious how one implements “irrevocable” immortality in 3e. :smallconfused:

-----

I find the notion of immortality quite interesting to discuss. As with most things, few people actually think through the full ramifications and drawbacks.

Now, one could easily argue the same thing about Mindrape. Some of the above ideas are worth discussing; some are not. Mindrape being "unpleasant", for example, is not.

No? If you were offered immortality, but the price was that every 10 years you had to undergo a month of hideous torture, how many decades do you think the pain would be worth?


People = genes + environment? That's worth discussing.

Despite my willingness to Mindrape myself, I'm actually better suited to PaO or Transhumanity than most people. I view myself as my data + my algorithms, my knowledge + my personality. You'll note that my physical form doesn't really figure into that.

So why am I not horrified at the prospect of editing my own memories?

I can accept selectively editing my memories and personality because I'm already aware that I die and am reborn every moment. The me I am now is not the same as the me from my youth who would never kill, even in self defense. And, in fact, is different from the me who had not read these posts last night.

Change, yes, but not death and rebirth. Life is a process. Thought, like music, only exists distributed across time. At any particular frozen instant someone could take you (or me) apart atom by atom and sum you up, totally, and correctly, in a book. (A really, really big book.) But they wouldn't be able to tell what you are thinking. The only way to know would be to put you back together, restart the clock and ask you. (Or use magic, I suppose.)

The fear of mindrape might be a personal foible I suppose, as someone who once had an eidetic memory, and now has what I regard as a fairly poor one, I have a particular horror of memory decay.


But, again, as amazing and surgical as it is, Mindrape is a crude tool compared to what I'd want to use to sustain immortality. I would want to have compartmentalized memories, to be able, on a whim, to selectively remember (and selectively forget) the entirety of my immortal existence. Huh. It's actually rather difficult to explain what I'd really want. Let me try again.

I'd want to be able to inhabit multiple bodies simultaneously. In any given body, I'd likely want to suppress the memories of piloting the other bodies, so I didn't reflexively attempt to catch myself with a tail I didn't have, for example. I may want to suppress memories of having watched a particular movie, so that body can watch it for the first time. I may want to suppress memories to have the experience of my first kiss repeatedly.

But I wouldn't want memories to ever be truly lost. Quite the opposite, in fact. I'd love being able to review exactly how I felt about something throughout different points of my existence. Personally, I'm not so much about erasing the unpleasant, as I am about wanting to review it at the proper time, rather than dwell on exclusively the good or exclusively the bad.

So, yes, just in order to retain the memories of immortality, I'd become quite the inhuman monster - or, rather, remain quite the inhuman being, and become quite the un-me being. The ability to cycle through memories is, if anything, an attempt - perhaps misguided - to cling to my humanity remain closer to my current self throughout the process.

Now, is this the foolishness of an 8-year-old who wants to only eat cookies, that will stunt my evolution? That's a very interesting question. Personally, before seeing the results of divisions, I'd argue that it's prudence - I've got forever, so who cares how long the journey takes? Better to stave off Ennui and ensure that we get there eventually, then to die trying to get there faster.

Eh. I grasp what you're saying, and it's not particularly inhuman. Our brains work in similar ways by default. You'ld just be amplifying the process and making it more subject to conscious control. Of course, wizarding may make it impossible. After all, if you can cast spells like Astral projection or Magic Jar, then you clearly must have a soul, and a mind outside the limits of your physical existence. So even if Cartesian Duality was so much nonsense before Mxyzptlk gave you 20th level Wizard powers, it isn't now. So in gaining your spells you may also have acquired a unique limitation.

[Segev]

No? If you were offered immortality, but the price was that every 10 years you had to undergo a month of hideous torture, how many decades do you think the pain would be worth?


Interesting question. Too few variables known to be sure; is the torture over, and your body fully functional, after the month, for example?

I mean, I went to school for 12 years, so I obviously can endure a long-term torture regimen... ;P

More seriously, this is literally unanswerable because it'll be very personal, subjective, and will require more information. It's obviously worth less if you have to heal "naturally" from the torture each time, especially if it does potentially-permanent damage. One might argue that the torture lasts more than a month, though, in that case.

Heck, if the "torture" was just having to diet and exercise in some sort of harsh and intense regimen, I'm not sure I could do it without somebody essentially pushing me the whole way, because I sure can't bring myself to do that now, and I'd love to have a nicer-looking body with less fat on it. ^^;

[Andor13]

Heck, if the "torture" was just having to diet and exercise in some sort of harsh and intense regimen, I'm not sure I could do it without somebody essentially pushing me the whole way, because I sure can't bring myself to do that now, and I'd love to have a nicer-looking body with less fat on it. ^^;

Ha! That's a good point. We do actually have one known life extension regime verified by science, the calorie restriction diet. I only know one person who actually follows it however. (He decided rather than counting calories to do it the way we do it with lab rats, and just eats every other day.) Anyone else know anyone following the one known life extension technique?

[Segev]

Ha! That's a good point. We do actually have one known life extension regime verified by science, the calorie restriction diet. I only know one person who actually follows it however. (He decided rather than counting calories to do it the way we do it with lab rats, and just eats every other day.) Anyone else know anyone following the one known life extension technique?

Godlings, the low-blood-sugar headaches I'd suffer if I skipped eating for a full day. x_x

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Godlings, the low-blood-sugar headaches I'd suffer if I skipped eating for a full day. x_xRight. I have to eat regularly or I get SO sick.

[Eldonauran]

Ha! That's a good point. We do actually have one known life extension regime verified by science, the calorie restriction diet. I only know one person who actually follows it however. (He decided rather than counting calories to do it the way we do it with lab rats, and just eats every other day.) Anyone else know anyone following the one known life extension technique?That is a very "interesting" finding/study. Turns out that fasting has health benefits. Who knew? :smallwink:

[Andor13]

Godlings, the low-blood-sugar headaches I'd suffer if I skipped eating for a full day. x_x


Right. I have to eat regularly or I get SO sick.

He reported "An adaptation period." :smallbiggrin:

He also keeps a bowl of chocolates on his desk for students. I question my ability watch someone eat chocolate while I fasted.

[unseenmage]

Ha! That's a good point. We do actually have one known life extension regime verified by science, the calorie restriction diet. I only know one person who actually follows it however. (He decided rather than counting calories to do it the way we do it with lab rats, and just eats every other day.) Anyone else know anyone following the one known life extension technique?

IIRC that diet has to he maintained from youth, if not infancy, to be effective and has a genetic component.

