Reading Discworld!

[Lemmy]

Hello, everyone!

Here is the story: I first read "The Colour of Magic" and "Light Fantastic" almost 15 years ago. I enjoyed the books but never read the rest of the novels. Skip to 3 weeks ago and I find the whole collection (41 book) in English on sale on a book store near my house. I buy it and decide to re-read the first two books then read the rest in publication order.

Once again I enjoy the adventures of Rincewind and company in the first two books, and friends tell me the books get much better, so I'm looking forward to it!

That said, right now I'm halfway through "Equal Rites" and I'm bored out of my freaking mind! Reading it feels like a chore! Is it ok to skip it or should I force my way to the end?

Any suggestions about what to read next? Should I just stick with publication order? What do y'all think?

[hamishspence]

Equal Rites gets better toward the end. That said, Mort, the very next book, is usually said to be where the series hits its stride.

[Rynjin]

The first few books aren't bad, but they're a little all over the place. The Night Watch 'series' is a good jumping on point overall, to be read in order: Guards! Guards! (book 8), Theatre of Cruelty (apparently? I've never read this one), Men At Arms, Feet of Clay, Jingo, The Fifth Elephant, Thud!, and Snuff.

Vimes is the closest the series comes to having a main character besides perhaps Death IMO.

If you want more Rincewind, there's also Sourcerer and Interesting Times.

[Mightymosy]

Sourceror was medium, if you ask me.

I read one of the Guards series which was excellent (unfortunately forgot the name).

Two of the young witches series (one as an audio book) which were both very good.

Small gods was interesting and highly relevant on ethics, but not "nice" to read. Depressing, actually.

Equal rites was also merely ok, not spectacular.

[lord_khaine]

Hello, everyone!

Here is the story: I first read the "Colour of Magic" and "Light Fantastic" almost 15 years ago. I enjoyed the books bur never read the rest of the novels. Skip to 3 weeks ago and I find the whole collection (41 book) in English on sale on a book store near my house. I buy it and decide to re-read the first two booms then read the rest in publication order.

Once again I enjoy the adventures of Rincewind and company in the first two books, and friends tell me the books get much better, so I'm lookinv forward to it!

That said, right now I'm halfway through "Equal Rites" and I'm bored out of my freaking mind! Reading it feels like a chore! Is it ok to skip it or should I force my way to the end?

Any suggestions about what to read next? Should I just stick qith publication order? What do y'all think?

Be a MAN! or Dwarf?!

Read every single book, in publication order!
Do it as homage to one of the greatest fantasy authors of our generation!!
And post updates, progress report, thoughs, after each book !!!

[Fyraltari]

Be a MAN! or Dwarf?!

Read every single book, in publication order!
Do it as homage to one of the greatest fantasy authors of our generation!!
And post updates, progress report, thoughs, after each book !!!

Basically this.

[Rodin]

Equal Rites is one of the few Discworld books I've only read a couple times, with the only ones that I've only read once being the very last few when the quality was declining.

The only other real misses from the main body of his work would be Eric and Pyramids. Both enjoyable enough, but not on par with the other books he was writing at the time.

As for Equal Rites, you don't really miss anything if you skip it. It's early enough that a lot of the events get retconned and don't really get brought up again. It does get better towards the end, as mentioned, and it is relatively short. I'd say it's definitely one of the weaker novels overall.

[RossN]

First of all you're not alone: I love Equal Rites now but I did find it tough going the first time around. It's a pretty radical departure from the first two books and while Mort (the fourth book in the series) is a bit similar in being introspective that book is more overtly funny and the character interaction is more fun.

Most people will tell you the later Disc books are better... which is sort of true but sort of isn't. Basically the series starts getting a lot less interested in parodying fantasy at a certain point and more interested in parodying late 20th century/early 21st century society through a fantasy lens. It is good stuff and it works for most people, but if the medieval-esque/D&D/Conan/Lankhmar fantasy aspect itself is a big draw the books after Interesting Times might be less appealing.

I'd personally tell you to put down Equal Rites and go for Mort next, then Sourcery and then Guard! Guards!. Those three between them cover three of the basic Discworld styles and at the very least you'll probably like Sourcery which is Rincewind book with a strong feel of The Light Fantastic to it.

[2D8HP]

Really?

I liked Equal Rites more than anything with much of Rincewind.

Off the top of my head Lords & Ladies is my favorite, but reading Wyrd Sisters, and Witches Abroad sets it up (as does Equal Rites to lesser extent), otherwise I thought that

Mort

Guards! Guards!

Men at Arms

Hogfather

The Last Hero

Night Watch

The Wee Free Men

A Hat Full of Sky

Wintersmith,

and

I Shall Wear Midnight

were all standouts in the series.

[Lemmy]

Well I decided to try Equal Rites for at least a couple more chapters... Hopefully it gets better soon.

[Corvus]

The first few are very different than later ones - Pterry basically changed directions with the setting after them. I kind of like the Colour of Magic and Ligth Fantastic the way they were written and sometimes wish he had kept that style going.

It is in the middle of the series that has the best books to my mind. He really understood the setting by that stage and was writing top notch stuff.

A lot of teh later books saw a bit of a decline though. A large part of that was of course his decline health, but also he tended to be a bit more anvilicious as well. It wasn't that he didn't have messages in early books, but they were a little better disguised.

[Sinewmire]

I've found that the Discworld books are even better if you are familiar with what they're spoofing. My schoolboy studies of shakespeare meant I got a *lot* of the jokes in the Witches books, for example.

My favourite book is probably Monstrous Regiment. Pratchett's later stuff tends to lack decent villains or a sense of danger, but Monstrous Regiment works with the "villain" being the setting, a bleak war-torn country.

Equal Rites is one of the earlier books that I find a bit denser and harder to read, but there's a lot of good stuff in there. I still love the idea of a town called Bad Ass ("Disobedient Donkey would have been too long") and it sets up Witchcraft and the Wizards very well, although Granny Weatherwax is a wierd amalgam of herself and Nanny Ogg in it - Pterry hadn't found her voice yet.

[lord_khaine]

Yes, thats one of the main reason for why i think you should soldier on.
It gives a crucial insigt into the first apperance of one the most important discworld characters.

[veti]

Read them all in publication order, but if you find yourself struggling with one - don't worry about skipping it. You can decide later whether it's worth coming back to try again.

Reading them in anything but publication order is - often recommended, but not a good idea. There are dependencies and shifts throughout the whole series that nobody has ever mapped fully, and if you try to read any of the "sub-series" out of sequence, you'll be subtly off-balance for having missed the intervening "unrelated" books.

Personally, Eric is my favourite of the whole series and a contender for Funniest Book Ever, but everyone has their own opinions about that kind of ranking, so I urge you not to be swayed by any of it. Form your own opinions.

[farothel]

I've read them in order a couple of times and it all comes down to personal preferences. I've spend many an hour at the bar at a Discworld Con discussing which are the best. Some like the 'witches' subseries very much, others like the 'city watch' or 'death' more. Personally I find the witches less interesting (except for witches abroad and maskerade) and I love Susan Sto Helit and Sam Vimes, but that's my personal preference. I would certainly not give up on this great series of books because one of them is a bit less good than the others.

As to reading order, I think in order of publication is the best way not to miss anything, although I mostly read the Tiffany Achings (young witches series) separate. Of course, having read all of them multiple times already, this is less of an issue as I will get most of the connections.
https://www.lspace.org/main.html : a fan site with suggested reading order (not fully up to date) and also annotations and quotes (again, not completely up to date).

[Lemmy]

Equal Rites

Thank you, everyone, for your replies.

This morning I finished reading "Equal Rites". It does get better near the end, but (with all due respect to Sir Terry Pratchett) it's a book I will probably never read again. I can't say it's a bad book. It's obviously very well-written, but I found it to be extremely boring... With the exception of Granny Weatherwax, who is by far the most interesting and entertaining character in the book, and every page without her was a chore to endure. I was really glad to learn that she becomes an important part of the series.

Well... Next is "Mort". Many people told me this is when Discworld really starts to shine. I'm looking forward to it!

[farothel]

And if you ever get hooked enough, there are multiple Conventions all over the world. The 'official' one is in the UK (every two years, now less than a month away), but also in the US, Australia (called Nullus Anxietas), Germany and probably some others I don't know about. Terry used to go to quite a lot of them.

[Lemmy]

Mort

Well, I finished "Mort". In 3 days. So good it was that had I not to work, I'd probably have done it in a single day. Putting the book down was always a difficult task! :smallbiggrin:

All characters are interesting and entertaining. And seeing Death having a mid-life crisis was amazing. It's really interesting how he's devoted to his duty, but also intrigued by humanity and somewhat sympathetic to the living (as often as he claims "THERE'S NO JUSTICE, THERE'S JUST ME.", he is clearly displeased by needless death). He grows as a character just like Mort, Ysabel, Keli and Cutwell... And Albert... Hah! I hope he shows up more often! He's definitely a great character! These days, it's not so unusual to see the Grim Reaper depicted in a more humorous fashion, but not only Sir Pratchett did it decades ago, he did it in a way that makes Death not only entertaining, but also... Well... Human.

I also loved the idea of history resisting change and people around barely being able to see and remember someone who should be dead because they somehow know that said someone shouldn't be there.

...And we even get a Rincewind cameo.

To put it more succintly: "Mort" is not only the best Discworld book so far, but definitely one of my all-time favorite books. Another great thing to come from 1987! :smallbiggrin:

I'm now even more excited for what's to come!

Next comes "Sourcery". You set a pretty high bar, Sir Pratchett... Let's see how you live up to it. :smallwink:

[Fyraltari]

Well, I finished "Mort". In 3 days. So good it was that had I not to work, I'd probably have done it in a single day. Putting the book down was always a difficult task! :smallbiggrin:
I remember borrowing those from a friend in highschool and giving them back the next day, having read the whole thing in one go and asking if he could, please, please, please, lend me the next one.
Aaaah. Those were the days.


All characters are interesting and entertaining. And seeing Death having a mid-life crisis was amazing. It's really interesting how he's devoted to his duty, but also intrigued by humanity and somewhat sympathetic to the living (as often as he claims "THERE'S NO JUSTICE, THERE'S JUST ME.", he is clearly displeased by needless death). He grows as a character just like Mort, Ysabel, Keli and Cutwell... And Albert... Hah! I hope he shows up more often! He's definitely a great character! These days, it's not so unusual to see the Grim Reaper depicted in a more humorous fashion, but not only Sir Pratchett did it decades ago, he did it in a way that makes Death not only entertaining, but also... Well... Human.

I also loved the idea of history resisting change and people around barely being able to see and remember someone who should be dead because they somehow know that said someone shouldn't be there.

...And we even get a Rincewind cameo.

To put it more succintly: "Mort" is not only the best Discworld book so far, but definitely one of my all-time favorite books. Another great thing to come from 1987! :smallbiggrin:

I'm now even more excited for what's to come!

Next comes "Sourcery". You set a pretty high bar, Sir Pratchett... Let's see how you live up to it. :smallwink:

Death has a mandatory cameo in all but two books (the french translation had a different joke about him being a man when the word is feminine each time) and several books are centered around him and his family, so don't worry, he has plenty of growth left in him yet.

[tyckspoon]

To put it more succintly: "Mort" is not only the best Discworld book so far, but definitely one of my all-time favorite books. Another great thing to come from 1987! :smallbiggrin:

Next comes "Sourcery". You set a pretty high bar, Sir Pratchett... Let's see how you live up to it. :smallwink:

Sourcery is kind of the last of the 'classic fantasy' parody books, IMO (Although that marker could arguably lay with Guards, Guards) - in particular, the tone and style of the Wizards change dramatically after the events of Sourcery. If you're into Pratchett's depiction of Death, tho, it's only going up from there - he's present in virtually every book to a greater or lesser degree, and there's several more that feature him and his adopted family as lead characters.

[farothel]

Death will return, don't worry. I think he's one of the best characters in the series.

Sourcery has its good points, but it's not the best book in the series by a long margin.

[Fyraltari]

Sourcery is kind of the last of the 'classic fantasy' parody books, IMO (Although that marker could arguably lay with Guards, Guards)

What about The Last Hero?

[Cozzer]

I'm one of the people who don't really care for classical fantasy parody, and started really liking the series from Guards!Guards! onwards, and even for me The Last Hero is great. Terry really outdid himself on that one. :smallbiggrin:

It's in the style of his first books, but with the quality of his best ones.

[RossN]

What about The Last Hero?

I think The Last Hero is a bit different because there is a definite tone about putting that 'classic fantasy' parody back in the past - there is a lot of nostalgic fondness in that book but it is definitely an end of an era vibe.

In contrast Sourcery and to a lesser extent Guards! Guards! are still strongly in that 'classic fantasy' parody style.

As I said before, as someone who honestly did prefer his Ankh-Morpork as more pseudo-medieval than pseudo-Victorian I think there is a genuine charm in the early books even if I concede they are sometimes not as polished as the later stuff.

Anyway Lemmy I'm glad you liked Mort. Sourcery is closer in style to The Light Fantastic than it is to Mort but I enjoyed it a lot and I hope you do too. :smallsmile:

[pendell]

Well, I finished "Mort". In 3 days. So good it was that had I not to work, I'd probably have done it in a single day. Putting the book down was always a difficult task! :smallbiggrin:

All characters are interesting and entertaining. And seeing Death having a mid-life crisis was amazing. It's really interesting how he's devoted to his duty, but also intrigued by humanity and somewhat sympathetic to the living (as often as he claims "THERE'S NO JUSTICE, THERE'S JUST ME.", he is clearly displeased by needless death). He grows as a character just like Mort, Ysabel, Keli and Cutwell... And Albert... Hah! I hope he shows up more often! He's definitely a great character! These days, it's not so unusual to see the Grim Reaper depicted in a more humorous fashion, but not only Sir Pratchett did it decades ago, he did it in a way that makes Death not only entertaining, but also... Well... Human.

I also loved the idea of history resisting change and people around barely being able to see and remember someone who should be dead because they somehow know that said someone shouldn't be there.

...And we even get a Rincewind cameo.

To put it more succintly: "Mort" is not only the best Discworld book so far, but definitely one of my all-time favorite books. Another great thing to come from 1987! :smallbiggrin:

I'm now even more excited for what's to come!

Next comes "Sourcery". You set a pretty high bar, Sir Pratchett... Let's see how you live up to it. :smallwink:

If you liked Mort, make sure you read Reaper Man and Hogfather, since it follows the same plotline and characters.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

Soul Music, between Reaper Man and Hogfather, is important - since several of the main characters in Hogfather besides Death, made their debut there.

[Ibrinar]

Any suggestions about what to read next? Should I just stick qith publication order? What do y'all think?

I intend to reread them in publication order soon and in your position I would just stick with it unless/until you feel the desire to read more about a specific group. I don't think there are any I would leave out entirely so just taking them in order works.

[lord_khaine]

Sourcery is kind of the last of the 'classic fantasy' parody books, IMO (Although that marker could arguably lay with Guards, Guards) - in particular, the tone and style of the Wizards change dramatically after the events of Sourcery. If you're into Pratchett's depiction of Death, tho, it's only going up from there - he's present in virtually every book to a greater or lesser degree, and there's several more that feature him and his adopted family as lead characters.


It is actually one of the changes i liked the least. It more or less removed the majority of the magic from the world. And kinda turned the remaining wizards into a group of clowns most of the time.

[dehro]

It's interesting to see a first time reader and I'll be following your updates and reviews/opinions .. and maybe re-read for the umpteenth time some of my favourites (Thief of time, the fifth elephant, Jingo, the wee free men, Pyramids, Interesting times, The truth.. I would be hard pressed to shortlist only a couple favourites)

[Calemyr]

The Discworld series is an absolute favorite of mine.

I think Sourcery is the last of the "Satire" era books, where Pratchett was focused on making fun of fantasy cliches. After Sourcery, his style lends more towards world building, where characters stop being one-off jokes and develop into consistent and coherent individuals that you can really follow. Different groups get different types of stories, so if you lean towards something you'll find particular characters really up your alley.

Sourcery itself is pretty good, in my opinion, but you'll probably begin to notice the satire growing thin, with the focus shifting to the characters even as they make fun of old cliches.

After Sourcery, well, I believe it gets infinitely better. Pratchett starts actually building the world, populating it with characters rather than one-off jokes. Esmerelda Weatherwax gets her coven, who really round her out and add up to great stories. We get the Night Watch, who develop over their books from the finest group of useless misfits you might care to root for into something that needs to be read to be believed. We get Susan, who... is Susan. And awesome. Rincewind stops being a focal character for the most part, but the books he leads are much better. We get the Auditors. We get a more sane University. And if you think Death is an interesting fellow now...

Of the entire series, I think my personal favorites are Thief of Time and Night Watch. Thief of Time is just frickin' epic, pairing two of the greatest low-key badasses of the series against a threat nobody but them could even imagine. Night Watch, on the other hand, is a wonderfully personal story taking a personal favorite character of mine and putting them through a trial that puts everything they are and everything they believe to the test. After that, I'd say Carpe Jugulum, which also really puts its characters to the fire in order to show what they truly are. Runner ups would be Small Gods (an interesting book with long term consequences to the series) as well as Going Postal and Making Money (because I really love watching the main character when he's on his game).

The weaker ones, I think, are Equal Rites (which doesn't really matter beyond introducing Granny), Pyramids (very good as a one-off, but doesn't add much overall), and Snuff (which at times drops clever parody for flat out preaching). I don't know if Faust Eric really should count, given its pedigree, but it isn't all that engaging, going back the old Satire days.

That said, there are moments of pure gold in every book.

[Fyraltari]

It's still satire but of other things than classic Sword & Sorcery. Wyrd Sisters satirizes Shakespear, Carpe Jugulum satirizes Hammer movies and vampire stories, etc etc.

[Calemyr]

It's still satire but of other things than classic Sword & Sorcery. Wyrd Sisters satirizes Shakespear, Carpe Jugulum satirizes Hammer movies and vampire stories, etc etc.

Oh, yes. Satire is definitely part of the story, but it plays a totally different role. The early books are defined by satire - story takes a back seat to the joke. Every character, every scene, every line exists to extend the joke. The later books are informed by satire. The plot is derived in response to an idea and, as a proper satire, takes the idea to absurd degrees to see where where the idea cracks. But the characters aren't part of the joke, they're players reacting to it. I'm not sure how to explain it. Like... take Witches Abroad, okay? It has a very clear theme. But Granny is Granny. She reacts to events the way Granny would. Some great jokes are told, and she has a part in them, but it's a Granny Weatherwax part. The theme exists, but it's the characters that shape the theme and not the theme that shapes the characters.

Then take Color of Magic. Rincewind is the inverse of a hero forced into the role of a hero. Twoflower is a reversal of the wise traveler from afar. Herena the Henna Haired Harridan is a pointed jab at fantasy's rather blatant history of fan service (This barbarian heroine doesn't wear fetish leather armor, and she wears sensible boots! Sensible boots!). Cohen is the end point of extrapolating the barbarian hero cliche to it's logical conclusion. Every character is defined by the book's theme. They're not actors on the stage, they're set dressing. Even grand old Granny herself was defined by the theme of Equal Rites, as the sensible, earthy female counterpart to the haughty, disconnected wizards. Pratchett made good use of her afterwards, but her creation was in service to the story rather than the story existing to let her stand out.

