Turn Undead argument

[skunk3]

So I just got into an argument with my DM in a game I've been playing on Roll20 for the past 2 weeks.

I am playing a Cloistered Cleric, level 1. There was a room with a skeleton and a zombie in it. I thought to myself "no problem, let's melt these fools" because I have 14 turn attempts because I took Extra Turning twice, which is beside the point.

I have read and read the rules for turn undead and this is how I understand the mechanic to work:

1. I roll a d20+CHA to determine the maximum number of HD I can affect, which can be divided up amongst multiple targets if I so wish.

2. I then roll 2d6 + Cleric Level + CHA for damage. In this case I had a +3 modifier, which is 2d6 + 1 + 3.


The DM insists that the 'damage' is not really damage at all and that no matter what, I cannot actually kill the undead with turning unless I have Destroy Undead as a feature or domain ability. I say this is wrong. I say that if I do enough damage to destroy the target(s) either with one turn attempt or several, they are killed. He basically says that all I can do with Turn Undead is just make them flee/cower. I might be wrong but I don't think that's how it works in 3.5. I think that with Destroy Undead you don't even have to roll damage, they are just destroyed outright. With Turn Undead I CAN kill them in one turn if they are weak enough but otherwise I might have to turn more than once to finish them off. Also, it is my understanding that this damage is applied to each and every target that I select with my initial CHA check.


So who is right and who is wrong here? As a sidenote I should mention that the guy appears to be generally incompetent as a DM, at least for 3.5. I think he was a 2e player and lacks much experience / understanding of 3.5 but decided to run a game anyway. I decided to quit the game because he's very much one of those "my way or the highway" kinds of DM's, even when he's totally wrong and everyone knows it.

[Peelee]

The DM insists that the 'damage' is not really damage at all and that no matter what, I cannot actually kill the undead with turning unless I have Destroy Undead as a feature or domain ability. I say this is wrong. I say that if I do enough damage to destroy the target(s) either with one turn attempt or several, they are killed. He basically says that all I can do with Turn Undead is just make them flee/cower.
Good clerics and paladins and some neutral clerics can channel positive energy, which can halt, drive off (rout), or destroy undead. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm)

Rule zero exists, he can claim that in his games, turning can't destroy undead, and be perfectly happy with that. But if he wants to go by the book, you're right; if you can damage them enough to destroy them, then you can destroy them. Also, he seems to have some odd ideas... I've never heard someone gatekeep damage before.

Listen to other people, I ignored all the numbers.

[Manyasone]

First, the turning check to determine the most powerful undead you can affect. Second, turning damage. Which isn't damage, btw, it's too determine how many undead you can affect.
Third, only when you have twice as many HD/levels as the undead affected then they are instantly ashes... Or if you have greater turning for instance.
You're wrong in this matter, dude...
www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead

[Douglas]

Your DM is right.

The d20+CHA roll is not to determine how many total HD you can affect, but the highest amount of HD on a single monster that you can affect. Look up the result on the turning check table, and any monster that has more HD than that is completely immune.

The 2d6+level+CHA roll is called "turning damage", yes, but if you read the details it is actually what you thought the d20+CHA roll was - the total number of HD you can affect.

With regard to Destroy Undead, while there is a particular alternate class feature called that, it's usually a reference to one of the details of Turn Undead - any monster that you successfully turn that has half as many HD as your level or less is destroyed outright.

[skunk3]

I must have a brain malfunction or something. I just read the rules for Turn Undead again and this is what it says, more or less.

1. Roll d20 + CHA to determine the most powerful HD of undead you can affect.

2. Roll 2d6 + Cleric level + CHA to determine the total number of HD you can affect.

So I guess Turn Undead doesn't actually do any damage whatsoever to undead? It just makes it so they stay away as long as you keep more than 10' away and the rest of your party can murder them?

It also says that if you have 2x as many level as the undead have HD, you destroy them outright.

The way I've always understood how the mechanic works is like I mentioned in my original post. Now I feel like an idiot for rage quitting out of that campaign. (But this disagreement wasn't the only reason why I had issues with the game.)

[torrasque666]

So I just got into an argument with my DM in a game I've been playing on Roll20 for the past 2 weeks.

I am playing a Cloistered Cleric, level 1. There was a room with a skeleton and a zombie in it. I thought to myself "no problem, let's melt these fools" because I have 14 turn attempts because I took Extra Turning twice, which is beside the point.

I have read and read the rules for turn undead and this is how I understand the mechanic to work:

1. I roll a d20+CHA to determine the maximum number of HD I can affect, which can be divided up amongst multiple targets if I so wish. False: "This is a Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier). Table: Turning Undead gives you the Hit Dice of the most powerful undead you can affect, relative to your level. On a given turning attempt, you can turn no undead creature whose Hit Dice exceed the result on this table."


2. I then roll 2d6 + Cleric Level + CHA for damage. In this case I had a +3 modifier, which is 2d6 + 1 + 3. This is the total amount of HD you can turn, not actual damage. "If your roll on Table: Turning Undead is high enough to let you turn at least some of the undead within 60 feet, roll 2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier for turning damage. That’s how many total Hit Dice of undead you can turn."



The DM insists that the 'damage' is not really damage at all and that no matter what, I cannot actually kill the undead with turning unless I have Destroy Undead as a feature or domain ability. I say this is wrong. I say that if I do enough damage to destroy the target(s) either with one turn attempt or several, they are killed. He basically says that all I can do with Turn Undead is just make them flee/cower. I might be wrong but I don't think that's how it works in 3.5. I think that with Destroy Undead you don't even have to roll damage, they are just destroyed outright. With Turn Undead I CAN kill them in one turn if they are weak enough but otherwise I might have to turn more than once to finish them off. Also, it is my understanding that this damage is applied to each and every target that I select with my initial CHA check. Nope: "Destroying Undead: If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice, you destroy any that you would normally turn." So as a first level cleric you'd only be able to destroy undead with fractional hit die.



