Next 5e book: Spelljammer Confirmed

[mgshamster]

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/07/dd-spoiler-alert-corebook-covers-jarlaxle-baenrae-and-new-books-coming-soon.html

The next 5e setting will be Spelljammer.

[JoeJ]

Squeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PhoenixPhyre]

Doubling down on the "all worlds are connected" thing, I see.

Won't really be that useful for me, except as a source of weirdness to mine. Although...I could have a spelljammer break through the Crystal Shell and crash land. That might be interesting.

[Ralanr]

So...magical space pirates anyone?

[Thrudd]

It makes a lot of sense from an Adventurers League perspective, especially if the plan is to start introducing even more settings. They won't be running separate Leagues where the characters are legal only in one specified setting; I'm betting they'll want all AL characters from any official setting to be legal in any AL game regardless of the location - because Spelljammers!

[Smitty Wesson]

I'm down for it. Spelljamming adventures would be fun, and there are some good monsters to be had - Autognomes, Clockwork Horrors, Moon Dragons, Bionoids, Dohwar, Giant Space Hamsters, and Space Swine are my shortlist.

[JoeJ]

My biggest complaint about Spelljammer has always been that it's for high-level PCs only. I can create my own stuff, of course, but I would still really love for there to be some examples of interesting things that low level adventurers can do in a Spelljammer setting.

[Kane0]

...good monsters...Clockwork Horrors...

Those really don't belong in the same statement :smallbiggrin:

Really looking forward to this though! My FLGS can expect a preorder from me.

[MaxWilson]

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/07/dd-spoiler-alert-corebook-covers-jarlaxle-baenrae-and-new-books-coming-soon.html

The next 5e setting will be Spelljammer.

Seriously? Wow! I hope they do a good job with it!

[ZorroGames]

Well, ho hum. No experience with that setting but I will wait to see. Honestly, the closest I have come to it are some second hand 15mm Giff miniatures for “Colonial Africa Fantasy” - the Giff are more German than British.

[mgshamster]

My biggest complaint about Spelljammer has always been that it's for high-level PCs only. I can create my own stuff, of course, but I would still really love for there to be some examples of interesting things that low level adventurers can do in a Spelljammer setting.

I've only ever done low level for Spelljammer.

[JoeJ]

I've only ever done low level for Spelljammer.

I ran one homebrew adventure, but unfortunately I was the only one of our group who wanted to do more.

[SaintRidley]

This is great news. I can stall on deciding where to put the crashed Illithid Dreadnaught in my world until this comes out while the players in my new game poke about and start getting a sense of the shape of the world. This book is going to be absolutely necessary.

[ImproperJustice]

This explains the sudden change in tone in our current campaign when we delivered a large magical gem to a Ship Captain who revealed a special throne and helmet in the center of his ship.
We were then told to get prepared for the Tomb of Horrors.....in Space!

[Kane0]

This explains the sudden change in tone in our current campaign when we delivered a large magical gem to a Ship Captain who revealed a special throne and helmet in the center of his ship.
We were then told to get prepared for the Tomb of Horrors.....in Space!

I think you meant '... In spaaaaace!', probably with some sort of Sci-Fi montage playing in the background.

Frankly, I'm just looking for any sort of excuse to merge D&D and Battletech. I have high hopes for MFoV's Dark Matter.

[Millstone85]

After all the teasing in VGtM and MToF, it is good to read this.

[opaopajr]

squeeeeeee!
/clutches stuffed animal and skips around the playground

[Regitnui]

Second best news I could get. If this is true. Not hyped until official announcement.

[jaappleton]

At around what point in the Fireside Chat is the setting mentioned?

[nickl_2000]

Are there any intelligent Pig creatures out there? Because it might be fun to create a Spelljammer one shot with some solid reference to Pigs in Space.

[Beechgnome]

At around what point in the Fireside Chat is the setting mentioned?

I watched it and I don't think it was actually said. They confirmed the announcement would be July 23. This seems to be Bell of Lost Souls having some inside dope.

[Mikal]

Are there any intelligent Pig creatures out there? Because it might be fun to create a Spelljammer one shot with some solid reference to Pigs in Space.

Orcs? I mean, historically they've been consider porcine.

[Klaus Teufel]

Are there any intelligent Pig creatures out there? Because it might be fun to create a Spelljammer one shot with some solid reference to Pigs in Space.
Wereboars?

[Sigreid]

Orcs? I mean, historically they've been consider porcine.

AD&D MM orcs were specifically depicted as humanoids with pig or boar heads.

[KorvinStarmast]

Space Pirates (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087451/). (Well, Ice Pirates in space ...)

[MaxWilson]

I watched it and I don't think it was actually said. They confirmed the announcement would be July 23. This seems to be Bell of Lost Souls having some inside dope.

I'm not fully convinced yet that Spelljammer is the book, or just a section of the book. It's possible it will get only as much attention as the DMG gave to exotic technology: a page or two. The video linked by the OP had no info other than someone answering "yes" to the question "Spelljammer confirmed?" which could mean almost anything. I guess we'll see.

[Smitty Wesson]

Are there any intelligent Pig creatures out there? Because it might be fun to create a Spelljammer one shot with some solid reference to Pigs in Space.

Aside from orcs, the Space Swine (winged boars that serve the dohwar) are it, I think.

[KorvinStarmast]

aka pigs on the wing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGSPUOaHYn4)

[Tetrasodium]

Nifty, anything to get away from the never ending parade of faerun & "totally not faerun default setting". I'm still waiting for the official announcement for settings though.

[ErHo]

YEEESSSSS!!!!

Here come the mindflayer nautilus ships, soo cool!

[samcifer]

I've only played 4e and 5e so could someone give me a brief summary of what Spelljammers is about? Thanks in advance. :)

[Unoriginal]

I've only played 4e and 5e so could someone give me a brief summary of what Spelljammers is about? Thanks in advance. :)

D&D in SPAAAAAAAACE.

Magic spaceships roaming between the worlds, aliens, Hippo-men with guns!

[MaxWilson]

I've only played 4e and 5e so could someone give me a brief summary of what Spelljammers is about? Thanks in advance. :)

Tying all of the campaign settings (except Darksun) in one giant meta-setting that allows travel between them.

Fantasy alternate physics.

Cosmopolitan interactions and trade with weird things that would kill you without a blink in any other setting.

Fleets of beholders and mind flayers and werewolf archmages. Giant planets whose surface is covered entirely in creatures indistinguishable from the Tarrasque.

Cosmic mysteries.

[Daithi]

I'm glad to see some people are psyched for this release, but it's not my jam.

[BBQ Pork]

I'm glad to see some people are psyched for this release, but it's not my jam.
Understandable. Not everything is everybody's jam.
(Coincidentally. I was just given an old (2E) Spelljammer module from a friend who said it's his "jam". )
It's never been my jam before, but I am likely to pick up the book.

My old group is coming fresh into 5E, and after I run ToA, I might take this branch, if it seems compatible with the characters.
A Druid and a Barbarian might feel a bit uncomfortable in the cold dark of space.
We will see.

[Cybren]

I'm not fully convinced yet that Spelljammer is the book, or just a section of the book. It's possible it will get only as much attention as the DMG gave to exotic technology: a page or two. The video linked by the OP had no info other than someone answering "yes" to the question "Spelljammer confirmed?" which could mean almost anything. I guess we'll see.

Yeah, actually watching the twitch link they provided, the only thing that appears to be 'confirmed' is that something they are working on that will possibly be released is spelljammer, not "the next book". Which isn't to say that it's not, but it feels like a big leap to make

[LordEntrails]

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/07/dd-spoiler-alert-corebook-covers-jarlaxle-baenrae-and-new-books-coming-soon.html

The next 5e setting will be Spelljammer.

Spelljammer IS NOT CONFIRMED. That article is nothing but hype and speculation.


At around what point in the Fireside Chat is the setting mentioned?

I watched it and I don't think it was actually said. They confirmed the announcement would be July 23. This seems to be Bell of Lost Souls having some inside dope.

It's not mentioned. Their are various teasers and hints, but at no point is it announced. All that really came out of the chat was that they will have new merchandise at San Diego Comic Con, and that next week they will be announcing more info.

Now, I believe the speculation is correct in that SJ will be "released", but I don't believe it will be a book (and their is no teasers saying it will be a book). It will be released just like they did in CoS, SJ will be "released" in DoMM. I think it will be expanded upon with a PDF in the DMsGuild, but that will be written by an Adept so many people won't consider it official.

[JadedDM]

I've only played 4e and 5e so could someone give me a brief summary of what Spelljammers is about? Thanks in advance. :)

You ever see that Disney movie, Treasure Planet?

Basically that.

[EvilAnagram]

1: It's odd that they're releasing the setting about moving between settings before releasing any setting other than 5e's baseline (Faerun)

2: I'm so ****ing happy they're releasing a new setting!!! I don't even particularly care about Spelljammer, but I'm happy!

[Regitnui]

1: It's odd that they're releasing the setting about moving between settings before releasing any setting other than 5e's baseline (Faerun)

Gotta carry the AL players along with the books. So they'll introduce (Journey) setting before (Destination) setting.

Journey setting is (allegedly) Spelljammer. I'd prefer Destination to be Eberron (natural expansion of FR, adding races, introducing psionics as optional, and magic item frenzy).

[JakOfAllTirades]

I'm glad to see some people are psyched for this release, but it's not my jam.

Mine neither. I was hoping for Eberron, or Planescape.

OTOH, I love me some Githyanki, and I'll totally play a Githyanki Spelljamming Pirate and go on a killing rampage every time I see something that just looks silly to me.

Which will be often. Effing space hippos....

[EvilAnagram]

Gotta carry the AL players along with the books. So they'll introduce (Journey) setting before (Destination) setting.

Journey setting is (allegedly) Spelljammer. I'd prefer Destination to be Eberron (natural expansion of FR, adding races, introducing psionics as optional, and magic item frenzy).
Excellent point.

[Kadesh]

Spelljammer sounds like what somebody wishes the 80's were like, so doubled down on LSD and wrote it as if they were there.

The giff are ridiculously out of place in Tome of Foes. Even among monsters I'd never use in DnD for being too ridiculous, they are something special.

[Unoriginal]

any setting other than 5e's baseline (Faerun)


Faerun is not 5e baseline. Faerun was never 5e baseline. Faerun will never be 5e baseline.

Being the setting of most of AL does not make it a baseline.

The baseline setting of 5e is markedly different from Forgotten Realms.


Spelljammer sounds like what somebody wishes the 80's were like, so doubled down on LSD and wrote it as if they were there.

The giff are ridiculously out of place in Tome of Foes. Even among monsters I'd never use in DnD for being too ridiculous, they are something special.

If you don't want silly things, you should play other games than D&D.

Giffs aren't more out of place than Yuan-ti with snake for arms, or fox-people-fiend, or a Lich who creates ridiculously complex death traps just for trolling people to death.

[Naanomi]

Tying all of the campaign settings (except Darksun) in one giant meta-setting that allows travel between them.
Athas was part of Spelljammer (though they waffled with the idea initially); just not in the Radiant Triangle and off the Greater Arcane flow so... hard to get to. Degenerate descendents of Gith and their crashed Spelljammer ship is part of an adventure path on Athas.

Eberron is the setting most classically divorced from the Spelljammer/Planescape Cosmology; though Mystara kind of wafffled back and forth as being its own separate Cosmology as well

[thepsyker]

Spelljammer sounds like what somebody wishes the 80's were like, so doubled down on LSD and wrote it as if they were there.


Seeing as how the Spelljammer campaign setting came out in '89 I'd say chances are pretty good, barring some odd temporal anomaly, they were there...

[EvilAnagram]

The baseline setting of 5e is markedly different from Forgotten Realms.
Go on. Might as well bring out the whole spiel if you're just going to repeat yourself every thread.

[Unoriginal]

Go on. Might as well bring out the whole spiel if you're just going to repeat yourself every thread.


You do realize it means you knowingly repeat yourself every thread too, right?

[Cybren]

I'm with Unoriginal in that whatever base settting is depicted in the PHB/Monster Manual isn't FR. It's generic enough that you can slot it into FR, but it isn't FR.

[KorvinStarmast]

Seeing as how the Spelljammer campaign setting came out in '89 I'd say chances are pretty good, barring some odd temporal anomaly, they were there... ... or had lived in it and had perhaps had a sugar cube or two before that ...

[Kadesh]

If you don't want silly things, you should play other games than D&D.

Giffs aren't more out of place than Yuan-ti with snake for arms, or fox-people-fiend, or a Lich who creates ridiculously complex death traps just for trolling people to death.

Because I feel that Rourkes Drift Space Hippos wielding Blunderbusses are Ridiculous, I should leave DnD?

I'm sorry, but have you heard yourself?


Seeing as how the Spelljammer campaign setting came out in '89 I'd say chances are pretty good, barring some odd temporal anomaly, they were there...

That's the point I'm making, though. Despite being made in the late 80's, it feels nothing more than some form of apocryphal romantisation of the 80's was like according to their mind. Some Walter Mitty clinging too hard at a time that they missed, and drop some knock off tablets in some east german lap dancing club in a bid to get close to euphoria of it all.

And completely swinging and missing. It is the ramblings of the SAS guy who doesn't know the colour of the boathouse at 'Hearford'.

It comes across as try hard, almost abstract trolling, and then having people unironically love it for its own nature as a setting bringing it full circle.

Dnd doesn't have to be full on serious all the time, but there is no way in i think 'ah, yes. I need some 2 ton anthropomorphic african fauna equipped with a stage coach rifle, boer war/von clausewitz era uniforms and a space ship' ever have desire to be in my games.