Now take Sam. Sam was created to fill a role in the themes of Guards! Guards!, to play the role of the bitter loser cursed with some modicum of dignity. However, Sam isn't a passive player in the story, or at least he doesn't stay that way. He gets mad. "If someone's going to burn my city to the ground, it's gonna be me, dammit!" He takes an active role in events. He plays the role he chooses rather than the role he was given, and the story is forced to bend to accommodate him. All he needed was one thing he'd lost long ago: an optimistic perspective.

I hope this makes sense. It's so clear in my head, but it's hard to explain it so that it doesn't come off as semantics. Basically, the first few books were Satire with some characters in the background to give the Satire teeth, and the later books were character stories where the adventures they undertake are dripping with satire. It's all about where the emphasis is.

Does that make sense?

[Bohandas]

The first few books aren't bad, but they're a little all over the place. The Night Watch 'series' is a good jumping on point overall, to be read in order: Guards! Guards! (book 8), Theatre of Cruelty (apparently? I've never read this one), Men At Arms, Feet of Clay, Jingo, The Fifth Elephant, Thud!, and Snuff.

Vimes is the closest the series comes to having a main character besides perhaps Death IMO.

If you want more Rincewind, there's also Sourcerer and Interesting Times.

Well, there's a bunch of sub-series to Discworld, each with it's own main protagonist or primary recurrig character. The protagonists include Rincewind, Vimes, Granny & Nanny, Death & Susan, Lu-Tze, Tiffany, and Moist.

[Ravens_cry]

The first I read was Night Watch, because I loved the cover, though, as a starter, I can't say I recommend it, though I still love Sam Vimes a lot. Definitely a great example of curmudgeonly Lawful Good.
I'd start with Reaper Man, myself. The early books were fun parodies of fantasy tropes, but not all that meaty. Repear Man got meaty, ironically in a way given that the main character happens to lack any.

[RossN]

The Discworld series is an absolute favorite of mine.

I think Sourcery is the last of the "Satire" era books, where Pratchett was focused on making fun of fantasy cliches. After Sourcery, his style lends more towards world building, where characters stop being one-off jokes and develop into consistent and coherent individuals that you can really follow. Different groups get different types of stories, so if you lean towards something you'll find particular characters really up your alley.

Sourcery itself is pretty good, in my opinion, but you'll probably begin to notice the satire growing thin, with the focus shifting to the characters even as they make fun of old cliches.

After Sourcery, well, I believe it gets infinitely better. Pratchett starts actually building the world, populating it with characters rather than one-off jokes. Esmerelda Weatherwax gets her coven, who really round her out and add up to great stories. We get the Night Watch, who develop over their books from the finest group of useless misfits you might care to root for into something that needs to be read to be believed. We get Susan, who... is Susan. And awesome. Rincewind stops being a focal character for the most part, but the books he leads are much better. We get the Auditors. We get a more sane University. And if you think Death is an interesting fellow now...

Of the entire series, I think my personal favorites are Thief of Time and Night Watch. Thief of Time is just frickin' epic, pairing two of the greatest low-key badasses of the series against a threat nobody but them could even imagine. Night Watch, on the other hand, is a wonderfully personal story taking a personal favorite character of mine and putting them through a trial that puts everything they are and everything they believe to the test. After that, I'd say Carpe Jugulum, which also really puts its characters to the fire in order to show what they truly are. Runner ups would be Small Gods (an interesting book with long term consequences to the series) as well as Going Postal and Making Money (because I really love watching the main character when he's on his game).

The weaker ones, I think, are Equal Rites (which doesn't really matter beyond introducing Granny), Pyramids (very good as a one-off, but doesn't add much overall), and Snuff (which at times drops clever parody for flat out preaching). I don't know if Faust Eric really should count, given its pedigree, but it isn't all that engaging, going back the old Satire days.

That said, there are moments of pure gold in every book.

There is a lot to that, even if I think I probably enjoy the Satire-era more than you do, but I feel there is also a sense that Pratchett abandoned a lot of the medieval/heroic fantasy trappings in favour of a sort of pseudo-Victorian/industrial revolution aesthetic from Soul Music on. Obviously tastes vary but personally I thought that was a shame. I like my Disc a bit more D&D and Conanesque and that really started to wane after Sourcery.

Susan actually represents many of those issues in a microcosm but I can't really get into it without getting into spoiler territory.

[Bohandas]

https://www.lspace.org/main.html : a fan site with suggested reading order (not fully up to date) and also annotations and quotes (again, not completely up to date).

Also a lot of the page numbers given in the annotations for the early books are from editions that I think may be out of print

[veti]

The Discworld series is an absolute favorite of mine.

This much, I agree with. Almost everything else in this post, I vehemently disagree with.

Which is why it's a good idea just to read in publication order, and not listen too much to any other opinions until you've formed your own. And always remember, feel free to stop or take a break at any time. Even at his productive peak, Pratchett only published two books a year - so if you read them any faster than that, you're binging.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

The only other real misses from the main body of his work would be Eric and Pyramids. Both enjoyable enough, but not on par with the other books he was writing at the time.

Pyramids was the first one I read, and I loved it despite not actually really getting the ending. (The level of English in the books is pretty high for a non-native teenager, and the style of the stories encourages fast reading.) In fact I might have loved it so much precisely because it's such a self contained entry. But all the running and jumping certainly helps as well.

If anything my least superfavorite entries are probably the man in the golden hat/Moist von Lipwig books. He certainly has his moments, but he's also a bit too much of a cheap con artist who doesn't seem to know what he's doing who constantly succeeds anyway to my taste. Compared to someone like Vimes his victories don't always feel earned.

Although Pratchett did use this character to write change into Discworld, like he was working towards some sort of ending to the series, and that aspect comes out pretty interesting even despite his declining mental state while working on the later books.

[Wraith]

Although Pratchett did use this character to write change into Discworld, like he was working towards some sort of ending to the series, and that aspect comes out pretty interesting even despite his declining mental state while working on the later books.

This is something that I always felt was going to happen, too. As the series went on...

...Terry was writing in more and more anachronisms, getting further and further away from the medieval setting and out the other side of the Victorian era. It seemed to me to be only a matter of time until someone discovered electricity, at which point Ankh Morpork and all the other cities became "real world" cities.

With the machine era in full swing, with the more mystical characters dying off, with the clacks being an equivalent to texting and so on, magic was slowly being removed from the world until it became... normal. And I think I mean that literally; Dwarfs and trolls would slowly stop being dwarf and trolls in the biological sense, and the wizards would slowly become just a normal - if eccentric - university, until the Discworld ended up right where it began in 1980's Britain, with the same subcultures thinly disguised as they battled the same social problems.

Anyway. Discworld good, Alzheimer's bad; see rest of series for details. If you read Hogfather over Christmas, by the way, it gets a lot funnier - I try to do it every year, if I can. :smalltongue:

[dehro]

I think the natural destination for that particular evolution in Discworld society would have been, at least from an aestetic and functional point of view, a steampunk alternative to our reality. This makes sense in light of the fact that our reality already coexists with the Discworld "in universe".. and sits in a snowglobe on a shelf somewhere at the UU. I think that if Pratchett had had the time, he would have brought together his "discworld science" books and the regular ones, and comparing the Discworld to our world would have become yet another in universe recurring theme, rather than "just" being the writer's guilty pleasure.
What I wonder is how much input his assistant had on the form, style and content of the final books... but that's a question that will probably never find a satisfying answer.

[farothel]

Also a lot of the page numbers given in the annotations for the early books are from editions that I think may be out of print

That's quite possible, since a lot of these annotations date back to Usenet group alt.fan.pratchett started in the 90s (Terry himself was often on there in those days to add to discussions). So it's quite possible the page numbers are indeed from first editions, although I don't think they will be off by much.
For me it's also less of an issue since I don't really look at the page numbers, knowing enough of the books to remember most of the lines (yes, I've reread them that often).

[RossN]

This is something that I always felt was going to happen, too. As the series went on...

...Terry was writing in more and more anachronisms, getting further and further away from the medieval setting and out the other side of the Victorian era. It seemed to me to be only a matter of time until someone discovered electricity, at which point Ankh Morpork and all the other cities became "real world" cities.

With the machine era in full swing, with the more mystical characters dying off, with the clacks being an equivalent to texting and so on, magic was slowly being removed from the world until it became... normal. And I think I mean that literally; Dwarfs and trolls would slowly stop being dwarf and trolls in the biological sense, and the wizards would slowly become just a normal - if eccentric - university, until the Discworld ended up right where it began in 1980's Britain, with the same subcultures thinly disguised as they battled the same social problems.

While I'd personally have absolutely hated that direction, I think that seems pretty plausible. :smalleek:

[Mightymosy]

Just reading Wyrd Sisters.
Half way through, and I like it better than Equal Rites and Sourcery, so far.

Granny Weatherwax is an awesome character :-D
If not for being a grumpy selfish old lady (and a witch), we'd have a lot in common :-D

I really like how she doesn't give a f*ck about what other people seem to be important for whatever reasons. Sure, then again she has some weird ideas of whats wrong and whats right on her own, but thats what Pratchet does right: protagonists need flaws to be likable!

[Calemyr]

This much, I agree with. Almost everything else in this post, I vehemently disagree with.

Which is why it's a good idea just to read in publication order, and not listen too much to any other opinions until you've formed your own. And always remember, feel free to stop or take a break at any time. Even at his productive peak, Pratchett only published two books a year - so if you read them any faster than that, you're binging.

Absolutely right. Chronological order is good. Not all the books will be winners, but you never know which ones will strike a chord with you. One person's favorite will be someone else's least, and one person's trash will be another's treasure. That's how life is in general, but it's doubly true on the Disc.

[JohnSmith80]

I just started getting into Pratchet. I read the first book and Mort and I'd like to read more, but from what I understand there's more than one main plotline, yes?

[dehro]

I just started getting into Pratchet. I read the first book and Mort and I'd like to read more, but from what I understand there's more than one main plotline, yes?

there isn't a main plotline. each book is self-contained. But time goes on and many characters are reprised in different stages of their lives. Today's Corporal in the Night Watch will be tomorrow's Sergeant and so on... Society also evolves and a technological advancement explored and plot-relevant in one book might become background and taken for granted later on. This tends to be rather minimal and shouldn't affect reader enjoyement in a negative way (at most you won't notice a joke or two)
Reading them in publication order allows you to stay temporarily speaking on track and not miss the occasional inside-joke that might refer to staples of one or the other character that have been established in another book. That said, they're perfectly readable in whatever order... and plotwise each book really explores a separate theme (or multiples).

[Calemyr]

I just started getting into Pratchet. I read the first book and Mort and I'd like to read more, but from what I understand there's more than one main plotline, yes?


there isn't a main plotline. each book is self-contained. But time goes on and many characters are reprised in different stages of their lives. Today's Corporal in the Night Watch will be tomorrow's Sergeant and so on... Society also evolves and a technological advancement explored and plot-relevant in one book might become background and taken for granted later on. This tends to be rather minimal and shouldn't affect reader enjoyement in a negative way (at most you won't notice a joke or two)
Reading them in publication order allows you to stay temporarily speaking on track and not miss the occasional inside-joke that might refer to staples of one or the other character that have been established in another book. That said, they're perfectly readable in whatever order... and plotwise each book really explores a separate theme (or multiples).

Agreed. Think of it as one series with multiple threads, each with their own style and focus. Rincewind has his books, where he fumbles his way to victory by trying to run away from the fight. The Night Watch has their books, where they struggle to go from a vestigial gang of losers into a genuine police force in an odd cross between a police procedural and the Police Academy movies. Granny has her books, where she and her coven match their talents against various kinds of power. Susan has her books, where she deals with the collision between mythology and common sense. The University has their books, where they deal with Wild Ideas as they wreak havoc on the Disc. Then there's Moist von Lipwig, a conman who learns the greatest con of all time is civil service.

And they do intertwine, a little. The effects of Small Gods is seen frequently in books following it, such as in the characters of Visit and Oats. Pratchett lamented more than once that it was hard to write stories in Ankh-Morpork after a while because the Watch would be obliged to steal the show. Death shows up everywhere, including a couple more books of his own. Then there are other characters, such as the Canting Crew, who never take main stage but play a role in a number of books.

[Bohandas]

That's quite possible, since a lot of these annotations date back to Usenet group alt.fan.pratchett started in the 90s (Terry himself was often on there in those days to add to discussions). So it's quite possible the page numbers are indeed from first editions, although I don't think they will be off by much.
For me it's also less of an issue since I don't really look at the page numbers, knowing enough of the books to remember most of the lines (yes, I've reread them that often).

I remember them being off from the edition I had. Though, as you said, they remain useful even without the oage numbers

[Manga Shoggoth]

I hope this makes sense. It's so clear in my head, but it's hard to explain it so that it doesn't come off as semantics. Basically, the first few books were Satire with some characters in the background to give the Satire teeth, and the later books were character stories where the adventures they undertake are dripping with satire. It's all about where the emphasis is.

Does that make sense?

Actually, the TCOM wasn't satire, but parody (of four specific genres, corresponding to the four parts of the book), and TLF was a general parody of fantasy (or, indeed, a straight fantasy). The satire started to dominate with Equal Rites, and was in full swing a few books later once Pratchett found his feet.

[Lemmy]

Sourcery

This thread became quite lively! Thanks for your interest and thoughts, everyone!

In any case, I finished "Sourcery" today... It's not as good as "Mort", but it's still a very fun read. I like the premise, but it's Rincewind's fumbling cowardice and (VERY) reluctant heroism that steal the show... It's not quite as funny as the other Rincewind appearances, but it's definitely better written. The first two books made me laugh but they feel like a flow of mostly random, unconnected events, while "Sourcery" has a definite plot and story structure.

Rincewind companions are a blast, as usual. Conina and Nijel are very entertaining, and of course, who could not love The Luggage? And everything about the four horsemen was hilarious! Not to mention The Librarian, who could probably have a book of his own!

But it's near the end that the book becomes really intense and Rincewind's character truly shines!

I love how he decides to fight the Sourcerer even though he has no chance of winning. I love how he goes on to do it armed with nothing but a brick in a sock. I love how he immediately gives up on the idea, not out of fear... But because he sees the Sourcerer is just a kid. I love how he sacrifices himself to save said kid. I love how he does it not with words of inspiring bravery, but of begrudging acceptance of his fate... Most of all, I love how he seemingly gives up on the idea of controlling his own life, and kind accepts that his existence will always be pestered by danger and adventure... And that some times, even a coward gotta do what he gotta do.

Another great book from Sir Pratchett. Not his finest work, but still a top quality story!

Next is "Wyrd Sisters". I'm told Granny Weatherwax returns in this book... So here's hoping she has a major share of the spotlight. She was by far and away the best part of "Equal Rites"!

[Rynjin]

Wyrd Sisters is great.

[RossN]

Glad you liked Sourcery Lemmy! While I'd agree it's not absolute top tier I think it is underrated and aside from being funny it is surprisingly emotionally effective at times. Quite honestly I was rooting for Rincewind and Conina to get together. :smallsmile:

It also basically peak 'Heroic Fantasy'-era Dicworld, which as I've said before always held a lot more charm for me than the pseudo-Victorian Discworld that shows up later, even if I concede there is a lot about the later books that is probably objectively better.

Anyway enjoy Wyrd Sisters! I liked it a lot, and I think you will too!

[Calemyr]

Yep, Granny is a major player in Wyrd Sisters. She gets two sidekicks (because witches are better in threes), but Granny is the star of the show. It's not my favorite of the Witches books, probably the worst outside of Equal Rites. But it's still on the top half of the list, because the Witches books are consistently great. Word of warning, though: Wyrd Sisters draws heavily off of Shakespeare, so the more you know about his plays, the funnier the book is.

And, yeah, Rincewind's clash against Coin is superb for its subtle bravery and raw humanity. It gets referenced in a later book, too. During a heated debate between wizards, one of onlookers notes that the last time this happened it took Rincewind with a brick in his sock to save the day. When the argument calms down, he looks over at Rincewind to find him struggling to quietly put his sock back on.

And his grudging acceptance of his fate is definitely funny. And it makes sense, seeing as he met his patron goddess at the end of Color of Magic. With the Lady at your back, you might as well just give up and hope you survive the ride.

[Androgeus]

Always good to see another fan in the making, I do have one stupid nitpick though.


Sir Pratchett

That should be Sir Terry.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Always good to see another fan in the making, I do have one stupid nitpick though.



That should be Sir Terry.

Although I'm sure he'd have been humored by "Sir Terry of Pratchett, Lord of the Disc, High Patrician of Ankh-Morpork".

[farothel]

Although I'm sure he'd have been humored by "Sir Terry of Pratchett, Lord of the Disc, High Patrician of Ankh-Morpork".

You could just say Terry, especially if you arrive with a drink for him in your hand.

Anyway, back to Wyrd Sisters. indeed, it runs heavily on Shakespeare and I also agree that it's not the best of the Witches books (for me that's Witches Abroad) but it has a lot of preparations for the later books in it like the relationships between the witches and what will happen later with Magrat also started here (I'm not going to elaborate to avoid spoilers).

[Mightymosy]

You could just say Terry, especially if you arrive with a drink for him in your hand.

Anyway, back to Wyrd Sisters. indeed, it runs heavily on Shakespeare and I also agree that it's not the best of the Witches books (for me that's Witches Abroad) but it has a lot of preparations for the later books in it like the relationships between the witches and what will happen later with Magrat also started here (I'm not going to elaborate to avoid spoilers).

Witches Abroad is awesome. It contains my favourite moment in the series so far, but I dont want to spoil it for people :-)

[Braininthejar2]

Good Omens made me an atheist.

[Cozzer]

My favorite Witches book is Lords and Ladies, so many good Magrat moments... Unless we count Tiffany's books, since The Wee Free Men is one of my top-tier PTerry books.

[Calemyr]

Witches Abroad is awesome. It contains my favourite moment in the series so far, but I dont want to spoil it for people :-)

I'm spoiled for choice as to which moment that is:

* I want an alligator sandwich and make it snappy.
* Nanny and her new friend comparing familiars.
* Saturday going all out.
* Fun tricks with Voodoo and Headology.
* Finding the real you. (Right here. Duh.)
* Nanny and the Errant Farmhouse.
* Puss in Boots, the Mature Edition.
* Magrat and the Snakes.
* Nanny's letters home.
* Cripple Mister Onion.
* A Cameo by Gollum.
* The raw and repeated jabs at popular fairy tales.
* Genua represented as a two layer cross between Disney World and New Orleans.


Man, that was a great book. Still rank it under Lords and Ladies and Carpe Jugulum, but it's a rapid fire blast of great moments.

[Wraith]

While on the subject of best/favourite books, I'm curious as to what everyone has as their favourite stories by "plot line", just to see if mine match up. They are...

Watchmen: Night Watch
Rincewind/Wizards: Interesting Times
Death/Susan: Hogfather
The Witches: Maskerade
Moist: Going Postal
One-offs: A tough choice, but probably.... The Truth

Anyone else, or am I just 'wrong'? :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

Hm..

Witches: Lords and Ladies
Watch: Night Watch
Moist: Going Postal
Death: Hogfather
Rincewind: Does Last Hero count? Otherwise, Sourcery
One-off: Hrng. Too hard. The Truth, Monstrous Regiment...