[Andor13]

IIRC that diet has to he maintained from youth, if not infancy, to be effective and has a genetic component.

Nope. They started a 16 yr old Rhesus macaque on it and he's now 43 and the world record holder, so apparently not.

However it's well worth noting that nobody is claiming a verified anti-agathic effect in humans from a calorie restricted diet. OTOH one of the ways we learned about epigenetics was from a Swedish study that found that a rich diet pre-puberty was predictive of a shortened lifespan for your Grandchildren! We are really not built to eat well.

[Xar Zarath]

...snip...

What I find funny is that while some even say the majority of us would want immortality, Andor shows that some may be averse to the idea, general or specific.

Other people may have that same mindset and while it can be reasoned that if they don't want, they wont get it, I do feel that at a certain point in our world, there would be a growing force or organisation dedicated to the non-immortalising of our society, especially if the wealthy also get immortality.

Time and resources can stack that heavily in their favour even if we are playing favourites. Heck, that may be enough to trigger several world wars and apocalyptic religious hysteria, if that doesn't drag too much into actual RL.

[Andor13]

What I find funny is that while some even say the majority of us would want immortality, Andor shows that some may be averse to the idea, general or specific.

Other people may have that same mindset and while it can be reasoned that if they don't want, they wont get it, I do feel that at a certain point in our world, there would be a growing force or organisation dedicated to the non-immortalising of our society, especially if the wealthy also get immortality.

Time and resources can stack that heavily in their favour even if we are playing favourites. Heck, that may be enough to trigger several world wars and apocalyptic religious hysteria, if that doesn't drag too much into actual RL.

It probably depends on the type of Immortality offered. If it was (for some horrific reason) Lichdom you were handing out, then you've got a problem. OTOH if you were just enchanting the Brandenburg gate and the St. Louis arch and a few more sites so that anyone passing under them gets turned into an Elan, then it's less of a big deal. There was an insurance actuary who worked out that even given infinitely extended lifespans, the average age of death would only stretch to 400 before you got killed by some kind of accident.

Given that, Immortality options which are still limited by physical injury would result in a large upswing in the population, but it would eventually stabilize, especially given that population growth drops sharply in 1st world countries, and if you go about making the world suck less, then population growth rates will drop.

[Calthropstu]

This forum seriously needs a +Like button.

Dear gods no.

Then we'd have karma whoring and the amazing debates would come down to "Look at my likes, everyone agrees with me so I am right."

Which would suck.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dear gods no.

Then we'd have karma whoring and the amazing debates would come down to "Look at my likes, everyone agrees with me so I am right."

Which would suck.You're just jealous of all my likes. :smallbiggrin:

[Calthropstu]

That is a very "interesting" finding/study. Turns out that fasting has health benefits. Who knew? :smallwink:

Need fasting? Lvl 20 wizards have haste! Fast faster with a quickened haste.

[Quertus]

No? If you were offered immortality, but the price was that every 10 years you had to undergo a month of hideous torture, how many decades do you think the pain would be worth?

Sigh. The reason it's not worth discussing is that "a month of hideous torture" has nothing to do with the printed Mindrape, any more than "eat the souls of babies" does.

Still, even if it did, the answer would be "infinite". So still not worth discussing.


Change, yes, but not death and rebirth. Life is a process. Thought, like music, only exists distributed across time. At any particular frozen instant someone could take you (or me) apart atom by atom and sum you up, totally, and correctly, in a book. (A really, really big book.) But they wouldn't be able to tell what you are thinking. The only way to know would be to put you back together, restart the clock and ask you. (Or use magic, I suppose.)

The fear of mindrape might be a personal foible I suppose, as someone who once had an eidetic memory, and now has what I regard as a fairly poor one, I have a particular horror of memory decay.

Which is not unlike why I wouldn't want any memories permanently removed. Temporarily set aside so I can enjoy reading a mystery novel again, or not try to catch myself with a tail I don't have in this form, or get a good night's sleep? Sure. But not permanently removed.

I don't think I can agree about predictive ability. If someone had the ability to read every atom (and quantum state, etc) of your being, and put someone back together that way, I believe that it would be possible (but not inherent) for them to be able to read that "really big book" and know exactly what you were thinking. Note that this is one of my more clever ways to get around Mind Blank. :smalltongue:

(Oh, and if there is a component to us outside our atoms, then that would need to be disintegrated and reassembled, too, for purposes of this discussion).


Eh. I grasp what you're saying, and it's not particularly inhuman. Our brains work in similar ways by default. You'ld just be amplifying the process and making it more subject to conscious control. Of course, wizarding may make it impossible. After all, if you can cast spells like Astral projection or Magic Jar, then you clearly must have a soul, and a mind outside the limits of your physical existence. So even if Cartesian Duality was so much nonsense before Mxyzptlk gave you 20th level Wizard powers, it isn't now. So in gaining your spells you may also have acquired a unique limitation.

... having a mind outside the limits of one's physical existence is generally a prerequisite for "Cartesian Duality", so I don't view that as a hindrance so much as a prerequisite. I'm not familiar with the role of the soul in 3e D&D, so I cannot comment on how, if at all, that would impact my desires.

I'm actually more concerned about how much "humanity" one could retain with the capacity to remember the infinite, thus my intention to engineer myself to store the infinite, and access a finite amount of it at a time. Perfect memory, beyond what eidetic memory could accomplish. To facilitate immortality, I'd want that perfect memory, regardless of how many forms I could inhabit simultaneously.

[Segev]

Dear gods no.

Then we'd have karma whoring and the amazing debates would come down to "Look at my likes, everyone agrees with me so I am right."

Which would suck.Actually, I frequent both spacebattles.com and sufficientvelocity.com, both of which have "like" buttons. The latter actually has several "ratings" buttons (e.g. like, funny, insightful, informative). I have seen authors of fictions use the like-count as a "warm fuzzy" and be worried when it starts dropping on new chapters, but I have never seen anybody say, "See? Everybody likes my post, so it must be right," even in the most heated of fanon debates. (And you can't tell me fans don't get as heated as any RAW-argument on these forums.)


You're just jealous of all my likes. :smallbiggrin:
We are. we really are. ;_;

[Andor13]

Sigh. The reason it's not worth discussing is that "a month of hideous torture" has nothing to do with the printed Mindrape, any more than "eat the souls of babies" does.

Still, even if it did, the answer would be "infinite". So still not worth discussing.

