Mike Mearls' New Cleric Domains

[Tanngrisnr]

This is NOT todays Unearthed Arcana, but it's something that Mike posted on twitter this last Sunday and I still haven't seen a topic about it.

These are the links for Beauty, Darkness and Destruction domains, and Moon should be coming along.

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1015752965213204480

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1015753942263664640

[Coffee_Dragon]

Huh. I worked briefly on a Moon domain, then resigned to the fact that 5E's domains occupy a higher level of abstraction.

[Speely]

That Beauty Domain is... beautiful.

[Kadesh]

That Beauty Domain is... beautiful.
I'm not sure that beautiful screams 'Potent Cantrips' to me. I'm not sure the radiating beauty should affect targets who can't even see you.

It's something I'd expect to see on D&Dwiki.

Mike Mearls proving yet again, he's an ideas guy (we have a word for those kind of Blue Sky, Out of the Box
Thankers, er Thinkers where we work) not a rules guy.

[MrStabby]

I kind of like all of these from an RP perspective and some of them mechanically as well.

Beauty seems like it's channel divinity could be exceptionally powerful but at the risk of sidelining other players - I might skip that one.

Destruction seems like it brings more options back to be blaster. The trouble is that I think it does step on the toes of the light domain a bit in this regard. Fireball and wrathful smite and lightning bolt and shatter and ice storm and destructive wave... it kind of seems a bit over the top. Add on sundering invocation and you have a really powerful blaster ability. If it were to get released I would imagine some of the spells would need fixing - and it might be a multiclass staple

Darkness is (to my mind) the best designed one of these. Level 1 abilities are ok if uninspiring (assuming that potent cantrip is supposed to work with chill touch - although it is not explicit). The shield effect seems best designed to ward off opportunity attacks - the level 6 upgrade makes it very potent though.

Shadowspawn is a bit nuts. Max damage for a minute with some hoops to jump through? Not overpowered but towards the upper limit of what I might expect. Potentially dangerous with multiclassing (Paladin for example) though so worth limiting. Nice synergy with the level 1 abilities. Even soul of darkness seems a fun capstone.


Looking forward to moon- some great potential there.

[Citan]

This is NOT todays Unearthed Arcana, but it's something that Mike posted on twitter this last Sunday and I still haven't seen a topic about it.

These are the links for Beauty, Darkness and Destruction domains, and Moon should be coming along.

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1015752965213204480

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1015753942263664640
Thanks for sharing. ;)

So... Quick thoughts (in one line: "completely off-board balance-wise, as expected")

Beauty
- nice spell selection, mix of utility/offense/healing.
- Rebuke the Defiler: overepowered at mid-level, broken at high levels (no upper limit to damage nor kind of trigger -so high level spells and natural abilities are in-, psychic damage, does not even consume a Channel Divinity).
- Channel Divinity: over the top. 100 feet wide area of people that are suddently the best friends of the world even if they were smashing each other's head just before, for one hour long, non-concentration? Plus the wording makes it kinda clunky. The idea is very nice though: I would argue that a writing closer to a "Mass Calm Emotions" or "Mass Sanctuary" would be simpler and better if you really want to achieve that kind of effect. As written, this kind of deity influence is something I could understand from a lvl 17 Cleric, not from a Cleric just nearly starting his "relationship" with his god.
- Soul of Beauty: seems in line in terms of power but very interesting to use.

Destruction
- Spells: there are some others that I would have suggested but overall nice selection, if only a bit focused (but hey, it fits the thematic ^^).
- Destructive Frenzy: "sunday-designer" writing. Completely fine for a single-class, stupidly crazy balance-smashing good with multiclassing. How could he miss that? It's compatible with any and every kind of weapon buff there is in game. Easy fix though: push it later, cap it as Paladin level or set upper limit it to "half-proficiency" max. AND set the same restriction as Sacred Weapon "if wasn't magical becomes for duration". AND also precise how to round (for that one I'd say "up" in case someone really wants to "waste" a 5th level slot on that).
Even with all that it's still extremely powerful (bonus action non-concentration, stacks with innate bonus in case of magic weapon).
For my games, I'd probably remove the "spend slots to increase bonus" altogether to instead push it for level 8 at least. Doesn't remove the potential multiclassing brokenness but moves it to a level at which DM will have more tools to compensate.
- Channel Divinity: seems fine to me since CON saving throw and linear scale. Probably feeling much more powerful at low levels than at high.
- Appetite for Destruction: congrats on making this Domain a must-have investment for many kind of Rogues, Barbarians, Paladins or Sharpshooters of all kinds.

