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TheYell
2018-07-08, 04:05 PM
So I've been asked to take the plunge and GM a game. I want to do the Emerald Spire module of Pathfinder, mixed with some mythic tiers. We'll probably do about six hours every three weeks, and I thought I'd ask for any advice you have for a first-time GM.

My idea is to do epic high fantasy, with the fast XP track, so these guys can experience the higher levels of their characters before we finish. The conceit is that these guys are chosen by a god to crack the Emerald Spire dungeon, so I want them to come up with some sense of Destiny-- choosing a background out of Tome of Secrets and pick a Story feat I can work around.

Any scraps of information you guys could give me are welcome.

One question i have is about choosing the CR level of encounters, how do I rate the CR level of the party?

Party btw is a mix of new pathfinder players and experienced DMs, guys in their twenties and a couple in their forties. We meet every week and rotate games and have been together about six months so we have a good cohesion together and I feel comfortable about playing with them.

JoeJ
2018-07-08, 04:29 PM
First of all, it's great that you're taking the plunge, as it were. I'll leave the question about CR for others who are more familiar with Pathfinder, and limit myself to more general advice about being a GM.

I strongly advise you not to do anything long or complicated for your first experience. In fact, I suggest you run a short one-shot adventure with pregenerated characters, to give yourself a chance to get familiar with how things work on the other side of the GM's screen, and to let the others get a sense of what your GMing style will be. Then go ahead with your idea.

You're going to make mistakes. You'll forget things, misinterpret rules, misinterpret what the players are telling you, describe things in ways that are confusing, give too many choices, give too few choices, design encounters that are too strong or too weak, and a bunch more. Accept that this is going to happen, and don't obsess over it. Admit that you made a mistake, make whatever correction is necessary, and move on.

Don't try and manipulate the PCs into doing what you think the adventure requires. If you don't feel ready or don't want to offer unlimited choices, explain to the players OOC that you're more comfortable with a linear adventure and ask them to play along.

The most important thing to remember is that you're all playing to have fun. No matter how you do it, how closely you follow the rules, what you do or don't allow, which character does or doesn't get killed, as long as everybody is enjoying the game and planning to come back next session, you're doing it right.

Mr Beer
2018-07-08, 06:53 PM
Yeah definitely don't plan to start your epic 60 session mega campaign in session 1. Keep it simple.

It's better to say 'yes and...' than 'no you can't'.

Run a couple of fights by yourself before the session. If you can get one friend over to play either the characters or the monsters for you, do that. You don't need to know everything but you do need to get the simple, frequently used mechanics down pat.

Don't get bogged down in lengthy rules discussions. Let someone have their say, make the fairest ruling you can think of and tell them that we can get into it after the game.

Also try not to spend 20 minutes looking stuff up, especially mid-battle. Estimate/ask/guess and move on. Like it doesn't matter if the goblin leader has either +3 or +4 to hit, if you need to hit the books to find out, pick one of them and roll now.

Sort of corollary, the rule of cool is a lot more fun than the rule of textbook, I'm not saying throw the rules out but if you have an edge case or you're not sure, go with cool.

Plan a session that's not too long and finish on time, you will get tired first game you run because thinking is hard.

WindStruck
2018-07-08, 06:59 PM
A couple relevant tips off the top of my head. Don't let the players get away with too much cheese. And when designing encounters, CR is not the end all be all. There are tons of other factors that go into play, some even environmental or circumstantial.

Mr Beer
2018-07-08, 07:00 PM
Avoid railroading but also it's OK to say 'well this is the adventure I planned, so if you guys don't want to rescue the princess that's up to you but you'll need to tell me what you want to do instead and then we'll do that next session when I've planned for it'. It's also OK to wing it but frankly if it was my first time I'd be expecting the players to cooperate rather than shoving sticks into the wheels.

Egregious DM mistakes that are common for first timers include DMNPCs that the story revolves around, the DM's novel in adventure format that the PCs have to follow 'correctly' to fit the narrative, and having a world stuffed full of jerk NPCs that are too powerful or inconvenient to murder. The story is about the players rather than the world.

Allow the plot to progress, so players often don't pay attention which is why the rule of having 3 clues comes up a lot in game advice. Also let their ideas work, especially when it advances the adventure. Just because you didn't think of bribing the count doesn't mean that it can't happen. Of course if the idea is terrible let it fail, like if they sling Count Incorruptible a silver piece to free a murderer, but try to make the failure entertaining. At least have him make a speech in a comically pompous voice or have a fit of the vapours or something.