[Calemyr]

Watchmen: Night Watch (I mean, seriously...)
Witches: Carpe Jugulum (Mainly for Granny and Oates. The story is better in Lords and Ladies, but I love Granny and Oates in Carpe Jugulum.)
Moist: Going Postal (Making Money follows too many of the same beats.)
Death & Susan: Thief of Time (Worth it for the Riding of the Five alone.)
Rincewind & the Wizards: Interesting Times (A wonderful return to Color of Magic.)
One-Offs: Small Gods (Interesting take on religion, with a lot of awesome scenes and lines. "Is 'one' more or less than 'fifty'?" "They are the same!")

Hogfather definitely deserves a mention though. It reminded me of a story Pratchett told at one point. He got a letter from a terminally ill fan who stated that they only hoped the real Grim Reaper was as good a guy as Pratchett's version. He then added that letters like that tend to leave him staring blankly at a wall for some time.

[Bohandas]

Does Thief of Time count as Death/Susan or one-off?

[Calemyr]

Does Thief of Time count as Death/Susan or one-off?

I'd say it has to be a Death/Susan book. It has both of them as focal characters, the Auditors, and a mythic focus, the hallmarks of a Death/Susan book.

No Albert, but we get Lu-Tze, and that's a fair trade. Pairing Susan and Lu-Tze together is just... so wonderful. The playful but wizened old sage clashing with the no-nonsense teacher that sees right through him*. Lu-Tze gets more focus here than any other book he shows up in, but he's still not carrying the story. He's one third of the narrative, and even then he's playing opaque support to someone else.

* I don't think Lu-Tze is ever shown to be intimidated by anything until he met Susan. End of the world? Not even on his top ten list of apocalypses. Forgotten Ancient Embodiments of Fear? Meh. If they can talk, they can be persuaded. Susan? Holy crap, just talking to her makes me feel like I got caught misbehaving! I never get caught.

[Cozzer]

My favorite Witches Abroad moment is "See, when Granny uses words like 'nobody' or 'everybody', she always means 'except me, of course'. That's what being a witch is". That just explains so well everything Granny is.

About favorite books...
Watchmen: Men at Arms (Carrot is my favorite Discworld character, honorable mention to The Fifth Elephant)
Witches: Lords and Ladies
Rincewind & the Wizards: Interesting Times (Rincewind actually has a character arc and development, while still being Rincewind)
Tiffany series: The wee free men
One-Offs: Small Gods, with The amazing Maurice and his educated rodents as a close second.

[Mightymosy]

I'm spoiled for choice as to which moment that is:

* I want an alligator sandwich and make it snappy.
* Nanny and her new friend comparing familiars.
* Saturday going all out.
* Fun tricks with Voodoo and Headology.
* Finding the real you. (Right here. Duh.)
* Nanny and the Errant Farmhouse.
* Puss in Boots, the Mature Edition.
* Magrat and the Snakes.
* Nanny's letters home.
* Cripple Mister Onion.
* A Cameo by Gollum.
* The raw and repeated jabs at popular fairy tales.
* Genua represented as a two layer cross between Disney World and New Orleans.


Man, that was a great book. Still rank it under Lords and Ladies and Carpe Jugulum, but it's a rapid fire blast of great moments.

#5. Easily one of the best kickass character driven victories with a nice dose of "in your face" for the behavior that is parodied (in the opponent)

[RossN]

Watchmen: Guards! Guards! (Runner up: Night Watch)
Rincewind/Wizards: Interesting Times (Runner up: The Light Fantastic or possibly Moving Pictures if it 'counts' as a Wizard book rather than a stand alone.)
Death/Susan: Reaper Man (Runner up: Mort. I'm not a big fan of Susan unfortunately; I find her personality a bit grating. Still of the Susan books probably Thief of Time.)
The Witches: Lords and Ladies (Runner up: Carpe Jugulum)
Moist: Going Postal (Runner up: Making Money by default. Moist is another character I'm just not a fan of and like Susan he came along during the industrial revolution stage of the Disc which as I've said before I was never happy with.)
One-offs: Small Gods by a mile; not that the other one of books aren't good but Small Gods is maybe the best book in the whole run. (Runner up: The Last Hero or Moving Pictures - though again that might count as a 'Wizard' book.)

[Kato]

It's nice to watch someone discover the series and share their impressions. I'll be sure to keep an eye on this.

It's been a while since I read EQ and I will admit to not remembering terribly much of it but I also don't remember anything that makes me think it's one of the weaker ones. IIRC I've heard it was one of his first big successes (in part because apparently women's rights activists praised it assuming Terry was a lady's name)

Also, while I'm terrible at picking favorites but I feel like this is as good a time as any..

Watchmen: Night Watch (I mean, seriously...)

"Seriously" what? Yes, everybody and their mother loves NW and puts it on the top of Discworld canon and I don't get it. I feel it's severely overrated. Which is in no way saying it's a bad book, but I fail to grasp why it seems to stand out to so many. Yes, it has a lot of good parts in it, but even just among the Guard books I'd rate books like Jingo, MaA or even Thud above it. And in the whole series it would be placed even lower.
Again, that's not a "NW sucks" statement, I just don't know where the general consensus comes from.

[farothel]

Watchmen: Jingo
Rincewind/Wizards: Interesting Times
Death/Susan: Soulmusic and Thief of Time
The Witches: Witches Abroad (but that's probably because they did a musical of that during the last UK Discworld con which was epic). Back-up Maskerade.
Moist: Going Postal
One-offs: Moving pictures (I count that one as a one-off despite the wizards being in it, they are not the focus of the book)

[Calemyr]

"Seriously" what? Yes, everybody and their mother loves NW and puts it on the top of Discworld canon and I don't get it. I feel it's severely overrated. Which is in no way saying it's a bad book, but I fail to grasp why it seems to stand out to so many. Yes, it has a lot of good parts in it, but even just among the Guard books I'd rate books like Jingo, MaA or even Thud above it. And in the whole series it would be placed even lower.
Again, that's not a "NW sucks" statement, I just don't know where the general consensus comes from.

I'm trying to be at least a little sensitive to new readers, seeing as that is the foundation of the thread. So I don't want to go into details. That said, I found NW to be the most personal character study of the franchise, taking Sam Vimes, an already well developed character, and breaking him down piece by piece and challenging everything he is.

Death may very well be the best character in the series, but Nightwatch displayed Sam Vimes in such detail that he immediately became my second favorite. He gets a little derailed in Snuff, I'll admit, but he remains my second favorite.

[Lemmy]

I'm torn. I like reading everyone's thoughts and comments on Discworld, but I also want to avoid bias (and spoilers).

I want to form my opinion on each book on my own, without external influence... So that I can later see and compare how much (or how little) it matches everyone else's. I think that will make my Discworld experience more genuine and, with some luck, also more interesting for readers of this thread.

OTOH, I love seeing how diverse are everyone's "List of Favorites" and how each person has greater love for a different phase of the Discworld series. It makes me think that no matter what any fan likes, Sir Terry Pratchett managed to give each of them an unique, but relatable experience. That makes me even more avid to keep reading! It also encourages me to pay even more attention to each detail... I don't wanna miss anything!

I specially enjoy hearing about Sir Terry Pratchett and his writing process. It's fascinating. I often saw interviews and quotes from him, but having not read the books, I couldn't pinpoint many of the specifics and often missed the context.

So I just ask everyone to avoid spoilers (or at least to "spolierize" them). Although general comments about individual books and/or the Discworld series as a whole are perfectly fine (and quite interesting, in fact).

In any case, I once again thank you all for your interest and participation in this thread. It's good to see so many fans of this series that I'm slowly but steadily growing to love. I regret not having read the Discworld books earlier, but I also humbly hope that my experience creates something entertaining for others.

I started reading "Wyrd Sisters" today, so it's still too early to form a full opinion, but I already love having Granny Weatherwax (and her coven) on the main stage... Heh.

[farothel]

As I said, I go to Discworld cons (in the UK anyway) and there are about 700 people with 800 opinions on what's the best book and why. So that's very normal.

I've tried not to give spoilers, although I might have given some things away and I apologize for that. I'll wait until you have read a book before I give away any special things I might know about it (and I do know a couple of trivia facts about certain books that might be interesting).

[pendell]

I'm torn. I like reading everyone's thoughts and comments on Discworld, but I also want to avoid bias (and spoilers).

... Snip ...


I'd like to put out another set of books by Sir Terry in addition to those put forward so far.

The standalone Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents is pretty darn good. Maybe not the best, but a great standalone read even if Maurice is sort of an earlier version of Moist Von Lipwig. Special mention to both Dangerous Beans and Darktan as well.

I'm also surprised there's no love for Tiffany Aching: Wee Free Men, Hat Full of Sky, and Wintersmith. Granny Weatherwax and her colleagues show up in these books also, but as supporting cast rather than as the main characters; these are Tiffany's stories, not theirs. And they are coming of age stories, good ones. Hat Full of Sky especially I would recommend for someone considering a ministry vocation, because the stuff Tiffany has to do is a lot of what that job is about ... even if that is somewhat ironic, given the subject matter :smallamused:

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[2D8HP]

...I started reading "Wyrd Sisters" today, so it's still too early to form a full opinion, but I already love having Granny Weatherwax (and her coven) on the main stage... Heh.


Good book, but the series gets even better!

If you skip ahead to Lords & Ladies (which really does flat out ROCK!), that's forgivable, but reading them in order does make them better.

...I'm also surprised there's no love for Tiffany Aching: Wee Free Men, Hat Full of Sky, and Wintersmith....


"No love"?

Since when?

I cited most of the Tiffany Aching series as among my "standouts" way up-thread:


Really?

I liked Equal Rites more than anything with much of Rincewind.

Off the top of my head Lords & Ladies is my favorite, but reading Wyrd Sisters, and Witches Abroad sets it up (as does Equal Rites to lesser extent), otherwise I thought that

Mort

Guards! Guards!

Men at Arms

Hogfather

The Last Hero

Night Watch

The Wee Free Men

A Hat Full of Sky

Wintersmith,

and

I Shall Wear Midnight

were all standouts in the series.

[Florian]

A weird side note:

I´ve read all Discworld novels in both, their UK english and german translated versions when they became available.

I´ll chime in with the crowd that the Sam Vimes stories are the ones with the greatest depth and are the more enjoyable one, especially compared to the early novels.

I must also say that Discworld is one of the rare cases when the transition is actually better than the original by adding more depth and gravitas to it. It´s the small things: Sam Vimes is translated as Samuel Mumm. Mumm has a very specific meaning, it being the stubborn heroic of the small folks.
Also, the Patrician comes over as way more reasonable, but also way more cold-blooded, which fits the character.

[farothel]

I can agree that the translations are very good and often add their own little things.
Like in the French one you have a footnote with Death because it's a clearly male character, but in French it's la Mort (female). It says 'la Mort est masculain parce que c'est un mal nécessaire' (death is male because it's a necessary evil). The word mal is pronounced the same as the word 'mâle' (male in English), so it can also read as 'necessary male'.

In 'The colour of magic' you have Twoflower explaining economics to Rincewind (revertebrating sounds of underground spirits or echo-gnomics). In the Dutch translation that becomes 'boomknaagdieren die aardgeesten nadoen' of 'eekhoorn-gnomie' (squirrel-gnomics in a literal translation) which resonates with the Dutch word for economics which is economie.

It's those little things that make the translations good. Also I think they tried to get one translator for each country and stick with this person for the whole series, which makes the quality better. At least in the Dutch translations they did this.

[dehro]

A weird side note:

I´ve read all Discworld novels in both, their UK english and german translated versions when they became available.

I´ll chime in with the crowd that the Sam Vimes stories are the ones with the greatest depth and are the more enjoyable one, especially compared to the early novels.

I must also say that Discworld is one of the rare cases when the transition is actually better than the original by adding more depth and gravitas to it. It´s the small things: Sam Vimes is translated as Samuel Mumm. Mumm has a very specific meaning, it being the stubborn heroic of the small folks.
Also, the Patrician comes over as way more reasonable, but also way more cold-blooded, which fits the character.

this reminds me of the first couple of discworld books that I read, which happened in Italian. Back then, I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the translations. Fantasy doesn't always get a great treatment by Italian publishers, yet this author was handled by someone who was able to preserve quite a lot of the comedy, which in Pratchett's case is so intimately connected to the use of language that it was no small feat.
That said, I did drop the Italian versions for the original ones as soon as I had the opportunity to hit a british bookstore.

[Manga Shoggoth]

I started reading "Wyrd Sisters" today, so it's still too early to form a full opinion, but I already love having Granny Weatherwax (and her coven) on the main stage... Heh.

Wyrd Sisters is pretty much the point where Pratchett stopped writing parody or straight humourous fantasy, and started to write seriously good books. There is a huge uptick in the quality of his writing, starting here and the series gets better from there.

[Fyraltari]

I just want to say that when I heard that Sir Terry had passed away, I cried a river. I never met him but it felt like a friend was gone.

And reading that scene in Shepherd's Crown (you know the scene) mad me tear up again.

GNU Terry Pratchett.

[Spacewolf]

I just want to say that when I heard that Sir Terry had passed away, I cried a river. I never met him but it felt like a friend was gone.

And reading that scene in Shepherd's Crown (you know the scene) mad me tear up again.

GNU Terry Pratchett.

The BBC did a thing on him after he had died that included an interview with Neil Gaiman which was pretty emotional. If you havn't see it I'd recommend it.

[Fyraltari]

I'll look it up, thank you.

[Mightymosy]

If there's justice in the multiverse, he now sits in one of the nicest places in all of the diskworld.

[Lemmy]

As I said, I go to Discworld cons (in the UK anyway) and there are about 700 people with 800 opinions on what's the best book and why. So that's very normal.

I've tried not to give spoilers, although I might have given some things away and I apologize for that. I'll wait until you have read a book before I give away any special things I might know about it (and I do know a couple of trivia facts about certain books that might be interesting).
No need to apologize, I haven't seen anything so far that I'd consider a spoiler. A single joke without context, related to my own post, is not a spoiler... I was more worried about plot and character-related stuff, but everyone has been really considerate so far. :smallsmile:


I'd like to put out another set of books by Sir Terry in addition to those put forward so far.

The standalone Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents is pretty darn good. Maybe not the best, but a great standalone read even if Maurice is sort of an earlier version of Moist Von Lipwig. Special mention to both Dangerous Beans and Darktan as well.

I'm also surprised there's no love for Tiffany Aching: Wee Free Men, Hat Full of Sky, and Wintersmith. Granny Weatherwax and her colleagues show up in these books also, but as supporting cast rather than as the main characters; these are Tiffany's stories, not theirs. And they are coming of age stories, good ones. Hat Full of Sky especially I would recommend for someone considering a ministry vocation, because the stuff Tiffany has to do is a lot of what that job is about ... even if that is somewhat ironic, given the subject matter :smallamused:

Respectfully,

Brian P.I do plan to read more of Pratchett's works in the future. Either after I finish the Discworld series, or if I ever decide to take a break from them.

[Cozzer]

Also, Nation is pretty great! It's one of PTerry's most serious books, though his humor is as usual always present in the way he writes.

[veti]

It's been a while since I read EQ and I will admit to not remembering terribly much of it but I also don't remember anything that makes me think it's one of the weaker ones. IIRC I've heard it was one of his first big successes (in part because apparently women's rights activists praised it assuming Terry was a lady's name)

That seems unlikely. By the time ER was published, Terry was already a reasonably well known figure. I first met him around that time, when he came to give a talk to a bunch of students (of whom I was lucky enough to be one). He'd been doing those sorts of gigs for years even then. You'd have had to be pretty wilfully ignorant to assume he was female. To say nothing of the mini-biography that appeared in each book.


"Seriously" what? Yes, everybody and their mother loves NW and puts it on the top of Discworld canon and I don't get it. I feel it's severely overrated.

Oh thank goodness, I was beginning to think I was the only one...

Fave guards book: Guards! Guards! Runner up: The Fifth Elephant.

Rincewind: Eric, followed by Interesting Times.

Death: Hogfather, then Reaper Man.

Witches: Witches Abroad, Lords and Ladies.

Standalone: Pyramids, Moving Pictures.

When he died, I resolved to reread the entire canon in order (a project that was interrupted by losing my copy of Wyrd Sisters for over a year...). I used to reread them regularly at one time, but had got out of the habit lately. Revisiting after a break was interesting. I found myself warming to some books I hadn't much liked before (Maskerade), but others - frankly, Jingo was always a bit of a shark jump for me.

[pendell]

Good book, but the series gets even better!

If you skip ahead to Lords & Ladies (which really does flat out ROCK!), that's forgivable, but reading them in order does make them better.



"No love"?

Since when?

I cited most of the Tiffany Aching series as among my "standouts" way up-thread:

An error on my part. Sorry.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Wraith]

Again, that's not a "NW sucks" statement, I just don't know where the general consensus comes from.

May I please ask, which of the Guards novels is your favourite? Your choice might help us understand your deviancy opinion more clearly? :smallwink:

Seriously though, I would like to know which was your favourite. I feel that you can learn a little about a person, by knowing which books they like. :smallsmile:


I started reading "Wyrd Sisters" today, so it's still too early to form a full opinion, but I already love having Granny Weatherwax (and her coven) on the main stage... Heh.

I don't think it's too big of a spoiler to say that, of all the characters that Terry wrote about, Granny Weatherwax was the most different between her early and later stories. Equal Rites' Granny is almost completely a different person to Witches Abroad Granny, as she goes from being a wise-woman who knows magic to becoming a Witch - a very specific term, in Discworld parlance. :smallbiggrin:


In 'The colour of magic' you have Twoflower explaining economics to Rincewind (revertebrating sounds of underground spirits or echo-gnomics). In the Dutch translation that becomes 'boomknaagdieren die aardgeesten nadoen' of 'eekhoorn-gnomie' (squirrel-gnomics in a literal translation) which resonates with the Dutch word for economics which is economie.

Far be it for me to comment on another language which I don't speak, but I'm pretty convinced that 'eekhorn' should be pronounced the same as 'acorn'; the counting of which should be very important to squirrels and hence the link.

I make absolutely no claim that this is intended or truthful, but it amuses me greatly to think of it as a pun. :smallbiggrin:

===

Marginally related, but I would like to offer this gathering of Discworlders this: Run Rincewind Run (https://vimeo.com/1331679), as first debut'd at Nullus Anxietas (the Australian DW convention) in 2007. Not enough people have seen it, for my liking, so it may be amusing to some of you anew.

[farothel]

M
Far be it for me to comment on another language which I don't speak, but I'm pretty convinced that 'eekhorn' should be pronounced the same as 'acorn'; the counting of which should be very important to squirrels and hence the link.


eekhoorn means squirrel in Dutch and 'eekhoo' is pronounced similar to 'eco', which is where the translation comes from.

[dehro]

Far be it for me to comment on another language which I don't speak, but I'm pretty convinced that 'eekhorn' should be pronounced the same as 'acorn'

it's pronounced very similarly, yes.
Nice to see that may of the translations manage to reflect the humour and wordplay of Terry "mayherestinpeace" Pratchett

[Cazero]

Marginally related, but I would like to offer this gathering of Discworlders this: Run Rincewind Run (https://vimeo.com/1331679), as first debut'd at Nullus Anxietas (the Australian DW convention) in 2007. Not enough people have seen it, for my liking, so it may be amusing to some of you anew.They need to fire the director for not reading the books.
Seriously, their Rincewind keeps turning around while running to look at who's chasing him. Doesn't he knows that it slows him down?

