How to play a Swordsage

[MrSandman]

Hi there. I've been looking over the class Swordsage, and I'm considering giving it a go. The thing is that I've hardly ever played a martial class, and I know very little about combat manoeuvres, so I'd like to ask the forum for some advice about playing it. I'm not asking for an optimisation guide (though I'll gladly read it if you want to write it or give me a link to one), just general advice on feats and manoeuvres that are interesting, pitfalls that I should avoid, and strengths and weaknesses.

[BowStreetRunner]

One thing to keep in mind is that, unlike spell casters, martial adepts don't suffer as much when giving up a level in their class. Every level you take in every other class counts as 1/2 level for your martial adept. So multi-classing is eminently possible, and in many cases desirable depending upon your build goals.

Swordsages can be a little Multiple Ability score Dependent (MAD). One way to reduce this is with the feats Weapon Finesse (Dex to attack instead of Str) and Shadow Blade (Dex to damage instead of Str). You can then get by without needing to pay too much attention to Strength.

There is an Adaptation section on page 20 that is worth noting. It suggests switching out the Swordsage's light armor proficiency for the Monk's unarmed strike progression. You may want to discuss this with your DM. There are a lot of interesting Unarmed Swordsage builds out there worth considering. Whether you take this or not, you should still discuss the Swordsage's AC bonus with your DM. The ability states that it only works in light armor. Note that it doesn't say 'up to' light armor, or light armor 'or less'. Many DMs assume this is an error and it was intended for anything up to light armor. But it's important to know where your DM stands on this specifically.

[Fouredged Sword]

You want to take the adaptive style feat. Without it your maneuver recovery method goes from bad to awful.

Now, swordsages get lots of maneuvers, but can rarely recover them in combat unlike a swordsage or warblade. You need to select multiple good strikes if you want to use strikes.

If you are just getting into martial maneuvers I woukd consider warblade to be a more newbie friendly class. Less MAD, and the recovery method means you just need 1-2 good strikes and can use your boosts counters more than 1/ encounter.

Full bab and d12 HD also help on a class that is intended to hit things in melee.

[DeTess]

You should note that most of the maneuver schools key of a particular skill. Diamond mind uses concentration a lot, tiger claw uses jump, etc. Not every school uses their key ability to the same extend, but it might be a good idea to do a bit of planning in advance with respect the the maneuver schools you want to be using. It'd be a shame if you're already several level in when you realise that the cool tiger claw maneuver you wanted to sue really demands a good jump modifier, and you dumped strength and didn't invest any points in jump.

You should also note that many higher-level maneuvers require you to know a couple of lower-level maneuvers of the same school. Swordsage gets enough maneuvers that you can specialize into several schools, but it still requires a bit of planning.

Lastly, you need to keep in mind that you can use maneuvers out-of-combat. Several schools have maneuvers that are great for utility (such as the 1-round invisibility and teleport maneuvers from shadow-hand, or the door-breaking strike from Stone dragon).

[rrwoods]

Easy gotcha: Don't miss the first-level maneuver Clinging Shadow Strike. The short description on the summary page completely leaves out the +1d6 damage you get on a hit. It's one of the few sources of bonus damage you can get at level 1 as a Swordsage, and the book misleading us here is unfortunate.

[Eldariel]

Swordsages are rather versatile, being able to learn a ton of maneuvers. Maneuvers define their combat style, but they can pretty much do anything from skirmishing to AOEing. Hell, they even make decent archers if you have few specific maneuvers and the bow proficiency. So it really comes down to what you pick for maneuvers.

[ben-zayb]

One pitfall that I see too often is someone looking at Setting Sun's fluff and thinking of it as "skill over size", only to find out that a Setting Sun maneuver doesn't work the way they think it does.

[Darrin]

You have some decisions to make:

1) Decide if you want to be Strength-focused or Dexterity-focused. This will likely be tied into which Discipline Focus you select. If you're going two-handed (that is, Strength-focused), then Stone Dragon gets you WF: greatsword, Tiger Claw gets you WF: greataxe, and if you want something more crit-focused, Desert Wind for WF: falchion. If you're going Dex-focused, then select Shadow Hand for the synergy with the Shadow Blade feat.

