Lesser metamagic rod of persist?

[Yogibear41]

To my knowledge no metamagic rods of persist were ever made/printed in a book, but if one were, how much would they cost? Specifically for the lesser version, want to persist some buff spells on a Paladin without spending several feats on DMM Persist.

I figure they would probably be pretty pricey, even for the lesser version.

[Nifft]

To my knowledge no metamagic rods of persist were ever made/printed in a book, but if one were, how much would they cost? Specifically for the lesser version, want to persist some buff spells on a Paladin without spending several feats on DMM Persist.

I figure they would probably be pretty pricey, even for the lesser version.

The price for metamagic rods depends on the level adjustment of the metamagic feat.

The known prices are:

+1 -> 3k gp (lesser)

+2 -> 9k gp (lesser)

+3 -> 14k gp (lesser)

+4 -> 35k gp (lesser)


Persistent Spell is a +6 increase, so you'd need to work out the sequence and then use the value two higher.

[Mike Miller]

To my knowledge no metamagic rods of persist were ever made/printed in a book, but if one were, how much would they cost? Specifically for the lesser version, want to persist some buff spells on a Paladin without spending several feats on DMM Persist.

I figure they would probably be pretty pricey, even for the lesser version.

Personally, I would make it epic. I pretended it was a quadratic progression and calculated 110,000 gp and then pretended it was exponential using different values of the given info and calculated 180,000 gp with one set and 218,750 gp with a different set of points.

Given the potential for abuse, it would have to be very expensive. Wraithstrike alone breaks melee combat.

[AvatarVecna]

Here ya go! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rods/metamagic-rods/metamagic-persistent/) :smallwink::smalltongue:

[Caylin]

That is a way different version of persist though. Following the link leads to this description of persist:

Persistent Spell (Metamagic)

You can modify a spell to become more tenacious when its targets resist its effect.
Benefit: Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw.
Level Increase: +2 (a persistent spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.)
Spells that do not require a saving throw to resist or lessen the spell’s effect do not benefit from this feat.

[heavyfuel]

I really wonder what's the progression there. How did they arrive at these 3, 9, 14, and 35 k item values?

It seems completely arbitrary.


Here ya go! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rods/metamagic-rods/metamagic-persistent/) :smallwink::smalltongue:

I... don't think that's what he meant... I get it's a joke btw

[Arael666]

Here ya go! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rods/metamagic-rods/metamagic-persistent/) :smallwink::smalltongue:

Well thanks a lot, I said "what?!?" so loud I just woke up the baby

[AvatarVecna]

Well thanks a lot, I said "what?!?" so loud I just woke up the baby

I dunno what's so shocking, it seems reasonably priced to me. :smallbiggrin:

[SLOTHRPG95]

Personally, I would make it epic. I pretended it was a quadratic progression and calculated 110,000 gp and then pretended it was exponential using different values of the given info and calculated 180,000 gp with one set and 218,750 gp with a different set of points.

Given the potential for abuse, it would have to be very expensive. Wraithstrike alone breaks melee combat.

I agree that in a non-Epic campaign this would have the potential to be game-breaking, but then again that's my general opinion on the metamagic rods (and to a lesser extent, feats like Sudden Extend or Sudden Quicken). With that said, if a price had to be decided, I'd say at least twice the cost of a 10-foot pole, also known as the Rod of Mundane Wish, second only to a scroll of Prestidigitation. :smalltongue: In all seriousness, though, game-breaking potential has as much to do with player intent as it does individual mechanics, and I think around 200K for the Lesser version (and other versions not being available) would be reasonable.

[zlefin]

I really wonder what's the progression there. How did they arrive at these 3, 9, 14, and 35 k item values?

It seems completely arbitrary.


I don't see any math formula which would let those values make sense.

so it's probably an arbitrary ad-hoc system. as such they probably adjusted some of them just based on how good they felt they are (like the quicken one). or they made a typo and never corrected it.

in particular the lesser quicken rod is an outlier in terms of consistency.

I'd just redo the formula to something more consistent.
as to op:
as there's no formula they can't be priced according to such; so it'd depend whether you rely on a best match formula (there's a few different ways to get numbers for that, different assumptions would yield different values), or just ad-hoc'ed something.

[Nifft]

I don't see any math formula which would let those values make sense.

Hmm... maybe it's something about the max level slot that could be emulated, since you're restricted to level 3 spells as the base (3+1), (3+2), (3+3), (3+4) somehow?