[Kato]

I'm trying to be at least a little sensitive to new readers, seeing as that is the foundation of the thread. So I don't want to go into details. That said, I found NW to be the most personal character study of the franchise, taking Sam Vimes, an already well developed character, and breaking him down piece by piece and challenging everything he is.

I feel like it's possible to argue the basics without spoiling anything. And if necessary there are always spoiler tags.
I won't entirely disagree about what NW does, but I will disagree with the scope and the effect it had on me. Yes, it's a good Vimes book, but if you want more than the 'Sam Vimes show' it's disappointing (to a degree).



I must also say that Discworld is one of the rare cases when the transition is actually better than the original by adding more depth and gravitas to it. It´s the small things: Sam Vimes is translated as Samuel Mumm. Mumm has a very specific meaning, it being the stubborn heroic of the small folks.
Also, the Patrician comes over as way more reasonable, but also way more cold-blooded, which fits the character.
I've also started reading the German books, though I can't say I remember how many of them, but I've since swapped to the originals and I don't intend to go back.
When I read it there was just too much lost in translation, considering how well Pratchett wielded language as part of his arsenal. I'm sure the translators tried - some at least - but it's not possible to carry over everything.
Vimes is actually an example I'd hold against them, though this might be because I'm not a native speaker. 'Vimes' to me holds no or little similarity to what I associate with 'Mumm' and while it might just be a name, I don't welcome such change. Translating Twoflower or Carrot is fine by me, but Vîmes or Aching are cases where it's either not a good idea or done less than ideally. And I know translating is hard work and those are merely my opinions on the matter. And if this makes it more accessible to people, I'm not going to argue with it.



May I please ask, which of the Guards novels is your favourite? Your choice might help us understand your deviancy opinion more clearly? :smallwink:

Seriously though, I would like to know which was your favourite. I feel that you can learn a little about a person, by knowing which books they like. :smallsmile:

As I said, I'm terrible at picking favorites. There's too many pros and cons for all, for me to 'this has the most better moments'.
Also it's been a while since I read them all. Gut feeling would be Jingo, even with its flaws, or maybe Men at Arms. But I'd rather go back and read them again before I make a definitive statement.



I don't think it's too big of a spoiler to say that, of all the characters that Terry wrote about, Granny Weatherwax was the most different between her early and later stories. Equal Rites' Granny is almost completely a different person to Witches Abroad Granny, as she goes from being a wise-woman who knows magic to becoming a Witch - a very specific term, in Discworld parlance. :smallbiggrin:

I think Death, at least between CoM (and I think also still in LF) was an even more massively different character than later on, to the point where in my head canon it must be somebody else. Yes, granny too is markedly different but not as much as Death.

[dehro]

I think Death, at least between CoM (and I think also still in LF) was an even more massively different character than later on, to the point where in my head canon it must be somebody else. Yes, granny too is markedly different but not as much as Death.

My headcanon is that DEATH looked at Rincewind's hourglass for the first time and was forever changed.

[Sinewmire]

Watchmen: Tough pick, probably Feet of Clay. "Blasphemy!" "That's what people always say when the silent are given a voice."Rincewind/Wizards: Sourcery. Rincewind steps up. Rincewind steps up to face the mightiest magician the Disc has ever seen, armed with a half-brick in a sock.
Death/Susan: Hogfather. Mr Teatime is a great villain. "Humans need the little lies to believe in the big lies, like Truth, Justice, Mercy." Ouch, have mercy, Pterry!
The Witches: Lords and Ladies. I love Pratchett's take on the Sidhe. par for the course now, but pretty revolutionary at the time. "They'd shatter the world if they thought it'd make a pretty noise."Moist: Going Postal... I felt that Moist's sequels were pretty weak really, not a hard choice.
One-offs: Monstrous Regiment. I love the Sharpe books and war novels in general, so I could well imagine poor war-torn Borogrovia."And all along you promoted the secret women if they were as good as men?" "No. I promoted them if they were better."

[Mightymosy]

So, I finished Mort.

It was okay, though I don't have it quite as high as some people seem to have it.
SPOILER ALERT!!!
(sorry, no idea how to do it on phone)










I think Death's behavior is a little puzzling in the end. I don't quite understand his motivations first for getting angry and attacking Mort - and then I don't understand his reasons for saving Mort.
Also, I thought his whole thing was that he never killed - or saved - people, refusing to mess with the lifespans of people.
Turning Mort's hourglass means he could do it for everyone, right? All kinds of implications, none explained, none further explored.

All in all, I think the end in general is a little over the place. I have had this feeling with a couple of Pratchet books now. Everything builds up fine and interesting, but in the end things happen that I don't get.
I much preferred the ending to Witches abroad - or Wyrd Sisters, for that matter.

The plot resolutions make sense in an emotional way, I guess, but I often don't get why they happen in a couple of books, Mort being a good example.

For example, the whole "parallel universe bubble". The difference between the bubble and the "real" disc world was that princess Keli was murdered in the outside universe, but alive in the bubble, right?

So how comes the bubble still exists after the gods allow princess Keli to live on in the real disc world?

Also, this whole business about Albert. What was his deal with Death? What was his agenda when he returned as a wizard? What's he about to do now?

Last, what about Mort and Ysabelle? Mort had a crush on Keli, and now all of a sudden he marries Ysabelle? Came out of the blue for me.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

SPOILER ALERT!!!
(sorry, no idea how to do it on phone)

Quote this message to find out.

Text.

(I wanted to use code tags, but it just displayed a spoiler in a code box.)

[pendell]

I think Death's behavior is a little puzzling in the end. I don't quite understand his motivations first for getting angry and attacking Mort - and then I don't understand his reasons for saving Mort.
Also, I thought his whole thing was that he never killed - or saved - people, refusing to mess with the lifespans of people.
Turning Mort's hourglass means he could do it for everyone, right? All kinds of implications, none explained, none further explored.




It's been awhile since I read the book, but IIRC the issue was that Mort was abusing his power as death, deciding who should live and who should die, saving Keli's life when she was fated to die.

I think the reason Death turned the hourglass over were those last lines:
Death: YOU DON'T KNOW HOW SORRY THIS MAKES ME.
Mort: I might.

I think that touched some part of death, made him realize that here was someone who really understood it, really got it.

So he turned the hourglass over. He does not , himself, have the authority to change someone's fated time but, if I remember correctly, he "had a word with the gods" who totally could.

I believe something similar happens in Reaper Man: While Death is simply the executor of fate and has no power of his own to altar it, he does have access to and audience with those who can and do have that ability: The gods.

It is a privilege he is very careful not to abuse , which is one reason they listen to him. If he was constantly haranguing them about the work he did, they'd probably put him out to pasture.

And, as you will see if you continue to read the books , the scales DO eventually balance out.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[veti]

So, I finished Mort.

It was okay, though I don't have it quite as high as some people seem to have it.

I agree. Several of the books have issues with pacing toward the end, which translate into rushed resolutions.

I think people like Mort because it's identified as the starting point of the "serious" development of the world, the book where character development sets in. Not because it's all that great in its own right, although I'm sure someone will disagree with that now...

[Calemyr]

I think Mort chose Ysabelle over Keli for some very good reasons. His fascination with Keli was shallow in nature. He didn't want to claim the soul of a cute girl who'd been unjustly killed, and lots of trouble came of it. He could have doubled down on it to prove he wasn't wrong, but thought better of it. Ysabelle, on the other hand, wasn't as beautiful a girl but it was Ysabelle that had Mort's back, that did the Nodes for him when he didn't know what to do, and that stood up to her very father beside him. God bless the man who chooses a true partner over a pretty face.

I do agree with Pendell on why Death spared Mort. Death's willingness to kill Mort is an echo of Mort's unwillingness to kill Keli. Mort couldn't bring him to do it despite the fact that it was his Duty, while Death respects his Duty even if it genuinely pains him to enact it. By simply saying "I might", Mort did exactly what he needed to: embrace his death with dignity, accept that he didn't do it right, and commiserate with Death in a dark moment. That was all he needed to change his mind.

There's one other detail. I think it's stated that Death's entire reason for hiring on Mort was to marry him to Ysabelle. One of Death's defining features is that he can't be original and has to copy things he sees (and rarely gets the spirit of the thing correct). He's trying to give Ysabelle the escape she dreams of by playing off the old cliche of the apprentice marrying into the family business.

[Fyraltari]

There is also that Mort's hourglass was running empty because DEATH was about to kill him. For the first time DEATH was about to be a killer rather than just a psychopomp. His duty does not allow him to interfere in deaths he doesn't cause but for the ones he does he may.

Or maybe he is a bit of an hypocrite (looking at Ysabelle and Albert here).

I think it is both.

[Wraith]

Or maybe he is a bit of an hypocrite (looking at Ysabelle and Albert here).

I think you're right. Death had already messed around with Ysabel's hourglass, and look at the trouble it had caused? Arguably, messing around with another that could NOT be fixed so easily as just returning to the world made him realise how big of an error he was about to make.


So, I finished Mort.

You'll find out why Death realises that he shouldn't kill Mort when you read Reaper Man (turns out there is someone else that even Death ultimately answers to, and he needs permission to directly affect mortals' lifespans), and also more so when you read Soul Music.

I won't mention anything about that spoiler - it's hugely significant to the plot of the story, and one very small detail from Mort that will take on huge meaning when you reread it.

[farothel]

There is that.

And on a totally different note: a bit more than one week to DW Con. :tongue:

[Mightymosy]

Quote this message to find out.

Text.
So thanks for the explanations. They sound good on first glance, maybe I have to read the last part again and check whether I find it more logical now.

Still some open questions:
If Death wanted Mort to marry Ysabell, why is he angry at Mort for "seducing" her? Which he didnt.

Even though it might be sensible for Mort to choose Ysabelle over Keli, it still came out of the blue. A scene with Mort and Ysabelle having some sort of romantics before that might have helped. The only one I remember is the garden scene....

Also, what about Albert? Whats his deal with Death? What was his plan going back to University?
What happens with him now?

Also, can Death turn other peoples' hourglasses as well?

I'm glad Rincewind is back. He is one of my favourite characters. It sorta cheapens the awesome heroic "end" he had in Sourcery, but I'm happy for him :-)
Do we find out how he managed to come back from the Dungeon Dimensions?




Thanks for the quote blueprint! :-D

Now if anyone can tell me how to change that stupid avatar (on phone) I'm all set :-)

[Friv]

I'm glad Rincewind is back. He is one of my favourite characters. It sorta cheapens the awesome heroic "end" he had in Sourcery, but I'm happy for him :-) Do we find out how he managed to come back from the Dungeon Dimensions?

You'll want to read Eric for that.

[Wraith]

You'll want to read Eric for that.

Eric is.... weird. It absolutely explains how Rincewind escapes the Dungeon Dimensions... But then, so does Interesting Times which also features a lot more canonically significant characters and is what gets referred to in later books.

Clearly, Eric happened down one leg of the Trousers of time and Interesting Times/Last Continent/Last Hero happened in another. :smalltongue:

[lord_khaine]

Reply on Eric spoiler.

You got the continuation mixed up Wraith. The events of Interesting Times follow after what takes place in Eric.

It is Eric that explains how Rincewind escapes.

[Lemmy]

Wyrd Sisters

Finished reading "Wyrd Sisters" (took me a bit longer than the other books because I didn't have as much free time). Not as good as the two previous books, but light-years ahead of Equal Rites (the only Discworld so far to actually bore me). Nanny Weatherwax is a blast to read, and Nanny Ogg might be even more fun! Magrat doesn't quite live up to their heights, but is still pretty cool, as is her fool.

In fact, I love how equally comic dramatic the characters and situations are... The fool who found no joy in his job, the mad duke who you pity more than hate, the king's ghost (that stayed around simply because he never even thought about what came next, and only found something to resent after becoming a ghost), the evil duchess (who is devoured by woodland critters, including bunnies)... And Tomjon, the prodigy-actor-turned-king-turned-actor. I love how he displays the "gifts" given to him by the witches, specially Granny Weatherwax ("You really are your father's son." "Yes. I thought I ought to be"). I love how he "escapes his destiny" by taking control of it. I had to re-read a few pages to realize that when Magrat is looking at Tomjon and the Fool, it's because she just noticed they do in fact look similar (and I was honestly surprised at the double-twist of their parentage... That they are brothers... And that their father is most likely the previous fool, not the king!)... That moment when he momentarily considers becoming king to help Vitoller pay for the Disk Theater is very emotional. But Tomjon got a great ending, so I complain...

The Fool had a great arc too, overall. I'm just a bit disappointed that the relationship between Magrat and him is left ambiguous at the end. I hope to find out what happens to them later on...

Well, in any case, I really enjoyed the theme of the book: Make your own destiny. The fool stops stops doing something he hates just because of "destiny", Tomjon continues to do something he loves, despite what "destiny" tells him... And there, at the very end, even Magrat realizes that witches don't always have to do stuff (or not do) stuff just because they are witches. "Bugger destiny!", indeed.

I quite enjoyed the references to MacBeth, Hamlet and King Lear... Which are 3 out of the 4 Shakespeare plays that I actually read... Plus a few other references that I recognize from pop culture-osmosis, but can't actually place them (I know "all the world is a stage" is Shakespeare, but have no idea where it's from).

One last note I'd like to add, is that while it was already pretty clear before, this books makes it indisputable the fact that Sir Terry Pratchett is REALLY GOOD at making the climax of the story really well... Climatic. The scene of the play, specially the part with the Duke finally succumbing to complete madness with a play-dagger was very intense!

Oh yeah... And seeing Death suffer with stage freight was hilarious! And the cameo with the Librarian was great... Freaking ape deserves his own book! :smallbiggrin:

Well... Next is "Pyramids". Let's see where it takes me! :smallcool:

[dehro]

The Fool had a great arc too, overall. I'm just a bit disappointed that the relationship between Magrat and him is left ambiguous at the end. I hope to find out what happens to them later on...


You will.
Minor quibble, it's DEATH, not Death.

[farothel]

You will.
Minor quibble, it's DEATH, not Death.

Indeed you will. I found Wyrd Sisters a bit more tricky, but that's because I don't know much about Shakespeare.

And let's not forget the song about an animal who, compared to a lot of other animals, is very lucky indeed. Terry never created a full version of the Hedgehog song (just some fragments in various books, you'll notice it comes back almost every time Nanny Ogg is 'on stage'), but fans have and versions are circulating around the internet.

this book is also the reason why the main room on the DW cons is called The Dysk (although this year it's called the patrician's palace instead, but you'll get know why when you read Guards! Guards! as that is this year's theme).

[pendell]

The Fool had a great arc too, overall. I'm just a bit disappointed that the relationship between Magrat and him is left ambiguous at the end. I hope to find out what happens to them later on...

I believe that arc is resolved in later books. Here's a hint. You know how the triad of witchcraft is the maiden, the mother, and the crone? That Magrat (the unmarried, idealistic young lady), Nanny (the hearty mother with many children whom she is raising) and Granny (the wise woman past childbearing age) fit each of these tropes?

Well...


Magrat will have to put aside the 'maiden' title. Heh heh.


Respectfully,

Brian P>

[Calemyr]

Finished reading Wyrd Sisters (took me a bit longer than the other books because I didn't have as much free time). Not as good as the two previous books, but light-years ahead of Equal Rites (the only Discworld so far to actually bore me). Nanny Weatherwax is a blast to read, and Nanny Ogg might be even more fun! Magrat doesn't quite live up to their heights, but is still pretty cool, as is her fool.

Magrat isn't up to their level, it's true. That said, there is a lot more to her than is initially apparent. She seems useless a lot of the time, until something hits her the wrong way and suddenly she, too, can be quite badass. She arguably gets the best moments in the Witches books on a regular basis.

There's a line in one book that nicely spells out the difference between Granny and Magrat.
Granny knew that the particular herbs didn't matter. All that mattered was that the patient believed they did. That is what made her the superior witch. Magrat knew that they did matter. That was what made her a superior healer.


The Fool had a great arc too, overall. I'm just a bit disappointed that the relationship between Magrat and him is left ambiguous at the end. I hope to find out what happens to them later on...

There's a powerful moment in Lords and Ladies about the fool. It isn't critical to anything, it's doesn't spoil anything, not really, but it's one of those things that really drives home a character.

One of the characters finds themselves in the Fool's King's bedroom. To their surprise they find the bed unused but a blanket and pillow set out by the door. The character notes that, as a Fool, it was his duty to sleep by the door to his master and that hasn't changed. It's just that now he considers the kingdom his master. That hits me in the gut every time I read it.


Oh yeah... And seeing Death suffer with stage freight was hilarious! And the cameo with the Librarian was great... Freaking ape deserves his own book! :smallbiggrin:

DEATH will be an eternal gem in the series, and only gets better. The Librarian is much the same. His appreciation of theater does become a running gag.


Well... Next is "Pyramids". Let's see where it takes me! :smallcool:

Pyramids is... interesting, let's say. It's not connected to anything outside of a brief time in Ankh-Morpork, which does let you see the city from a genuinely new perspective. It is in one way a fascinating book that takes the world-building in a completely new direction and gives us lots of things we never see elsewhere, and in others a pointless diversion that doesn't really tie into the series proper. I'm quite curious to see which conclusion you come to.

[Iruka]

One of the characters finds themselves in the Fool's King's bedroom. To their surprise they find the bed unused but a blanket and pillow set out by the door. The character notes that, as a Fool, it was his duty to sleep by the door to his master and that hasn't changed. It's just that now he considers the kingdom his master. That hits me in the gut every time I read it.



Wow, never interpreted it that way. I just assumed he was used to this sleeping place and had not taken on any allures as a king.

[Wraith]

Reply on Eric spoiler.
You got the continuation mixed up Wraith. The events of Interesting Times follow after what takes place in Eric.

It is Eric that explains how Rincewind escapes.

As it turns out, you're right - thank you for pointing out the difference.

I honestly had to go and fetch Interesting Times off the shelf and reread some of it - I had completely forgotten about the island and 'potatoes', and somehow misremembered the beginning of Eric with Rincewind being a poltergeist, being the reason for why he was summoned by the wizards. Still... No worries. She'll be right. :smallsmile:

[GloatingSwine]

Wow, never interpreted it that way. I just assumed he was used to this sleeping place and had not taken on any allures as a king.

It's a very Pratchettian construction. Verence wasn't sleeping in the same place, he'd changed what side of the door he was sleeping on.

See also: The deepest darkest dungeon of the Patrician's palace. Which side of the door certain things are on is significant yet not immediately obviously so.

[jayem]

Absolutely right. Chronological order is good. Not all the books will be winners, but you never know which ones will strike a chord with you. One person's favorite will be someone else's least, and one person's trash will be another's treasure. That's how life is in general, but it's doubly true on the Disc.

What I'm not sure about is if some of the bits I liked and didn't like would have been different if I'd read out of order.

I didn't like the very end books much but if they'd got their first then

Maybe the more tediously preachy bits would have gone undetected until their 'repitition' in the earlier books.
Maybe the inversions and plots would have been more original
Maybe the 19th and C A-M would be more natural
etc..