2) Decide when you want to take Adaptive Style. The Swordsage recovery method stinks, so you'll need this feat tax to recover your maneuvers in longer battles. You might think you need to take this feat ASAP, but at low levels combat tends to be short enough that most Swordsages don't run out of maneuvers. So you may be tempted to wait until 3rd, but that's your first opportunity to take Weapon Finesse if you're Dex-based. If your DM is amenable to making feycraft weapons (DMGII) available at lower levels, you can put off Weapon Finesse (or just skip it). If you have to wait until 6th level to take Adaptive Style, then you'll be fine. After 6th... running out of maneuvers will be excruciatingly tedious.

Advice on 1st-level Stances:

Flame's Blessing (DW): This stance is situational, but resistance (and eventually immunity) to fire damage can be *really* useful in certain situations. You're going to max out Tumble (because why wouldn't you?), so consider this for your 2nd stance pick.

Stance of Clarity (DM): If your DM likes to fill the battlefield with minions, cannon fodder, and ranged skirmishers, avoid this one. If your DM likes solo boss fights and toe-to-toe melee slugfests, then this could be a strong pick.

Step of the Wind (SS): Skip it. Most DMs never remember to differentiate the terrain on the battlefield. However, if you've got a spellcaster that likes to throw down BFC spells (grease, ice slick, impeding stones, sleet storm, etc.), then this might be worth considering as a 2nd stance pick.

Child of Shadow (SH): Good when paired with Travel Devotion and/or you want to focus on scouting/sneaking/skirmishing. Might be a good 2nd stance pick if you went with a two-handed weapon, at least until you get BAB +6. If you went with TWF style, then skip it.

Island of Blades (SH): My favorite stance, and should be your 1st pick if you're going with Shadow Blade or TWF style. If you've got a rogue in the party, will also be his favorite stance.

Stonefoot Stance (SD): Might be useful if you picked a small race, such as Whisper Gnome or Strongheart Halfing, but even then... meh. I've never bothered to take this one.

Blood in the Water (TC): Popular with crit-fishing builds, but I *hate* taking feats that only work on a crit. I'd rather have something that works every turn.

Hunter's Sense (TC): I've seen a lot of recommendations for this stance because it's a low-level counter for invisibility and good for utility, but... most animals get scent, and a guard dog is cheap: 25 GP. A mule/donkey is even cheaper: 8 GP. Torch Bug Paste (Complete Scoundrel) is also cheap: 25 GP. If you need a prereq to grab Sudden Leap and don't want to take Wolf Fang Strike (although why wouldn't you?), then it's not bad for a 2nd stance pick.

Advice on 1st-level Maneuvers:

Burning Blade (DW): Great boost for TWFing. It also scales up as your IL increases, so it stays useful as you get up into mid-levels.

Distracting Ember (DW): Decent pick for a TWFer, as you want to be boost-heavy, but probably skippable for a two-hander.

Wind Stride (DW): Situationally useful, but I usually skip it. Might be worth it on a two-hander, as it increases your charge distance.

Moment of Perfect Mind (DM): Not quite the "MUST HAVE" for Swordsages as it is for the front-line meatbags, as Swordsages have a good Will save and tend to have decent Wis scores. However, blowing a Will save usually means you're completely removed from combat (paralysis, charm, dominate, daze effects). If you're TWFing, grab it as a counter since full attacking usually means fewer standard-action strikes.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM): Decent 1st-level strike, although usually not my first pick, unless you're mixing in some sneak attack from somewhere.

Counter Charge (SS): I'm not a big fan of Setting Sun, so I hardly ever take this. Also, not very useful if your enemies never bother to charge you, so it's somewhat DM-dependent. Anyway, I usually skip this one.

Mighty Throw (SS): This is sort of a variation on Improved Trip (but without the free attack). If you're making a trip-focused Swordsage, or your build is designed around all the various "Throw" maneuvers, then this is where you start, but I'm usually too busy trying to do something else with my maneuvers. That being said, tripping is one of the easier and most effective melee debuffs, so if you've got room for it, it's a nice option to have available.

Clinging Shadow Strike (SH): Meh. There are plenty of other ways to get concealment.