Darkness
- spell choice: very nice mix. ;)
- 1st level ability: very good but in line at low levels, I'm afraid it would actually fall off gradually to become useless in the late levels (would it be really a problem though? I mean, it did help you get there on the way).
- Channel Divinity: another stupidly broken strong ability until very high levels (depends on how you understand "can see you" and blindsight/truesight), making it the mandatory dip for any blaster caster. Easy fix to make it still extremely powerful and top 3 dip but making it manageable: benefits lasts until the start of your next turn (so basically combo this with an AOE cast as an action) OR make it lasts until you cast a harmful spell (using the writing from Sanctuary) or spell that affects others (copying from Time Stop) AND make the benefit only affects creatures you're Hidden from (so you're planning the thing).
Level 6: keeps the feature strong, does not address the potential problems of falling off later (immunity to blindness).
Level 17: lets see: free Misty Step + free "Empty Body's resistance" for one minute? 20 HP regen is just a cherry on top of a gigantic cake. Since Cleric does not have that many offensive spells, it's probably not overpowered, but maybe I lack hindsight on this. At least more people may be motivated into staying Cleric at high levels with this. XD


>>> In games with no multiclassing, all these Domains can mostly be played as is, although a few grains of salt will be recommended.
There will be problems of some features being occasionally far too powerful for what they should be, but overall a reasonable DM should be able to anticipate and prevent.

With multiclassing...
This is "Theurge-like" level of brokenness.

[Speely]

I'm not sure that beautiful screams 'Potent Cantrips' to me. I'm not sure the radiating beauty should affect targets who can't even see you.

It's something I'd expect to see on D&Dwiki.

Mike Mearls proving yet again, he's an ideas guy (we have a word for those kind of Blue Sky, Out of the Box
Thankers, er Thinkers where we work) not a rules guy.

Oh I agree that it's a bit much, especially the parts you mentioned. I was just speaking from a player's "oooh gimme that" perspective. ;)

[brainface]

I love the beauty domain ability--especially if I'm reading it right in thinking it can affect the cleric themselves. ^^

It may be too disruptive as a short rest ability, it's more of an "end this fight, NOW" sort of thing.

[PeteNutButter]

Beauty domain looks like it was made to be played by “that guy.” Don’t be that guy. It’s Dungeons & Dragons not Dungeons & Dialogue. You had your social encounters in town. Let the barbarian and fighter do things now. Mechanically the level 1 and 6 features are so laughably poorly designed that they together are completely eclipsed by the inspiring leader feat in every way.

Destruction. Just lol. Maybe this is how they plan to make ranger level 6 viable... by ensuring every ranger dips their level 6 into this.

Darkness. So darkness + devil’s sight or greater invisibility make this a 2 level dip for max damage. Iol

[vicente408]

Keep in mind that these are all made specifically with Mearls’s home campaign in mind, so they aren’t balanced for general use. In follow up tweets Mike clarifies that he’s okay with using “OP” player material in his own sessions because he and his group can adapt well enough to not cause problems. And as far as a player being “that guy” or what have you, this is again made for one specific playgroup, so the player personalities and playstyles involved are all known quantities. He’s sharing this stuff purely because people were curious about his personal homebrew, which is quite distinct from official WotC published material or even UA.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Darkness and Destruction are over the top and i like it.

Edit: Mechanically still needs some fixes. I see some insane mcing. But man i would love a Shadow Sorcerer/ Shadow Monk/ Darkness Cleric. That would be fun.