[farothel]

What I'm not sure about is if some of the bits I liked and didn't like would have been different if I'd read out of order.

I didn't like the very end books much but if they'd got their first then

Maybe the more tediously preachy bits would have gone undetected until their 'repitition' in the earlier books.
Maybe the inversions and plots would have been more original
Maybe the 19th and C A-M would be more natural
etc..


Maybe, but you might also have missed some recurring things, especially with Vimes, who evolved a lot in all his books. The stuff with Moist is also better if read in order, or not everything will be clear.

[lord_khaine]

Vimes evolution is one of the better thing.
Or the progression of Rincewinds mini-story.


I do like that he gets a happy ending of sort, at least finding a measure of peace as unpaid Professor of Cruel and unusual Geology.

[Eldan]

See, I still think Rincewind's best ending was Sourcery. I mean, I don't hate the later books he's in, and Last Hero is a favourite, but...

It shows him as the only one willing to see the Sourcerer as a scared kid and trying to do something about it.
It shows him finally growing a bit of a spine and being the only one willing to go in with his half brick in a sock.
It shows him sacrificing himself for the world.

It's the end of his character arc, and it would have been fine if it ended there.

[veti]

It's the end of his character arc, and it would have been fine if it ended there.

Not at all. Rincewind has a lot of character development after that.

It's his time in the Dungeon Dimensions that turns him into the world-beating coward we see in the later books. (Which later becomes his defining personality trait, or at least the one that the author harps on most persistently - to the point where it's hard to remember he was, once, something else. But he was.)

Viewing Rincewind's entire career:
Back in 'The Colour of Magic', he was not only a wizard who couldn't do magic - he was a wizard who didn't really want to do it. He thought there must be a better way, dreaming idly of "harnessing the lightning" and suchlike. Much of the rest of his career is spent on exactly that - creating magical effects by other means, doing magic without magic.

In 'The Light Fantastic', the Spell uses Rincewind to do magic; for a moment Rincewind thinks he's doing it, but really he knows better. In 'Sourcery', it's the hat. In 'Eric' - he finds he can just snap his fingers and miraculous things happen. This baffles him completely, because he knows he's not doing it, but undeniably it's happening.

In 'Interesting Times', it's the Lady. Rincewind plays the part of the Great Wizzard by, basically, rolling natural 20 after natural 20 to benefit from the most implausible of coincidences, with (to him) terrifying consistency.

In 'The Last Continent', Rincewind knows he's a plaything - not of the gods, but something far more fundamental. I think he's become self-aware: on some level, he now knows he's the central character in a story being told by someone else. That's why there's no escaping his fate. Of course he still tries (to make a point about free will, I suspect), but he never expects it to work. Remember when the road bandit grabs his hat? Rincewind yells "You give me back my hat or there'll be trouble!". That's not a threat - Rincewind is in no position to make threats, he has absolutely nothing to threaten with. It's a prophecy - which gets fulfilled pretty much immediately. Rincewind never does magic, but - as he now knows - it doesn't matter: something very like magic keeps happening around him all the same.

That's peak Rincewind, I think. After TLC he slides into a bit of a rut. TLH and the 'Science of...' books are, narratively, just not very interesting to me.

[Manga Shoggoth]

... the 'Science of...' books are, narratively, just not very interesting to me.

Oh yes... My big problem with them was that they tried to be both Discworld Story and Popular Science Book, and as a result failed to be either.

[Kato]

Oh yes... My big problem with them was that they tried to be both Discworld Story and Popular Science Book, and as a result failed to be either.
Whaaaaaat?! I mean, yeah, the story falls short because it's like 50 pages or so and doesn't attempt to really tell a story I think but how do they fail as pop science? :smallconfused:

[veti]

Whaaaaaat?! I mean, yeah, the story falls short because it's like 50 pages or so and doesn't attempt to really tell a story I think but how do they fail as pop science? :smallconfused:

Well, for me because they're just not very interesting. Most of the science is stuff I already know, but laboured at immense length. And the parts I didn't already know are leavened with the type of humour that makes me keep thinking "is that really so, or is it just comic effect? Or speculation?"

[The New Bruceski]

One last note I'd like to add, is that while it was already pretty clear before, this books makes it indisputable the fact that Sir Terry Pratchett is REALLY GOOD at making the climax of the story really well... Climatic. The scene of the play, specially the part with the Duke finally succumbing to complete madness with a play-dagger was very intense!


The Witches books in particular have really great climactic showdowns.

[lord_khaine]

The Witches books in particular have really great climactic showdowns.

I like Witches abroad there myself.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Whaaaaaat?! I mean, yeah, the story falls short because it's like 50 pages or so and doesn't attempt to really tell a story I think but how do they fail as pop science? :smallconfused:

Largely because of the focus, or lack thereof. It spends all of its time trying to do two things (with various degrees of success), instead of doing one thing well. The context switch between chapters doesn't help.

It's one of those books that I tend to label "worthy effort, even if it failed." - I can appreciate what they tried to do, even if I don't like the result and don't think they succeeded.

[Bohandas]

Well, for me because they're just not very interesting. Most of the science is stuff I already know, but laboured at immense length. And the parts I didn't already know are leavened with the type of humour that makes me keep thinking "is that really so, or is it just comic effect? Or speculation?"

I haven't read it in years, but I could've sworn that there were footnotes with things like "no, there wasn;t really a civilization of basket weaving jellyfish" and so on

[bbgun06]

My personal favorites are the Night Watch series. And my favorite character is the Librarian.

[farothel]

My personal favorites are the Night Watch series. And my favorite character is the Librarian.

Oook.

And almost everyone understands.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm surprised Men at Arms doesn't rank higher. It is my favorite by a mile.

Daring sword fights! A prince in disguise!

[pendell]

Oook.

And almost everyone understands.

I've never understood the attraction of a monkAIEEEEnonononpleasenotthefacenotthefaceargh


Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Rodin]

I'm surprised Men at Arms doesn't rank higher. It is my favorite by a mile.

Daring sword fights! A prince in disguise!

This. While Night Watch is really good character study of Vimes, Men At Arms encapsulates the Watch as a whole much better. Guards Guards is good, but as the first Watch book the characters are just a little bit off.

Plus, Cuddy is just plain awesome.

[Mightymosy]

I like Witches abroad there myself.

As I said earlier in this thread, yes absolutely! It's my favourite so far! But I still have quite some books left to read.
I only have read one guards book so far, and many people say these are the best, so let's see! I have read the one where Sam goes back in time. I think it even was the first Discworld book I read, and it hooked me up, so there's that. I think I prefer Witches abroad, still, but hey, still a good book.

So I just read Wyrd Sisters and Mort.
Which comes next, chronologically?

[Wraith]

So I just read Wyrd Sisters and Mort.
Which comes next, chronologically?

Did you skip Sourcery? That comes between the two. Regardless, after Mort comes Pyramids - the first stand alone story about all new characters, and one of my favourites.

[Fyraltari]

If I have to name favourites:

Rincewind: Interesting Times (Sourcery comes second)

The Watch: Men at Arms (Feet of Clay and Guards Guards are very good too, I was disappointed by Night Watch maybe because it was too much hyped to me)

Witches: Maskerade

Death & Family: Hogsfather (with Soul Music a close second)

Moist: Going Postal (the other two really can't compare)

One-shot characters: Small Gods

Special mention to the Last Hero who doesn't really fit any of the above category but is too awesome to pass up.

[dehro]

since we seem to have a high concentration of Pratchett veterans.. I have another question:
which are the books you like re-reading the most?
for me it's probably thief of time, then jingo, the fifth elephant and the last hero... I routinely re-read most of the other books, but these three tend to be my first pick very often.
The one I can't be bothered re-reading is Nation.

[Wraith]

Some of Pterry's non-Discworld novels are really good - Dark Side of the Sun was the first that I knew about and read and I till enjoy it now. I agree with you that I also didn't care much for Nation, and in many ways it's put me off getting into the Long Earth trilogy.

I've read Feet of Clay about six times, and Hogfather about 8; I tried making a tradition of reading it over Christmas but was never able to keep to that idea. I still pick up The Last Hero every so often, since it's quick to get through for a short dose of Discworld. :smalltongue:

[GloatingSwine]

Some of Pterry's non-Discworld novels are really good - Dark Side of the Sun was the first that I knew about and read and I till enjoy it now. I agree with you that I also didn't care much for Nation, and in many ways it's put me off getting into the Long Earth trilogy.


The Long X books read a lot more like Stephen Baxter than Pterry anyway.

(The one I think I've reread the most is Lords and Ladies, with Men at Arms a close second.)

[Kato]

I think Hogfather is my most read, because it's fun over the holidays.. But I can't claim to have repeatedly re-read many, since it's just not a thing I tend to do (too many books I haven't read yet)

Speaking of non-Discworld books, I feel Nations big problem is it being even more of a children / YA book than the Aching books. It's good in that regard but it is much less interesting to an older audience.
The Long X series has an interesting premise and interesting ideas but the story is.. Okay.
I also quite liked Dark Side and Strata. You can clearly see many things that would later come in the DS books.
Also, I really should read the Bromeliad again, I think it's been over a decade.

[2D8HP]

since we seem to have a high concentration of Pratchett veterans.. I have another question:
which are the books you like re-reading the most?.


The ones that I have re-read the most are Lord's & Ladies, Carpe Jugulum, Equal Rites, Guards! Guards!, and Wee Free Men.

[veti]

The Rincewind books are my favourite for rereading. Lots of good hearty laughs that don't weaken with repetition. Right now I'm rereading The Last Continent, and it still makes me laugh out loud over and over.

[Lemmy]

Pyramids

So... I finally finished "Pyramids" yesterday. Took me longer than the other books because... Well... It's not very entertaining.

I mean... It's certainly not a bad book, but it kind of... drags on. I wasn't bored like I was with "Equal Rites", but I wasn't looking forward to finishing it either. It's a shame, because early on, it looks super interesting (a Egyptian prince training to be an assassin?! Cool!"), but then it skips almost straight to his final test... Then the books loses some steam, but still looks interesting ("An assassin suddenly becomes pharaoh?! Cool!"). But after that... I can't exactly put my finger on why, but I simply wasn't having much fun with the story. I wasn't bored or annoyed, but I wasn't enjoying it much either.

I enjoyed the time-bending shenanigans and got a laugh out of the world's greatest mathematician being a camel named "You Bastard"... But the story around Pteppic, Dios, Ptraci and the dead pharaoh simply wasn't doing much for me... The "reveals" at the end were a bit too predictable as well... But at least the climax confrontation was once again pretty intense, with the dead pharaohs coming back to life, the destruction of the pyramid and whatnot...

So... All in all, not a bad book, but not a great one either. Feels very forgettable. I don't see myself coming back to re-read it... I guess they can't all be winners, huh?

- - -

Next is "Guards Guards"... I'm told it's the first city guard book, which seems to be the favorite sub-series of many people... So I'm looking forward to it!

Let's see what Sir Terry Pratchett has in stock for us. :smallsmile:

[dehro]

I remember having a right laugh at the whole "Pootle" business..

[The New Bruceski]

I found Pyramids an ok book. Then ten years later I was in college taking a Humanities class and happened to reread it. Suddenly the Ephebe stuff was hilarious because I actually got the references.

That's really why I keep re-reading the books. The surface humor and writing and characters are quite good, but I also keep noticing new jokes or old ones will suddenly hit the sweet spot. The books change as I get new experiences.

[Mightymosy]

Did you skip Sourcery? That comes between the two. Regardless, after Mort comes Pyramids - the first stand alone story about all new characters, and one of my favourites.

Thanks! Pyramids sound good, I like this old egyptian stuff!

I started with Discword yeary ago with a couple of the middle books in German, and later read a couple of the newest ones, also in German. And watched the movie (is it Postal?).

Recently I was convinced that the originals were so much better in English, so I started the series from the start, in English.
I read The Color of Magic, Light Fantastic, Equal Rites and Sourcery.
With a little break, I have now just read Wyrd Sisters and Mort.

So, next up will be Pyramids.

Thanks for the information!

[Manga Shoggoth]

So... I finally finished "Pyramids" yesterday. Took me longer than the other books because... Well... It's not very entertaining.

The big hook in Pyramids is that the Assassins Test at the beginning is a direct mickey-take of the older British driving test - down to namedropping some of the pieces such as the emergency drop (== emergency stop). After people read that they were generally engaged enough to keep going.

[Lemmy]

The big hook in Pyramids is that the Assassins Test at the beginning is a direct mickey-take of the older British driving test - down to namedropping some of the pieces such as the emergency drop (== emergency stop). After people read that they were generally engaged enough to keep going.I didn't catch that... But I did find the assassin training very fun to read... But it's just so damn short. :smallfrown:

[The New Bruceski]

It's Pratchett; if someone says "good morning" it's probably a reference to some old British comedy gag that 5% of readers will get.

[dehro]

if I remember correctly, there's something akin to a wiki, called L space, I think..where the books are analised and all the gags, easter eggs, inside jokes and references are explained

[farothel]

Yes it is. I think I've put the link somewhere before in this tread. Anyway, Pyramids is certainly not my biggest favourite, but it's not the worst either. I like it when the country dissapeared and Ephebe and Tsort go to war. Just like in roundworld they're basically refighting the last war all over again.

I tend to reread the books around every two years before the convention (where I'm right now). Out theme is guards! Guards! and I can tell you that's a great book.

[Rodin]

I didn't catch that... But I did find the assassin training very fun to read... But it's just so damn short. :smallfrown:

The good news is, you're just about past what I consider the "awkward adolescent" stage of Discworld. There's Guards! Guards!, which is excellent but has a bit of early weirdness in the characterization of the Watch characters, and then there's Eric, which is just plain odd due to it being practically a novella rather than a proper Discworld story.

After that, you're into what I consider the Golden Age - he's nailed down the personalities of all his characters, gotten the worldbuilding settled, and firmly established the writing style for the rest of the series.

[Manga Shoggoth]

The good news is, you're just about past what I consider the "awkward adolescent" stage of Discworld. There's Guards! Guards!, which is excellent but has a bit of early weirdness in the characterization of the Watch characters, and then there's Eric, which is just plain odd due to it being practically a novella rather than a proper Discworld story.

After that, you're into what I consider the Golden Age - he's nailed down the personalities of all his characters, gotten the worldbuilding settled, and firmly established the writing style for the rest of the series.

The thing about Eric was that it was originally an illustrated story (one of two in the Discworld canon, the other being The Last Hero) - the original was about twice the size because of the illustrations.

But yes, this is the point where Pratchett starts producing consistently good to excellent novels. How long this lasts is pretty much personal opinion, but no matter how you measure it, it was a long run.

[Wraith]

I started with Discword yeary ago with a couple of the middle books in German, and later read a couple of the newest ones, also in German. And watched the movie (is it Postal?).

There are 4 'made-for-TV feature-length specials' (The Colour of Magic, The Lite Fantastic, Hogfather and Going Postal) and 2 animated features (Wyrd Sisters and Soul Music). They're all generally pretty faithful to the novels, though the animation style of the latter two is somewhat old fashioned and cheap looking nowadays.

If ever a series was crying out for a big budget Disney-style remake, it's something like Guard! Guards!... Hell, Lords and Ladies even has a musical interlude written right into it.... :smalltongue:


So... All in all, not a bad book, but not a great one either. Feels very forgettable. I don't see myself coming back to re-read it... I guess they can't all be winners, huh?

I understand where you're coming from. The problem with the 'stand alone' novels like Pyramids and Small Gods is that they start out with brand new characters with no back story, in a new location that hasn't been very well detailed. If you start reading the book and you don't care for either of those things, for any reason, there's nothing that can save the rest of it unfortunately.

I feel the same way about Monstrous Regiment. Even putting the barely-concealed political subtext aside, it's one of my least favourite stories. The next-but-one that will come up on your list, however - Small Gods - is generally considered to be a classic, however. :smallsmile:

[Mightymosy]

Small Gods was an awesome book, but for me not a very enjoyable read (because dark and sad).
Great literature though, also because it is very standalone.

[Cozzer]

The good news is, you're just about past what I consider the "awkward adolescent" stage of Discworld. There's Guards! Guards!, which is excellent but has a bit of early weirdness in the characterization of the Watch characters, and then there's Eric, which is just plain odd due to it being practically a novella rather than a proper Discworld story.

After that, you're into what I consider the Golden Age - he's nailed down the personalities of all his characters, gotten the worldbuilding settled, and firmly established the writing style for the rest of the series.

I completely agree with all of the above. Small Gods in particular, is a contender for my favorite book in the whole Discworld series.

[lord_khaine]

I dont even think Small Gods were that sad.
And it did have some of the most memorable moments in all of discworld.
The ending in particular.

[brionl]

The big hook in Pyramids is that the Assassins Test at the beginning is a direct mickey-take of the older British driving test - down to namedropping some of the pieces such as the emergency drop (== emergency stop). After people read that they were generally engaged enough to keep going.

The very first part is also an homage to Tom Brown's School Days, which was pretty much the ur-text for the british boarding school genre (https://www.oxford-royale.co.uk/articles/british-schools-fiction.html). Which most people these days are probably familiar with from the Harry Potter series.

[Calemyr]

Pyramids had two of my favorite scenes in the series.

Pteppic, having been caught by some guards:
Guard: Drop every weapon you're carrying.
Pteppic: That could take some time...
Guard: And keep your hands where I can see them.
Pteppic: Ah. We may be at an impasse there.

Cracks me up every time I read it.

Also, when the sun gods are competing for control of the sun, one priest does his best impression of a football/soccer announcer: "And it's NOON!"

But, yeah. Either really boring or really fascinating depending on your sensibilities. We don't see the world from the perspective of an assassin much in the Discworld books, so Pteppic's story adds something new to the setting. (Plus there's something funny about going to a test hung over from wine you're going to drink to celebrate after you pass it.)

And the Watch books are definitely one of the finer groups in the series, for my money. Witches and Death round out my top three, though I couldn't tell you the order within that trio.

[Lemmy]

Pyramids had two of my favorite scenes in the series.

Pteppic, having been caught by some guards:
Guard: Drop every weapon you're carrying.
Pteppic: That could take some time...
Guard: And keep your hands where I can see them.
Pteppic: Ah. We may be at an impasse there.

Cracks me up every time I read it.

Also, when the sun gods are competing for control of the sun, one priest does his best impression of a football/soccer announcer: "And it's NOON!"

But, yeah. Either really boring or really fascinating depending on your sensibilities. We don't see the world from the perspective of an assassin much in the Discworld books, so Pteppic's story adds something new to the setting. (Plus there's something funny about going to a test hung over from wine you're going to drink to celebrate after you pass it.)

And the Watch books are definitely one of the finer groups in the series, for my money. Witches and Death round out my top three, though I couldn't tell you the order within that trio.
Oh, it definitely has great moments! I wouldn't even say it's boring... Just not very exciting, overall. It's... Ok. At no point I thought about giving up on reading the book...I just wasn't really looking forward to it either.

[Tvtyrant]

Anyone else find Feet of Clay frustrating?

Generally there is some balance between the different species/races in Diskworld. Vampires have vampire weaknesses, trolls are dumb at lowrr altitudes, Dwarves are physically very similar to humans, Werewolves can be dealt with using aniseed and wolfsbane, etc.