Aztec Half Men half Snakes who sacrifice those they capite in a vile corruption/parody of civilisation? Jedi Dwarves who punish those who violate their code by entombing them within automata? Living Crows who can only communicate verbally through mimicking the speech of others? Yes. At least it makes more sense than Drow, but dialling back the entirety of the backstabbingness makes Drow tenable. There isn"t much that you can rescue from Giff without completely annihilating their concept in game. It's jarring, and suspension of disbelief ending.

It's just flat out wierd without adding anything that you can consider particularly 'fun', unless the goal is to be weird. Being wierd for the sake of being wierd isn't something that has a purpose.

Just post the stats and go. I'll refluff or use aspects of it elsewhere. Those Giff weapons? Now a part of the Dwarf Military, newly developed weapons which the party must soirce a new secure trade/smuggling route by an experimental band of guild engineers. Excellent plot hooks right there, now with weapons to give us an idea.

Anthro Hippos? Not so much. Pith Helmets? Even less.

[Unoriginal]

Because I feel that Rourkes Drift Space Hippos wielding Blunderbusses are Ridiculous, I should leave DnD?

I'm sorry, but have you heard yourself?

I said that if you didn't want ridiculous things, you shouldn't play D&D.

D&D is filled with the silly. It's one of the core elements of the game, along with the epic, the awesome and the horrifying.



Just post the stats and go. I'll refluff or use aspects of it elsewhere. Those Giff weapons? Now a part of the Dwarf Military, newly developed weapons which the party must soirce a new secure trade/smuggling route by an experimental band of guild engineers. Excellent plot hooks right there, now with weapons to give us an idea.


The stats for guns have been out for years, if it's that you want.

[MaxWilson]

Dnd doesn't have to be full on serious all the time, but there is no way in i think 'ah, yes. I need some 2 ton anthropomorphic african fauna equipped with a stage coach rifle, boer war/von clausewitz era uniforms and a space ship' ever have desire to be in my games... There isn"t much that you can rescue from Giff without completely annihilating their concept in game. It's jarring, and suspension of disbelief ending.

This is an interesting claim. You can't think of a single way to make Giff make sense? I should think the 5E rules practically do it for you. All it takes is for a society of melee bruisers, akin to ogres, to realize that the (5E) universe's tactical rules make ranged weapons generally superior to melee weapons, in their ability to concentrate firepower and kill flying opponents, among other advantages. Sure, they may average Str 16-19 on an individual basis, but that advantage is irrelevant against enemies who don't come to grips with you. The Giff may view their racial Str +4 bonus (or whatever it is) as vestigial and almost an inconvenience given what it undoubtedly does to their logistical footprint, but that doesn't mean that they have to lay down and die--unlike players making player characters, the Giff as a race don't have the option of all suddenly just becoming elves. So instead they train as hard as they can to meet the "new" realities, giving them the firearms specialization you see in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, and making them better than you'd expect a race of humanoid hippos to be at ranged combat and modern infantry tactics. And at least they have plenty of mass (HP) to soak up damage. Giff, like Gurkhas, may not be cheap, but they are dedicated, professional, and tough. No normal army wants to take on a Giff formation at anything even close to numerical parity; you probably want 4:1 numerical superiority at the very least.

What part of their concept have I just "completely annihilated" by taking them seriously here?

[Unoriginal]

Also Giffs are rather still rather good with a sword, too. It's not like they're neglecting melee combat.

Or is it the tech that's a problem? Gnomes are able to build automatons, and traveling between the Crystal Sphere, while not common, isn't unique by any stretch.

[Finback]

Fantasy alternate physics.



I was always quite fond of their use of phlogiston. It feels right to use antiquated concepts of physics, in an anachronistic environment.

[Kadesh]

This is an interesting claim. You can't think of a single way to make Giff make sense? I should think the 5E rules practically do it for you. All it takes is for a society of melee bruisers, akin to ogres, to realize that the (5E) universe's tactical rules make ranged weapons generally superior to melee weapons, in their ability to concentrate firepower and kill flying opponents, among other advantages. Sure, they may average Str 16-19 on an individual basis, but that advantage is irrelevant against enemies who don't come to grips with you. The Giff may view their racial Str +4 bonus (or whatever it is) as vestigial and almost an inconvenience given what it undoubtedly does to their logistical footprint, but that doesn't mean that they have to lay down and die--unlike players making player characters, the Giff as a race don't have the option of all suddenly just becoming elves. So instead they train as hard as they can to meet the "new" realities, giving them the firearms specialization you see in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, and making them better than you'd expect a race of humanoid hippos to be at ranged combat and modern infantry tactics. And at least they have plenty of mass (HP) to soak up damage. Giff, like Gurkhas, may not be cheap, but they are dedicated, professional, and tough. No normal army wants to take on a Giff formation at anything even close to numerical parity; you probably want 4:1 numerical superiority at the very least.

What part of their concept have I just "completely annihilated" by taking them seriously here?

You forgot to include the part the makes me want to run them. You know, if it wasn't space hippos, having some Duergar psi-tech guns to slave Ogres and rush them into battle, that would make more sense to me. Space Hippos wielding guns wearing far fantasy dress uniform clothing to go into battle? Keep trying, MaxWilson.

[mgshamster]

I don't know... The way Max explains the Giff makes me really want to play them.

I don't really know much about them, but that just sounds freaking awesome.

[Kadesh]

I said that if you didn't want ridiculous things, you shouldn't play D&D.

D&D is filled with the silly. It's one of the core elements of the game, along with the epic, the awesome and the horrifying.

You'll be okay with me running Turdbreaker Poosniffer, the Half Poo Elemental Genasi Barbarian, who communicates by farts? Because its silly right? Thats all it needs to be. Silly. Because 'Silly' is good enough to require its inclusion, and because you don't include all 'Silly', you must automatically stop playing D&D?

It's equally puerile, and a setting that makes use of them is no less puerile, and no more means ngeresting for me to want to run them. It's a bad, try hard acid trip, that one guy having tried a single edible making out 'he's so stoned' to fit in, not realising that because we were college students and couldn't actually afford any until out next pay check, they were literally just chocolate brownies.

But sure, Unoriginal. If it helps you get to sleep at night, tell someone to give up their hobbies because they don't find a particular monster sensible.

Forum rules prevemt me from appropriately voicing my thought on that.


The stats for guns have been out for years, if it's that you want.
I think you're either being slow, or intentionally missing the point. Whichever, I hope you're enjoying this discussion more than I am.

Enjoy your 'silliness', while I continue to try and ignore Metal Slug: Hippo's entire existence.

[Nifft]

Spelljammer seems silly in the same way that Shadowrun does.

Since I really liked playing Shadowrun, I'll look forward to Spelljammer.

Planescape would have been my preference, but I'll take anything that's less FR-oriented, since the more settings that are supported, the easier it is to set expectations for my homebrew settings (which are not like FR and probably not like Spelljammer, but I don't know Spelljammer yet so yeah...).

[MaxWilson]

You forgot to include the part the makes me want to run them. You know, if it wasn't space hippos, having some Duergar psi-tech guns to slave Ogres and rush them into battle, that would make more sense to me. Space Hippos wielding guns wearing far fantasy dress uniform clothing to go into battle? Keep trying, MaxWilson.

Tastes vary I guess. To me the Duergar psi-tech variant sounds way more cliched.


I don't know... The way Max explains the Giff makes me really want to play them.

I don't really know much about them, but that just sounds freaking awesome.

It makes me want to play them too, whether TTRPG-style (I want a ridiculously tough-minded Giff company commander who talks like the rock-dude, Korg, from Thor: Ragnarok) or even wargaming-style (e.g. spend a couple of hours running a company of giff through a few skirmishes of the Blood War and see what happens).

The one thing I would do is increase the range on their rifles. 40'/120' is ridiculously low for rifled barrels. If Giff really are motivated by a realization of the tactical superiority of ranged weaponry they will definitely invest in long-range firearms, especially in a Spelljammer setting which frequently features extreme-range ship-to-ship combat.

Mechanically, they have three interesting features: (1) they are Medium despite their height, strength, and apparent weight, so they can pack themselves into dense formations; (2) in melee, they can knock enemies prone with no action cost, given space to charge, and then grapple them there with their action (and then beat on them with swords at advantage); (3) 1/day fragmentation grenades which by strict RAW ignore most damage resistance since the fragmentation grenades have no attack rolls and are therefore not "nonmagical attacks". (I dunno if I'd actually follow that technicality in practice though.) Tactically, the combination of fragmentation grenades to deal with hordes and ranged weapons to deal with single creatures is quite interesting.

This is why I want to try running 40-100 Giff through some Blood War skirmishes against a bunch (say 10 or 12) encounters with various groups of Tanar'ri, e.g. 80 Manes and Dretches led by a Marilith, then maybe a couple of Barlguras, then five Vrocks, then another 50 Manes and a Nalfeshnee riding a Goristro, then a pack of six Shoosuvas led by a Balor, then a formation of thirty Shadow Demons, six Chasmes, and a Marilith... (I see Tanar'ri as too chaotic to attack in coordinated groups, so dribs and drabs is pretty natural for them, and the Giff ought to excel at fighting that kind of battle).

Note also that Giff are surprisingly dextrous for such huge creatures (Dex 14!). They're not quite ninja-hippos but they are definitely very capable professional soldiers who will be perfectly comfortable scaling walls and sneaking through the brush, which is yet another reason they remind me of Gurkhas.

[Regitnui]

It's equally puerile, and a setting that makes use of them is no less puerile, and no more means ngeresting for me to want to run them.

While I disagree with you on the giff (they're sensible compared to miniature giant space hamsters), I do understand finding a creature too stupid to use. I personally think the xvart are useless, pointless, and only make sense in (allegedly not but totally is) FR-default setting. I mean come on; little, blue, hairy, minion-like duplicates of a being that stole godhood? Who then worship that same "god" and feel honoured when he steals their offerings?

It kinda exemplifies everything about FR that I find nonsensical, from "gods" being petty, overpowered, afterlife-insurance scam artists (even the good ones) to races worshipping their creator god monolithically (unless you're human, who are special).

[Thrudd]

You forgot to include the part the makes me want to run them. You know, if it wasn't space hippos, having some Duergar psi-tech guns to slave Ogres and rush them into battle, that would make more sense to me. Space Hippos wielding guns wearing far fantasy dress uniform clothing to go into battle? Keep trying, MaxWilson.

I mean, imagine them a bit less hippo-like and with different uniforms. Are they still so terrible? It's a big-guy sci-fi/alien race with a disciplined military tradition. If anything, it's more boring than ridiculous or suspension-of-disbelief ending. Certainly not any sillier than every single other anthropomorphized animal race/alien in almost every fantasy and sci-fi setting. This seems like an arbitrary place to draw the line.

[Tanarii]

Squeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!


squeeeeeee!
/clutches stuffed animal and skips around the playground
Gonna have to chime in with another squeeeeeeeee!! :smallamused:

[Nifft]

If I defeat a Griff, can I take the feat Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu?

[Finback]

I think the thing about the Grif, flumphs, duckbunnies, etc. is that yes, they are silly and almost random. So is real life. The more you learn about biology, the less it makes sense - it's one of the underlying concepts against "design" - because it's stuff that has little sense. Platypus - a pouched mammal, with an electrosensitive beak like a duck, that can't use its eyes underwater, has a poisonous spur. The Sydney funnelweb - the most toxic venom of any spider against primates - which evolved on a continent without primates. Therizinosaurs - we'll take a basic predator prototype, give it planteater teeth, regress its feet to using all four toes, give it a pot belly, but then we'll give it the longest handclaws of any land animal.

Nature is full of weird outliers, things that seem silly and don't make much sense. Why wouldn't a fantasy world have these? It would be even worse if magic can be involved without regard to physics, etc. So for me, the idea of regimented hippofolk that wield pistols and act officious is easy to accept when I have to acknowledge that we live on a planet where whales are hoofed animals that decided screaming underwater was a more viable pathway to success, that there are plants that will make you burn in sunlight, and an octopus' brain is a torus wrapped around its stomach.

[McSkrag]

So many cool new possibilities. I'm very interested to see how they do the world building, RP, mechanics.

[Luccan]

Finally, we can go to the last place not corrupted by humanoids: SPACE!

In all seriousness though, I'm down for this. Wonder what's gonna show up in the book.

[Unoriginal]

You'll be okay with me running Turdbreaker Poosniffer, the Half Poo Elemental Genasi Barbarian, who communicates by farts? Because its silly right? Thats all it needs to be. Silly. Because 'Silly' is good enough to require its inclusion, and because you don't include all 'Silly', you must automatically stop playing D&D?

It's equally puerile, and a setting that makes use of them is no less puerile, and no more means ngeresting for me to want to run them. It's a bad, try hard acid trip, that one guy having tried a single edible making out 'he's so stoned' to fit in, not realising that because we were college students and couldn't actually afford any until out next pay check, they were literally just chocolate brownies.

But sure, Unoriginal. If it helps you get to sleep at night, tell someone to give up their hobbies because they don't find a particular monster sensible.

Forum rules prevemt me from appropriately voicing my thought on that.


I think you're either being slow, or intentionally missing the point. Whichever, I hope you're enjoying this discussion more than I am.

Enjoy your 'silliness', while I continue to try and ignore Metal Slug: Hippo's entire existence.

You do realize I am not telling you "leave D&D and never come back because you're having badwrongfun!", right?