This is obviously not true, or we would not have people who seek euthenasia as a pallative for chronic pain. Learned avoidance of an negative stimulus is a thing. Even if the negative stimulus is life. It's a charming thought to consider though, that infinite life could contain enough joys to outweigh any pain. Actually that's the entire plot of "Time Enough for Love" by Robert Heinlien, which starts with them trying to heal the protagonist from a suicide attempt.


I don't think I can agree about predictive ability. If someone had the ability to read every atom (and quantum state, etc) of your being, and put someone back together that way, I believe that it would be possible (but not inherent) for them to be able to read that "really big book" and know exactly what you were thinking. Note that this is one of my more clever ways to get around Mind Blank. :smalltongue:

You couldn't. You have to get down into the nuts and bolts of neurology to know why, but you can't. You could determine what pathways were active, and (given nigh infinite computing power) you could predict how those pathways would generate new activity for a few seconds (after which you cannot because they will have been influenced by outside stimuli) but to know the actual meaning of those thoughts is impossible. You could probably get close, if you knew the entire history of the persons life, and had tracked every alteration made to the brain by outside stimuli, but even then you'ld be somewhat off because there are internal editing processes that are not predictable in terms of meaning.

And given the kind of information storage and divinations you'ld need to pull that off, it would be far easier to just put a couple of points into sense motive (or Profession: Psychologist), skim his life at a much shallower level, and guess. You'll be close enough with about (1/Googleplex) of the work.


(Oh, and if there is a component to us outside our atoms, then that would need to be disintegrated and reassembled, too, for purposes of this discussion).

... having a mind outside the limits of one's physical existence is generally a prerequisite for "Cartesian Duality", so I don't view that as a hindrance so much as a prerequisite. I'm not familiar with the role of the soul in 3e D&D, so I cannot comment on how, if at all, that would impact my desires.

I'm actually more concerned about how much "humanity" one could retain with the capacity to remember the infinite, thus my intention to engineer myself to store the infinite, and access a finite amount of it at a time. Perfect memory, beyond what eidetic memory could accomplish. To facilitate immortality, I'd want that perfect memory, regardless of how many forms I could inhabit simultaneously.

And here we stumble back into those cosmology questions that we can't answer until we have the spell casting. Do you have to store your memories locally, or can you rely on the Akashic memory? If you can access the Akashic memory, do you even need to wait until you experience the infinite or can you learn all you want to know with some good search indices? And of course, as you say, the unknowns about the role the soul plays in the mind and memory.

[Quertus]

This is obviously not true, or we would not have people who seek euthenasia as a pallative for chronic pain. Learned avoidance of an negative stimulus is a thing. Even if the negative stimulus is life. It's a charming thought to consider though, that infinite life could contain enough joys to outweigh any pain. Actually that's the entire plot of "Time Enough for Love" by Robert Heinlien, which starts with them trying to heal the protagonist from a suicide attempt.

Bingo. You're comparing infinities. How many times will eating delicious food not bring sufficient enjoyment to be worth the effort of chewing? The answer, presumably, is that it never becomes an issue. Same thing here. For me, at least.

But, happily, Mindrape has no "month of pain" (or anything else that the target can remember) attached for this discussion to be worth having in the first place.


You couldn't. You have to get down into the nuts and bolts of neurology to know why, but you can't. You could determine what pathways were active, and (given nigh infinite computing power) you could predict how those pathways would generate new activity for a few seconds (after which you cannot because they will have been influenced by outside stimuli) but to know the actual meaning of those thoughts is impossible. You could probably get close, if you knew the entire history of the persons life, and had tracked every alteration made to the brain by outside stimuli, but even then you'ld be somewhat off because there are internal editing processes that are not predictable in terms of meaning.

And given the kind of information storage and divinations you'ld need to pull that off, it would be far easier to just put a couple of points into sense motive (or Profession: Psychologist), skim his life at a much shallower level, and guess. You'll be close enough with about (1/Googleplex) of the work.

Can't? Haven't yet, sure, but can't? No, any descernable, predictable, repeatable phenomenon must be governed by ultimately fathomable rules.

Require ridiculous effort and computational power? Sure. But, it's not like storing information about all those molecular and quarks, and putting them back together again is exactly child's play.


And here we stumble back into those cosmology questions that we can't answer until we have the spell casting. Do you have to store your memories locally, or can you rely on the Akashic memory? If you can access the Akashic memory, do you even need to wait until you experience the infinite or can you learn all you want to know with some good search indices? And of course, as you say, the unknowns about the role the soul plays in the mind and memory.

To the extent that 2e inherits from 3e, I'd have to say that they are independent. Petitioners don't remember their past lives, souls and memories can be manipulated and transported individually, etc.

[Andor13]

Can't? Haven't yet, sure, but can't? No, any descernable, predictable, repeatable phenomenon must be governed by ultimately fathomable rules.

Require ridiculous effort and computational power? Sure. But, it's not like storing information about all those molecular and quarks, and putting them back together again is exactly child's play.

Of course there are rules, and while our understanding of the brain/mind is far from complete, we understand at least the outlines of this stuff.

The key problems are that the brain is plastic, and that it is formed from unique experiences during run time. Ergo the pathways that activate in my mind when I think the word "Enterprise" are not only unique to myself, they are different at different parts of my life.

As a child it may have been identified with a dry reading of the word in the dictionary. A little later it would have been wrapped up in my watching 'Star Trek'. Later it would tangle with memories of visits to the Intrepid as I thought about aircraft carriers. Still later in life I moved to a town named 'Enterprise' and formed new associations.

The concept of "Enterprise" in my brain is a node in a shifting network of related semantic concepts, sensory experiences, and inner reflection and editing. And there are more than one system of pathways/encoding.

This is why I'm saying if you could even begin to know enough about an individuals history to guess at the structure of those pathways, you wouldn't need to model their exact thoughts, you would know them well enough to guess.

[Quertus]

Of course there are rules, and while our understanding of the brain/mind is far from complete, we understand at least the outlines of this stuff.

The key problems are that the brain is plastic, and that it is formed from unique experiences during run time. Ergo the pathways that activate in my mind when I think the word "Enterprise" are not only unique to myself, they are different at different parts of my life.

As a child it may have been identified with a dry reading of the word in the dictionary. A little later it would have been wrapped up in my watching 'Star Trek'. Later it would tangle with memories of visits to the Intrepid as I thought about aircraft carriers. Still later in life I moved to a town named 'Enterprise' and formed new associations.

The concept of "Enterprise" in my brain is a node in a shifting network of related semantic concepts, sensory experiences, and inner reflection and editing. And there are more than one system of pathways/encoding.