It's OK to have combat encounters that the PCs waltz through, not every battle has to be a knife-edge struggle to survive. They are heroes after all...let them wade through incompetent bandits and bar-room bullies and kamikaze goblins. It makes it all the more meaningful when they get into the tough fights.

Mr Beer
2018-07-08, 07:22 PM
Decide what sources you are going to allow for characters before you start and tell the players up front so everyone is on the same page when they build their PCs. Let them know about any house rules you are using, I would suggest you go by RAW for your first game though. Check character sheets before the first game session to make sure they are no nasty surprises lurking there.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-08, 07:29 PM
People will tell you it's your responsibility to make sure everyone has fun. They're lying. It's your job to play the world and follow the rules. Fun is a collective responsibility. Don't stress over it. You're not a circus performer there to make sure everyone's entertained.

Rerem115
2018-07-08, 08:09 PM
Expect your party to wipe the floor with your super cool bosses and easily slalom through all your most difficult encounters, only to lose a member or two to environmental hazards or getting critted 5 times in a row by some wimpy little derp of a minion.

Jay R
2018-07-08, 09:48 PM
Get through the session. That's all.

You will make some mistakes. That's fine. We all did - and still do.

The primary goal of a first-time DM is to become a second-time DM.

HighWater
2018-07-09, 02:38 AM
Expect your party to wipe the floor with your super cool bosses and easily slalom through all your most difficult encounters, only to lose a member or two to environmental hazards or getting critted 5 times in a row by some wimpy little derp of a minion.

Also, if you can, rescue that minion from that encounter. It is now their new archnemesis!

Seconding those who say that DM'ing is the hardest role at the table (and a lot of fun), so start with something easy.

When you do start on your inevitable 60+ games story, DON'T try to buy yourself time by including an "epic travel" that takes a bunch of sessions but in which very little story-relevant stuff happens. The story is what holds your game together, if the mortar is missing, your individual bricks can be super awesome, but the wall will start to lean over none the less... Make story mistakes instead and either correct them or roll with them. :smallbiggrin:

I do miss being a player, but I'm pretty sure I'd miss being the DM too!

Firest Kathon
2018-07-09, 03:45 AM
I want to do the Emerald Spire module of Pathfinder, mixed with some mythic tiers.
I would not mix a pre-made adventure with mythic tiers. Mythic makes the characters quite powerful, so any non-mythic opponent will be that much weaker. If you do this, you would also have to mythic-fy at least the boss encounters in the dungeon - a heavy task for a first-time GM. My advise here is to make sure you don't put too much on your plate and keep the mytic for later. It's better to have a well-executed average first campaign than a glorious campaign that goes down in flames after two sessions or so.


My idea is to do epic high fantasy, with the fast XP track, so these guys can experience the higher levels of their characters before we finish.
For pre-made dungeons, I would do a no-XP advancement, simply have the PCs level up whenever the adventure expects them to (in Emerald Spire I think after each level?). Otherwise, if they level up to fast you have to update the encounters, if they level up too slow you have to throw in additional random encounters to get the up to the needed XP. In nearly all my groups we have completely dispensed with XP.


One question i have is about choosing the CR level of encounters, how do I rate the CR level of the party?
The challenge rating of the group is called the Average Party Level (APL) and is just that, the average level of the party. Ideally the party is all on the same level, and that is then also the APL. The guidelines (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/) say that the party should face challenges with a CR between APL-1 (easy) to APL+3 (epic), with most encounters being APL+0 to APL+1. The 3.5 GM Guide said that an encounter of APL+0 will make the party use about 1/4 of their daily resources (spells, abilities, ...), this should also hold true for Pathfinder.

However, keep in mind that the CR of monsters may be misleading. Take e.g. the Allip (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/allip). With a CR of 3, it should be only a "challenging" encounter for a party of APL2, but as an incorporeal creature it cannot be harmed by non-magical weapons, which you may not have yet at level 2 (expected wealth is 1000gp, a magical weapon costs at least 2000gp). Even if you arcane caster has Magic Missiles prepared, if would likely not be enough to take down the 30hp of the Allip. So in addition to the CR you should also check the abilities of the monsters to make sure the party can beat them. If you want a high-CR encounter, you should rather take multiple low-CR enemies instead of a single high-CR enemy.