I'm saying "if you don't like silly stuff, maybe you'd be happier with a game without psychic jellyfish, squid-faced time-travelers, demon winged gorilla-boars, telepathic garbage eaters, people being tricked into becoming cow monsters, mad fish people worshipping a part-lobster part-woman being, cultists with snake heads instead of hands, giant snails that beat you to death with their eye stalks, or a spell to make enemies laugh a small cream pie as material component.

If you're able to accept all that but hippos with guns are worse from your POV, then sure, playing D&D can still be enjoyable. If you cannot accept all those ridiculous other things, playing D&D is more like a chore than a hobby, and you'd be better off with a more serious RPG, as there is quite a few of them out here.

As for your "poo Genasi", while D&D thankfulky stays away from feces humor in general (because something can be silly AND gross, and they don't want too gross), they did include a creature who can only communicate by emiting various smells. Then gave this creature an Holy Avenger.


While I disagree with you on the giff (they're sensible compared to miniature giant space hamsters), I do understand finding a creature too stupid to use. I personally think the xvart are useless, pointless, and only make sense in (allegedly not but totally is) FR-default setting. I mean come on; little, blue, hairy, minion-like duplicates of a being that stole godhood? Who then worship that same "god" and feel honoured when he steals their offerings?

It kinda exemplifies everything about FR that I find nonsensical, from "gods" being petty, overpowered, afterlife-insurance scam artists (even the good ones) to races worshipping their creator god monolithically (unless you're human, who are special).

Ah, yes, because something like how gods work that date back from Castle Greyhawk is obviously Forgotten Realms.

Because that makes sense. Totally

[EvilAnagram]

Spelljammer is a silly setting. It is joyously, self-consciously silly, and there's very little depth behind the array of colors. You know, like Marshmallow Fruit Loops. It's perfectly fine not to like the setting, and I can understand why someone wouldn't, but the solution to not liking it is to not play a Spelljammer game.

Don't dump on others for liking Marshmallow Fruit Loops.


You do realize it means you knowingly repeat yourself every thread too, right?
No, it doesn't. You jump down a lot of throats because a lot of people express the view that releasing only material for FR or that ties into FR for four years makes FR the default setting.

[mgshamster]

While I disagree with you on the giff (they're sensible compared to miniature giant space hamsters)

Hey now. What are you trying to say about me?

[Kadesh]

Even among monsters I'd never use in DnD for being too ridiculous, they are something special.

I know what I'm about, son.

[EvilAnagram]

I know what I'm about, son.
Don't use them then. They're silly monsters from a silly setting that's clearly not your taste, so keep away from them. Other people like silly creatures and silly settings.

[Regitnui]

Ah, yes, because something like how gods work that date back from Castle Greyhawk is obviously Forgotten Realms.

Because that makes sense. Totally

Do Greyhawk gods make sure anyone who doesn't care to worship them gets an eternal afterlife as a sentient brick in unending pain? Because then I object to them too. It's not faith. It's an afterlife insurance scam.


Hey now. What are you trying to say about me?

That you're wonderfully, gloriously silly and paradoxical as a concept,.and that's why people like you and you get a starring role in FR books with Minsc (or wherever he comes from).

[mgshamster]

That you're wonderfully, gloriously silly and paradoxical as a concept,.and that's why people like you and you get a starring role in FR books with Minsc (or wherever he comes from).

:smallsmile:

[EvilAnagram]

Hey now. What are you trying to say about me?

You know, I only just got that. I've always been thinking Metal Gear Solid Hamster in my head.

Which is a game I want to play.

[Unoriginal]

Do Greyhawk gods make sure anyone who doesn't care to worship them gets an eternal afterlife as a sentient brick in unending pain? Because then I object to them too. It's not faith. It's an afterlife insurance scam.

Actually, if it was the case it'd be extortion. Insurance scam would be if they pretended saving you in exchange for worship when they don't.

Note that not even the FR gods send you to be a brick in the wall if you're not a worshiper. They changed that with 5e, as it's a) not something most gods have any control over b) only those who truly ****ed up end up in the wall (others get an afterlife serving as psychopomps, for example).

But no, the Greyhawk gods don't do that, except in the sense that if you're an evil person and don't have a dedicated god, the fiends of the place you're sent to are generally going to harvest you as ressource. Because, you know, they're evil, stronger than your soul, and you don't have anyone to protect you from that.

[Tanarii]

Do Greyhawk gods make sure anyone who doesn't care to worship them gets an eternal afterlife as a sentient brick in unending pain? Because then I object to them too. It's not faith. It's an afterlife insurance scam.
His point was that Xvarts and Razivort are Greyhawk, not Forgotten Realms.

Greyhawk being sillier than Spelljammer and Forgotten Realms combined. :smallamused:

[Regitnui]

Actually, if it was the case it'd be extortion. Insurance scam would be if they pretended saving you in exchange for worship when they don't.

Ah. I wasn't aware they changed it in 5e to make moral sense. And thanks for the correction of the legal charges I'll bring against the FR pantheons for misusing their power over mortals.

Since Greyhawk gods use the usual "evil gets what they deserve" afterlives, it makes sense to me "morally".


His point was that Xvarts and Razivort are Greyhawk, not Forgotten Realms.

Greyhawk being sillier than Spelljammer and Forgotten Realms combined. :smallamused:

This is the trouble with using the same beings for two different settings /sarcasm.

In all seriousness, full apology to whoever needs it. I still think the xvarts are really useless and ridiculous, but I've been corrected.

[Unoriginal]

His point was that Xvarts and Razivort are Greyhawk, not Forgotten Realms.

Greyhawk being sillier than Spelljammer and Forgotten Realms combined. :smallamused:

Actually my point was that Xvarts and Razivort have nothing to do with FR, and that petty gods ****ing up mortals was a thing since the very beginning of the game.

It's fine to not like Xvarts, pretending that it's a FR issue isn't.

I hope Razivort shows up in a module, though, it should be fun.



This is the trouble with using the same beings for two different settings /sarcasm.


Well, 5e writers deciding to unite all settings into one material plane is going to help with that.

And I'm sure there will be no contention about that /sarcasm.

[Sigreid]

Actually my point was that Xvarts and Razivort have nothing to do with FR, and that petty gods ****ing up mortals was a thing since the very beginning of the game.

It's fine to not like Xvarts, pretending that it's a FR issue isn't.

I hope Razivort shows up in a module, though, it should be fun.



Well, 5e writers deciding to unite all settings into one material plane is going to help with that.

And I'm sure there will be no contention about that /sarcasm.

Actually, pretty gods screwing over mortals has been a thing since at least ancient Greece.

[mgshamster]

You know, I only just got that. I've always been thinking Metal Gear Solid Hamster in my head.

Which is a game I want to play.

I'm perfectly fine with that interpretation, as well. I'm happy to be thought of as a badass hamster, as well. :)

I started using the name back in the 90s during the days of mIRC. Appropriate to this discussion, I got the name from reading an old Spelljammer book.

[War_lord]

On the subject of "silly monsters don't belong in fantasy". The Catoblepas is a large, hideously ugly buffalo/hog hybrid with a silly sounding name, a head that's so large it permanently has to look downwards, a reeking breath and a gaze that can turn people to stone. It's also a thing the Greeks thought existed.

[MaxWilson]

Do Greyhawk gods make sure anyone who doesn't care to worship them gets an eternal afterlife as a sentient brick in unending pain? Because then I object to them too. It's not faith. It's an afterlife insurance scam.

One fun thing to do with D&D religions could be make all the afterlives apparently true from an in-character perspective. If Big Bad Bane the God of Evil teaches that all who fail to submit to Bane are cursed to eternal torment as a brick in the wall of pain, then when Virgil Samms the Pure dies, if you go look in Bane's domain you'll see a screaming brick named "Virgil". You may also see a happy and content Virgil in the domain of some other Power who believes in rewarding good. There's no way to know which one, if any, is the real Virgil.

I haven't ever done this precisely because I don't like anthropomorphic gods in my D&D (ultrapowerful meddlesome NPCs with clearcut motivations are bad for player agency and dramatic stakes both IMO, especially when they are allied with the PCs) but I have done something similar with devils and soul-contracts. A Baatezu may offer you power in exchange for your soul, and if you have a way to test (Zone of Truth) you will find that he certainly believes he's enlisting you as an extra in the Blood War upon your death, but no one really knows for sure. Sometimes even the demons' and devils' own beliefs about themselves turn out to be true: just because a demon believes that it will reincarnate back in the Abyss upon its death and therefore acts suicidally brave doesn't make it so. (The demon may have been created with false memories of having lived and died before.) There's a deeper question there of just what exactly Baatezu and Tanar'ri really are and how they got where they are, if they are the original inhabitant of Baator and the Abyss at all, and just what the Blood War was originally about...

If you like this kind of ambiguity and these kinds of cosmic mysteries you are more likely than not to enjoy Spelljammer.

[Willie the Duck]

On the subject of "silly monsters don't belong in fantasy". The Catoblepas is a large, hideously ugly buffalo/hog hybrid with a silly sounding name, a head that's so large it permanently has to look downwards, a reeking breath and a gaze that can turn people to stone. It's also a thing the Greeks thought existed.

This just made me think of something -- of all the truly, truly silly mythical things that have popped up across D&D, where are the Akephaloi/Blemmyes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headless_men) , the Panotti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panotti), the Skiapodes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopod_(creature)), and all the other bizarre creatures and peoples that ran around with basilisks, manticores, and chimeras in folklore? For all the silliness that D&D made for itself, it skipped out on some of the silliest bits of real world made up stuff.

[Cybren]

One fun thing to do with D&D religions could be make all the afterlives apparently true from an in-character perspective. If Big Bad Bane the God of Evil teaches that all who fail to submit to Bane are cursed to eternal torment as a brick in the wall of pain, then when Virgil Samms the Pure dies, if you go look in Bane's domain you'll see a screaming brick named "Virgil". You may also see a happy and content Virgil in the domain of some other Power who believes in rewarding good. There's no way to know which one, if any, is the real Virgil.

Something I was trying to set up in a campaign is that the afterlife, along with all the "supernatural" phenomena like gods, demons, etc, were created by mortals over multiple eons. My ultimate goal was to create "answers" to questions that address the surface level questions of "why are we where?" or "where did ___ come from" but not actually get at the spirit behind the question. Adding on the possibility that you could go to multiple afterlives simultaneously would be an interesting way to mess with people

[Naanomi]

For what it is worth, the Wall of the Faithless isn’t ‘eternal’... it is more like oblivion, one of the defining features of the Wall is that it erases individuality and consciousness fairly quickly. Most of the lower-planes afterlives are worse in the long term compared to the Wall

[Unoriginal]

Actually, pretty gods screwing over mortals has been a thing since at least ancient Greece.

Oh, since far before. The story of Gilgamesh, for example.

My point was that it was a thing D&D since the beginning of D&D

[Regitnui]

For what it is worth, the Wall of the Faithless isn’t ‘eternal’... it is more like oblivion, one of the defining features of the Wall is that it erases individuality and consciousness fairly quickly. Most of the lower-planes afterlives are worse in the long term compared to the Wall

I did not know that either. I guess I assumed it being a punishment and all that it was eternal.

[Nifft]

I did not know that either. I guess I assumed it being a punishment and all that it was eternal.

It is eternal, it's just that your conscious mind gets to double-die after a while.

Your soul is forever just another brick in the wall.

[Sigreid]

Oh, since far before. The story of Gilgamesh, for example.

My point was that it was a thing D&D since the beginning of D&D

Oh. Of course. They stole liberally from mythology, and fantasy which steals liberally from mythology. Really, if you want to know how to speak to our inner human, emulate myths.

[MaxWilson]

It is eternal, it's just that your conscious mind gets to double-die after a while.

Your soul is forever just another brick in the wall.

What does "soul" mean in this context and why would I have more empathy or concern for a brick in the wall than I do for a stone in the road? It's not me, it's not conscious, so who cares?

[Nifft]

What does "soul" mean in this context and why would I have more empathy or concern for a brick in the wall than I do for a stone in the road? It's not me, it's not conscious, so who cares?

You as a player are supposed to care.

If you don't care, they can't strong-arm your PC into participating in the divine protection racket.

[MaxWilson]

You as a player are supposed to care.

If you don't care, they can't strong-arm your PC into participating in the divine protection racket.

Doesn't sound like the kind of racket I'd go along with, in-character or out of it. If that frustrates the DM, too bad for him.

[Cybren]

Doesn't sound like the kind of racket I'd go along with. If that frustrates the DM, too bad for him.
One of my problems with the wall of the faithless was I was never clear how aware of it the general public is. Like, for it to work as a threat, everyone has to know about it, and that feels a little too... much.

[Regitnui]

Doesn't sound like the kind of racket I'd go along with. If that frustrates the DM, too bad for him.

Partially my problem with the whole deal is that it doesn't seem to have many consequences from a Watsonian perspective either. Why haven't the majority of FR citizens become angry atheists with the gods causing so much trouble all the time? "Yes, I believe you exist, I just refuse to pray to you because you're a bleep!"

[Naanomi]

It is eternal, it's just that your conscious mind gets to double-die after a while.

Your soul is forever just another brick in the wall.
Yeah, but a ‘soul’ is sort of just energy... stripped of consciousness and memory it doesn’t have much tie to the person who once bore it. One of the purposes of the Wall was to find a place to stick the ‘soul stuff’ when they couldn’t find a place for it. It is still a bit off-putting given other worlds manage to not have something like this, but AO’s interference as a very active Overpower makes things a bit weird for the Gods compared to other Prime worlds

Note that in one of the video games (NWN2) you can assault the thing and destroy part of it. It is considered a highly Chaotic act but not an Evil one

[MaxWilson]

Partially my problem with the whole deal is that it doesn't seem to have many consequences from a Watsonian perspective either. Why haven't the majority of FR citizens become angry atheists with the gods causing so much trouble all the time? "Yes, I believe you exist, I just refuse to pray to you because you're a bleep!"