[strangebloke]

snip

>>> In games with no multiclassing, all these Domains can mostly be played as is, although a few grains of salt will be recommended.
There will be problems of some features being occasionally far too powerful for what they should be, but overall a reasonable DM should be able to anticipate and prevent.

With multiclassing...
This is "Theurge-like" level of brokenness.

I mostly agree with you, however, I think that 'shield of ineffable darkness' is actually pretty great until blindsense becomes common, due to how it comboes with the whole package.

Like, you come into a fight with spiritual weapon and shadow spawn up. You lose initiative, take a hit, use the shield, all latter hits have disadvantage, and on your turn you hit him for

2d12(24) + 5 + 1d8(8) + 5 = 42 damage, in addition to all the defensive and offensive bonuses your team got.

Obviously, yeah, with multiclassing a two-level dip in this class gets insane. Lol Gloomstalker/Darkcleric. Or a Hexblade/Darkcleric.

[Blackbando]

Am I the only one disturbed by Beauty using Charisma for three of its features (albeit 6th just being an upgrade for 1st) despite cleric being a Wisdom caster? It disturbs me a lot; even if thematically it makes sense, I don't like making a decently MAD class even more MAD.

[xyianth]

So, I see some potential issues right away.

Beauty's channel divinity forces all creatures to make a save vs being charmed by all others that fail. Can you fail your own save or are you guaranteed to be the only creature that won't be viewed as an ally by your newly formed band of allies? I read this ability as a suicide option, am I missing something?

Darkness's shadow spawn ability is potentially too strong for a single classed cleric. (compare it to the tempest cleric for example) It is far too overpowered for multiclassing though, rogues would break it apart.

I'm also not a fan of giving another 1-level dip to get the hex spell, especially since this one would be on a wisdom requirement. The hex spell is intentionally strong as a 1st level spell because it was meant for the warlock's limited casting system. Given how popular it is to dip warlock even on non-charisma focused characters, I don't personally think adding this option would be healthy for the game, unless the goal is to make it easier for grappling monks to get one of the best support spells for grappling.

[MrStabby]

Am I the only one disturbed by Beauty using Charisma for three of its features (albeit 6th just being an upgrade for 1st) despite cleric being a Wisdom caster? It disturbs me a lot; even if thematically it makes sense, I don't like making a decently MAD class even more MAD.

It's not necessarily a bad idea. Clerics using strength to make attacks are MAD with two offensive stats. This is just the same with two mental stats. Well not the same, but similar principle. This isn't like the frenzy barbarian with special abilities keyed off strength, constitution, charisma and needing dex due to class features not working in heavy armour.

[Citan]

Am I the only one disturbed by Beauty using Charisma for three of its features (albeit 6th just being an upgrade for 1st) despite cleric being a Wisdom caster? It disturbs me a lot; even if thematically it makes sense, I don't like making a decently MAD class even more MAD.
I get what you mean but for me this is not a problem in design.
Clerics can do perfectly fine with only 14 DEX, dumped STR, and high WIS.
So you can really give some space for another mental stat.

I see sometimes (not really often, but not that rare either) Clerics keeping at least 14 CHA for Inspiring Leader so they less spend resources on Healing Words after that.

And with Clerics being conveyors of Gods's words, them being charismatic is pretty fitting thematically too. :)

[Astofel]

I find it strange that Destruction doesn't get heavy armour, since that pushes them towards being Dex-based and I have difficulty imagining someone who worships an incarnation of destruction whose weapon of choice is a rapier.

[NaughtyTiger]

Confidential information of Wizards of the Coast LLC. Do not distribute.

*giggle*


6 Beauty domain is stronger than my 14 Enchanter Wizard at enchanting. not happy.

But destruction! My half-orc cleric will wait a while.

No save on blinded. Ouch.

[jaappleton]

Let's make one thing clear: Destruction Domain has a clear as crystal Guns n Roses reference, and it is therefore perfect. I'll hear nothing else suggesting otherwise.

Beauty? I don't like its reliance on Wisdom AND Charisma. Not a fan of that. Maybe allow them to use Wisdom with Persuasion, Deception or Performance (your pick), and then go from there. But I don't mind the theme.