Meh.

Let's look at Greater rod prices...


+1 -> 24.5k gp

+2 -> 73k gp

+3 -> 121.5k gp

+4 -> 170k gp


That gives 48.5 as the difference between each level of Greater Rod, so a Greater Metamagic Rod (Persist) would be 170k + (2 * 48.5k) = 267k gp

Perhaps the Lesser Rods follow a formula based on the Greater Rod prices, since the Greater Rod prices do follow a formula? But I can't see the Lesser Rod relationship yet.

[zlefin]

from my look at the math;
with the exception of the lesser quickness metamagic rod, which is a massive outlier, a bunch of ratios are otherwise consistent within a margin of error:
the ratio of costs for each grade of rod for a given metamagic; roughly being 1x, ~3.7, ~8.2 (maybe 3.6 and 8.1?)

the ratio of costs for different metamagics of a given grade: roughly being 1, 2.8, 4.8, 6.8
which is close to 1,3,5,7; but with some very slight reduction not accounted for.

aside from lesser quickness, every other value fits well within those ratios (with what looks to be a bit of rounding effects due to always wanting to be a multiple of 500, and it being a bit unclear what the actual base numbers are supposed to be)

following that, the lesser quicken rod should be ~ 20.5k rather than what it is.

[Mike Miller]

from my look at the math;
with the exception of the lesser quickness metamagic rod, which is a massive outlier, a bunch of ratios are otherwise consistent within a margin of error:
the ratio of costs for each grade of rod for a given metamagic; roughly being 1x, ~3.7, ~8.2 (maybe 3.6 and 8.1?)

the ratio of costs for different metamagics of a given grade: roughly being 1, 2.8, 4.8, 6.8
which is close to 1,3,5,7; but with some very slight reduction not accounted for.

aside from lesser quickness, every other value fits well within those ratios (with what looks to be a bit of rounding effects due to always wanting to be a multiple of 500, and it being a bit unclear what the actual base numbers are supposed to be)

following that, the lesser quicken rod should be ~ 20.5k rather than what it is.

Eh, then it is 33k for a lesser persist rod. That is definitely too cheap. I stand by my epic-only rating. 200,000+

[Zanos]

I dunno what's so shocking, it seems reasonably priced to me. :smallbiggrin:
Persistent spell is different in PF, it makes people roll twice against the spells save.

Still a steal at that price, I think.

[InterstellarPro]

A friend of mine included a metamagic rod of Persistent Spell (3 spells per day up to 6th level) as a minor artifact in his game. He made it available if the party could defeat the current wielder (who was a 12th level druid optimized to the max). They were 16th level before they finally beat her, and the prize was a magic item that can do much the same as DMM: Persistent Spell already does.

My advice, if you are having too much trouble coming up with a price, let the DM know that you are doing research to try to find one. Rather than purchase it, have your character quest for it. If you are the DM, have your player quest for it. It will be much better as a quest reward than as something they just buy anyway.

[ericgrau]

I did a curve fit and got roughly +5 => 90k gp and +6 => 200k gp. That seems close enough in terms of a pattern. But then the next question is whether that is a good price in terms of abuse potential.

[Jack_Simth]

The price for metamagic rods depends on the level adjustment of the metamagic feat.

The known prices are:

+1 -> 3k gp (lesser)

+2 -> 9k gp (lesser)

+3 -> 14k gp (lesser)

+4 -> 35k gp (lesser)


Persistent Spell is a +6 increase, so you'd need to work out the sequence and then use the value two higher.

The Lesser rods don't pattern well, but the regular and Major are linear as far as the published progression goes (+1 to +4).

Both Regular and Major metamagic rods can be expressed as A + B * (N-1) where N is the metamagic adjustment (1 or better), and A and B are constants (depending on which progression you're using - regular or Major)
The "regular" metamagic rods are 11,000 gp for a +1 adjustment, and another 21,500 gp for each +1 adjustment after that.
The Major metamagic rods are 24,500 gp for a +1 adjustment, and another 48,500 gp for each +1 adjustment after that.

Can't say the same for the lesser rods. I suspect it's mostly messed up for those because someone figured out that a "free" Quicken on low level spells was still really helpful - more so than Maximize and Empower on similarly-leveled spells, by a lot. If I ignore the Quicken entry, and shoehorn the lesser rods into the same basic pattern as the others, then I'm looking at an A of 3,000 gp, and a B of either 5,000 gp or 6,000 gp (or possibly somewhere between).