This is why I'm saying if you could even begin to know enough about an individuals history to guess at the structure of those pathways, you wouldn't need to model their exact thoughts, you would know them well enough to guess.

... Or simply simulate the sound waves, map the response, repeat ad infinitum?

Really, though, I suspect that such methods would be ultimately unnecessary to one who truly understood the physical mind.

[Segev]

... Or simply simulate the sound waves, map the response, repeat ad infinitum?

Really, though, I suspect that such methods would be ultimately unnecessary to one who truly understood the physical mind.

Neural Networks really are easiest to work with if you mostly treat them as black boxes, and train them for stimulus/response rather than trying to directly manipulate them.

[Quertus]

Neural Networks really are easiest to work with if you mostly treat them as black boxes, and train them for stimulus/response rather than trying to directly manipulate them.

Easier? Probably. But my pride as a software developer makes me believe in the ability of analyzing white boxes when handed the source code. :smalltongue:

[Segev]

Easier? Probably. But my pride as a software developer makes me believe in the ability of analyzing white boxes when handed the source code. :smalltongue:

You... haven't really done much work with Computational Intelligence, have you. >_>

There are a lot of knobs to turn, but ultimately, the whole POINT is to exploit their training behaviors to have them discover methods of doing things we couldn't hand-design or imagine up. (This is where my Ph.D. lies, though I sadly don't get to work with CIs in my day job.)

[Calthropstu]

Actually, I frequent both spacebattles.com and sufficientvelocity.com, both of which have "like" buttons. The latter actually has several "ratings" buttons (e.g. like, funny, insightful, informative). I have seen authors of fictions use the like-count as a "warm fuzzy" and be worried when it starts dropping on new chapters, but I have never seen anybody say, "See? Everybody likes my post, so it must be right," even in the most heated of fanon debates. (And you can't tell me fans don't get as heated as any RAW-argument on these forums.)


We are. we really are. ;_;

Fair enough, but it WILL inhibit people's natural responses and some will try to "sound good" for the likes. Plus, if likes become a thing dislikes will be inevitable... And half my posts would be disliked into oblivion.

[Quertus]

You... haven't really done much work with Computational Intelligence, have you. >_>

There are a lot of knobs to turn, but ultimately, the whole POINT is to exploit their training behaviors to have them discover methods of doing things we couldn't hand-design or imagine up. (This is where my Ph.D. lies, though I sadly don't get to work with CIs in my day job.)

I'm rather... Morally opposed to the notion of intentionally writing unreadable code. :smalltongue:

[Andor13]

... Or simply simulate the sound waves, map the response, repeat ad infinitum?

Really, though, I suspect that such methods would be ultimately unnecessary to one who truly understood the physical mind.

Sure, you could replicate the mind you've mapped in some synthetic system, and then run a really large series of simulations to map out responses to stimuli, but that's only the syntactic/verbal portion, you're still missing at least two entire other networks, and most thought is non-verbal. And it doesn't exactly count as reading the mind does it? Oh, and not helping you at all with a deaf person.

The brain is the most complex thing in the observable universe.

You could run a complex enough series of simulations to map out everything, if you created a full featured virtual world, which is functionally identical to the divination series I already described, but then, why not just ask your virtual copy what they were thinking?


I'm rather... Morally opposed to the notion of intentionally writing unreadable code. :smalltongue:

Well that's the whole point of a learning network though, you're not writing the code. (It's also self-modifying code. And occasionally running on different hardware, see brain plasticity.)


Fair enough, but it WILL inhibit people's natural responses and some will try to "sound good" for the likes. Plus, if likes become a thing dislikes will be inevitable... And half my posts would be disliked into oblivion.

Eh? I don't think they mean a reddit-like up vote/down vote system, but something like EnWorld's like/XP/Laugh system. I miss that feature frequently.

[Quertus]

Well that's the whole point of a learning network though, you're not writing the code. (It's also self-modifying code. And occasionally running on different hardware, see brain plasticity.)

I suppose I should modify that to being morally opposed to code that you cannot read, understand, or debug. Debug's kinda a big one, IMO.

[Segev]

Fair enough, but it WILL inhibit people's natural responses and some will try to "sound good" for the likes. Plus, if likes become a thing dislikes will be inevitable... And half my posts would be disliked into oblivion.It really isn't. Again, the two forums I referenced have no "dislike" features at all, and the closest one can get is marking something as "funny" when you mean it derisively. This actively is a reportable offense on the forum that has it (sufficient velocity).

Not really advocating for "likes" here - though I have felt the lack a few times - but I do dislike it when a case is made on premises for which I have evidence to the contrary.


I'm rather... Morally opposed to the notion of intentionally writing unreadable code. :smalltongue:


I suppose I should modify that to being morally opposed to code that you cannot read, understand, or debug. Debug's kinda a big one, IMO.
The code you write is readable and debuggable (assuming you're a reasonably neat coder). The issue is that the code is developing and training its own weights, variables, and other factors which determine what it ultimately produces. The whole principle behind training is that you guide it towards correct results, until it's good enough that you can trust it to be as accurate as anything you could have written (or, more likely moreso) on even input data you've never seen before.

It's a lot like teaching a person or an animal some facts or tricks.

Teaching a person how to play baseball, for example, he eventually learns tricks, techniques, and intuitive leaps that you never explicitly told him. He made connections and internalize the rules, both of physics and of the game. Teaching a person how to drive a car, you don't give him every instruction he'll ever follow in a strict algorithm. You teach him what the controls do, more or less, and what the rules are, and then let him practice. He eventually gains an intuitive understanding of his vehicle and how to use it to drive according to his desires. He may even learn to drive it by the rules of the road (or, one might argue, he intuits the "real" rules of the road, as opposed to those claimed by the legal code).

Teach a dog how to fetch, and he learns to retrieve items for you. He learns far more than the simple steps you teach, such as how to identify the thing thrown, how to identify things by NAME if you teach him "fetch my slippers" or something, and how to find things and work out how to bring them back.

Teaching a CI algorithm is similar. You have training sets on which it will learn what the right answers are, and validation sets to make sure it hasn't just memorized a list of responses, but actually developed a problem-solving method.

[Quertus]

@Segev - oh. That's a much less objectionable description than the ones I've been given before. Heck, I've written code almost like that before (for a very limited AI to play MtG).

-----

Ok, I suppose it's time that I get serious about making a dystopia in the name of trying to make a utopia.

To make what I'd believe was a utopia, it would need to be opt-in. None of my heavy-handed forcing peace and prosperity on the world.