Party btw is a mix of new pathfinder players and experienced DMs, guys in their twenties and a couple in their forties. We meet every week and rotate games and have been together about six months so we have a good cohesion together and I feel comfortable about playing with them.
Ask the experienced players to consider that you are a first-time GM and run a pre-made module, and that they should therefor make sure that their characters are not too strong.


Avoid railroading but also it's OK to say 'well this is the adventure I planned, so if you guys don't want to rescue the princess that's up to you but you'll need to tell me what you want to do instead and then we'll do that next session when I've planned for it'. It's also OK to wing it but frankly if it was my first time I'd be expecting the players to cooperate rather than shoving sticks into the wheels.
Emerald Spire is rail-roading deluxe, so inform your players before the game that you intend to run the module as-is, and that they should please keep to the story (rails) as intended.

Resileaf
2018-07-09, 08:54 AM
Personally, for a first-time GM, I suggest to not be afraid to railroad a little. If you overextend yourself, you'll just get tired and lost trying to figure out where the players are going and what they'll find there.
Rail-roading doesn't necessarily means force the players to go in one place in particular. It can mean that wherever they go, they'll find the place (or person) you want them to go to.

They need to go to the wizard's tower in the forest but have decided to take a stroll in the mountains instead? Pretend the tower was there all along and that they skipped the decoy in the forest (they'll feel smart thinking they skipped a trap).

TheYell
2018-07-09, 09:09 PM
Thanks for the responses, some good information and advice in there which I will remember.

I am seriously considered backing out of DMing for now. Today we had our first full-group discussion of what I wanted to do, and once I uttered the words "Emerald Spire with mythic tiers" 2 of our group objected that mythic is too complicated. They're playing mythic campaigns elsewhere, so, I get the idea that they don't like mythic.

3 of the 5, our core players, would like to crack the Emerald Spire, but their ideas for a dungeon-cracking party are

a druid
a summoner
a warlock from Tome of Secrets

from what I'm reading that's not a successful group.

Another member of our party wanted to be a samurai, but, he does not want to do more "hack and slash" so a simple straightforward dungeon assault would be exactly what he doesn't want. We discussed adding story feats so I could give each character a broader destiny, but that was when they were going to be mythic heroes.

The fifth member of the party says he might not be there every week.

So right now I'm feeling like we shouldn't interrupt our two extant games with a third week of this module. I think a more experienced DM might have some solutions, like DMPCs to round out the party, or inspiring a sense of mission among the players, or saying "The party is composed of a rogue-type, an arcane caster, a tank and a cleric. Pick one." But I don't feel up to it being so green.

Maybe I should sleep on it. I'm really bummed that my core concept, a divinely-empowered team of do-gooders aimed at the Spire, is out the window in ten seconds.

Knaight
2018-07-09, 09:17 PM
People will tell you it's your responsibility to make sure everyone has fun. They're lying. It's your job to play the world and follow the rules. Fun is a collective responsibility. Don't stress over it. You're not a circus performer there to make sure everyone's entertained.
I'd push back on this a little - part of what you do is performance, and part of that is to try and make everyone have fun.

This just also applies to the rest of the players.


Get through the session. That's all.

You will make some mistakes. That's fine. We all did - and still do.

The primary goal of a first-time DM is to become a second-time DM.
Pretty much this - and your players know you'll make mistakes, and unless they're being real jerks they won't hold them against you.

TheYell
2018-07-09, 09:25 PM
Thanks for the responses, some good information and advice in there which I will remember.

I am seriously considered backing out of DMing for now. Today we had our first full-group discussion of what I wanted to do, and once I uttered the words "Emerald Spire with mythic tiers" 2 of our group objected that mythic is too complicated. They're playing mythic campaigns elsewhere, so, I get the idea that they don't like mythic.

3 of the 5, our core players, would like to crack the Emerald Spire, but their ideas for a dungeon-cracking party are

a druid
a summoner
a warlock from Tome of Secrets

from what I'm reading that's not a successful group.

Another member of our party wanted to be a samurai, but, he does not want to do more "hack and slash" so a simple straightforward dungeon assault would be exactly what he doesn't want. We discussed adding story feats so I could give each character a broader destiny, but that was when they were going to be mythic heroes.

The fifth member of the party says he might not be there every week.

So right now I'm feeling like we shouldn't interrupt our two extant games with a third week of this module. I think a more experienced DM might have some solutions, like DMPCs to round out the party, or inspiring a sense of mission among the players, or saying "The party is composed of a rogue-type, an arcane caster, a tank and a cleric. Pick one." But I don't feel up to it being so green.