Golems OTOH are highly intelligent, stronger then trolls, faster then anyone can see, immortal, nearly indestructible, and can reproduce faster then any other race.

[hamishspence]

Golems OTOH are highly intelligent, stronger then trolls, faster then anyone can see, immortal, nearly indestructible, and can reproduce faster then any other race.



I thought the whole point of Feet of Clay was that golems couldn't reproduce safely - when they tried, the resulting golem went insane?

[GloatingSwine]

Anyone else find Feet of Clay frustrating?

Generally there is some balance between the different species/races in Diskworld. Vampires have vampire weaknesses, trolls are dumb at lowrr altitudes, Dwarves are physically very similar to humans, Werewolves can be dealt with using aniseed and wolfsbane, etc.

Golems OTOH are highly intelligent, stronger then trolls, faster then anyone can see, immortal, nearly indestructible, and can reproduce faster then any other race.

The plot is predicated on the point that they can’t reproduce at all because they can’t produce a stable personality...

[Tvtyrant]

I thought the whole point of Feet of Clay was that golems couldn't reproduce safely - when they tried, the resulting golem went insane?

No the golem they made was made in a profoundly stupid way, where they instilled a ton of contradictory orders into its head. They each stuck their hopes into it with the desire to make a messiah. This makes it insane.

Carrot figures out how to free golems by granting them self-ownership. They then collect money to buy back all of the golems in existence and grant them their own ownership, but nothing stops them making new free golems.

[hamishspence]

The whole "words in the head" thing may be an issue. Does the script have to be written by somebody special - a priest of some kind, to work "properly"?

There's also the issue of creating new golems being illegal - so golems, being very law-abiding, don't do so - except for that one case which went wrong. Possibly they're too worried that it will happen again.

[tyckspoon]

I thought the whole point of Feet of Clay was that golems couldn't reproduce safely - when they tried, the resulting golem went insane?

The golem they made for themselves was overstuffed with animating words, causing it to have multiple potentially-conflicting guiding principles in its head. If I'm recalling Feet of Clay correctly it's something of an open question as to whether they could have successfully created a normal golem with the regular one phrase/verse/whatever worth of magic words.. but considering the economic force that self-owned golems turned out to be they probably just pay somebody to make one if they want to reproduce later.

[hamishspence]

It may be illegal:

http://discworld.wikia.com/wiki/Golems

The creation of new golems is illegal due to the ethical questions it raises. Many still exist, however, and destroying them is also ethically tricky.

https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Golems

Most golems had been made centuries before the present; no new golems have been made (save the illicit King Golem of Feet of Clay) because priests argued that the creation of life is the domain of the gods.

[Tvtyrant]

The whole "words in the head" thing may be an issue. Does the script have to be written by somebody special - a priest of some kind, to work "properly"?

There's also the issue of creating new golems being illegal - so golems, being very law-abiding, don't do so - except for that one case which went wrong. Possibly they're too worried that it will happen again.

True enough, but they still undermine a lot of the story.

No one used golems when attacked by a dragon.
Golems are more dangerous then guns but aren't brought up in Men at Arms.
Golems aren't used to clear the cart monsters.

Basically they get retconned into the story, but are way more powerful then the other components.

[hamishspence]

Golems follow orders - but are somewhat distrusted.

That might be why the Patrician is the only one to take advantage of "Golems can harm others if ordered to by a duly constituted authority" with Mr Pump in Going Postal.

The first golem reference is in Soul Music - they seemed back then to be connected to zombies in some way. By Feet of Clay, this appears to have been dropped.

[lord_khaine]

Golems follow orders - but are somewhat distrusted.

That might be why the Patrician is the only one to take advantage of "Golems can harm others if ordered to by a duly constituted authority" with Mr Pump in Going Postal.


Thats one of the few genuinly dumb things the Patrician has come up with in my oppinion.
As it has already been pointed out. Golems are massively more powerful than just about anything else. That they are not allowed to hurt people is funny enough one of the things that keeps them safe from angry mobs.
If they are suddenly seen as the Patricians private inhuman army, then its a recipi for disaster.

[Silfir]

Thats one of the few genuinly dumb things the Patrician has come up with in my oppinion.
As it has already been pointed out. Golems are massively more powerful than just about anything else. That they are not allowed to hurt people is funny enough one of the things that keeps them safe from angry mobs.
If they are suddenly seen as the Patricians private inhuman army, then its a recipi for disaster.

He has a good reason to employ Mr. Pump specifically - Moist is too slippery for anyone, or anything, else to be able to keep him under control. There's no indication I can remember that there's even a second Mr. Pump, let alone an army of them.

[dehro]

let's not spoil the rest of the books for the OP, who's reading them in order.

[Tvtyrant]

let's not spoil the rest of the books for the OP, who's reading them in order.

You are correct, I went back and spoilered my comments. Sorry OP.

[pendell]

I thought the whole point of Feet of Clay was that golems couldn't reproduce safely - when they tried, the resulting golem went insane?

They can reproduce safely. The reason the new golem broke was

they overloaded with words, too many expectations for any creature not a god. It went insane under the weight of a burden too heavy to bear. Also, they baked its clay in a bread oven , which meant it was falling apart.


The reason it is illegal is because the religions of the discworld teach that the creation of life is the domain of the gods, thus the creation of golems is a blasphemy. Clearly they didn't always think that way, as it takes a holy man/woman to write the words that go in their heads, but that's definitely the dominant viewpoint at the time of the novels.

The reason golems aren't regulated the way gonnes are is because , for the most part, they can't. Mr. Pump can, and I wonder if they changed his words, but as a rule they run on the Asimov rules of robotics: A robot may not injure a human being or , through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

Also, people just don't think of them as weapons. They're ... background machinery. Asking one to kill a dragon would no more cross an AM citizen's mind than ordering a mop to do so.

Another big difference is that a golem is made to work. The fact that it can kill as well is a secondary function, and one strongly forbidden by the words in their head. A gonne, by contrast, is a tool for killing. It has no other purpose. It also makes killing easy. Any commoner can kill a knight in armor if they lay their hands on one; that's why the upper classes of Ankh-Morpork take a dim view of them. Rich lords in armour don't like the idea of being on the same level as ordinary humans, and the assassins don't like the idea that a child could do their job with the right equipment.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Calemyr]

The golems really can't reproduce properly. They had one really weak chance and Meshugah wiped it all out after the fact.

They needed:
1) An oven that could do the job - They used a dwarven bread oven, that didn't work well. The owner of the oven was interested in trying it out of curiosity. Meshugah killed him. The troll's kiln worked perfectly, but he's way too smart to let it happen without Watch okay.

2) A holy man to write the words - They found an old religious scholar who found the concept fascinating. Meshugah killed him. Proper holy men have been unwilling to animate golems for centuries.

3) A whole heck of a lot of clay. Which is now being watched like a hawk. People weren't watching because golems were just dismissed as furniture. They are no longer treated like that, they will no longer have that freedom.

The only new golems that crop up in the series after Meshugah are all old golems.

And yes. Mr. Pump can harm/kill the living because Vetinari had his words changed so that he could - if ordered to by high ranking civil authority. Vetinari can get away with this because... he's Vetinari.

[veti]

And yes. Mr. Pump can harm/kill the living because Vetinari had his words changed so that he could - if ordered to by high ranking civil authority.

Do we actually know that for a fact, or are we just taking Mr Pump's word for it?

Because it occurs to me that "lying" would probably require a much less drastic change than "murder".

[Calemyr]

Do we actually know that for a fact, or are we just taking Mr Pump's word for it?

Because it occurs to me that "lying" would probably require a much less drastic change than "murder".

Set in absolute stone? No. But when asked about it, Vetinari just says that of course he made that change, it only makes sense.

[Lemmy]

Guys...

Please, please, PLEASE... Use spoilers.

[Calemyr]

Guys...

Please, please, PLEASE... Use spoilers.

Oh... oh crap. Sorry, man. Lost track of where I was. Not cool.

[Arsonist]

Hey guys! I've been trying to go through discworld for the past year and a half or so mostly through expiditions on my kindle. I was curious... is it natural to like one particular plotline or group in this world much... much more than the others? I've found choice little that I like with the Rincewind books, for instance.... but I've *thoroughly* enjoyed every City Watch book that I've read so far, with some of them ending up in my top 10-20 lists...

Just thought it was odd since before I started reading, the only character I ever see referenced is Rince...

Edit: For the record, I'm on Maskquerade at the moment, currently paused while I read through all the Ravnica books in prep for november >.-

[Kato]

Since you are entitled to your own opinion : no, it's not weird to prefer one cast or series of books or whatever over another. Pratchett is good enough of an author to make his writing style fit the plot / genre, and the Wizard books are distinctly different from Watch books (or Witch, or Death...) some people prefer one over the other.

Also, Rincewind was the first protagonist, even though his importance has dwindled a lot since. I guess for that reason he still kind of is the face of the world, a little at least, but I feel the character I see most often is Death.

[Calemyr]

Rincewind is, in many ways, the perfect personification of the Discworld: a faithful examination and refutation of the traditional fantasy setting, torn to pieces and rebuilt with a little common sense. Rincewind isn't the all-powerful hero, he's a powerless loser who survives his inevitable adventures through cynical pragmitism, craven cunning, and no reservations about fleeing a threat he is no match for (i.e. all of them).

"You run away all the time! How can you live like that?"
"Consistently!"

[Wraith]

True enough, but they still undermine a lot of the story.

No one used golems when attacked by a dragon.
Golems are more dangerous then guns but aren't brought up in Men at Arms.
Golems aren't used to clear the cart monsters.

Basically they get retconned into the story, but are way more powerful then the other components.

Perhaps ironically, I have always felt that this was justified in another forward-retcon in the opened scene of Going Postal, when Angharad is dredged up from the ocean and Mr.Pump explains his back-story.

Golems don't feature in the earlier stories because Golems are forgotten. They're mostly just treated like we treat machines - at the bottom of wells, deep in mines, buried under junk and so on, and in doing that they take on their "role" as their name and as the meaning for their existence. It's not until Feet of Clay when Meshugah and Dorfl are the first to break out of that centuries-long pattern and come to the forefront of the public consciousness.

No, Golems weren't asked to stop the Dragon. My interpretation of that, on behalf of the people of Ankh-Morppork, is: Would you think to ask your lawnmower or your car to help you in that same situation? Because that's pretty much what Golems are thought of, if they're thought of at all. :smalltongue:


Do we actually know that for a fact, or are we just taking Mr Pump's word for it?

Because it occurs to me that "lying" would probably require a much less drastic change than "murder".

I think it's quite strongly implied by Dorfl - Golems are not forbidden from lying, but they simply choose not to. They value the truth because words are important to them - they literally have words as their 'soul'.

Killing people, on the other hand, is still morally wrong... But can be justified under the right circumstances. It's strange logic, granted, but then Golems are strange people in more than one way. :smallsmile:

[Calemyr]

Perhaps ironically, I have always felt that this was justified in another forward-retcon in the opened scene of Going Postal, when Angharad is dredged up from the ocean and Mr.Pump explains his back-story.

Golems don't feature in the earlier stories because Golems are forgotten. They're mostly just treated like we treat machines - at the bottom of wells, deep in mines, buried under junk and so on, and in doing that they take on their "role" as their name and as the meaning for their existence. It's not until Feet of Clay when Meshugah and Dorfl are the first to break out of that centuries-long pattern and come to the forefront of the public consciousness.

No, Golems weren't asked to stop the Dragon. My interpretation of that, on behalf of the people of Ankh-Morppork, is: Would you think to ask your lawnmower or your car to help you in that same situation? Because that's pretty much what Golems are thought of, if they're thought of at all. :smalltongue:

Agreed for the most part, but I'd also point out that golems aren't just machines - they're expensive machines. Of the golems in Ankh-Morpork, most are just left to do their job and forgotten. And those that do remember they exist see them as dumb machines that are extremely useful and difficult to replace. I'd definitely put this more on "recruiting your car to fight a dragon" than "recruiting your lawnmower to fight a dragon". Neither one is expected to have the capacity to do the job, but the car is expensive enough that few would readily sacrifice their own for a small chance of a temporary advantage.


I think it's quite strongly implied by Dorfl - Golems are not forbidden from lying, but they simply choose not to. They value the truth because words are important to them - they literally have words as their 'soul'.

Killing people, on the other hand, is still morally wrong... But can be justified under the right circumstances. It's strange logic, granted, but then Golems are strange people in more than one way. :smallsmile:

It's worth noting that the golems are written as fantasy-grade robots. Even the "words in their heads" are pretty darn analogous to programming. As such, it's explicitly said on numerous occasions that most golems have rules written into their chem. Basically, they're "Three Laws compliant", to reference Asimov's famous philosophy. They won't, can't harm people. The only exceptions are Meshugah and Pump. Pump because Vetinari gave him a chem that allowed him to do so if ordered to. Meshugah because he was, as his name implies, guano insane. Dorfl, the first "liberated" golem, is still unwilling (or unable) to harm anyone... though he is very much more than willing to humiliate and/or threaten them, he still doesn't do any lasting harm. That doesn't involve apples, anyway.

Liberated golems, when they appear in later books, aren't reliant on their chem and instead rely on "words in the heart", learning through experience like any mortal would. This is why Gladys is able to absorb various books representing female roles to better present herself as such. It becomes very hard to predict what a liberated golem can and can't do because of this. Fortunately, they are shown to have an intensely moral standard by default and a desire to protect the mortals around them - enough that they actively provide an impromptu fire brigade after the human version was shut down for corruption.

[veti]

No, Golems weren't asked to stop the Dragon. My interpretation of that, on behalf of the people of Ankh-Morppork, is: Would you think to ask your lawnmower or your car to help you in that same situation? Because that's pretty much what Golems are thought of, if they're thought of at all. :smalltongue:

(Note, there's not much point using spoiler tags unless you say *what* you're spoiling. Otherwise how does the reader know whether it's safe to look? I don't consider this to be a spoiler, but if you're very sensitive to such things, then don't read it before Feet of Clay.)


I for one would absolutely use a car to attack a (hostile) dragon, if the opportunity presented itself. That's what tools are for - they make it possible to do things that would otherwise be impossible, or at least ridiculously hard.

Lawnmower - well, it's kinda hard to imagine a scenario in which I could use that against a dragon.

[Wraith]

(Note, there's not much point using spoiler tags unless you say *what* you're spoiling. Otherwise how does the reader know whether it's safe to look? I don't consider this to be a spoiler, but if you're very sensitive to such things, then don't read it before Feet of Clay.)

Fair enough - I thought it would be obvious that I was continuing the previous conversation, but I shall endeavour to do that in future. :smallsmile:


I for one would absolutely use a car to attack a (hostile) dragon, if the opportunity presented itself. That's what tools are for - they make it possible to do things that would otherwise be impossible, or at least ridiculously hard.

Lawnmower - well, it's kinda hard to imagine a scenario in which I could use that against a dragon.

I think it speaks not just of the mentality of the Ankh-Morporkians but also of the tropes at play in the story. Everyone was expecting a hero to show up and kill the beast because that's how the story goes; dragons are killed by heroes. Therefore they didn't look too far in order to find an alternative method of fighting it.

At the same time, no one wanted to step up and try to find out if they might be that hero - the odds were that they would just get immolated or eaten. That's entirely a Morporkian trait - expecting something to be done, but being the first one to get the ball rolling themselves is out of the question. :smalltongue:

Volunteering their own property when no one else had done so, I think, falls under that mentality. *You* might try using your car to fight the dragon because you're not a selfish bastard... Or maybe you are, because it's not your car that you're intending to sacrifice for the cause? That's pretty Morporkian, too :smallbiggrin:

As for the lawnmower comment.... That's pretty much my entire point. Golems were taken for granted - they were not seen as a universally adept humanoid, they were seen as "the thing that runs the treadmill" or "the thing that carries beef carcasses to the wagon". Why would you tell "the treadmill" to fight a dragon? What would "the treadmill" be able to do against a giant flying lizard? Especially if it's going to cost you $500AM to replace it if it gets broken?
It's not until much later, when Dorfl quite literally breaks the mould, that anyone realises just how moral and versatile that they can be - and even then, people still hate them and try to oppress them as "tools" to be owned.

[Lemmy]

Guards! Guards!

Finally finished "Guards! Guards!". I actually read the whole book in 3 sittings, because of how entertaining it is... But I had long breaks between my readings, since most of the time I was either busy or too tired to do read anything... :smallsigh:

... And I gotta say: I now understand why so many people say the City Guard books are their favorites. The characters are all memorable and likable, despite the relatively large cast! Carrot actually reminds me of one of my favorite RPG characters! A human raised by dwarves who refused to accept the fact that he was a human (he called himself "the world's tallest dwarf" and if anyone pointed out his lack of darkvision, he simply said that just because someone needs glasses, it doesn't make them a different race). Of course, Carrot and all the others are far better written than anything I could come up with. :smallbiggrin:

Captain Vimes, Carrot and the Patrician are some of my favorite characters in the series so far... And I can't forget The Librarian! That monkey ape is hilarious. But it was Carrot's naivety and sense of duty that made for the funniest moments in the book, IMHO. His letters home are super funny, and I was actually laughing out loud when he tries to arrest the dragon. And hey... We even get a quick reference to "Mort"!

So far, "Mort" remains as my favorite "main plot" in the Discworld series (Death itself has a mid-life crisis and history fights back against being changed), and "Sourcery" has my favorite history climax (Rincewind deciding to face the Sourcerer with just a brick in a sock, but then changing his mind not out of fear, but because he finds out the sourcerer is a just child is still the moment with greatest emotional impact so far, IMHO)... But "Guards Guards" definitely has my favorite cast! It's quite amazing how Sir Terry Pratchett managed to make so many characters so funny, memorable and likable.

Definitely another book to add to my list of favorites.

Next is "Eric", which I have no idea what's about... But I'm hyped! :smallbiggrin:

[The New Bruceski]

As was mentioned upthread, Eric starting its life as a graphic novel goes a long way towards explaining some of the off bits. Still a decent book, but not one I go back to reread much.

[farothel]

we had guards! guards! as theme at this year's Discworld Con. A lot of secret societies, a coronation banquet and dragons everywhere. It was great fun. And we did Nightwatch as the play.

Guards! Guards only shows the city watch for the first time. You'll get to know them better in later books and then you'll see that this book was just a very good introduction to what's about to come.

As to Eric, it's not the best but also not the worst of the series IMO. We did that one as the play a couple of Discworld Cons ago and it was great Whosname (you'll get that reference soon enough).

[veti]

As I think I mentioned, 'Eric' is my absolute favourite. Brevity is not a fault.

It riffs on the classics, by which I mean real, serious works from centuries ago. The legend of Faust (touching on both Goethe's and Marlowe's versions), the Aztec Empire, the story of the Trojan war, the Inferno. Oh, and the creation of the world. If you're familiar with those kinds of classics, you'll enjoy it.

[farothel]

As I think I mentioned, 'Eric' is my absolute favourite. Brevity is not a fault.

It riffs on the classics, by which I mean real, serious works from centuries ago. The legend of Faust (touching on both Goethe's and Marlowe's versions), the Aztec Empire, the story of the Trojan war, the Inferno. Oh, and the creation of the world. If you're familiar with those kinds of classics, you'll enjoy it.

that's oh so whossname… true.