Well, let's start off with research, time travel, more research, and the Billion-Eyed-One. And, why not, we'll keep the telepathic broadcast, too.

But, this time, the message is that everyone has the option to choose a world without hunger, without war, without disease, without murder, without theft, without sexual assault, without (insert a bunch of other "bad" things here). A world (well, demiplane, really) of unlimited resources, unlimited potential, fueled by Tippyverse-style resetting traps of whatever my research and divisions deemed optimal. But it will only be given to those who willingly choose it, who willingly choose to be remade as someone who would not (insert bad things here).

Yes, my utopia would be based on my own custom, "better than" version of Mindrape / Sanctify the Wicked. In order to have a world without war, it's inhabitants must agree to be remade into something that will not make war. Etc etc.

Now, perhaps, I might consider making intermediary demi-utopias, where only certain subsets of changes are made, so that people who don't want sexual assault to be a thing, but don't mind violence, can have their utopia. Shrug. I could, but, honestly, I probably wouldn't bother.

Whether one or many, all will be monitored by the Billion-Eyed-One (or one for each demiplane). If their personality starts to shift back, if they suffer a relapse, then they will receive an "adjustment" (ie, another dose of mind control).

Note that, although I am immortal, I will not be handing out immortality. "Would you Rather" asked, "would you rather never age, or never die?", and a precious 6-year-old answered "never age". When I asked her why, she answered "because I want to die, so I can go to heaven". I see no reason to take that away from her. But I won't stop medical science from improving.

Every year, the telepathic broadcast would be repeated, updated to include statistics on how each civilization is faring. However, opting in can be done at any time, not just at the time of broadcast. The Billion-Eyed-One would facilitate instant recognition (and removal?) of those who accept my offer.

I may even create sites where the Real News of both worlds is played, or allow people the option to access it telepathically via the Billion-Eyed-One.

Lastly, I may implement a counter-deterrent. I may, a divination-suggested amount of time before the first broadcast, abduct all the world leaders, and explain to them a) exactly what was about to happen, b) the consequences of going against my will, and c) exactly what going against my will entails. I mean, they are free to study my techniques, as it is impossible for them to copy them (which I would warn them was the case), but they are not allowed to slander my efforts.

-----

How does my utopia fall apart?

Off hand, I know that there is an issue with what age range to send my telepathic broadcast to, and what age range to accept opting in from. I'm sure many rebellious teenagers might leave the world on a whim after a fight with their parents, yet, at the same time, can I leave behind the many starving or fatally ill just because they're children?

Is this a decision that parents can make for their children? Can I accept guardians leaving their dependents behind?

And, if it's even possible, do I accept opt-outs from those who are already in?

[unseenmage]

...

-----

How does my utopia fall apart?

Off hand, I know that there is an issue with what age range to send my telepathic broadcast to, and what age range to accept opting in from. I'm sure many rebellious teenagers might leave the world on a whim after a fight with their parents, yet, at the same time, can I leave behind the many starving or fatally ill just because they're children?

Is this a decision that parents can make for their children? Can I accept guardians leaving their dependents behind?

And, if it's even possible, do I accept opt-outs from those who are already in?

Ran into something similar with a thought experiment about Int Magic Item Wondrous Architecture Simulacrum makers.
If programmed to make sims on command, what happens when little susie asks for barney the dinosaur?

Kids say the darndest things in thought experiments.

Adorable little monkey wrenches, the lot of them.

[Segev]

@Segev - oh. That's a much less objectionable description than the ones I've been given before. Heck, I've written code almost like that before (for a very limited AI to play MtG

That would be a good use for learning algorithms, yeah.

Glad it was a helpful outline!


My utopia would be fairly hands-off. People have a right to life, liberty, and property. Live in a place I protect, and I will help protect those rights. I know “ don’t be a jerk” is broad and nonspecific, but it’s a good principle anyway.

In general, my foreign policy would be: “ Don’t make me come over there.”

[Xar Zarath]

...In general, my foreign policy would be: “ Don’t make me come over there.”

At some point regardless, someone is going to test how far you're willing to go. When it comes to that, overwhelming force and display the offender or quietly deal with it?

[Eldonauran]

At some point regardless, someone is going to test how far you're willing to go. When it comes to that, overwhelming force and display the offender or quietly deal with it?
I can only answer than for myself. I'd employ an "eye for an eye" tactic. If I was bothered and "had to come over there", the persons involved would be detained, divination cast to find out exactly what they did, and equal amounts of return applied directly to themselves.

[Andor13]

How does my utopia fall apart?

You can probably create a stable, tyrannical, utopia. Kind of like the Instrumentality of Man, with it's telepathically and chemically enforced universal happiness. Have you read Cordwainer Smith?

[Segev]

At some point regardless, someone is going to test how far you're willing to go. When it comes to that, overwhelming force and display the offender or quietly deal with it?

Oh, the former, absolutely. If you’re deliberately testing my warning, you’re volunteering to be an example to others as to why that is a bad idea.

[Xar Zarath]

Oh, the former, absolutely. If you’re deliberately testing my warning, you’re volunteering to be an example to others as to why that is a bad idea.

Technically not only do you get off with this scott free and hassles is a minimum, I can only imagine in RL how this would go. the protests and inevitable marches by those people who are aligned against you, special interest groups who spout on tv 24/7 about the dangerous magical stranger who thinks just because he can act with impunity, that means he's allowed to.

I mean, in all honesty if someone messed with people I cared about, with such power retribution is easy but everything else that comes with it would get on my nerves quick.

[Segev]

Technically not only do you get off with this scott free and hassles is a minimum, I can only imagine in RL how this would go. the protests and inevitable marches by those people who are aligned against you, special interest groups who spout on tv 24/7 about the dangerous magical stranger who thinks just because he can act with impunity, that means he's allowed to.

I mean, in all honesty if someone messed with people I cared about, with such power retribution is easy but everything else that comes with it would get on my nerves quick.

It would be annoying, but the fact that people felt safe enough to have such protests would tell me that I was doing something right. I know I could eliminate them, by violence or mind control. The fact I do not, and they know I won’t as long as they’re just protesting, means I am not really hitting “evil tyrant” status.

[Xar Zarath]

It is something to consider but with such active power in the world, how would you all deal with the inevitable rise of cults that centred around you? Whether doomsday, messianic or otherwise, how would you go about it?

Please note that I am positing a very likely situation as your power would negate a lot of religious matters. So as far as this question stands, please refrain from too inflammatory religious RL matters.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What would you do if you found yourself in the Wormverse (https://parahumans.wordpress.com), and being a level 20 wizard (with all wizard spells in your spellbook) was your CYOA superpower (https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/worm-cyoa-all-versions.558034/)?