Darkness is far too potent, and I'm not talking about cantrips! Max damage when an enemy can't see you? So if I surprise an enemy at lv1, I'm doing 24 damage with Guiding Bolt? Nothing even comes close to that level of power. And a 2 level Warlock dip for Devil's Sight makes it unreal. Or even a Deep Stalker Ranger dip would push it toward insanity. As a single class only mindset? It's still a bit too much. Maybe add your additional damage equal to half your Cleric level? I don't know, but it's just too good as it is. I DO really like the spell list, though. Very nice.

Destruction... I think is the closest to readily playable. I like the capstone, I think it fits well without being OP (Roll twice the damage, take the highest rolled dice). Competes a bit with Tempest in that regard, as a blaster, but there's overlap in plenty of other archetypes already. I really like Appetite for Destruction, and the Channel Divinity is a bit strong, especially at low levels. But it's not totally out of line, there's a save to deal only half damage, it takes an action, and considering that, its fairly on par with Death's (The only one I can think of that provides an outright damage boost, aside from Tempest). I especially like how Sundering Invocation can be used on objects as well, giving it a great use for outside of combat (IMO, something of a rarity among Channel Divinities). Destructive Fury needs to be slightly reworked. As a single class, I think its fine, but there's too much MC abuse there. Maybe swap it to lv6? Still strong at that point, but if you invest 6 levels, I think you earned it.

[Citan]

I find it strange that Destruction doesn't get heavy armour, since that pushes them towards being Dex-based and I have difficulty imagining someone who worships an incarnation of destruction whose weapon of choice is a rapier.
Funny, it didn't strike me at all. I myself rather saw a Destruction Cleric as favoring raw magic to destroy things, hence using magic as directly as possible.

Of course from a mechanical point of view, the "push to-hit with a spell slot" gives a good motivation into going GWM... But you could view this in another way, as "you don't need that high an attack stat because your short-rest ability takes care of making you good enough in the first place" >>> 14 DEX for medium armor is enough. :)

[Tetrasodium]

Am I the only one disturbed by Beauty using Charisma for three of its features (albeit 6th just being an upgrade for 1st) despite cleric being a Wisdom caster? It disturbs me a lot; even if thematically it makes sense, I don't like making a decently MAD class even more MAD.

You are not alone. It is a cleric domain made for scorlocks who only need 13 wis. Charisma is already wildly elevated above the other 5 stats post xge, no cleric archetype has any reason to have so much focus on charisma.

It's a cleric devoted to beauty, let them add their wisdom to stuff charisma normally handles just like scorlockadins can add charisma to nearly everything.

I find it truly disturbing that wotc is still spit balling ways to further improve charisma.

[Tanngrisnr]

Folks, remember that this is NOT WotC official work. This is unearthed arcana's unearthed arcana. It's just Mike doing stuff for his home game.

[Daithi]

You are not alone. It is a cleric domain made for scorlocks who only need 13 wis. Charisma is already wildly elevated above the other 5 stats post xge, no cleric archetype has any reason to have so much focus on charisma.

It's a cleric devoted to beauty, let them add their wisdom to stuff charisma normally handles just like scorlockadins can add charisma to nearly everything.

I find it truly disturbing that wotc is still spit balling ways to further improve charisma.

Maybe a CHA based Beauty character would be a better fit? A Beauty Bard sounds logical, although they already have College of Glamour. However a Beauty Sorcerer, or the odd sounding Beauty Warlock might actually be even cooler.

Has he done the Moon Cleric yet? That one sounded pretty interesting.

[Chaosmancer]

So I keep checking those links and I can't find darkness anywhere. Did he delete it?

One thing I found interesting about the destruction domain channel divinity is that while you can spend spell slots, it isn't even worth it until you have 3rd or 4th level slots, unless I misread and the temp hp stacks instead of being replaced.

Though, I suppose using a long rest resource and a short rest resources to get +2 to hit and 8 temp hp for a fight isn't too insane on it's own. And it would max at 32 temp hp and +5 to hit if someone dropped a 9th level slot on it.

[Daithi]

So I keep checking those links and I can't find darkness anywhere. Did he delete it?