Sorry, to be clear, I was speaking from a primarily Watsonian perspective in the first place. It wasn't "I don't care because I'm not that PC," it's "I the PC don't care because that stone isn't me in any meaningful sense, nor is it an intelligent entity."

So yeah, I agree.

[Naanomi]

The underlying idea (which I don’t agree with) is that non-existence is worse than eternal tortured existence... the entire ‘threat’ of the Wall was the existential threat of Oblivion, not one of eternal torture (which is the Lower Planes’ schtick)

As for the question ‘do people know about it’... the implication in the novels was that people knew that people who died with no God (or whose God rejected them) were in for a bad time, with the priests of Myrkul knowing a bit more since the whole thing was sort of his project... but largely didn’t know the specifics... until Kelemvor tries to stop using the Wall and his (new) priesthood started teaching about it; including informing people about it once he started using it again

[Unoriginal]

Note that in 5e, all lawful evil ****ers who didn't secure their place in afterlife get dumped in the Styx for complete oblivion.

All what's left of them is their signature "sin"/"main bad things they did in life", which affect the devil they're being recycled into a bit.

[MaxWilson]

The underlying idea (which I don’t agree with) is that non-existence is worse than eternal tortured existence... the entire ‘threat’ of the Wall was the existential threat of Oblivion, not one of eternal torture (which is the Lower Planes’ schtick)

That notion is unpersuasive garbage though. To whatever existent existence has spatio-temporal coordinates, I already don't "exist" in all kinds of spatio-temporal locations. That is, I have no interface with, no perception or influence over things that are happening right now in Russia or on Mars or yesterday in Seattle or tomorrow at the Grand Canyon. I do have a presence ("existence") in Seattle last month and next year at the Grand Canyon. That never goes away. Who cares if it turns out that all of my interactions are temporally-bounded as well, especially in a universe where the alternative is apparently to accept spatial boundaries instead (hang out in the Seven Heavens forever doing apparently nothing in particular)?

Yeah, eternal torment is clearly bad and I'd rather avoid that, but given the choice between nonexistence and eternal ennui... I might as well take nonexistence. It's quicker at least.

More to the point, I'm not going to let the Powers That Be or the DM blackmail me into doing anything I don't choose to. I may choose to do the right thing, but it will be for my own reasons, because I believe in it, and not as a bribe to some external Power to please let me into its version of paradise. Feh. And if we disagree on what the right thing is, that Power can just go hang.


</in-and-out-of-character rant>

[Fire Tarrasque]

I have no idea what direction this thread went in, and I don't care. This is my response to the original post.

[url=https://imgflip.com/i/2dqu68][img]https://i.imgflip.com/2dqu68.jpg

[Waterdeep Merch]

That notion is unpersuasive garbage though. To whatever existent existence has spatio-temporal coordinates, I already don't "exist" in all kinds of spatio-temporal locations. That is, I have no interface with, no perception or influence over things that are happening right now in Russia or on Mars or yesterday in Seattle or tomorrow at the Grand Canyon. I do have a presence ("existence") in Seattle last month and next year at the Grand Canyon. That never goes away. Who cares if it turns out that all of my interactions are temporally-bounded as well, especially in a universe where the alternative is apparently to accept spatial boundaries instead (hang out in the Seven Heavens forever doing apparently nothing in particular)?

Yeah, eternal torment is clearly bad and I'd rather avoid that, but given the choice between nonexistence and eternal ennui... I might as well take nonexistence. It's quicker at least.

More to the point, I'm not going to let the Powers That Be or the DM blackmail me into doing anything I don't choose to. I may choose to do the right thing, but it will be for my own reasons, because I believe in it, and not as a bribe to some external Power to please let me into its version of paradise. Feh. And if we disagree on what the right thing is, that Power can just go hang.


</in-and-out-of-character rant>
Sure, that won't scare someone with your precise philosophical outlook, but it scares the absolute crap out of most people. The entire concept of not existing is completely beyond the scope of an existing person's comprehension, because it's a state that we have no ability to witness.

That makes it the unknown, and the unknown is inherently terrifying to the human mind. We want to quantify and categorize things by nature, it's how we work. And any time we're denied this, it bothers us. Consider your own philosophy- if you had not been able to quantify and categorize nonexistence in such a manner, would you still be unafraid? Because most people that don't come to this conclusion and don't have an adamant belief in an afterlife are scared of it.

Not to say you can't roleplay someone with a philosophical outlook on a state of nonexistence (or that you're wrong, because I don't think you are), but saying it's unpersuasive is ignoring the masses to whom it is, in fact, very persuasive.

[Willie the Duck]

More to the point, I'm not going to let the Powers That Be or the DM blackmail me into doing anything I don't choose to. I may choose to do the right thing, but it will be for my own reasons, because I believe in it, and not as a bribe to some external Power to please let me into its version of paradise. Feh. And if we disagree on what the right thing is, that Power can just go hang.


</in-and-out-of-character rant>

It is just a game, and frankly the last thing I trust a game designer to do is answer big damn questions like the nature or existence of the soul or anything like that (after all, look how well they've done with good and evil :smallbiggrin:). That said, within the context that the writers have made a little fictional game world(s) with some theoretical individuals in it, I think the question of what happens in the afterlife is important to the characters within that fiction. And what is depicted is rather depressing, treats even the good gawds (refusing to call them gods) as at best that guy in high school that wanted you to vote them class president, and the alternative is you (or yes, your 'soul,' whatever that is) spends time as a brick holding up the universe.

A lot of what you rant is part of what people dislike about this imaging of the afterlife, and I suspect your use of the term blackmail suggest that you understand what is upsetting about the arrangement, even if you have an outlook that successfully negates its power over you(/r characters).

[MaxWilson]

Sure, that won't scare someone with your precise philosophical outlook, but it scares the absolute crap out of most people. The entire concept of not existing is completely beyond the scope of an existing person's comprehension, because it's a state that we have no ability to witness.

I can already witness my nonexistence in lots of places. If it turns out that I never go to a million years from now, how is that any scarier than the possibility that I never go to Europe?

I think the thing that really scares people is the feeling, conscious or not, that they are entitled to an eternity of varied experiences and continued growth. "Nonexistence" as a fear is really just a proxy for missing out on that. But conventional ideas of "heaven" as a place where nothing happens, especially in a D&D context where most of the action is in the Blood War and the Good-aligned planes mostly sit around and do nothing, is already missing the part of eternity that would make it interesting. It's a short step from bounded experience to bounded existence, and it's not obvious why you'd prefer one over the other.


That makes it the unknown, and the unknown is inherently terrifying to the human mind. We want to quantify and categorize things by nature, it's how we work. And any time we're denied this, it bothers us. Consider your own philosophy- if you had not been able to quantify and categorize nonexistence in such a manner, would you still be unafraid? Because most people that don't come to this conclusion and don't have an adamant belief in an afterlife are scared of it.

Impossible to answer this question without breaking forum rules on real-world religious discussion. Sorry.


Not to say you can't roleplay someone with a philosophical outlook on a state of nonexistence (or that you're wrong, because I don't think you are), but saying it's unpersuasive is ignoring the masses to whom it is, in fact, very persuasive.

Perhaps. I acknowledge that human beings typically do not think the way I expect normal people to think. But as a DM I have the privilege of creating a universe full of people who actually make sense, and even as a player I can at least play my PC in a way that makes sense.

[Tanarii]

I have no idea what direction this thread went in, and I don't care. This is my response to the original post.
Yeah I'm a little disappointed a I love/hate Spelljammer thread became an is FR the default setting / FR's wall of the faithless thread. But you can't steer the Internet.

Personally I love Spelljammer because it just feels so much like Adventure! Which is funny, because normally I'm closer to a Guy at the Gym makes for good verisimilitude & magic should be rare and fantastic stick-in-the-mud.

But also because I loved looking at all the ship layouts and imagining how the hell the crew was supposed to fit in such a tiny space. :smallamused:

[Cybren]

I can already witness my nonexistence in lots of places. If it turns out that I never go to a million years from now, how is that any scarier than the possibility that I never go to Europe?


This appears to be an argument rooted in semantic differences between uses of the verb "to be"

[MaxWilson]

This appears to be an argument rooted in semantic differences between uses of the verb "to be"

It may look that way, but I think it's actually an argument about what a worthwhile eternity would actually look like. I think people are aware at some level that they want something more than everlasting existence, and when you say "nonexistence" they unconsciously feel loss aversion for that implied state of everlasting experience.

I don't think there are many people who really, truly just want everlasting existence.

[Cybren]

It may look that way, but I think it's actually an argument about what a worthwhile eternity would actually look like. I think people are aware at some level that they want something more than everlasting existence, and when you say "nonexistence" they unconsciously feel loss aversion for that implied state of everlasting experience.

I don't think there are many people who really, truly just want everlasting existence.

No, it is exactly that way. Notice that you use the word "witness" to demonstrate your lack of proximity to europe, but elide that during the Now portion of your example, you can witness something, even if it is not Europe, while in the Million Years From Now portion, you can't witness anything, because "you" no longer exist. That is the crux of the argument, and you're now shifting the goal posts to "eternity isn't even that great"- no one argued it is, the point is whether or not you find non-existing terrifying, not if existing forever would also be terrifying in its own way.

[Nifft]

Sure, that won't scare someone with your precise philosophical outlook, but it scares the absolute crap out of most people. The entire concept of not existing is completely beyond the scope of an existing person's comprehension, because it's a state that we have no ability to witness.

Well that's just poor preparation on their part, since they had a veritable eternity of non-existence preceding birth to get mentally adjusted to the virtual eternity of non-existence that comes after death.

Existence is a very brief aberration in any particular creature's eternal timeline, after which normalcy returns.

Honestly non-existence means no problems, it's highly preferable.

#TharizdunAdvice

[jaappleton]

Sorry to do this.

But I have to do this.

Tito himself says it was a throwaway comment, Spelljammer is NOT officially confirmed.

https://twitter.com/Gregtito/status/1016770212887068672

[Regitnui]

So I guess we have to... giff up for now.

[Unoriginal]

Sorry to do this.

But I have to do this.

Tito himself says it was a throwaway comment, Spelljammer is NOT officially confirmed.

https://twitter.com/Gregtito/status/1016770212887068672

Eh, it's not a problem.

[Beechgnome]

Sorry to do this.

But I have to do this.

Tito himself says it was a throwaway comment, Spelljammer is NOT officially confirmed.

https://twitter.com/Gregtito/status/1016770212887068672

We are lost in a sea of phlogiston, but wiser for the knowing.

[Waterdeep Merch]

sorry to do this.

But i have to do this.

tito himself says it was a throwaway comment, spelljammer is not officially confirmed.

https://twitter.com/gregtito/status/1016770212887068672

Spelljammer confirmed unconfirmed.

[mgshamster]

That's kind of ****ed up.

Call in: Hey designer, is Spelljammer confirmed?

Designer: Yes.

Later...

Designer: My answer of "yes" was actually a joke.

I mean, how else can you take an answer of "yes"? How would anyone be able to tell that it was a joke?

Seriously, **** move, man.

You'd better damn well give people something good after that - Ebberon, Dark Sun, Planescape, maybe even Spelljammer - or an entire new setting! But don't say "yes" if asked directly if it's not actually true. That's not a joke, that's a flat out lie.

About the only thing I can see is that he had a talking-to afterwards and was told to backpedal on the answer until the official release, which would kind of make it ok.

[RedMage125]

So I guess we have to... giff up for now.

LOVE IT!

And I, for one, was not that excited about Spelljammer. I know only a little bit about it from reading I did during and post-2e era. I read a little more about Planescape, but only every played Torment.

My personal hope was, and is, for Eberron. But if they DO make Spelljammer, I'll probably buy it. It was interesting enough in concept for me to be open-minded and excited.

[MaxWilson]

No, it is exactly that way. Notice that you use the word "witness" to demonstrate your lack of proximity to europe, but elide that during the Now portion of your example, you can witness something, even if it is not Europe, while in the Million Years From Now portion, you can't witness anything, because "you" no longer exist. That is the crux of the argument, and you're now shifting the goal posts to "eternity isn't even that great"- no one argued it is, the point is whether or not you find non-existing terrifying, not if existing forever would also be terrifying in its own way.

<<Notice that you use the word "witness" to demonstrate your lack of proximity to europe, but elide that during the Now portion of your example>>

I don't know what you mean here. They're exactly the same. I have no interaction interface with either today in Europe or a million years from now on Earth. I can't witness either of them. I can reasonably infer certain things about both locations, but "I" am not "there" (to whatever extent it's meaningful to talk about me having location(s); i.e. I have no interaction interface in either place, as far as I know).

You're drawing a distinction but I am not seeing the difference. Can you explain?

[Cybren]

<<Notice that you use the word "witness" to demonstrate your lack of proximity to europe, but elide that during the Now portion of your example>>

I don't know what you mean here. They're exactly the same. I have no interaction interface with either today in Europe or a million years from now on Earth. I can't witness either of them. I can reasonably infer certain things about both locations, but "I" am not "there" (to whatever extent it's meaningful to talk about me having location(s); i.e. I have no interaction interface in either place, as far as I know).

You're drawing a distinction but I am not seeing the difference. Can you explain?