[Eldonauran]

It is something to consider but with such active power in the world, how would you all deal with the inevitable rise of cults that centred around you? Whether doomsday, messianic or otherwise, how would you go about it?The answer to that can be extremely complex, especially if the person answering it happens to be of a religious sort themselves. Personally, I'd make no claim to being a god, because that would be the truth. Nor would I tolerate worship. Any committing atrocities in my name would find those atrocities visited upon themselves.


Please note that I am positing a very likely situation as your power would negate a lot of religious matters. So as far as this question stands, please refrain from too inflammatory religious RL matters.Not necessarily. Many religions have warnings and prophesies of god-like beings returning. Having god-like powers merely means you would find yourself in the middle of those religious "disagreements" and adds a whole new level of complexity to the situation you find yourself in. Entire blocks of different religions would align themselves against you, while solid portions of their own followers convert to your worship. Many people are not truly committed to the beliefs they claim to hold and religious beliefs are no exception to that.

Let's not forget that your sudden power is very unlikely to have come from nowhere. Someone, or something, might have granted it to you.

[Quertus]

It is something to consider but with such active power in the world, how would you all deal with the inevitable rise of cults that centred around you? Whether doomsday, messianic or otherwise, how would you go about it?

Please note that I am positing a very likely situation as your power would negate a lot of religious matters. So as far as this question stands, please refrain from too inflammatory religious RL matters.

Yeah, that's probably falling under "slanderous things that I wouldn't tolerate"...

[Segev]

I'd be quite honest and tell people I'm not a god.

The only thing that might tempt me would be if worship somehow actually gave me more magical power (a la Exalted and the Cult background). As wizards work, though, I'd not want to deal with the hazards of a cult focused on me. I'd much rather people work for me for honest reasons; far less likely to engender a sense of betrayed disillusionment in my employees that way.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Cults are another reason why I would stay behind the scenes. That way lies SPARTA! madness.

Even if I do gain deityhood (which isn't terribly difficult in some campaign settings), I wouldn't want people worshiping me, as such.

[Andor13]

I'd be quite honest and tell people I'm not a god.

https://media.giphy.com/media/MzfHvEj95W6jK/giphy.gif

[Segev]

https://media.giphy.com/media/MzfHvEj95W6jK/giphy.gif

Only so much I can do. My conscience, at least, would be clear. I'd give them the same advice or guidance I'd give anybody else who asked, and if they broke my rules in a way that made me come over there, I'd deal with them as I would any other malefactors. I wouldn't let it bother me, otherwise, because hey, gotta respect free agency if I'm to be consistent.

[Calthropstu]

Cults are another reason why I would stay behind the scenes. That way lies SPARTA! madness.

Even if I do gain deityhood (which isn't terribly difficult in some campaign settings), I wouldn't want people worshiping me, as such.

Worshippers do have their uses. And it's not like they'd be far from the mark. You could, after all, smite them with lightning.

[Quertus]

Worshippers do have their uses. And it's not like they'd be far from the mark. You could, after all, smite them with lightning.

I mean, I didn't create them - barring new created races. And I didn't create the universe - barring Genesis.

Ok, maybe it wouldn't be too far afield to be worshipped as a creator god under certain scenarios...

[Xar Zarath]

I mean, I didn't create them - barring new created races. And I didn't create the universe - barring Genesis.

Ok, maybe it wouldn't be too far afield to be worshipped as a creator god under certain scenarios...

Well, how far would you take it? How far would you want to go?

First off, do you want to tolerate the growings of a cult around you in the first place?

[Quertus]

Well, how far would you take it? How far would you want to go?

First off, do you want to tolerate the growings of a cult around you in the first place?

I don't want to tolerate falsehoods.

But, under certain circumstances, such as with a race I created in a universe I created, it'd be difficult to claim that they would be completely in the wrong here.

[Segev]

I don't want to tolerate falsehoods.

But, under certain circumstances, such as with a race I created in a universe I created, it'd be difficult to claim that they would be completely in the wrong here.

Personally, I don't think worship is given because of creator-status. I mean, I don't worship my mom. Worship is given as part of discipleship. There is something to learn from one's god(s), and worship is part of following their path to understanding.

So, since I would not yet be all-knowing, I wouldn't want worshippers. Maybe students. Followers, sure; I can always use loyal minions. But I'd rather they follow for reasons that are true, rather than because they feel like I am some divine being.

[Quertus]

Personally, I don't think worship is given because of creator-status. I mean, I don't worship my mom. Worship is given as part of discipleship. There is something to learn from one's god(s), and worship is part of following their path to understanding.

So, since I would not yet be all-knowing, I wouldn't want worshippers. Maybe students. Followers, sure; I can always use loyal minions. But I'd rather they follow for reasons that are true, rather than because they feel like I am some divine being.

"'Dad' is the name of God on the lips and in the hearts of children". Or something like that - I forget the exact quote.

Interesting that you pair worship with omniscience. To the best of my knowledge, most real-world religions do not feature all-knowing deities. If I got a choice in the matter, "all-knowing" and "all-wise" sound like they'd be top picks, but it's clearly not necessary in everyone's acceptance of deity-hood.

Also, per the rules of this thread, we are unique, and cannot give this power to anyone else. So, not entirely unlike a divine being in that regard, either.

---

From a D&D character's perspective, there are at least 3 generally unrecognized "gods". There's Gygax, the Creator. Then there's GM, the Creator. Then there's Player, the Creator. It's.. an interesting religion.

[Kalkra]

I mean, I don't worship my mom

You probably do to a certain degree, or at least you did when you were younger. I mean, it's not worship in the traditional sense, (barring Mother's Day) but I'm assuming that you generally obeyed her when she had power over you, and maybe even did things unsolicitedly in the hopes of currying favor with her, which is really what worship boils down to.


To the best of my knowledge, most real-world religions do not feature all-knowing deities.

Really? Because according to Google, the two most popular religions are Christianity and Islam, and according to Wikipedia both have an all-knowing deity.


Also, per the rules of this thread, we are unique, and cannot give this power to anyone else. So, not entirely unlike a divine being in that regard, either.
Between magic items and PAO, you can bestow a lot of power. Technically, you could bestow more power than you yourself possess with rings of infinite wishes and whatnot.

On an unrelated note, I'm kinda new to this website, and it seems like when people quote other people, it looks different then when I do it. Is there something more than just quote tags?