One thing I found interesting about the destruction domain channel divinity is that while you can spend spell slots, it isn't even worth it until you have 3rd or 4th level slots, unless I misread and the temp hp stacks instead of being replaced.

Though, I suppose using a long rest resource and a short rest resources to get +2 to hit and 8 temp hp for a fight isn't too insane on it's own. And it would max at 32 temp hp and +5 to hit if someone dropped a 9th level slot on it.

For me the links bring up the Beauty domain, and when I scroll down there is a post with the Destruction domain on the left and the Darkness domain on the right. When I click on the Darkness domain it brings it up on a separate page.

[Callin]

Human with Stalker Feat, Darkness Domain Wizard, Rogue 2.

Lots of Max Damage spells goin off haha.

[mgshamster]

Let's make one thing clear: Destruction Domain has a clear as crystal Guns n Roses reference, and it is therefore perfect. I'll hear nothing else suggesting otherwise.



I...

I don't understand why this is blue.

[Tetrasodium]

Maybe a CHA based Beauty character would be a better fit? A Beauty Bard sounds logical, although they already have College of Glamour. However a Beauty Sorcerer, or the odd sounding Beauty Warlock might actually be even cooler.

Has he done the Moon Cleric yet? That one sounded pretty interesting.

why? nobody at WotC spoke up loud enough when they made a charisma based melee character or started adding charisma to everything under the sun save for AC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23205657&postcount=68) do you honestly think that after XgE charisma is still not good enough? Given that the post of mine that you quoted mentions that and talks about how it should just use wisdom in place of charisma for certain stuff... I can't help but wonder what part you are trying to respond to Charisma has had too much love already, it does not need to be moving into the wheelhouse of classes not someone's special favorite.

[Daithi]

why? ... I can't help but wonder what part you are trying to respond to...

I see where you're coming from. I guess in my mind that a Beauty based character just seems like a direct fit to Charisma to me.

[Tetrasodium]

I see where you're coming from. I guess in my mind that a Beauty based character just seems like a direct fit to Charisma to me.

Look at PHB178

Charisma
Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality.
it has absolutely nothing to do with beauty. The other stats do not either


Wisdom
Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition.

Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason.

Constitution
Constitution measures health, stamina, and vital force.


[quote]Dexterity
Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.

Strength
Strength measures bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force.

You could just as easily say that constitution effects beauty so it makes sense for a healthy barbarian type (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNu_kqxqbew) to represent beauty. alternately you could say that obviously intelligence should dictate beauty since you need to be intelligent enough to understand how & when to apply cosmetic products or know the proper fashions. Nearly any stat can mean beauty. There is even multiple tropes (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FaceOfAnAngelMindOfADemon) about how beauty has nothing to do with charisma

Given that this is the second time Mearls has spitballed a beauty related archtype It's obviously something he wants... but enough with treating charisma like the lady in red (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO23WBji_Z0)

[Chaosmancer]

For me the links bring up the Beauty domain, and when I scroll down there is a post with the Destruction domain on the left and the Darkness domain on the right. When I click on the Darkness domain it brings it up on a separate page.

Huh, wonder if it is because of my phone. I can only see destruction in that post, nothing to either side

[Tetrasodium]

Look at PHB178

it has absolutely nothing to do with beauty. The other stats do not either



[quote]


You could just as easily say that constitution effects beauty so it makes sense for a healthy barbarian type (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNu_kqxqbew) to represent beauty. alternately you could say that obviously intelligence should dictate beauty since you need to be intelligent enough to understand how & when to apply cosmetic products or know the proper fashions. Nearly any stat can mean beauty. There is even multiple tropes (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FaceOfAnAngelMindOfADemon) about how beauty has nothing to do with charisma

Given that this is the second time Mearls has spitballed a beauty related archtype It's obviously something he wants... but enough with treating charisma like the lady in red (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO23WBji_Z0)


of course, dark willow (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsZyl5UOJ44) is yet another example of an int based beauty gone wild

[Clodix367]

Destruction plus 3 levels of Paladino is my dream right now