You're drawing a false equivalency between "somewhere far away" and "somewhen far away", because while you might not have an interaction interface with europe right now, you have an interaction interface with something right now, as opposed to a million years from now when you no longer have an interaction interface with anything. You're comparing "Existing in a specific place" with "not existing". They aren't comparable.

[MaxWilson]

You're drawing a false equivalency between "somewhere far away" and "somewhen far away", because while you might not have an interaction interface with europe right now, you have an interaction interface with something right now, as opposed to a million years from now when you no longer have an interaction interface with anything. You're comparing "Existing in a specific place" with "not existing". They aren't comparable.

Einstein disagrees. There's a reference frame in which what you think of as "Europe right now" is millions of years in the future, and that reference frame is as physically valid (i.e. predictive) as the one you currently inhabit, if we neglect quantum effects (because nobody understands how to reconcile quantum effects with relavitity). Simultaneity isn't an objective concept.

"Not here" is "not here," period.

[Cybren]

Einstein disagrees. There's a reference frame in which what you think of as "Europe right now" is millions of years in the future, and that reference frame is as physically valid (i.e. predictive) as the one you currently inhabit, if we neglect quantum effects (because nobody understands how to reconcile quantum effects with relavitity). Simultaneity isn't an objective concept.

"Not here" is "not here," period.

Uh-huh. "not-here" doesn't answer the question of where you are. You can go on and on about irrelevant metaphors using physics, but in one category you are somewhere, in another, you are nowhere.

[Unoriginal]

That's kind of ****ed up.

Call in: Hey designer, is Spelljammer confirmed?

Designer: Yes.

Later...

Designer: My answer of "yes" was actually a joke.

I mean, how else can you take an answer of "yes"? How would anyone be able to tell that it was a joke?


Mgshamster, call-in was "Question: SPELLJAMMER CONFIRMED" and the guys were laughing and saying "aha, it's not a question". Then laughed again after the "yes".

[jaappleton]

That's kind of ****ed up.

Call in: Hey designer, is Spelljammer confirmed?

Designer: Yes.

Later...

Designer: My answer of "yes" was actually a joke.

I mean, how else can you take an answer of "yes"? How would anyone be able to tell that it was a joke?

Seriously, **** move, man.

You'd better damn well give people something good after that - Ebberon, Dark Sun, Planescape, maybe even Spelljammer - or an entire new setting! But don't say "yes" if asked directly if it's not actually true. That's not a joke, that's a flat out lie.

About the only thing I can see is that he had a talking-to afterwards and was told to backpedal on the answer until the official release, which would kind of make it ok.

I mentioned this in the Eberron topic.

After thinking about it for a moment... I'm not buying Tito's "joking".

I think Spelljammer IS confirmed. Since Chris ***** took over as WOTC President, D&D has been more popular than ever before. There's tons of reasons for that, including streaming, etc. Not just him, I know that. But he came from Microsoft, he knows about competition and giving fans what they want... ESPECIALLY fans who move away from your product and toward another. If you can give them that same product, you do it. Right? Don't need a business degree for that to simply make sense. So to combat Starfinder, they bring back Spelljammer.

I simply think that Tito spoke perhaps a little too soon, and was told to put a damper on the Spelljammer talk.

[jaappleton]

Mgshamster, call-in was "Question: SPELLJAMMER CONFIRMED" and the guys were laughing and saying "aha, it's not a question". Then laughed again after the "yes".

He did deadpan at the camera, and say "Yes", and there was a moment before laughter continued.

I can certainly see both sides, was he joking or not? I just think that's an important detail.

[Cybren]

That seems a little too conspiratorial to me. They probably are working on, even if in the earliest stages, something Spelljammer related. But they're probably not ready to announce anything and he just did really make a joke, that within context, definitely seemed like a joke.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Einstein disagrees. There's a reference frame in which what you think of as "Europe right now" is millions of years in the future, and that reference frame is as physically valid (i.e. predictive) as the one you currently inhabit, if we neglect quantum effects (because nobody understands how to reconcile quantum effects with relavitity). Simultaneity isn't an objective concept.


<Wince>. Speaking as a physicist, none of this is true.

1) The earth is a rotating reference frame, so the normal version of special relativity does not apply.
2) "Europe right now" is in causal contact with us, right now, so none of those other reference frames matter. Yes, physics works the same, but you don't get the same predictions (due to #1)
3) You're talking of special relativity here, which works just fine with QM
4) Simultaneity is objective, but it's not universal. In any frame, the question "Do events A and B happen simultaneously" has a well defined value for all observers in that frame. That value is not the same in all reference frames, however.

One of my pet peeves is non-physicists trying to use QM or relativity out of their appropriate contexts. Like military historians wincing at D&D's weapons and armor tables.

[mgshamster]

I mentioned this in the Eberron topic.

After thinking about it for a moment... I'm not buying Tito's "joking".

I think Spelljammer IS confirmed. Since Chris ***** took over as WOTC President, D&D has been more popular than ever before. There's tons of reasons for that, including streaming, etc. Not just him, I know that. But he came from Microsoft, he knows about competition and giving fans what they want... ESPECIALLY fans who move away from your product and toward another. If you can give them that same product, you do it. Right? Don't need a business degree for that to simply make sense. So to combat Starfinder, they bring back Spelljammer.

I simply think that Tito spoke perhaps a little too soon, and was told to put a damper on the Spelljammer talk.

That's where I'm at. I think he spoke too soon - afterall, the reveal isn't supposed to be for another week or so, right?

I mean, I'm not super excited about Spelljammer. It's a cool setting and all, but not one I've really ever played that much or loved reading about.

Planescape, on the other hand, I'd be excited for. But I'm not sure they'll do much with that as they've already given enough of Planescape material in the PHB and DMG to run a homebrew campaign.

Everyone always forgets that it's there when they complain that FR is the only setting out, but FR isn't the only one. There are four settings out right now: Planescape in the PHB/DMG, Forgotten Realms, Barovia, and the Plane Shift stuff released for free - which has at least 5 different worlds. Maybe five if you count the underdark (OotA) as it's own thing and even possibly a sixth if you consider that the jungle setting of Chult (ToA) is far enough away from the classic FR stuff that it might as well be it's own thing.

We've got a ton of material released.

[MaxWilson]

<Wince>. Speaking as a physicist, none of this is true.

1) The earth is a rotating reference frame, so the normal version of special relativity does not apply.
2) "Europe right now" is in causal contact with us, right now, so none of those other reference frames matter. Yes, physics works the same, but you don't get the same predictions (due to #1)
3) You're talking of special relativity here, which works just fine with QM
4) Simultaneity is objective, but it's not universal. In any frame, the question "Do events A and B happen simultaneously" has a well defined value for all observers in that frame. That value is not the same in all reference frames, however.

One of my pet peeves is non-physicists trying to use QM or relativity out of their appropriate contexts. Like military historians wincing at D&D's weapons and armor tables.

As a physicist you know better than that. Europe at the moment I was typing that had no causal contact with me. Europe then has causal contact with me now, because it has been some time, but Europe "now" (using the word in its conventional sense) does not.

The point stands. There are all kinds of spacetime locii at which "I" already don't exist (to whatever extent it makes sense to talk about my self having a spacetime location). Niffft mentioned the ancient past, as another example? Who cares if I add more? Indisputably I don't, and arguably other people wouldn't, given the D&D alternatives.

[PhoenixPhyre]

As a physicist you know better than that. Europe at the moment I was typing that had no causal contact with me. Europe then has causal contact with me now, because it has been some time, but Europe now does not.

And I didn't say Earth was the reference frame, you just made that up (falsely assumed it).

The point stands.

We're in a rotating reference frame, as is Europe. So you can't just blindly apply Special Relativity. Specifically, it's an accelerating frame. As a result, there isn't guaranteed to be a frame that matches your criteria. So no. The point fails.

And you can't just grab an arbitrary frame, since there's a well-defined observer in this case. The one either you or Cybren inhabits. All others are irrelevant. So even if one exists (somewhere), you have no access to it and the point is an irrelevancy in an attempt to appear smarter than someone else.

[Cybren]

The point stands. There are all kinds of spacetime locii at which "I" already don't exist (to whatever extent it makes sense to talk about my self having a spacetime location). Niffft mentioned the ancient past, as another example? Who cares if I add more? Indisputably I don't, and arguably other people wouldn't, given the D&D alternatives.

You're deliberately conflating space and time into "spacetime" so you can pretend to have a point. it's silly and you know better. It's not particularly applicable when time alone is the specific thing in question.

[MaxWilson]

You're deliberately conflating space and time into "spacetime" so you can pretend to have a point. it's silly and you know better. It's not particularly applicable when time alone is the specific thing in question.

That is the point.


We're in a rotating reference frame, as is Europe. So you can't just blindly apply Special Relativity. Specifically, it's an accelerating frame. As a result, there isn't guaranteed to be a frame that matches your criteria. So no. The point fails.

You can choose to use a rotating reference frame, but I don't have to follow your choice. All I need to know is which spacetime events you would consider to be simultaneous, in your reference frame, with "here and now." There are other reference frames in which those events are separated from here and now by millions of years.


And you can't just grab an arbitrary frame, since there's a well-defined observer in this case. The one either you or Cybren inhabits. All others are irrelevant. So even if one exists (somewhere), you have no access to it and the point is an irrelevancy in an attempt to appear smarter than someone else.

You seriously claim to be a professional physicist and make this claim? It's wrong.

[JoeJ]

A thread about Spelljammer - a setting in which ships have gravity planes but crystal spheres large enough to encompass an entire solar system have no gravity at all - has evolved into a debate about Special Relativity. Wow.

[Jama7301]

A thread about Spelljammer - a setting in which ships have gravity planes but crystal spheres large enough to encompass an entire solar system have no gravity at all - has evolved into a debate about Special Relativity. Wow.

An encapsulation on why we cannot have Nice Things

[Beechgnome]

An encapsulation on why we cannot have Nice Things

E = mc^2 where E Is the enmity contained a thread, m is the size (or length) of the thread and c is the speed at which the replies are written.

In other words, every time a thread goes from 20 to 159 replies in an hour, you can be sure it has derailed.

[Solamnicknight]

An encapsulation on why we cannot have Nice Things Here let me try to get this back on the rails. If Spelljammer is coming out I'm really excited. I might even throw my existing party into space considering they are about to hit the higher levels soon, they are 9th going on 10th now. Or this might be my next campaign, putting off a Force and Destiny campaign I was planning since Spelljammer is that much fun. One of my players upon hearing the news already asked to play a Giff. :smallbiggrin: Kudos to WOTC if they do this, its a fun setting.

[PhoenixPhyre]

A thread about Spelljammer - a setting in which ships have gravity planes but crystal spheres large enough to encompass an entire solar system have no gravity at all - has evolved into a debate about Special Relativity. Wow.


An encapsulation on why we cannot have Nice Things

Yeah. Sorry about that. Before I got lost in the weeds, that was my point. Don't bring real-world physics into the game, because it doesn't apply.

[Cybren]

Yeah. Sorry about that. Before I got lost in the weeds, that was my point. Don't bring real-world physics into the game, because it doesn't apply.

Also it was a bad metaphor and a circuitous, nonsensical point. Dying is not the same as not going to europe. It's facile to compare the two.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Also it was a bad metaphor and a circuitous, nonsensical point. Dying is not the same as not going to europe. It's facile to compare the two.

That too.

Although I'll admit my hands weren't clean. I let my frustration with a particular individual spill over into text. That's my bad on unnecessary acrimony.

[Solamnicknight]

E = mc^2 where E Is the enmity contained a thread, m is the size (or length) of the thread and c is the speed at which the replies are written.

In other words, every time a thread goes from 20 to 159 replies in an hour, you can be sure it has derailed.

You win the thread with that quote, my gnomish-Canadian friend.:smallwink:

[Jama7301]

Every time a new setting book comes up or even the idea of one, I am torn.

Part of me wants it to be a new setting entirely, so we don't have to hear complaints of a setting being misinterpreted or what have you. The downside of this is that a lot of people will say "Why wasn't this Eberron/Dark Sun/Greyhawk/Spelljammer/Planescape/et al?"

If you do one of those, you can make longtime fans happy, or you can make them angry with that whole "Why did they change how [feature A] works?!", as well as the Eberron/Dark Sun/Greyhawk/Spelljammer/Planescape/et al fans who didn't get a new toy this time.

The "Manual of the Planes" type book starts to make more and more sense to me as time goes by, especially since it feels that GMs are a much much MUCH smaller percentage of the potential market than players. Making several GM-focused books around different planes seems like an unwise move, business-wise.

[JoeJ]

So what would set the CR for a gammaroid at?

[Solamnicknight]

Every time a new setting book comes up or even the idea of one, I am torn.

Part of me wants it to be a new setting entirely, so we don't have to hear complaints of a setting being misinterpreted or what have you. The downside of this is that a lot of people will say "Why wasn't this Eberron/Dark Sun/Greyhawk/Spelljammer/Planescape/et al?"

If you do one of those, you can make longtime fans happy, or you can make them angry with that whole "Why did they change how [feature A] works?!", as well as the Eberron/Dark Sun/Greyhawk/Spelljammer/Planescape/et al fans who didn't get a new toy this time.

The "Manual of the Planes" type book starts to make more and more sense to me as time goes by, especially since it feels that GMs are a much much MUCH smaller percentage of the potential market than players. Making several GM-focused books around different planes seems like an unwise move, business-wise.