[Quertus]

Really? Because according to Google, the two most popular religions are Christianity and Islam, and according to Wikipedia both have an all-knowing deity.


Between magic items and PAO, you can bestow a lot of power. Technically, you could bestow more power than you yourself possess with rings of infinite wishes and whatnot.

On an unrelated note, I'm kinda new to this website, and it seems like when people quote other people, it looks different then when I do it. Is there something more than just quote tags?

Welcome to the Playground!

Last things first, there are buttons that look like quotation marks at the bottom of each post - use those to get a "standard" looking quote. The "quote" takes you straight to replying, the "quote plus" leaves you in the thread, and is used to quote multiple posts.

Speaking for myself, I wasn't talking about most popular religions, but all religions over time. Greek, Norse, Welsh, Sumarian, Egyptian, you name it, all were included in my assertion that omniscience is not a prerequisite to being the object of a human religion.

And I've noted that Playgrounders have a rather "items are not me" attitude; thus, my differentiating of things others may be able to accomplish with artifice, and the powers we possess per this thread.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And I've noted that Playgrounders have a rather "items are not me" attitude; thus, my differentiating of things others may be able to accomplish with artifice, and the powers we possess per this thread.In my case, my items WOULD be me. I'd be crafting an illithid humanoid skin graft, enhancing it all to high Celestia, cloning it a few times via a summoned creature and a mirror of opposition (just in case), then reinstalling it, to ensure that I'd never, ever, ever lose my magic items.

Then taking Ancestral Relic (Unarmed Strike) for an even more magical me.

[Xar Zarath]

...Speaking for myself, I wasn't talking about most popular religions, but all religions over time. Greek, Norse, Welsh, Sumarian, Egyptian, you name it, all were included in my assertion that omniscience is not a prerequisite to being the object of a human religion...

Well, depending on you, your cult as it were could be syncretized into some older religion or paganism or folk worship. You could play some wise old guru role, appearing as you see fit, manifesting astrally to those you deem "worthy" in order to impart wisdom or punishment depending.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, depending on you, your cult as it were could be syncretized into some older religion or paganism or folk worship. You could play some wise old guru role, appearing as you see fit, manifesting astrally to those you deem "worthy" in order to impart wisdom or punishment depending.Oh, it'd be easy to play the role of a god. And it wouldn't exactly be a false role, honestly. Maybe I wouldn't be a literal god by D&D standards, but immortal, functionally invincible, the power to control time and space at will, to create and destroy entire planes of reality and create new life...

Still, godhood has expectations that I wouldn't want to bother meeting. Granted, I'd try to make life better for everyone, but I, for one, wouldn't want to deal with mindless sheep doing what someone else who tells them what they think I want*.





*That is, what they want people to do and then try to pin on me, like what already happens.

[Xar Zarath]

...Still, godhood has expectations that I wouldn't want to bother meeting. Granted, I'd try to make life better for everyone, but I, for one, wouldn't want to deal with mindless sheep doing what someone else who tells them what they think I want*.

Hmm, you could just micro manage that indefinitely...

[Asmotherion]

I'd live a life of luxery like a Lord with my loved ones in a Mordenkainen's Magnificant Mansion cast on the Astral Plane (So basically, Eternal Food and No Aging), away from the rest of the Rotten World of Mortals, and visit the world once in a wile (pretending to be a less powerful Wizard than I actually am, perhaps even a commoner) to play Deus Ex Machina to whatever picked up my interest/ amuse myself/ kill my boredom with no moral qualms.

If I found some people worthy to enter the shelter of my Elite, I would travel with them, and have some quests with them to test if they are really worthy to enter my Personal Paradise, based on my personal values.

Since I'll also need Guards for the entrance of the Mansions (for possible Gith attacks), as well as some more Mages to cast more mansions (for more people we would gather), I'd look for that as well, but they would be lower in the hierarchy; basically just Meat Shields and Mansion Spawners who should be greatfull to have a place in my collectiva of Nobles.

At this point, I know I just made a small feud, that could possibly have it's own disputes (especially with the other Mages), thus I'll stop right here, and leave the rest to your imagination. XD

[Xar Zarath]

I'd live a life of luxery like a Lord with my loved ones in a Mordenkainen's Magnificant Mansion cast on the Astral Plane (So basically, Eternal Food and No Aging), away from the rest of the Rotten World of Mortals, and visit the world once in a wile (pretending to be a less powerful Wizard than I actually am, perhaps even a commoner) to play Deus Ex Machina to whatever picked up my interest/ amuse myself/ kill my boredom with no moral qualms.

If I found some people worthy to enter the shelter of my Elite, I would travel with them, and have some quests with them to test if they are really worthy to enter my Personal Paradise, based on my personal values.

Since I'll also need Guards for the entrance of the Mansions (for possible Gith attacks), as well as some more Mages to cast more mansions (for more people we would gather), I'd look for that as well, but they would be lower in the hierarchy; basically just Meat Shields and Mansion Spawners who should be greatfull to have a place in my collectiva of Nobles.

At this point, I know I just made a small feud, that could possibly have it's own disputes (especially with the other Mages), thus I'll stop right here, and leave the rest to your imagination. XD

So it would be like Andrew Ryan Bioshock but with magic and more stable. Hmm, what if powerful rich individuals from Earth want in? What would be your admission price?


On another thought, what about space habitation? There are some groups out there who would want you to help them live in a nice habitable planet or one that you could alter like Mars? Would you do it or not? Why?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So it would be like Andrew Ryan Bioshock but with magic and more stable. Hmm, what if powerful rich individuals from Earth want in? What would be your admission price?Why would their being rich matter? He can literally make money using magic. Why would he need other people's?

Plus, if the media is to be believed (not that it should, mind you), most rich people are self-entitled [words I can't print here], and who needs that?


On another thought, what about space habitation? There are some groups out there who would want you to help them live in a nice habitable planet or one that you could alter like Mars? Would you do it or not? Why?Well, I would. That would solve a number of current problems that would be impossible to solve on a short timeframe without going Tyrant-Lord Freeza on a large percentage of the population. Plus, engaging the nations of the world in constructive group projects like intergalactic colonization (rather than the self-involved crapfests they're doing now due to their leaders' avarice) would be good for humanity in general.

[Asmotherion]

So it would be like Andrew Ryan Bioshock but with magic and more stable. Hmm, what if powerful rich individuals from Earth want in? What would be your admission price?


On another thought, what about space habitation? There are some groups out there who would want you to help them live in a nice habitable planet or one that you could alter like Mars? Would you do it or not? Why?