Maybe I should sleep on it. I'm really bummed that my core concept, a divinely-empowered team of do-gooders aimed at the Spire, is out the window in ten seconds.

Rerem115
2018-07-09, 09:27 PM
I realize that this probably isn't what you're going for, but you could always change up your parameters, I guess. If your campaign setting doesn't work so well for your group, find a different setting. This also applies to power levels.

Of course, if you're set on running that campaign and nothing else, yeah maybe sitting things out for a bit may be for the best.

TheYell
2018-07-09, 09:34 PM
I realize that this probably isn't what you're going for, but you could always change up your parameters, I guess. If your campaign setting doesn't work so well for your group, find a different setting. This also applies to power levels.

Of course, if you're set on running that campaign and nothing else, yeah maybe sitting things out for a bit may be for the best.

So...you're saying there's a chance?

No you make a point. I should sleep on it and come back at it.

Firest Kathon
2018-07-10, 04:38 AM
Today we had our first full-group discussion of what I wanted to do, and once I uttered the words "Emerald Spire with mythic tiers" 2 of our group objected that mythic is too complicated. They're playing mythic campaigns elsewhere, so, I get the idea that they don't like mythic.
I would not say that mythic is complicated as a player (although I never experienced it in actual play yet). It's an additional resource to track, yes, but only a few new abilities. I would say that it is very hard to balance for the FM

3 of the 5, our core players, would like to crack the Emerald Spire, but their ideas for a dungeon-cracking party are

a druid
a summoner
a warlock from Tome of Secrets

from what I'm reading that's not a successful group.[/QUOTE]

They should do fine. One thing to remember is that it is a pre-made dungeon and they should have some way of dealing with traps (thievery skills, summons, hit points, etc.). The summoner can very well cover this though their eidolon or summons.

A suggestion: enforce Unchained Summoner. The "normal" summoner has a very fast spell progression, the unchained version scales it back to normal.


Another member of our party wanted to be a samurai, but, he does not want to do more "hack and slash" so a simple straightforward dungeon assault would be exactly what he doesn't want. We discussed adding story feats so I could give each character a broader destiny, but that was when they were going to be mythic heroes.
Emerald Spire does have some story to it, and several encounters can be resolved through non-combat approaches.


The fifth member of the party says he might not be there every week.
That can still work. You have do decide as a group how to deal with the absentee, either they are not present or their PC is run by another player.


So right now I'm feeling like we shouldn't interrupt our two extant games with a third week of this module.
You should also cosider that three games in parallel may be "too much" for the players.


[...] DMPCs to round out the party,
Just no. Besides the usual problems of DMPCs, as a new GM you have enough to do with the GM side of things, you should not add the additional budon of playing a PC to it.


saying "The party is composed of a rogue-type, an arcane caster, a tank and a cleric. Pick one."
Not really, it is the player's task to cover their bases. In a custom campaign you can of course tailor the adventures to the party, but you are running a pre-made adventure. Make it clear to the players that you do not intend to change up the adventure, so they should be prepared to deal with its challenges.


Maybe I should sleep on it. I'm really bummed that my core concept, a divinely-empowered team of do-gooders aimed at the Spire, is out the window in ten seconds.
I agree, don't force it. A game must be enjoyed by both players and the GM. You presented the concept you want to run, if the players don't like it its their loss :smallwink:. Maybe you find other players, now or later, who will like your concept.

Quertus
2018-07-10, 09:03 AM
I've only skimmed the responses, but, since I came here to tell you to run a short module, I'll second (third fourth whatever) the idea that your first game as GM should be a practice run, going through a simple, short module.

After the module, get feedback from your players. Evaluate what everyone liked and disliked. Determine how you would like to do things differently.

Repeat as needed.

Then move on to slightly longer modules, maybe mixed in with one-shots of your own devising, or short modules that you've changed. See how people respond, and what new problems crop up when you add in these new variables.

Try to understand and solve as many classes of problems as you can before you undertake such a massive endeavour.

TheYell
2018-07-10, 11:10 AM
Let me propose running a one-shot module with them then.

IF that works out, having a third game, and going into dungeons, then we can proceed.

I'll have them take a story feat as a bonus feat. We won't involve that in the one-shot, but, if we continue, it can help transition them from the one-shot into the superdungeon area.