[Manga Shoggoth]

As was mentioned upthread, Eric starting its life as a graphic novel goes a long way towards explaining some of the off bits. Still a decent book, but not one I go back to reread much.

It's not so much a graphic novel as an illustrated novel - you have straight text with pictures in the margins (admittedly for a very loose definition of margin...). However if you are going to read it I really would recommend the illustrated version. Just to get the full picture.

[LeMooseImperium]

Just read it in whatever order you find them.

[Jan Mattys]

Finally finished "Guards Guards!". I actually read the whole book in 3 sittings, because of how entertaining it is... But I had long breaks between my readings, since most of the time I was either busy or too tired to do read anything... :smallsigh:

... And I gotta say: I now understand why so many people say the City Guard books are their favorites. The characters are all memorable and likable, despite the relatively large cast! Carrot actually reminds me of one of my favorite RPG characters! A human raised by dwarves who refused to accept the fact that he was a human (he called himself "the world's tallest dwarf" and if anyone pointed out his lack of darkvision, he simply said that just because someone needs glasses, it doesn't make them a different race). Of course, Carrot and all the others are far better written than anything I could come up with. :smallbiggrin:

Captain Vimes, Carrot and the Patrician are some of my favorite characters in the series so far... And I can't forget The Librarian! That monkey ape is hilarious. But it was Carrot's naivety and sense of duty that made for the funniest moments in the book, IMHO. His letters home are super funny, and I was actually laughing out loud when he tries to arrest the dragon. And hey... We even get a quick reference to "Mort"!

The City Watch main Trilogy ("Guards Guards!", "Men at Arms" and "Feet of Clay") is truly a gem in its own right.

[Calemyr]

Finally finished "Guards Guards!". I actually read the whole book in 3 sittings, because of how entertaining it is... But I had long breaks between my readings, since most of the time I was either busy or too tired to do read anything... :smallsigh:

... And I gotta say: I now understand why so many people say the City Guard books are their favorites. The characters are all memorable and likable, despite the relatively large cast! Carrot actually reminds me of one of my favorite RPG characters! A human raised by dwarves who refused to accept the fact that he was a human (he called himself "the world's tallest dwarf" and if anyone pointed out his lack of darkvision, he simply said that just because someone needs glasses, it doesn't make them a different race). Of course, Carrot and all the others are far better written than anything I could come up with. :smallbiggrin:

Captain Vimes, Carrot and the Patrician are some of my favorite characters in the series so far... And I can't forget The Librarian! That monkey ape is hilarious. But it was Carrot's naivety and sense of duty that made for the funniest moments in the book, IMHO. His letters home are super funny, and I was actually laughing out loud when he tries to arrest the dragon. And hey... We even get a quick reference to "Mort"!

So far, "Mort" remains as my favorite "main plot" in the Discworld series (Death itself has a mid-life crisis and history fights back against being changed), and "Sourcery" has my favorite history climax (Rincewind deciding to face the Sourcerer with just a brick in a sock, but then changing his mind not out of fear, but because he finds out the sourcerer is a just child is still the moment with greatest emotional impact so far, IMHO)... But "Guards Guards" definitely has my favorite cast! It's quite amazing how Sir Terry Pratchett managed to make so many characters so funny, memorable and likable.

Definitely another book to add to my list of favorites.

Next is "Eric", which I have no idea what's about... But I'm hyped! :smallbiggrin:

Yep. Vimes, Carrot, and the Patrician are great and only going to get better, and I think they are at their best when their playing off one another. All three portray different kinds of good leaders - the practical, the inspiring, and the ruthless. Carrot's evolution in particular is amazing to watch, as he matures without ever ceasing to be... well... Carrot. Sadly, the Watch series is probably the only one I feel Pratchett never properly closed before passing away. It is an exceptional series, don't get me wrong, easily in my top three, but the story of Vimes and Carrot is hinted in places to be bigger than we get to see.

Plus, Colon and Nobby are the perfect everyman peanut gallery. The conversations they get into in random corners of random books have to be seen to be believed. They, along with Cut Me Own Throat Dibbler, are the loam this setting is built on.

Eric is an odd one, no doubt. It somehow manages to be "not exactly Discworld" and "perfectly Discworld" at the same time, as the structure seems a little off but the comedic pragmatism remains on point.

[Eldan]

On a recent re-read, it also first occured to me how interesting Nobby is when almost all he says to Colon is read as subtly sarcastic.

[Calemyr]

On a recent re-read, it also first occured to me how interesting Nobby is when almost all he says to Colon is read as subtly sarcastic.

Oh, yes. You can read him as earnest or sarcastic, and it works either way. But when you read it as sarcastic, as Nobby being much more aware than he lets on, he becomes hilarious. He becomes the biggest troll in the setting, and we have trolls that get mistaken for mountains! Colon thinks he's imparting hard won knowledge to a... young(?) man(?), and Nobby is just running verbal circles around him but Colon is just too simple to notice it (most of the time). He kinda reminds me of Rincewind and Carrot in that regard. Carrot because he proves that you can be simple without being stupid, and Rincewind by virtue of common sense being something of a handicap on the Disc. Sarcastic Nobby sees the world more clearly than most, and it just leaves him free to play mind games with his superior officer.

[Lemmy]

Eric

I finished "Eric". It's good to see Rincewind back. Eric's naivety and Rincewind's pessimism make for a hilarious combination. IMO the book keeps getting better as it goes on. I liked the first wish, enjoyed the second one more... But I particularly enjoyed seeing Rincewind in the Beginning of Time and DEATH on the opposite end. I love how DEATH gets agitated at the mere mention of Rincewind's name :smallbiggrin:. Although it lacks the powerful story climax from previous books, it was really funny to see demons effectively overthrowing the king of hell by burying him in a (quite literal) bureaucratic hell. And as always, it's clear that nothing is safe from PTerry's humor. I never expected to laugh at not-Ponce de León, not-Trojan Horse, not-Aztec Empire AND Not-Dante's Inferno all in the same book. And a very short book, at that. I'd say I feel sorry the book doesn't last longer, but it ends at a good point. I really like how Discworld books don't drag longer than they need, which can really ruin a story, but still many writers seem to not notice or care.

All in all, a good book. It's fun and short enough that I see myself re-reading it over a weekend to kill time. :smallsmile:

Next is "Moving Pictures"... Which I'm guessing has something to do with cinema? Or maybe it just has a very misleading title... I'm eager to find out. :smallbiggrin:

[Fyraltari]

Ah man, Moving Pictures, I hope you are up on your cinema trivia because this is where the references start flowing.

Rereading and seeing some familiar faces for the first time again is always atreat, but hush, hush, you will find out soon...

:smallbiggrin:

[Kato]

Nah, 'Moving pictures' is actually a Watch book about art smuggling (trust me, you need to read between the lines)

It's been a while but I think it was among the first books I read, still in German, but I can't remember the title. I think it was pretty decent, though a little bit heavy on the references with not too much depth. But that's not a problem I think.

[Cozzer]

Moving Pictures was pretty average for me (by which I mean Discworld average, which is still very good), but I remember I liked the main character, especially his very special brand of laziness.

[Calemyr]

Moving Pictures was pretty average for me (by which I mean Discworld average, which is still very good), but I remember I liked the main character, especially his very special brand of laziness.

Agreed. Victor is awesome, but the book is only "very good". It's one of the first "Wild Idea" books, though, which have always struck me as fascinating.

Plus, if I recall correctly, it's the introduction of Mrs. Cosmopolite, one of the most influential and mysterious beings on the Disc.

[farothel]

Plus, if I recall correctly, it's the introduction of Mrs. Cosmopolite, one of the most influential and mysterious beings on the Disc.

Two Words: Mrs. Cake.


As to Eric, a couple of Discworld Cons ago, we did Eric as the play. That was great fun, although it was quite hot underneat the stage as we had a smoke machine and a spot there to backlight (and put in smoke) the demon Quetzovercoatl (who was a handpuppet coming out of a trapdoor in the stage).

The demons don't really bury their leader in bureaucratic hell (it looks as if he has nothing to do actually), they promote him away.

[Calemyr]

Two Words: Mrs. Cake.

Oh, there's Cake, I'll give you that. She may be feared in religious institutions the world round, but Cosmopolite's influence is the greater of the two, regarded as the teacher of the greatest martial artist that's ever lived and the source of his infinite wisdom. Fear her might with substitious awe and be saved!

[hamishspence]

Quite a few of the more important Wizards (Ridcully, Ponder, etc) make their debut here as well.

[Cozzer]

I'm starting to be pretty interested in this Discworld Convention... where does it happen?

[farothel]

I'm starting to be pretty interested in this Discworld Convention... where does it happen?

There are many of them. There's one every two years in the UK (we just had that one at the beginning of the month so you'll have to wait). There are ones in North America, Australia, Germany, Ireland, the Netherlands and probably some others I don't know about. Google is your friend here I guess.

[Eldan]

Oh, yes. You can read him as earnest or sarcastic, and it works either way. But when you read it as sarcastic, as Nobby being much more aware than he lets on, he becomes hilarious. He becomes the biggest troll in the setting, and we have trolls that get mistaken for mountains! Colon thinks he's imparting hard won knowledge to a... young(?) man(?), and Nobby is just running verbal circles around him but Colon is just too simple to notice it (most of the time). He kinda reminds me of Rincewind and Carrot in that regard. Carrot because he proves that you can be simple without being stupid, and Rincewind by virtue of common sense being something of a handicap on the Disc. Sarcastic Nobby sees the world more clearly than most, and it just leaves him free to play mind games with his superior officer.

Yeah, that. For the longest time, I read them as "those two idiots". The Anti-Greek Chorus, two people who comment on the plot, but without understanding most of it or the themes. But once you read Nobby sarcastically, it opens up an entire new world that makes the character that much more interesting.

[dehro]

Yeah, that. For the longest time, I read them as "those two idiots". The Anti-Greek Chorus, two people who comment on the plot, but without understanding most of it or the themes. But once you read Nobby sarcastically, it opens up an entire new world that makes the character that much more interesting.

It never occurred to me that Nobby (or indeed any part of Pratchett's books) could be read anything but sarcastically...

[Eldan]

Really? There's always a lot of characters i'd read as brutally honest, or, well, straight idiots. Pratchett's narrator voice, sure. But not the characters.

I mean, would you ever read anything Colon says as sarcasm?

[Minty]

I generally got the impression towards the end of Discworld (say, from roughly Jingo onwards) that Pratchett had transitioned completely from being a writer of comedic fantasy to being a writer of social commentary and satire, especially of British culture and history, and setting his work in Discworld was mostly something he did to keep his publisher happy and because he liked using Sam Vimes as a protagonist. In the early books, the comedy is fairly broad and plots rely heavily on fantasy tropes. That reliance later disappears, and the comedy becomes so British that I have to wonder if international audiences really appreciate half of it.

Stuff like The Truth, Night Watch, Monstrous Regiment, Going Postal, etc, have virtually nothing in common with the early books in the series (apart from paying lip service to the setting), and needn't really have been set in Discworld at all. Monstrous Regiment, for instance, has fantasy elements because it's technically set in Discworld, but they are entirely incidental to what is really a mash up of 19th century war story tropes. I remain convinced that Pratchett would probably rather have not written that story as a Discworld novel at all, and likely only did so because Discworld books were what his audience wanted.

I remember a lot of people moaning when Nation was published, for no other reason than that it wasn't set in Discworld, but really, the later Discworld novels have more in common with Nation than they do with the earlier Discworld novels. I kind of feel like Nation was Pratchett's last attempt to escape the shackles of Discworld to write the stories that, by this point in his career, he actually wanted to write.

[Eldan]

I mean, he could write non-Discworld if he wanted. He had some short stories, he wrote Good Omens, there's the entire Long Earth series, all good books.

[Minty]

I mean, he could write non-Discworld if he wanted. He had some short stories, he wrote Good Omens, there's the entire Long Earth series, all good books.

I'm not sure that he had much to do with the Long Earth series other than the odd chat with Stephen Baxter. I think even his own books were being mostly ghostwritten by that point. Most of the non-Discworld stuff he wrote himself is from earlier in his career, mid 90s or earlier.

I suppose it wouldn't be accurate to say that he didn't want to write Discworld. More that Discworld changed to the point that it was practically something else, which kind of suggests he used the setting out of convenience for whatever story he wanted to tell (and because it guaranteed an audience), rather than because the stories actually needed to be set there.

[The_Snark]

I'm not sure that he had much to do with the Long Earth series other than the odd chat with Stephen Baxter. I think even his own books were being mostly ghostwritten by that point. Most of the non-Discworld stuff he wrote himself is from earlier in his career, mid 90s or earlier.

Having read some Stephen Baxter, I'm pretty confident that Pratchett was actively co-writing at least portions of it. (The first few books, anyway, I haven't read the whole series.) The two have very different styles.

[farothel]

I'm not sure that he had much to do with the Long Earth series other than the odd chat with Stephen Baxter. I think even his own books were being mostly ghostwritten by that point. Most of the non-Discworld stuff he wrote himself is from earlier in his career, mid 90s or earlier.

I suppose it wouldn't be accurate to say that he didn't want to write Discworld. More that Discworld changed to the point that it was practically something else, which kind of suggests he used the setting out of convenience for whatever story he wanted to tell (and because it guaranteed an audience), rather than because the stories actually needed to be set there.

At the end his books were dictated to his PA, who then put them on paper as Terry had trouble with typing (he said at an interview that one of the first signs he got about his disease was that letters would disappear from his vision, making typing hard). But he still dictated the books himself. Are they then written by him? I would say yes, even if he didn't do the actual act of writing himself.

As to the other comment, yes the setting has changed, but I'm not sure if that is because he just wrote stuff in Discworld because it was convenient. The Discworld books were written over the course of 30+ years, and people change in such a time. Some could have been, but I'm not really convinced. Terry did say that after a while he had trouble placing books in Ankh-Morpork because then they quickly became Vimes books, even if he didn't want them to.

As to stories becoming more British, again, it's not what I read in the books. In fact, Wyrd Sisters is based heavily on Shakespeare, which is about as British as you can get (and since I'm not a fan of Shakespeare, I'm not a big fan of that book either), while for instance the story of a girl joining the army in disguise (Monstrous Regiment) is quite common in many cultures. Even Disney has done a movie on it, so quite a lot of people should recognise the basics of that book.

[Fyraltari]

Besides that the Disc is changing is a plot point in several books.

[Kato]

Hm.. I feel like not chiming in on the "how much did he write himself at the end" discussion... I think most people agree there was some decline towards the end but cause and extent are too speculative for me.

On the previous topic: yes, reading Nobby as extremely sarcastic when he is with Colon greatly enhances the character, but then at times he does stupid things which make that interpretation highly unlikely.

[dehro]

there were several examples across many of the later books where Ankh-Morpork was changing, evolving and "modernising".. and the Discworld with it..
without going into spoilers, I think it's fair to say that a number of technological advancements (discworld flavoured of course) bring an element of steampunkery to the general atmosphere, which is in turn a fertile environment for Pratchett's satire on roundworld.

[Wraith]

It never occurred to me that Nobby (or indeed any part of Pratchett's books) could be read anything but sarcastically...


On the previous topic: yes, reading Nobby as extremely sarcastic when he is with Colon greatly enhances the character, but then at times he does stupid things which make that interpretation highly unlikely.

I have on occasion reread the Watch books and tried to interpret Nobby Nobbs not as sarcastic, but genuinely as stupid and uncomplicated as he presents himself.

It's an interesting experience. It changes the dynamic between him and Sgt.Colon into something more traditionally comedic rather than "British Comedy". With Sarcastic Nobby it's a lot more like Edmund Blackadder having a devious conversation at the expense of the Crown Prince, or Basil Fawlty politely insulting one of his guests; with Idiot Nobby it's more like Laurel and Hardy, or another similar double act wherein each competes to be more inept than the other. :smallbiggrin:

It's very likely deliberate - that he can be either or both depending on the situation. Pretty much everything that happens in Jingo is an exercise in how he flips from one to the other, and then also has some genuine moments in between.

[Calemyr]

Well, every time a Wild Idea hits the Disc, it leaves a mark even if the Idea itself doesn't stick. The repeated blows gradually change the Disc. If you hate the evolution of Discworld, you should be a major fan of Leonard, who serves as a lightning rod for Wild Ideas and keeps the damage to a minimum.

Personally, I'm a fan of parallel evolution, the idea of a world evolving similar to ours with different initial settings. When I run table top games, I like to use a "magitek" setting, where people employ their existing magical elements to inform their setting, like using a Decanter of Endless Water or three to serve as the foundation of a city's plumbing system, or an army of clockwork insects that build and maintain a fortress, or magical gates being reproduced and institutionalized as a public transportation system. That kind of thing fascinates me, so I like how the Disc develops as a natural evolution of the things that happen there.

[Eldan]

The first two times or so I read those books, I always took Nobby at face value, as an idiot. Then, you have lawful grumpy older man idiot Colon and quirky criminal younger man idiot Nobby. Reading Nobby as sarcastic was a bit of a revelation.

[Minty]

At the end his books were dictated to his PA, who then put them on paper as Terry had trouble with typing (he said at an interview that one of the first signs he got about his disease was that letters would disappear from his vision, making typing hard). But he still dictated the books himself. Are they then written by him? I would say yes, even if he didn't do the actual act of writing himself.

That might explain it then. Writing and dictating are two different things, so I wouldn't be surprised if the output of one didn't quite match the other, stylistically. I got the distinct impression in Unseen Academicals and Snuff that it was not the same author.

[Calemyr]

That might explain it then. Writing and dictating are two different things, so I wouldn't be surprised if the output of one didn't quite match the other, stylistically. I got the distinct impression in Unseen Academicals and Snuff that it was not the same author.

Well, you can see his mindset shifting as early as Unseen Academicals, growing more focused on passing the torch to a new generation rather than playing with his favorites. I think that perspective switch played a pretty big role in the shift.

[brionl]

As to stories becoming more British, again, it's not what I read in the books. In fact, Wyrd Sisters is based heavily on Shakespeare, which is about as British as you can get (and since I'm not a fan of Shakespeare, I'm not a big fan of that book either), while for instance the story of a girl joining the army in disguise (Monstrous Regiment) is quite common in many cultures. Even Disney has done a movie on it, so quite a lot of people should recognise the basics of that book.

The basic idea of Monstrous Regiment is quite common, yes. But practically all the details of Borogravian army are 100% 19th century British army.

[hamishspence]

The basic idea of Monstrous Regiment is quite common, yes. But practically all the details of Borogravian army are 100% 19th century British army.

With a few modifications for technology at least (nobody has rifles or muskets - the most sophisticated form of missile weapon is the hand crossbow).

Borogravia itself seems a little bit less "British" than its army does.

[dehro]

The basic idea of Monstrous Regiment is quite common, yes. But practically all the details of Borogravian army are 100% 19th century British army.


With a few modifications for technology at least (nobody has rifles or muskets - the most sophisticated form of missile weapon is the hand crossbow).

Borogravia itself seems a little bit less "British" than its army does.

for some reason it made me think of the Prussian army, or indeed any army that you'd find on the field of battle at Waterloo..

[Tvtyrant]

I was always pretty disappointed that Pratchett didn't kill Vetenari. It felt like the logical conclusion of the books, and the novels started pointing towards the torch passing with Men at Arms. He steadily build up characters to replace the old oligarchy, have Vimes develop into the unimpeachable man, and then just never actually took the plunge.