I heard they were planning on making a multi-setting book. My guess would be that Spelljammer, Krynn, Greyhawk and Dark Sun are going to be in a compilation book, with future books providing more details on each setting. Also I think Ebberron is getting it’s own book judging by that teaser picture that was on Twitter. This would make a lot of sense since all those Ad&d settings I mentioned are interconnected especially Krynn, Greyhawk, And Spelljammer. Dark Sun makes sense to include because it can introduce Psionic rules needed to make Ebberron work. Also Krynn and Greyhawk don’t need big initial write ups since they have similar classes races and monsters to the Forgotten Realms So my guess is they will release an ad&d setting compilation book first, probably in November or December then Ebberron next year.

[Solamnicknight]

So what would set the CR for a gammaroid at?

I’m guessing somewhere from 19-20 something. I mean Demogorgon is 26 in Mordenkainen’s guide

[Beechgnome]

You win the thread with that quote, my gnomish-Canadian friend.:smallwink:

When my wife asks, I will say 'Why yes, I did accomplish something today.'

[Solamnicknight]

When my wife asks, I will say 'Why yes, I did accomplish something today.'
At least you accomplished something. I just sat around watching the CGI Clone Wars series with my best friend today. Though I might get some work done on the novel I’m writing before I go to bed.

[MaxWilson]

So what would set the CR for a gammaroid at?

Well, let's see. In AD&D (2nd edition), a Gammaroid was 2500' across and had 100 HD (450ish HP) and three attacks for 10d6/10d6/60d4 (I'm not even going to worry about the whirling attack) and was worth 125,000 XP. That makes it about 50% harder to kill than the AD&D Tarrasque and with something like 3x the damage output.

HP inflation in 5E is 2x to 4x relative to 5E, and I'd guesstimate that damage inflation is in the 1x to 3x range. So a 5E conversion of a Gammaroid ought to have something around 1300 HP, inflicting something like 400-500 points of damage per turn. That takes it off the edge of the DMG CR chart, but extrapolating we get a defensive CR of around 37 and an offensive CR of 34-35ish. Call it CR 36 overall.

[Solamnicknight]

Well, let's see. In AD&D (2nd edition), a Gammaroid was 2500' across and had 100 HD (450ish HP) and three attacks for 10d6/10d6/60d4 (I'm not even going to worry about the whirling attack) and was worth 125,000 XP. That makes it about 50% harder to kill than the AD&D Tarrasque and with something like 3x the damage output.

HP inflation in 5E is 2x to 4x relative to 5E, and I'd guesstimate that damage inflation is in the 1x to 3x range. So a 5E conversion of a Gammaroid ought to have something around 1300 HP, inflicting something like 400-500 points of damage per turn. That takes it off the edge of the DMG CR chart, but extrapolating we get a defensive CR of around 37 and an offensive CR of 34-35ish. Call it CR 36 overall.
Wow, gammaroids sounded like nasty monsters. Of course they are asteroid sized giant turtles.

[MaxWilson]

Wow, gammaroids sounded like nasty monsters. Of course they are asteroid sized giant turtles.

Note that they're not even close to the nastiest monsters in wildspace (Spelljammer). Ancient Solar Dragons are thousands of times bigger (two million feet long at max) with spellcasting to match, and Constellants have a size measured in terms of thousands of square miles.

[JoeJ]

Well, let's see. In AD&D (2nd edition), a Gammaroid was 2500' across and had 100 HD (450ish HP) and three attacks for 10d6/10d6/60d4 (I'm not even going to worry about the whirling attack) and was worth 125,000 XP. That makes it about 50% harder to kill than the AD&D Tarrasque and with something like 3x the damage output.

Yeah, comparing the stats shows that a gammaroid would eat the tarrasque for lunch.

[KorvinStarmast]

Why haven't the majority of FR citizens become angry atheists with the gods causing so much trouble all the time? "Yes, I believe you exist, I just refuse to pray to you because you're a bleep!" In the FR, there is no question or uncertainty about whether gods exist. They simply do, and their servants (clerics mostly) do a variety of magical things as a direct result. It's not like religion here in Real Life. Being an atheist in FR makes utterly no sense.
Demons and devils exist as well. So do fey, spirits, banshees, and dragons. So Does Magic. Bertrand Russel has no place in the FR, his teapot has no leg to stand on.

Sometimes, it might be better to understand the setting before asking such a question. FR isn't Philadelphia, or London, or Tokyo, or Rome in 2018.

PS: giff up was a nice touch. :smallbiggrin:

An encapsulation on why we cannot have Nice Things The list of reasons for that is long and distinguished.
Also it was a bad metaphor and a circuitous, nonsensical point. Dying is not the same as not going to europe. It's facile to compare the two. I've been to Europe. I have not died. I can't offer any experience based input on this.

Wow, gammaroids sounded like nasty monsters. Of course they are asteroid sized giant turtles. Gammaroids got nuthin' on RL hemorrhoids. Just sayin':smalltongue:

[Solamnicknight]

Note that they're not even close to the nastiest monsters in wildspace (Spelljammer). Ancient Solar Dragons are thousands of times bigger (two million feet long at max) with spellcasting to match, and Constellants have a size measured in terms of thousands of square miles.
Spelljammer sounds like the perfect setting to challenge my current party. They beat a Mindflayer in one round at level 8 due to a horrible initiative roll on the Mindflayer’s part plus clever use of a horn of Valhalla.

[MeeposFire]

He did deadpan at the camera, and say "Yes", and there was a moment before laughter continued.

I can certainly see both sides, was he joking or not? I just think that's an important detail.

Perhaps it could be like Ravenloft where we did not get a full setting but we did get an adventure and some other material. IN this case we would be getting Spelljammer stuff but not an actual setting book. Might explain the coy answers because stuff could be coming but not always what we might be thinking.

[thepsyker]

... or had lived in it and had perhaps had a sugar cube or two before that ...
Well he did write the 1st edition Manual of the Planes....

[Chaosmancer]

One thing that makes me nervous about a potential Spelljammer setting is that (from my understanding) you would kind of need ship to ship combat rules.

And one thing WotC is currently failing at is alternative ways to do combat, so that wouldn't bode well I think.

Plus, DnD would never be my go to system for Sci-Fi games. It is fantasy for me, and fantasy in space is odd.

[JoeJ]

Plus, DnD would never be my go to system for Sci-Fi games. It is fantasy for me, and fantasy in space is odd.

There is absolutely nothing "Sci" about Spelljammer.

[Naanomi]

There is absolutely nothing "Sci" about Spelljammer.
Eh... it skirts the edge. Jules Verne sci-fi, not Star-Trek, but in the same wheelhouse often enough

[JoeJ]

Eh... it skirts the edge. Jules Verne sci-fi, not Star-Trek, but in the same wheelhouse often enough

Wooden sailing ships fly through space, with gravity along the plane of their main deck. Solar systems are surrounded by colossal crystal spheres, separating the vacuum inside from the flammable phlogiston outside. Stars are attached to the crystal spheres; they're light towers, or portals to the plane of radiance, or just about anything else because what the stars really are varies from one solar system to the next. Some planets move on their own, but others are carried on the backs of gigantic animals. And some just don't move. There are space whales, and mummies that travel through space in flying stone pyramids. That's not Jules Verne, it's Pirates of the Caribbean in space.

[Unoriginal]

Eh. People generally have a pretty mistaken idea of what science-fiction is. Many classify Star Wars as sf, for example, including its writers, when it clearly isn't.


That's not Jules Verne, it's Pirates of the Caribbean in space.


I'd pay good money for a Pirates of the Caribbean-style fight scene involving Giffs and Neogi.

[Willie the Duck]

I'd pay good money for a Pirates of the Caribbean-style fight scene involving Giffs and Neogi.

See if you can contact Disney/Bruckheimer. They're clearly out of ideas, yet going to be releasing a new one of those every few years until Johnny Depp looks like Keith Richards.

[Tanarii]

Plus, DnD would never be my go to system for Sci-Fi games. It is fantasy for me, and fantasy in space is odd.
Not sure why not. D&D has a long history of a certain brand of fantasy that is often mistaken for sci-fi. The already mention Jules Verne style Victorian-punk. Gnome-punk (Krynn), Airships and Drills/Elevators to the Center of the Earth (notably Mystara) and Mage-punk (Eberron).

For that matter, the entirety of Psionics.

For direct sci-fi there's the obvious example of that whole Barrier Peaks incident.

[Cybren]

Eh. People generally have a pretty mistaken idea of what science-fiction is. Many classify Star Wars as sf, for example, including its writers, when it clearly isn't.




I'd pay good money for a Pirates of the Caribbean-style fight scene involving Giffs and Neogi.

Star Wars is very clearly science fiction, in the vein of Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers. The "star wars is fantasy not sci fi" line is pointless bilge on the level of claiming a hot dog is a sandwich

[Naanomi]

Wooden sailing ships fly through space, with gravity along the plane of their main deck. Solar systems are surrounded by colossal crystal spheres, separating the vacuum inside from the flammable phlogiston outside. Stars are attached to the crystal spheres; they're light towers, or portals to the plane of radiance, or just about anything else because what the stars really are varies from one solar system to the next. Some planets move on their own, but others are carried on the backs of gigantic animals. And some just don't move. There are space whales, and mummies that travel through space in flying stone pyramids. That's not Jules Verne, it's Pirates of the Caribbean in space.
Technically not all stars are attached to the crystal sphere (though some are); some are actually ‘fire planets’, freefloating portals, divine phenomenon inside the sphere, living constellations or colossal glowing insects living on the crystal sphere’s surface... some are actually phenomenon outside the crystal sphere ‘shining through’ as well.

To address the larger issue, just because a work of fiction is built on discredited science doesn’t mean it isn’t science fiction. Something can be fantasy and science fiction at the same time

[Tanarii]

Star Wars is very clearly science fiction, in the vein of Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers. The "star wars is fantasy not sci fi" line is pointless bilge on the level of claiming a hot dog is a sandwich
Ffs did you have to take the bait? :smallyuk: Take the thread-jacking 10 page debate to a new thread in the general forum. :smallamused:

[KorvinStarmast]

One thing that makes me nervous about a potential Spelljammer setting is that (from my understanding) you would kind of need ship to ship combat rules. Yes! Original D&D (three brown books) had not bad rules for ship-to-ship combat, but not great rules. it figures. Arneson and Gygax had authored/produced a naval combat game together called "Don't Give up the Ship (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Don%27t_Give_Up_the_Ship_played_at_Gen_Con_2013.jp g/220px-Don%27t_Give_Up_the_Ship_played_at_Gen_Con_2013.jp g)!" previously.
And one thing WotC is currently failing at is alternative ways to do combat, so that wouldn't bode well I think. Yeah. Mounted combat, mass combat, and ship to ship combat all need work.

Plus, DnD would never be my go to system for Sci-Fi games. It is fantasy for me, and fantasy in space is odd. /me does Darth Vader voice *I find your lack of faith disturbing, Chaosmancer*

Jules Verne sci-fi, not Star-Trek, but in the same wheelhouse often enough Edgar Rice Burroughs for two hundred, Alex. :smallwink: An original inspiration/source.

Wooden sailing ships fly through space, with gravity along the plane of their main deck. Solar systems are surrounded by colossal crystal spheres, separating the vacuum inside from the flammable phlogiston outside. Stars are attached to the crystal spheres; they're light towers, or portals to the plane of radiance, or just about anything else because what the stars really are varies from one solar system to the next. Some planets move on their own, but others are carried on the backs of gigantic animals. And some just don't move. There are space whales, and mummies that travel through space in flying stone pyramids. That's not Jules Verne, it's Pirates of the Caribbean in space. It's also a good reason for me to review who had how many sugar cubes back then ...

See if you can contact Disney/Bruckheimer. They're clearly out of ideas, yet going to be releasing a new one of those every few years until Johnny Depp looks like Keith Richards. He's getting there, now that Keith had his teeth upgraded. :smallbiggrin:

For that matter, the entirety of Psionics. For direct sci-fi there's the obvious example of that whole Barrier Peaks incident. Mind flayers, as I recall roughly predated Greyhawk's release and were the starting point for psionics.

[Cybren]

Ffs did you have to take the bait? :smallyuk: Take the thread-jacking 10 page debate to a new thread in the general forum. :smallamused:

I'm not sure you can highjack a thread whose entire premise is false. At this point this is a general forum thread

[Tanarii]

Yeah. Mounted combat, mass combat, and ship to ship combat all need work.Largely because they just call out for hard war gaming systems, and downplay the individual. 5e went almost the opposite direction, especially in (by default) eschewing the battle mat.


Mind flayers, as I recall roughly predated Greyhawk's release and were the starting point for psionics.Pretty sure Mind Flayers have a history of being represented by magic first, then psionics second. But I'd have to check if they had a pre-Eldritch Wizardry write up to be sure, or if that was their first appearance.

Interestingly IIRC the original demon write ups, in Eldritch Wizardry, all had Psionics from the get go.


I'm not sure you can highjack a thread whose entire premise is false. At this point this is a general forum thread*grumble grumble*

[KorvinStarmast]

*taps hammer on the desk*

I wish to introduce an item of new business.

Proposed motion: a hot dog is a sandwich when served by a giff chef on a spelljammer.

Do I have a second?

/me ducks

[KorvinStarmast]

Largely because they just call out for hard war gaming systems, and downplay the individual. 5e went almost the opposite direction, especially in (by default) eschewing the battle mat.

Pretty sure Mind Flayers have a history of being represented by magic first, then psionics second. But I'd have to check if they had a pre-Eldritch Wizardry write up to be sure, or if that was their first appearance.