1) They would still have to complete a task for me such as a quest, in order to prove themselves to me. This is for two reasons: First so that I can know I can trust them, and seccond, so that we can establish who the boss in this relationship is. Then I would probably still not admit them for some time, instead gifting them with longuevity through the Clone Spell, and through it prosperity of their company (a timeless perspective is a great advantage in buisness). They would reward me through percentage (a 20percent of the net gain is a fair amount for imortality). After I would be happy with my gains, I would allow them access to my heaven.

2) I would find the most profitable way to create a Win-Win situation out of it, and if unable to do so, I wouldn't really bother. I would look that the groups be desperate enough in order to be grateful when and if I'd intervene. Then, I would just ask for a monument like a statue or something to be remembered as their saviour, cut ties with them, and leave History make it so that they remember me as some kind of Deity, perhaps even worship me as such XD. I won't necesserally get Divine Ranks out of it, but it will be a huge reward for my EGO, and that's more than money can buy :P

[MaxiDuRaritry]

By the way, I would most definitely be taking ranks in Xanatos (Gambit).

Wait, would that be a Craft skill? Knowledge? Perform?

I'ma go with Perform.

[Nifft]

By the way, I would most definitely be taking ranks in Xanatos (Gambit).

Wait, would that be a Craft skill? Knowledge? Perform?

I'ma go with Perform.

Xanatos Speed Chess would be a 5e tool proficiency.

Xanatos Gambit might be a 3.5e skill trick.

[Asmotherion]

Why would their being rich matter? He can literally make money using magic. Why would he need other people's?

Plus, if the media is to be believed (not that it should, mind you), most rich people are self-entitled [words I can't print here], and who needs that?

Well, I would. That would solve a number of current problems that would be impossible to solve on a short timeframe without going Tyrant-Lord Freeza on a large percentage of the population. Plus, engaging the nations of the world in constructive group projects like intergalactic colonization (rather than the self-involved crapfests they're doing now due to their leaders' avarice) would be good for humanity in general.

I technically can make money, but there's a limit to that, and some Arcane Components are Quite Costly. Having a Passive income on the other hand never hurts the Wise Mage XD

I'm a man of simple yet refined taste. I just want a Roof over my and my friends head, food and drinks for them so I can ensure a good life quality, and Unlimited Power through morrally gray means.

[Andor13]

I technically can make money, but there's a limit to that, and some Arcane Components are Quite Costly. Having a Passive income on the other hand never hurts the Wise Mage XD

I'm a man of simple yet refined taste. I just want a Roof over my and my friends head, food and drinks for them so I can ensure a good life quality, and Unlimited Power through morrally gray means.

Divinations + lottery + stock market = More money than God.
Or, you know, conjure some exotic matter and ask Elon Musk what he'd like to pay for a working Alcubierre Warp Drive, or a portal to Mars.

[Asmotherion]

Divinations + lottery + stock market = More money than God.
Or, you know, conjure some exotic matter and ask Elon Musk what he'd like to pay for a working Alcubierre Warp Drive, or a portal to Mars.

Well, why do it, when I can put someone else to do it, and establish who's the Boss wile doing it? :P

It's more about making clear to those rich and former nobles who's the Boss really, and how this new System works. They have to pay me because they want what I have to offer, and that's how things roll. I give them virtual immortality, they pay me for it. I give them access to my heaven, they give me control of all their mortal buisnesses. If they ever want to go back, they reassume control of their buisness, on my behalf, and I get the percentage I used to get (in the meanwile, I promote some other guy in their place, as a substitute buisness owner who may or may not eventually gain my approval for entry). It's a Win-Win situation for everyone.

The stock market thing sounds like something I'd arange for a buisness owner I'd own, to gain indirect proffit from. This way I'm more Invisible to the public eye, and more Free to play Deus Ex Machina. XD

[Balrog]

i would like to think i would only use the 20th level stuff in really specific situations like if i were to wish someone back to life i would have to go back and make sure they were worthy of true resurrection like only use my powers for good if the people deserved good or destroy things that needed to be destroyed so pretty much god through the world in as fair a way as possible.

[Segev]

i would like to think i would only use the 20th level stuff in really specific situations like if i were to wish someone back to life i would have to go back and make sure they were worthy of true resurrection like only use my powers for good if the people deserved good or destroy things that needed to be destroyed so pretty much god through the world in as fair a way as possible.

Nah. Just use them when you want to. Sure, avoid being evil and stuff; I'm not advocating NE power-is-its-own-justification, here. But if you want to bring somebody back to life, use that wish. They deserve it because you value their life enough to do it. No need to be more complicated than that. I mean, seriously, are you going to refuse to wish your best friend back just because he isn't memetic Ghandi?

[Calthropstu]

Nah. Just use them when you want to. Sure, avoid being evil and stuff; I'm not advocating NE power-is-its-own-justification, here. But if you want to bring somebody back to life, use that wish. They deserve it because you value their life enough to do it. No need to be more complicated than that. I mean, seriously, are you going to refuse to wish your best friend back just because he isn't memetic Ghandi?

Why avoid being "evil?" Seriously, the world could use a good ass kicking. Make yourself the baddest bad of all bads, and you can honestly do more good than if you play nice. People scoff at displays of power, and praise pacifists and all that... but use of force IS ALL THAT WORKS. Literally nothing else does. It's why police exist, it's why armies exist, and it is why covert ops exist. Force works, and nothing else does. So if you want to change anything, you will have to force it to work.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Why avoid being "evil?" Seriously, the world could use a good ass kicking. Make yourself the baddest bad of all bads, and you can honestly do more good than if you play nice. People scoff at displays of power, and praise pacifists and all that... but use of force IS ALL THAT WORKS. Literally nothing else does. It's why police exist, it's why armies exist, and it is why covert ops exist. Force works, and nothing else does. So if you want to change anything, you will have to force it to work.D&D "Evil" is real world "psychotic." As in, clinically insane. You enjoy inflicting pain and suffering on people, either as a first recourse when solving a problem, or just because it gets you off.

Remember, "Good" is not "nice."

Militantly Good or even Neutral? Okay. True Evil? Not okay.

[Malphegor]

Hey, with Polymorph spells we can probably transform people permanently (same species!)into the gender they desire whilst keeping their superficial details the same if they wish. So hey, I guess Wizard 20 might make us popular in the trans community?

I mean, I would charge for it, spell slots don’t grow on trees and I have other projects like perpetual motion machines and helping with space colonisation, but enough to make £20,000/year seems reasonable