[farothel]

I was always pretty disappointed that Pratchett didn't kill Vetenari. It felt like the logical conclusion of the books, and the novels started pointing towards the torch passing with Men at Arms. He steadily build up characters to replace the old oligarchy, have Vimes develop into the unimpeachable man, and then just never actually took the plunge.

Maybe he planned to do so, but couldn't before he sadly passed away. Besides, I don't see Vimes ruling Ankh-Morpork.

[Tvtyrant]

Maybe he planned to do so, but couldn't before he sadly passed away. Besides, I don't see Vimes ruling Ankh-Morpork.
It was probably going to be some sort of council of King, Moist, Vimes, etc.

[Fyraltari]

If someone was to succeed Vetinari it would be Moist Von Lipwig with William de Worde and Vimes/CArrot (Vimes is not that young) keeping him in check.

[tyckspoon]

Maybe he planned to do so, but couldn't before he sadly passed away. Besides, I don't see Vimes ruling Ankh-Morpork.

I think the last step would have been creating an independent judiciary, which is something Pratchett didn't quite around to. In everything else you can see Vetinari building the civil institutions needed to allow Ankh-Morpork to operate without him at the center, most especially allowing and aiding the growth of the Watch as an actual police force and not just the personal enforcers of the city's power groups. But the office of the Patrician is still shown as the city's highest judge and office of last appeal, which is something Vetinari probably wanted to change as part of his legacy to the city - as long as that still held than it would only take one Lord Snapcase to plunge the city right back into the Bad Old Days.

And yes, Vimes would go quite mad trying to govern Ankh-Morpork.

[dehro]

you guys...spoilers...

[Calemyr]

If someone was to succeed Vetinari it would be Moist Von Lipwig with William de Worde and Vimes/CArrot (Vimes is not that young) keeping him in check.

Oh, that's priceless.
Lipwig: Are you people mad?! I'm a con artist, not a politician!
Vimes: I fail to see a distinction.


I think the last step would have been creating an independent judiciary, which is something Pratchett didn't quite around to. In everything else you can see Vetinari building the civil institutions needed to allow Ankh-Morpork to operate without him at the center, most especially allowing and aiding the growth of the Watch as an actual police force and not just the personal enforcers of the city's power groups. But the office of the Patrician is still shown as the city's highest judge and office of last appeal, which is something Vetinari probably wanted to change as part of his legacy to the city - as long as that still held than it would only take one Lord Snapcase to plunge the city right back into the Bad Old Days.

And yes, Vimes would go quite mad trying to govern Ankh-Morpork.

I don't think he wanted an independent judiciary, for the same reasons he disliked democracy. A tyrant can get things done. A governing body of elected officials can not. A bad tyrant can get bad things done, yes, but heroes always get them ousted eventually, while a good tyrant can do a world of good.

In other words, he didn't want to work on government, he wanted the city to function regardless of the government.

[farothel]

Oh, that's priceless.
Lipwig: Are you people mad?! I'm a con artist, not a politician!
Vimes: I fail to see a distinction.


That's oh so true … unfortunately.

[brionl]

With a few modifications for technology at least (nobody has rifles or muskets - the most sophisticated form of missile weapon is the hand crossbow).

Borogravia itself seems a little bit less "British" than its army does.

The Duchess == Queen Victoria, for the most part. Among other things, her husband died fairly young, and she did largely withdraw from public life afterwards. But they had a boatload of children, instead of none.

[veti]

I don't think Vetinari has done much at all to prepare for his own death.

The later city books do show the beginnings of growth of city institutions. But what they don't show is any notion, on Vetinari's part, of the concept of pluralism - the idea that political power should be divided between several centres, not all concentrated in one body.

For all the modernisation, V never encourages anyone to think of themselves as having authority in their own right. Every time someone seems set to assert some kind of independence, he takes his own steps to make his attitude clear: independence is great, but just remember who's in charge, OK? And Pratchett, in what I feel is a disappointing narrative cop-out, always endorses this position, by fielding a villain who unites Vetinari with his potential rival in common cause.

A partial exception comes up very late, when Moist suddenly acquires real power in the form of a golem army. But he does that very much behind Vetinari's back.

I agree that Moist is Vetinari's natural successor. Vimes is too old, and Carrot too - royal. But at best, he's set to be another benign despot. There's a long, long way to go before Ankh-Morpork is ready for any other kind of government.

[RossN]

I generally got the impression towards the end of Discworld (say, from roughly Jingo onwards) that Pratchett had transitioned completely from being a writer of comedic fantasy to being a writer of social commentary and satire, especially of British culture and history, and setting his work in Discworld was mostly something he did to keep his publisher happy and because he liked using Sam Vimes as a protagonist. In the early books, the comedy is fairly broad and plots rely heavily on fantasy tropes. That reliance later disappears, and the comedy becomes so British that I have to wonder if international audiences really appreciate half of it.

Stuff like The Truth, Night Watch, Monstrous Regiment, Going Postal, etc, have virtually nothing in common with the early books in the series (apart from paying lip service to the setting), and needn't really have been set in Discworld at all. Monstrous Regiment, for instance, has fantasy elements because it's technically set in Discworld, but they are entirely incidental to what is really a mash up of 19th century war story tropes. I remain convinced that Pratchett would probably rather have not written that story as a Discworld novel at all, and likely only did so because Discworld books were what his audience wanted.

I remember a lot of people moaning when Nation was published, for no other reason than that it wasn't set in Discworld, but really, the later Discworld novels have more in common with Nation than they do with the earlier Discworld novels. I kind of feel like Nation was Pratchett's last attempt to escape the shackles of Discworld to write the stories that, by this point in his career, he actually wanted to write.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I've said it before but as someone who found the heroic/medieval fantasy trappings of the early books a big part of their appeal the pseudo-steampunk Disc of the later series lost some of its charm, even if I still think they are objectively good books (I think the Moist books in particular were hard for me to get into thanks to this.)

Glad you liked Eric Lemmy. I reread it very recently and while it isn't my favourite Rincewind book it was fun. :smallsmile:

[Balmas]

While on the subject of best/favourite books, I'm curious as to what everyone has as their favourite stories by "plot line", just to see if mine match up.

Watchmen: THUD!
I'm kind of surprised that, in reading this thread, nobody's named this as their favorite. While Night Watch is an excellent examination of Vimes as an embodiment of what it means to be a good policeman, I've always found THUD!'s portrayal of Vimes as a father to be far more compelling and interesting. There's always one scene that makes me break down, and it's not the Where is My Cow scene; it's the line: "A short dark figure was at the top of the stairs and disappearing into the nursery." There's a sheer terror, a gut-clenching fear that has my heart in my chest when I read that line because it's difficult to separate myself from the character at that point. They're going for my family, for my son, and even after a dozen times reading I still feel the urge to weep with both relief and joy at young Sam's rescue.

Plus, Willikins is a boss and I love him.
Rincewind/Wizards: Interesting Times.
Death/Susan: Hogfather
I maintain that "Humans need stories to be human; to be the place where the fallen angel meets the rising ape" is one of the best lines in the entire series.
The Witches: Maskerade or Lords and Ladies, depending on which aspect of story telling I want to explore.
Moist: Going Postal
One-offs: The Truth. I dunno, I kind of feel that The Truth is in the same continuity as the Moist series. It's got the same theme of new ideas, new industrialization, and the logical impacts that has on a fantasy world.

[Calemyr]

One-offs: The Truth. I dunno, I kind of feel that The Truth is in the same continuity as the Moist series. It's got the same theme of new ideas, new industrialization, and the logical impacts that has on a fantasy world.

The Truth is a particularly good book. The characters are really interesting, the conflict a wonderful mix of personal and epic, and the climax really drives it home. Otto is also one of my favorite characters to read aloud, rivaled only by Teatime and Rob Anybody's crew.

I wouldn't say it's in the Moist vein, though. Except as a foil to Moist, possibly. Moist's books are about a con man using his talents to incite civic change, whether he wants to or not. The Truth, however, is about De Worde - a man who knows what he wants to be and what he most certainly doesn't want to be. Moist thrives on a challenge, De Worde is driven by his passions. Both are tied to Wild Ideas, but Moist tends to be the victim of several them (and struggling to survive them as they drag him in) while De Worde devotes himself to the pursuit of a specific one. Finally, De Worde finds contentment in his profession, while Moist becomes nigh suicidally bored when he gets too good at any given profession.

[Telonius]

I don't think Vetinari has done much at all to prepare for his own death.

The later city books do show the beginnings of growth of city institutions. But what they don't show is any notion, on Vetinari's part, of the concept of pluralism - the idea that political power should be divided between several centres, not all concentrated in one body.

For all the modernisation, V never encourages anyone to think of themselves as having authority in their own right. Every time someone seems set to assert some kind of independence, he takes his own steps to make his attitude clear: independence is great, but just remember who's in charge, OK? And Pratchett, in what I feel is a disappointing narrative cop-out, always endorses this position, by fielding a villain who unites Vetinari with his potential rival in common cause.

A partial exception comes up very late, when Moist suddenly acquires real power in the form of a golem army. But he does that very much behind Vetinari's back.

I agree that Moist is Vetinari's natural successor. Vimes is too old, and Carrot too - royal. But at best, he's set to be another benign despot. There's a long, long way to go before Ankh-Morpork is ready for any other kind of government.

Well, there is that theory that Vetinari is actually a vampire. Not sure I buy it, but he has been linked to Lady Margolotta. If that were true he wouldn't really have any cause to prepare for his own death.

[Calemyr]

Well, there is that theory that Vetinari is actually a vampire. Not sure I buy it, but he has been linked to Lady Margolotta. If that were true he wouldn't really have any cause to prepare for his own death.

I don't think he's a vampire. More to the point, I think he actively wants to avoid setting up a government to follow his departure for a few reasons:
1) He doesn't want to set up obstacles to his own progressive agenda, which extra government will inevitably do.
2) He firmly believes that the first step in remaining despot is to make one not being despot unthinkable. Setting up a government to succeed him is exactly what he doesn't want to do - that is raising the question of him not being around anymore, after all.
3) He knows full well that all three of his most suitable successors (Carrot, Vimes, and Moist) would never take the position willingly. The only way to force any of them to act is to have his demise dip the city in complete and utter chaos. To save the city, any of them would take the job if forced to, cursing Vetinari's name all the way.

In other words, planning for his own displacement is not productive and in fact would be a hindrance. Instead, he uses his political capital to build the city up as much as he humanly can before he dies, and leaves it to the "good guys" to sort the government out for themselves afterwards.

Now that I think of it, Vetinari's philosophy makes it clear who he'd want for a successor. Yep, it's Moist. Carrot and Vimes are "good guys" and are thus well suited for bringing down "bad guys" but not for running a government. Moist is most certainly not a "good guy", albeit a con artist rather than an assassin, and indeed shows an exceptional talent for administration to the point that he routinely works himself out of a job. I was laughing at the idea earlier, but I think Patrician Lipwig seems like it would have been the ultimate endgame for Watch books. Given that Vimes and Vetinari are roughly the same age, however, Vimes playing a major role would be counter-productive for a changing of the guard ending.

So... that's my new headcanon. Lipwig in the oblong office, with Carrot quietly but firmly "advising" him from the shadows. Pity that book will never be written.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't think he's a vampire. More to the point, I think he actively wants to avoid setting up a government to follow his departure for a few reasons:
1) He doesn't want to set up obstacles to his own progressive agenda, which extra government will inevitably do.
2) He firmly believes that the first step in remaining despot is to make one not being despot unthinkable. Setting up a government to succeed him is exactly what he doesn't want to do - that is raising the question of him not being around anymore, after all.
3) He knows full well that all three of his most suitable successors (Carrot, Vimes, and Moist) would never take the position willingly. The only way to force any of them to act is to have his demise dip the city in complete and utter chaos. To save the city, any of them would take the job if forced to, cursing Vetinari's name all the way.

In other words, planning for his own displacement is not productive and in fact would be a hindrance. Instead, he uses his political capital to build the city up as much as he humanly can before he dies, and leaves it to the "good guys" to sort the government out for themselves afterwards.

Now that I think of it, Vetinari's philosophy makes it clear who he'd want for a successor. Yep, it's Moist. Carrot and Vimes are "good guys" and are thus well suited for bringing down "bad guys" but not for running a government. Moist is most certainly not a "good guy", albeit a con artist rather than an assassin, and indeed shows an exceptional talent for administration to the point that he routinely works himself out of a job. I was laughing at the idea earlier, but I think Patrician Lipwig seems like it would have been the ultimate endgame for Watch books. Given that Vimes and Vetinari are roughly the same age, however, Vimes playing a major role would be counter-productive for a changing of the guard ending.

So... that's my new headcanon. Lipwig in the oblong office, with Carrot quietly but firmly "advising" him from the shadows. Pity that book will never be written.

I personally thought they were going for a council of new bloods approach. They slowly but consistently reduce the power of both the nobles and the guilds, and place new meritocrats like Moist, Vimes, De Word, King and Stibbons into places of power. Even the old gangs are being replaced by the Troll mafia.

Vetenari's plan seems to be to slowly gather the reins of power into the hands of the government and government back enterprises (takes control of crime fighting (several books), banks (making money), communications (Going Postal), transportation (raising steam), and is working on industrial factories powered by the device.

The rise of guilded age industrialists and expanded government was replacing the old guilds and nobles and then the series ended.

[Calemyr]

I personally thought they were going for a council of new bloods approach. They slowly but consistently reduce the power of both the nobles and the guilds, and place new meritocrats like Moist, Vimes, De Word, King and Stibbons into places of power. Even the old gangs are being replaced by the Troll mafia.

Vetenari's plan seems to be to slowly gather the reins of power into the hands of the government and government back enterprises (takes control of crime fighting (several books), banks (making money), communications (Going Postal), transportation (raising steam), and is working on industrial factories powered by the device.

The rise of guilded age industrialists and expanded government was replacing the old guilds and nobles and then the series ended.

Oddly, he hasn't actually taken over any of those things. He's put people he can trust in charge of them, even when it takes decades for someone to grow into the role as it did with Vimes. Government oversight, but not government administration, if you follow me. He's building the city infrastructure, but not the government's role in it. He's putting every ounce of his political capital into making the city effectively bomb-proof, regardless of what government takes over after his departure, because we've seen rather clearly what happens to the city when the Patrician is removed (The Truth) or even sick (Feet of Clay): it falls apart and the old guard jumps back in to take all the power they can. I believe, if the thread had ever been completed, Vetinari would say this Great Undertaking was to build a city that could outlive its rulers rather than being reinvented every time there is a coup.

Vetinari runs Ankh-Morpork as a meritocracy - Vimes and Moist get their ever increasing power because they earn it. He wouldn't be nearly so amiable with Carrot if Carrot weren't a proper leader in his own right. He tolerates De Worde and King because they, too, earn what power they get even if he wasn't the one to give it to them. I mean, he'd probably be okay letting Carrot take over if he ever so much as asked to, but that's because Carrot is awesome and not for any trivial reasons.

[Rodin]

Otto is also one of my favorite characters to read aloud, rivaled only by Teatime and Rob Anybody's crew.


His "Oh, SHEEE-YUT!!" is still one of my favorite exclamations of all time, to the point that I still use it occasionally in real life.

[Lemmy]

Moving Pictures

Finally finished "Moving Pictures". It's a very fun book that introduces a bunch of new characters, most of which are very likeable and/or entertaining.

I particularly liked Gaspode and the trolls (specially their courtship rituals)... Although C.M.O.T Dibbler was hilarious as the greedy producer meddling with the story. The little nods to the history of cinema and the whole concept of "Holy Wood magic" were really fun... Heh... I love how they find the closing line for "Gone With The Wind" "Blown Away".

The history climax is as fun as always... The mix between "Attack of the 50 ft woman" and "King Kong" was hilarious. It actually saddens me that Holy Wood is gone and moving pictures were forbidden. I hope they find a way to return. I'd like to see more of Victor, Ginger and Gaspode.

Next, I believe is "Reaper Man", which sounds like a DEATH book... Considering how much I loved "Mort", I'm pretty excited!

[hamishspence]

I particularly liked Gaspode and the trolls (specially their courtship rituals)... Although C.M.O.T Dibbler was hilarious as the greedy producer meddling with the story.

I love the Brick Joke at the end, where Dibbler's

(nearly a) thousand elephants

finally arrive in Ankh Morpork.

[Fyraltari]

Finally finished "Moving Pictures". It's a very fun book that introduces a bunch of new characters, most of which are very likeable and/or entertaining.
Most of them stick around! :smallsmile:


I particularly liked Gaspode and the trolls (specially their courtship rituals)... Although C.M.O.T Dibbler was hilarious as the greedy producer meddling with the story. The little nods to the history of cinema and the whole concept of "Holy Wood magic" were really fun... Heh... I love how they find the closing line for "Gone With The Wind" "Blown Away".
You better get used to this kind of thing!


The history climax is as fun as always... The mix between "Attack of the 50 ft woman" and "King Kong" was hilarious. It actually saddens me that Holy Wood is gone and moving pictures were forbidden. I hope they find a way to return. I'd like to see more of Victor, Ginger and Gaspode.
Holy Wood doesn't come back. The first few Wild Ideas don't. It's only with the Truth that they start doing so.

Next, I believe is "Reaper Man", which sounds like a DEATH book... Considering how much I loved "Mort", I'm pretty excited!
That one defenitely my least loved of DEATH's books. It isn't bad or anything but it's an average Discworld book for me while the others are some of the very best.

[Calemyr]

Next, I believe is "Reaper Man", which sounds like a DEATH book... Considering how much I loved "Mort", I'm pretty excited!

"Reaper Man" is definitely a Death book and that line has a very high bar of quality. If you liked "Mort", I think you'll really like this one, as it continues Death's development as a character and a job, this time without Mort's perspective getting in the way of things. It's got an awful lot of side stories muddying things up, which I feel drags the overall quality down some, but, when the story is focused on Death, it's really on point.

Also, a minor spoiler regarding a favorite Moving Pictures character:
Gaspode will return, and pretty soon. "Men at Arms", I believe. And he remains every bit as awesome as he was in Moving Pictures, presenting a far more practical mindset than most of the "intelligent" species seem capable of. So, yeah. He's a lot of fun.

[Spacewolf]

Ah yes, reaper man is my personal favourite so look forward to seeing what you think. (It does have some issues but won't mention them until you are finished to avoid tainting your perception.)

[farothel]

They will mention Holy wood a couple of times, mostly as a negative example. Just like Mr. Hong and his take-away bar.

[RossN]

This going to sound super hypocritical given I'm forever moaning about the steammagipunk version of the Disc in the later books but I honestly wished the clicks stuck around. I don't know whether the difference is I just love the cinema (which alone makes Moving Pictures great for me) or because the moving pictures are so clearly their own unique thing rather than some greater kernel of industrialistion.

Regarding Gaspode.

I wasn't a huge fan of the Men at Arms retcon that all dogs are as smart as he is and that Laddie is just a simpleton.

[Fyraltari]

I wasn't a huge fan of the Men at Arms retcon that all dogs are as smart as he is and that Laddie is just a simpleton.

I don't remember that.

Wasn't the idea th[at he slept too close to magic waste?