Interestingly IIRC the original demon write ups, in Eldritch Wizardry, all had Psionics from the get go. I can tell you for a fact that it predated EW, was the first creature feature in SR, and that it's attack was psi force, which became psionics in EW. Strategic Review, Issue 1, page 2. I have extracts from a Gygax / Kask interview with more detail here (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/72422/22566)...


CREATURE FEATURES
The Mind Flayer:
Number
Appearing 1-4
Armor Class 5
Hit Dice 8+3
% in Lair 50%
Treasure F
Magical Resistance 90%
This is a super-intelligent, man-shaped creature with four tentacles by its mouth which it uses to strike its prey. If a tentacle hits it will then penetrate to the brain, draw it forth, and the monster will devour it. Move 12” It will take one to four turns for the tentacle to reach the brain, at which time the victim is dead. A Mind Flayer will I flee if an encounter is going against it.
Their major weapon, however, is the Mind Blast, a wave PSI force with a 6” directional range and a radius of 5’. All within the radius must save as indicated or will suffer the result shown:(see table)
------------------------------
From the interview:

• Tim Kask: I LOVED psionic combat and had great fun devising it with all of its tables and charts. Apparently I was in the tiny minority. I guess mental combat was too esoteric for most D&Ders; not enough of them shared my fondness for the Dr. Strange Marvel comics and Mindflayers. God, I loved Mindflayers; they were all over my dungens. I just loved the idea of turning an annoying PC into a gibbering idiot.. Oh well, live and learn...)

• Gary Gygax: As for the psionics, that can of worms was my doing. I had created the mind flayer as a fine monster, and I should have left well enough alone; but no! I had to add mental powers, send the initial draft around. I soon hated the whole business, but Len Lakofka and his group in Chicago loved the concept, and Tim was enthused about the addition as well. So, as said Pilate, I washed my hands of the matter."

[Cybren]

Largely because they just call out for hard war gaming systems, and downplay the individual. 5e went almost the opposite direction, especially in (by default) eschewing the battle mat.

Ship to ship combat can largely work the same way as the current combat engine does, with the PCs voltronning together to control different actions for their Ship-As-Character, and it will function well enough. Mass combat though, at this point i'm likely to just steal the engine from another game. I don't get the obsession that people have with trying to port the monster manual statblocks for creatures into the mass combat engine. Don't do that. Just give armies their own stat blocks.

[KorvinStarmast]

We recently did a raid that ended up with our ship fighting a pirate ship. The initial closing attacks were ranged (archery) and then we boarded them ... and it became melee combat.

Worked out OK.

We used the rules in "Wilderness and Underworld adventures" (pages 28-30 in both D&D and empire of the petal throne campaigns that I played in. They worked pretty well, and you can see the influence of Don't Give Up The Ship! in the recommended 1:1200 scale models, etc. I am pretty sure that we can adapt them to 5e if needed, as they are pretty clear. You do have to C&P the catapult attacks from Chainmail, but as catapults are in 5e already probably not needed.

The hardest/strangest fight we had in EPT was galleys versus sailing ships, since for some reason the DM decided to change the wind about halfway through the fight due to a random die roll. (oops, guess who the DM was?)

[Tanarii]

Ship to ship combat can largely work the same way as the current combat engine does, with the PCs voltronning together to control different actions for their Ship-As-Character, and it will function well enough. The problem is you either need enough characters for all ship components. Including the boring things like powering the ship (helm) and steering the ship (rigging; many people) and attacking (generally catapults and ballista; many people). Or you need NPCs. And given the lack of moving parts, move and attack being pretty much all that is typically involved, at that point it's usually more fun to have each player control a ship. Or more than one even.

At least, that's how I remember it panning out in 2e. Spelljammer ship to ship combat was at its most fun when it was played like a game of Star Wars Armada. Or you just hand waved the entire thing and focused on the PCs once it got to knife-fighting range.

[Cybren]

Well given most d&d settings are generally high medieval, thats more or less how ship to ship combat SHOULD work.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well given most d&d settings are generally high medieval, thats more or less how ship to ship combat SHOULD work. Ramming Speed! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXh1tW16V-8)
Galleys were still being used in the 16th century. The cannon bearing ships, galleases, that made such a mark in 1571 at the battle of Lepanto got a lot of people interested in a change in naval warfare. So did advances in rigging, and the improvements in ship design and ship building.

For the whole medieval period, war at sea was as much "galley versus galley" as anything else.

Otherwise, yeah, Board 'em Me Hearties is what it boiled down to.

[Cybren]

Ramming Speed! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXh1tW16V-8)
Galleys were still being used in the 16th century. The cannon bearing ships, galleases, that made such a mark in 1571 at the battle of Lepanto got a lot of people interested in a change in naval warfare did advances in rigging, and the improvements in ship design and ship building.

For the whole medieval period, war at sea was as much "galley versus galley" as anything else.

Otherwise, yeah, Board 'em Me Hearties is what it boiled down to.

... in the Mediterranean. You need different kinds of ships in open ocean

[KorvinStarmast]

... in the Mediterranean. You need different kinds of ships in open ocean Cite a medieval battle on the open ocean. (are you thinking of an engagement in the new world between imperial powers?)

[Cybren]

Cite a medieval battle on the open ocean.

Cite a medieval battle during the 16th century :p

[KorvinStarmast]

Cite a medieval battle during the 16th century :p
I already did. Lepanto. It was the culmination of about a century of confrontation across the Mediterranean between the Ottomans, various Kingdoms, and various pirates and third parties.

If you are interested in further reading, Empires of the Sea (https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.y5kcU5ZTwzAUux8wgsfTcAHaHa&w=195&h=195&c=7&o=5&dpr=1.5&pid=1.7)is a great recap of that era, and includes a very readable account of the siege of Malta, as well as some naval battles.

[Cybren]

I already did. Lepanto. It was the culmination of about a century of confrontation across the Mediterranean between the Ottomans, various Kingdoms, and various pirates and third parties.

If you are interested in further reading, Empires of the Sea is a great recap of that era, and includes a very readable account of the siege of Malta, as well as some naval battles.

The battle of lepanto is solidly the early modern era by any configuration of the dates. It's nearly a century after discovery of the americas and more than a century after the fall of the eastern empire. Martin Luther has been dead for thirty years.

[MaxWilson]

Technically not all stars are attached to the crystal sphere (though some are); some are actually ‘fire planets’, freefloating portals, divine phenomenon inside the sphere, living constellations or colossal glowing insects living on the crystal sphere’s surface... some are actually phenomenon outside the crystal sphere ‘shining through’ as well.

To address the larger issue, just because a work of fiction is built on discredited science doesn’t mean it isn’t science fiction. Something can be fantasy and science fiction at the same time

In fact, extrapolating the implications of fictional alternate physics is a grand old tradition in SF. Spelljammer isn't *hard* SF, but stories set there, if they take the setting seriously, are as much soft SF as Poul Anderson's Time Patrol was or David Weber's Safehold series is.

It's questionable, for example, whether D&D characters are even made out of cells and atoms instead of infinitely-divisible Aristotelian elements. In a Spelljammer game you might meet a wizard who is actively exploring this question.

SF is not restricted to non-fictional science.

[Chaosmancer]

Not sure why not. D&D has a long history of a certain brand of fantasy that is often mistaken for sci-fi. The already mention Jules Verne style Victorian-punk. Gnome-punk (Krynn), Airships and Drills/Elevators to the Center of the Earth (notably Mystara) and Mage-punk (Eberron).

For that matter, the entirety of Psionics.

For direct sci-fi there's the obvious example of that whole Barrier Peaks incident.

Never played any of that.

It is all personal taste though. Mindflayers fall into the horror genre for me and that mixes far easier.

And in terms of "star wars", if we commit sacrilege and remove jedi and the force from consideration... Then there is practically no pure fantasy elements left in that world (no I'm not counting story tropes like the battle between good and evil)

Even taking DnD into a modern setting feels odd, because I expect bows she swords to be valid choices and once guns are ubiquitous those weapons don't make a lot of sense.

All my taste and my opinion. Got friends who'd love to run this and it just isn't my cup of tea.



Well given most d&d settings are generally high medieval, thats more or less how ship to ship combat SHOULD work.

Sure, if you've got things figured out for how each ship is damaged and neither side has wizards casting fireballs before they get in boarding distance.

But when talking something like Spelljammer if everything boiked down to boarding actions... Then it's just a new coat of paint not a new rule set

[Willie the Duck]

*taps hammer on the desk*

I wish to introduce an item of new business.

Proposed motion: a hot dog is a sandwich when served by a giff chef on a spelljammer.

Do I have a second?

/me ducks

No, me Duck, you Korvin.

[Tanarii]

Never played any of that.what is then?

I mean, Tolkien-esque fantasy and/or strict medievalism are a fairly small subset of all of D&D. They requires stripping out quite a lot of high level magic though, monsters, entire schools and types of magic, and sticking to low levels a la E6. There's just too many non-classic fantasy and anachronistic elements baked into D&D, by the original creators themselves.

Although I admit, looking at "high level" as anything about say ten (old "name level") has its own charm.


But when talking something like Spelljammer if everything boiked down to boarding actions... Then it's just a new coat of paint not a new rule setSince a new coat of pain and not a new rule set is what they seem to be going for with this edition ...

Unfortunately, that does limit not just Spelljammer, but also Dark Sun and Eberron. New mechanics were fairly integral to all those settings at the time.

[KorvinStarmast]

what is then?

I mean, Tolkien-esque fantasy and/or strict medievalism are a fairly small subset of all of D&D. They requires stripping out quite a lot of high level magic though, monsters, entire schools and types of magic, and sticking to low levels a la E6. There's just too many non-classic fantasy and anachronistic elements baked into D&D, by the original creators themselves.

Although I admit, looking at "high level" as anything about say ten (old "name level") has its own charm.

Since a new coat of pain and not a new rule set is what they seem to be going for with this edition ...

Unfortunately, that does limit not just Spelljammer, but also Dark Sun and Eberron. New mechanics were fairly integral to all those settings at the time. Other forms ... Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser; Greek mythology/heroic fantasy; Moorcock's various series that are very much high magic settings in tone; Conan the Barbarian; Jack Vance's speculative fiction; dragon slaying tales of varying kinds; and then there's the whole evil cult/horror/Cthulu type stuff; the variations are pretty wide.

[Sigreid]

Ship to ship combat can largely work the same way as the current combat engine does, with the PCs voltronning together to control different actions for their Ship-As-Character, and it will function well enough. Mass combat though, at this point i'm likely to just steal the engine from another game. I don't get the obsession that people have with trying to port the monster manual statblocks for creatures into the mass combat engine. Don't do that. Just give armies their own stat blocks.

For mass combat I use the old West End Games Star Wars technique. I only focus on what the PCs are doing, increasing or decreasing the difficulty of their part based on the relative strength of the sides in the conflict. I then describe what's happening in the larger battle based on how they are doing every few rounds.

[Naanomi]

It's questionable, for example, whether D&D characters are even made out of cells and atoms instead of infinitely-divisible Aristotelian elements. In a Spelljammer game you might meet a wizard who is actively exploring this question.
One of the old books, guide to the Inner Planes I think, talks about this. Physical matter is made of ‘atoms’ of the four elements, which may have a positive or negative energy ‘spin/charge’. In living things this is combined with spiritual energy (which originated as positive energy but takes on its own characteristics) and often mental/Astral energy (for sentient beings, and sometimes others) to make a whole being.

In the Outer Planes, only the soul and mental energy exist (barring visitors) and manifest in ways that are perceived as physical (but the natives would tell you that is just your perception problems).

Phlogiston is its own thing, not made of either Elemental matter nor manifest belief/thought, as are the crystal spheres themselves. Some other things are made out of ‘weird stuff’ that defy the system, like God Corpses and Far Realms denizens

[Thrudd]

Never played any of that.

It is all personal taste though. Mindflayers fall into the horror genre for me and that mixes far easier.

And in terms of "star wars", if we commit sacrilege and remove jedi and the force from consideration... Then there is practically no pure fantasy elements left in that world (no I'm not counting story tropes like the battle between good and evil)

Even taking DnD into a modern setting feels odd, because I expect bows she swords to be valid choices and once guns are ubiquitous those weapons don't make a lot of sense.

All my taste and my opinion. Got friends who'd love to run this and it just isn't my cup of tea.




Sure, if you've got things figured out for how each ship is damaged and neither side has wizards casting fireballs before they get in boarding distance.

But when talking something like Spelljammer if everything boiked down to boarding actions... Then it's just a new coat of paint not a new rule set

The genres of horror, fantasy, and science fiction overlap in so many ways that it is sometimes not really distinguishable.
Spelljammer really really isn't sci-fi, though. No sci at all. There's no new rule set, it is D&D with magic-powered flying ships (armed with catapults and ballistae) that can take you to other planes (D&D settings). It just adds another layer of fantasy cosmology on top of the already existing "great wheel" planes set up. There's a magical sea in between worlds that has weird creatures and hazards in it. It does add/allow a new level of weirdness and wackiness, but really just a small step up from a normal D&D setting.

If you run the game with a more strict medieval/ancient earth setting and are in the habit of amending and toning down D&D's normal excesses, then Spelljammer isn't for you. But if you've used Forgotten Realms or Eberron or really any official published D&D setting, it shouldn't be much adjustment. Especially great for high levels, but definitely not exclusively.

[MaxWilson]

The genres of horror, fantasy, and science fiction overlap in so many ways that it is sometimes not really distinguishable.
Spelljammer really really isn't sci-fi, though. No sci at all. There's no new rule set, it is D&D with magic-powered flying ships (armed with catapults and ballistae) that can take you to other planes (D&D settings).