So who is right and who is wrong here? As a sidenote I should mention that the guy appears to be generally incompetent as a DM, at least for 3.5. I think he was a 2e player and lacks much experience / understanding of 3.5 but decided to run a game anyway. I decided to quit the game because he's very much one of those "my way or the highway" kinds of DM's, even when he's totally wrong and everyone knows it.
Your GM's right, you're wrong. Emphasis added.

EDIT: Swordsaged

[Rijan_Sai]

Actually, in this case, your DM is correct.
"Damage" is a bit of a misnomer;

Turning Checks

Turning undead is a supernatural ability that a character can perform as a standard action. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

You must present your holy symbol to turn undead. Turning is considered an attack.
Times per Day

You may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. You can increase this number by taking the Extra Turning feat.
Range

You turn the closest turnable undead first, and you can’t turn undead that are more than 60 feet away or that have total cover relative to you. You don’t need line of sight to a target, but you do need line of effect.
That' the basics, now for the important parts:

Turning Check

The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn. This is a Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier). Table: Turning Undead gives you the Hit Dice of the most powerful undead you can affect, relative to your level. On a given turning attempt, you can turn no undead creature whose Hit Dice exceed the result on this table.
This part tells you how powerful of undead you can turn, i.e. if you roll a turn check with a result of "6", you could (potentially) turn any nearby undead with up to 6 HD.


Turning Damage

If your roll on Table: Turning Undead is high enough to let you turn at least some of the undead within 60 feet, roll 2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier for turning damage. That’s how many total Hit Dice of undead you can turn.

If your Charisma score is average or low, it’s possible to roll fewer Hit Dice of undead turned than indicated on Table: Turning Undead.

You may skip over already turned undead that are still within range, so that you do not waste your turning capacity on them.
The "damage" roll tells you exactly the total number of HD you can turn.
*Arbitrary Numbers Warning*
Let's say there are 4 undead: one with 6HD, one with 5, and 2 with 3; you roll the turn check and get a result of "6," meaning you could turn the most powerful one in the room. You then roll the damage, and get a result of 5.
For this example: You 6HD 3HD 5HD 3HD
With this setup, you do not have enough damage to turn the 6HD, so it is skipped. It hits the 3HD next, turning that one; however, that uses up 3 out of your 5 "turn damage," so there is not enough left to affect either of the others.


Destroying Undead

If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice, you destroy any that you would normally turn.

Here's where the real confusion lies: IF you have 2x the HD as the undead, you destroy it. So, in the example above, using the same numbers, if your cleric level was 6 or higher, that 3HD undead you turned would be destroyed instead.

Unfortunately, as a 1st level cleric, there is no undead that you can destroy without the Sun Domain's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#sunDomain) Greater Turning or similar.

^^^
I figured I would be completely ninja'd before I was able to post this... I'm leaving it here anyway, because I already took the time to write it out! :smalltongue:

[skunk3]

Thanks guys. I feel like a total fool now. I even tried to send a message to the DM and apologize and admit that I was wrong but he already blocked me.

[Douglas]

So I guess Turn Undead doesn't actually do any damage whatsoever to undead? It just makes it so they stay away as long as you keep more than 10' away and the rest of your party can murder them?
Yep, it never does damage. It can have no effect, force them to flee, or (if they're much weaker than you) instantly destroy them, but that's all. The Sun domain special ability can change it to "no effect or instantly destroy", but that's limited to 1/day and still never does damage.

[ViperMagnum357]

There are a couple of ways to deal actual damage with turning attempts, like the positive energy burst from Radiant Servant of Pelor, but they pale in comparison to the instant death effects; especially with boosts to effective level and greater turning, from the Sun and Glory domains as well as the aforementioned PRC.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Since everyone's already pointed out where you erred, I'll just give you a pro-tip; turning, like everything else in this game, gradually becomes less and less usable unless you pour resources into it. I wouldn't expect it to function most of the time by level 7 in its unmodified form. Common wisdom around these parts is to find some other use for the turn resource; divine and domain feats being the go-to selections.

Cheers.

[skunk3]

Since everyone's already pointed out where you erred, I'll just give you a pro-tip; turning, like everything else in this game, gradually becomes less and less usable unless you pour resources into it. I wouldn't expect it to function most of the time by level 7 in its unmodified form. Common wisdom around these parts is to find some other use for the turn resource; divine and domain feats being the go-to selections.

Cheers.

Yeah, I was planning on going with Divine Metamagic, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Quicken Spell, Reach Spell, etc. Primarily planned on being a buffer but also martial if I had to. That will be for another day though.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, I was planning on going with Divine Metamagic, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Quicken Spell, Reach Spell, etc. Primarily planned on being a buffer but also martial if I had to. That will be for another day though.

That's gonna be a ton of feats, since you have to take DMM for each Metamagic feat you want to use it with.

[16bearswutIdo]

As a sidenote I should mention that the guy appears to be generally incompetent as a DM, at least for 3.5. I think he was a 2e player and lacks much experience / understanding of 3.5 but decided to run a game anyway. I decided to quit the game because he's very much one of those "my way or the highway" kinds of DM's, even when he's totally wrong and everyone knows it.

This is kind of ironic, in retrospect.

[skunk3]

This is kind of ironic, in retrospect.

It is still accurate though. And thanks for the 'not an insult yet still totally an insult' comment. The guy was wrong about a bunch of other stuff.