Binary gravity has pretty big science implications.

[Chaosmancer]

what is then?

I mean, Tolkien-esque fantasy and/or strict medievalism are a fairly small subset of all of D&D. They requires stripping out quite a lot of high level magic though, monsters, entire schools and types of magic, and sticking to low levels a la E6. There's just too many non-classic fantasy and anachronistic elements baked into D&D, by the original creators themselves.

Although I admit, looking at "high level" as anything about say ten (old "name level") has its own charm.

I think we're talking past each other.

I said I've never played Mystara, Eberron or Krynn.

Most of the games I've played have been Generica land, sometimes with FR place names in it. That's also not super low gritty medieval only.


Look I'm not making a value judgement on this, I love steampunk and clockwork elements in DnD. I don't mind wizards flying through the air blasting fireballs at eldritch horrors. But, for me, getting in a spaceship and going to another planet is just a bridge too far.

Call me a hypocrite if you think I have to accept everything DnD has ever created, but that is the line my taste buds draw. Completely arbitrary. Just like how I think people who put ketchup on eggs are gross but I'm fine with salsa even though they both contain tomatoes.



Since a new coat of pain and not a new rule set is what they seem to be going for with this edition ...

Unfortunately, that does limit not just Spelljammer, but also Dark Sun and Eberron. New mechanics were fairly integral to all those settings at the time.

Yeah, but the mechanics for things like Artificers and Psionics are things I can feel somewhat confident in them doing. Alternative types of fighting and damaging structures seems to be a weakness to-date and that's key if a spelljammer is going to be fighting something.

[Tanarii]

Just like how I think people who put ketchup on eggs are gross but I'm fine with salsa even though they both contain tomatoes.Well in that case sir, I'll never doubt your good judgement again!


Yeah, but the mechanics for things like Artificers and Psionics are things I can feel somewhat confident in them doing. Alternative types of fighting and damaging structures seems to be a weakness to-date and that's key if a spelljammer is going to be fighting something.Good point. The former require new classes, which players love. The latter is new rules for modes of combat, which IMX they don't unless theyre war/board game geeks.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just like how I think people who put ketchup on eggs are gross but I'm fine with salsa even though they both contain tomatoes. We hold these truths to be self evident ... :smallbiggrin:
Now I am hungry to go and make an avocado omelet, with mushrooms and spinach, covered in salsa ... for supper, because I can.

[Thrudd]

Binary gravity has pretty big science implications.

So does the existence of a soul, deities, astral planes, anything that fantasy might introduce. A fantasy world's reality can be explored with the scientific method, that doesn't make it sci-fi. A sci-fi world must have at its foundation current scientifically derived understanding and theory, from which the setting is extrapolated (even if it generates results that current science says are impossible). Spelljammer could have been "sci-fi" in the middle ages, maybe, but it isn't now.

[KorvinStarmast]

So does the existence of a soul, deities, astral planes, anything that fantasy might introduce. A fantasy world's reality can be explored with the scientific method, that doesn't make it sci-fi. A sci-fi world must have at its foundation current scientifically derived understanding and theory, from which the setting is extrapolated (even if it generates results that current science says are impossible). Spelljammer could have been "sci-fi" in the middle ages, maybe, but it isn't now. A spelljammer seems to be a little bit like the ship that Eärendil sailed in, or now sails on -- Vingilot -- carrying the last Silmaril, in terms of this kind of journeying fitting into the fantasy setting. It allows the (character(s)) to set sail to realms beyond their normal realm, and do superheroic / legendary things in the process.

As it said in the car ad over a decade ago: the space shuttle's not just another commute.

[War_lord]

Sci-fi is an aesthetic, it's lasers and spaceships instead of wizards and wagons. That's it. Star Wars isn't sci-fi? I'll take the opinion of the actual creators and millions of fans over a handful of angry fiction grognards having very selective memories about Asimov's writings. Sci-fi is in no way required to have connections to real science, in fact even so called "hard" sci-fi is often forced to include elements that don't match up with real science, because that often gets in the way of a good story unless you're writing purely for Physicists.

Sci-fi has no "musts" except a loose aesthetic, the people who insist otherwise aren't the people keeping the multi million dollar franchises going. It's 2018, gatekeeping is very tedious.

[MaxWilson]

So does the existence of a soul, deities, astral planes, anything that fantasy might introduce. A fantasy world's reality can be explored with the scientific method, that doesn't make it sci-fi. A sci-fi world must have at its foundation current scientifically derived understanding and theory, from which the setting is extrapolated (even if it generates results that current science says are impossible). Spelljammer could have been "sci-fi" in the middle ages, maybe, but it isn't now.

I see your point, and you're not wrong, but a real-world demonstration of souls, gods, etc. would augment existing science and open up new fields. It could conceivably still happen in the real world, so to an extent you can get away with pretending that concepts from our universe like molecules and photosynthesis still apply.

Binary gravity's science implications are a bit different and more immediate. Much of what we already know cannot hold in a universe where gravity is binary instead of proportional to mass and inversely proportional to distance. If gravity is binary, then stars either don't run on fusion, or the physical constants are such that fusion is much easier to access (since the pressures in the heart of a sun-sized star will be much less than in our universe). There are no tides, or tides work for completely different reasons. There aren't any black holes. Etc.

So I think it is not correct for someone to claim that there is no science in and no science implications to Spelljammer.

[Naanomi]

Of course, ‘science’ is a much different field when very few fundamental laws exist that are true across all planes of existence. The vast majority of scientific knowledge would be highly localized out of necessity

[EvilAnagram]

Sci-fi is an aesthetic, it's lasers and spaceships instead of wizards and wagons. That's it. Star Wars isn't sci-fi? I'll take the opinion of the actual creators and millions of fans over a handful of angry fiction grognards having very selective memories about Asimov's writings. Sci-fi is in no way required to have connections to real science, in fact even so called "hard" sci-fi is often forced to include elements that don't match up with real science, because that often gets in the way of a good story unless you're writing purely for Physicists.

Sci-fi has no "musts" except a loose aesthetic, the people who insist otherwise aren't the people keeping the multi million dollar franchises going. It's 2018, gatekeeping is very tedious.

Yeah, the treatment of science fiction as being only hard science fiction is completely detached from the genre's canon. The Martian Chronicles is about colonialism and cultural anxiety, not science. Sure, the kind of science fiction that thoroughly explores a single idea in great detail is fantastic, and I'm glad it's making a comeback, but it isn't the whole of science fiction. Is Star Wars a fantasy story? Sure. Is it also sci-fi? Yup.

[Thrudd]

So I think it is not correct for someone to claim that there is no science in and no science implications to Spelljammer.
That's not really what I meant. I meant there's no attempt at putting real-world physics or science into D&D, the setting is not turning D&D into sci-fi. Not that the setting doesn't have its own science implications (which is true for all settings).

I think there is an argument to be made about refining the definition of science fiction as a genre re: speculative fiction in general, but it's not important. I agree- hi-tech, laser guns, space ships, and traveling between planets and stars are enough to let a setting be considered sci-fi in a colloquial sense. Spelljammer actually isn't even that.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sci-fi has no "musts" except a loose aesthetic, the people who insist otherwise aren't the people keeping the multi million dollar franchises going. It's 2018, gatekeeping is very tedious. And a lot of people refer to it as "speculative fiction" these days ... including a friend of mine who has published a few books in the genre.
Yeah, the treatment of science fiction as being only hard science fiction is completely detached from the genre's canon. The Martian Chronicles is about colonialism and cultural anxiety, not science. Sure, the kind of science fiction that thoroughly explores a single idea in great detail is fantastic, and I'm glad it's making a comeback, but it isn't the whole of science fiction. Is Star Wars a fantasy story? Sure. Is it also sci-fi? Yup. Amen. Starship Troopers wasn't hard science fiction, but it was sure Sci Fi.

[MaxWilson]

That's not really what I meant. I meant there's no attempt at putting real-world physics or science into D&D, the setting is not turning D&D into sci-fi. Not that the setting doesn't have its own science implications (which is true for all settings).

I think there is an argument to be made about refining the definition of science fiction as a genre re: speculative fiction in general, but it's not important. I agree- hi-tech, laser guns, space ships, and traveling between planets and stars are enough to let a setting be considered sci-fi in a colloquial sense. Spelljammer actually isn't even that.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. Yes, I agree with the characterization in bold.

You still see a lot of sci-fi tropes showing up in Spelljammer though, from Bug-Eyed Monsters to the Death Star. (Spelljammer's Death Star was built by beholders and is essentially an artificial beholder the size of a small moon.)

[War_lord]

And a lot of people refer to it as "speculative fiction" these days ... including a friend of mine who has published a few books in the genre.

My point on that matter would be that I'm yet to encounter any work from say, the 50's speculating about the 2000's that doesn't seem quaint and antiquated. Further, if someone wants to write a tract about what they think 2118 is going to look like, I'd rather they just do that without the flimsy afterthought (in most cases of speculative fiction) passing for narrative and characterization.

[JoeJ]

To address the larger issue, just because a work of fiction is built on discredited science doesn’t mean it isn’t science fiction. Something can be fantasy and science fiction at the same time

Discredited science means it was considered real science at one time. Nothing about Spelljammer meets that definition; not even the phlogiston, which shares only a name with a discredited scientific concept. If Spelljammer is a science fiction, then so is Planescape.

[Nifft]

If Spelljammer is a science fiction, then so is Planescape.

I'd make that trade.

[Sigreid]

Can we just call it Space Oprah and not argue about the line between science fiction and fantasy?

[mgshamster]

Can we just call it Space Oprah and not argue about the line between science fiction and fantasy?

Sure!

(Space operas are a sub genre of sci fi)

[EvilAnagram]

Sure!

(Space operas are a sub genre of sci fi)

Someone get this guy a miniature giant cookie.

[Sigreid]

Sure!

(Space operas are a sub genre of sci fi)

Eh, whatever. To me Space Opra means the science is setting backdrop and n ok t particularly important to the story.

[mgshamster]

Eh, whatever. To me Space Opra means the science is setting backdrop and n ok t particularly important to the story.

Oh, sure!

I mean, they're not hard science fiction, where the science and math parts are the key aspects of the story. But when one considers a hard sci fi, one must also consider that a soft sci fi exists as well.

If hard is when the science and math are important to the story, then soft must be where science and math aren't important to the story, but rather are simply there as a backdrop to some other aspects of the story.

And that's where we get space operas. :)

In the literary world, space operas are a sub-genra of sci-fi. Mostly because of space and the tech required to not only fly in space, but to thrive in it as well. It's just that the science isn't explored as part of the story.

If you really want to blend scifi and fantasy, try The Black Ocean series (JS Morin), which has space western, a sprinkling of hard sci fi, and magic all mixed in. Or perhaps the hard sci-fi Dream of the Iron Dragon (Robert Kroese), which is a story of humanity struggling to survive an intergalactic war with an alien species (and we're losing), only to have one of our ships travel back in time through an anomaly of a jump gate, crash in northern Europe, and end up trying to survive against Vikings in the year 800.

(Where we get Space Oprah's, I'm not sure)

[Sigreid]

Space Fantasy then? 😁

[Scripten]

(Where we get Space Oprah's, I'm not sure)

You get a Death Star and you get a Death Star! EVERYBODY gets a Death Star!

[Willie the Duck]

Sci-fi has no "musts" except a loose aesthetic, the people who insist otherwise aren't the people keeping the multi million dollar franchises going. It's 2018, gatekeeping is very tedious.

This is a thing of beauty. If this weren't so tangential to the general topics of this forum, I'd ask if I could sig it.


As it said in the car ad over a decade ago: the space shuttle's not just another commute.

Reminds me of the one Car Talk caller (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moAqzM4ptm8) who had a car with the problem that "It goes really rough for two and a half minutes, then goes smooth, then after six and a half minutes the engine dies" and had millions of miles on the odometer. :smallbiggrin:

[Nifft]

Space Fantasy then? 😁

SpaFa is a subgenre of SpecOps ("Speculative Opera"), which is a super-genre of FanFic ("Fantasy Fiction").

[EvilAnagram]

SpaFa is a subgenre of SpecOps ("Speculative Opera"), which is a super-genre of FanFic ("Fantasy Fiction").

I can't tell if you're joking.

[JoeJ]

Space Fantasy then? 😁

Space fantasy, absolutely.

I think the difference is clear in the aesthetics.

This is science fiction:

https://nerdist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Rebel_fleet_ESB.jpg

Or this, for a more retro look:

https://johnathensmith3dg90.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/flashg1.jpg


Spelljammer is something else:

https://img00.deviantart.net/2896/i/2008/087/9/b/hammership_by_silverbladete.jpg

https://canageek.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/ghost-ship.jpg

Wooden ship, with sails and open decks. Catapults and swords and primitive guns. There's no attempt to justify anything with terminology that sounds like scientific or engineering jargon. It's explicitly magical, and the aesthetics back that up.

[MaxWilson]

My point on that matter would be that I'm yet to encounter any work from say, the 50's speculating about the 2000's that doesn't seem quaint and antiquated. Further, if someone wants to write a tract about what they think 2118 is going to look like, I'd rather they just do that without the flimsy afterthought (in most cases of speculative fiction) passing for narrative and characterization.

Best sci-fi essay ever: The Theory and Practice of Teleportation (https://www.e-reading.club/chapter.php/75689/7/Niven_-_All_The_Myriad_Ways.html).

Just as you requested, it has no narrative and no characterization but lots of cool ideas and extrapolation.