Shadow Blade Technique (SH): Great strike for crit-fishing, as you get two chances to roll a crit. Also has the possibility to do 1d6 cold damage, which is useful against DR or fire-subtypes. If you're looking for a standard-action strike but aren't sure what to take, start with this one.

Charging Minotaur (SD): Combines a charge, bull rush, and a little bit of damage, so may be a decent pick if you're looking for something interesting to do on the first round of combat. Also may come in handy if an enemy is standing next to a terrain feature that you can shove them into, such as pits, wall of smoke, web, entangle, etc.

Stone Bones (SD): At 1st level, DR 5/adamantine turns you into a damage-soaking tank for a round. As you gain levels... it's less impressive. Good pick for two-handers with less than BAB +6, but avoid it if you're TWFing.

Sudden Leap (TC): Swift-action movement. GET THIS. You need a prereq for it, so grab Hunter's Sense or Wolf Fang Strike first.

Wolf Fang Strike (TC): Essentially "TWF as a standard action", but there are some quirks to it. Notably, the -2 penalty *replaces* the standard TWF penalty, so you can use one or two non-light weapons without incurring a larger penalty. If you are two-handing or for some reason don't have a second weapon, buy some armor spikes for 50 GP. IUS can also be purchased from at least three different magic items: Bracers of Striking (1310 GP, Magic of Faerun), Ring of Might (4000 GP, Magic of Faerun), or Fanged Ring (10000 GP, Dragon Magic).

Skills:

Put 5 ranks in Balance, max out Concentration, Jump, Listen, and Tumble. If you're going to be doing any sneaking/scouting, then put some ranks in Hide/Move Silently, but those may not be all that necessary. After that... put what's left into Sense Motive.

Tactics:

Your biggest strengths are versatility and flexibility, and your primary combat role is usually "Support" or some variation of "Striker". You could also describe your role as a "Chaos Muppet". If you're two-handing, then your primary job is to move into the best position where you can create the most amount of trouble for your enemies, whether that's with damage, bull-rushing, tripping, or flanking. If you're TWFing, then you want to keep to the edges or focus on stragglers. Pair up with a frontline meatbag to provide flanking and debuffs for him/her. You also pair up well with a rogue. Outside of combat, you've got enough skill points to do some sneaking, scouting, or other skillmonkey stuff.

Pitfalls:

Of the three martial adepts, Swordsages are probably the trickiest to play well because with so many options to choose from, it's more likely that you'll pick some that don't work well together or don't work well with the role you're trying to fill. Crusaders and Warblades have fewer options to worry about and a higher "optimization floor" (harder to screw up). Keep in mind that at 4th level and every even level after that, you get one new maneuver and can swap out an old one, which means you essentially get two new maneuvers every other level. So if you made a bad pick or you've got a maneuver you never use, you can swap it out. If something is working well for you, don't be afraid to hold on to lower-level maneuvers, particularly if they are scaling well. If you're not sure if a maneuver is going to be useful to you, track down a martial script or a Novice Crown of the White Raven (there's a magic item for each discipline) to try it out first. Swordsages are also more "squishy" and MAD than Crusader/Warblade, so there's not as much room for error when you wind up getting smacked with a big crit or in the middle of a DPS-dogpile. Have an "escape plan" for those moments when you bite off more than you can chew or Lady Luck gives you the stinky finger of fustercluck.

[Sleven]

As someone who's played swordsage in a number of campaigns, there's a few things you have to decide:
1) Mostly swordsage or multiclass swordsage
(Swordsages, like other martial initiators handle multiclassing very well, while still retaining their identity as initiators.)
2) Party role
(Their maneuvers mostly support tactical play. Their maneuver selection is best at: battlefield control, stealth/evasion, and damage. They get great action economy and mobility from almost anything they choose to specialize in, sans Stone Dragon.)

These decisions will determine your primary disciplines.
(Generally speaking: Setting Sun for battlefield control, Shadow Hand for stealth, and Tiger Claw or Diamond Mind for damage. As you get more familiar with the maneuvers lists, you'll realize that these aren't necessarily set in stone. Pulling from specific maneuvers from multiple lists can give you more control, mobility, or damage.)

Something of note: a swordsage will almost always grab a number of Diamond Mind maneuvers (regardless of what they choose as a primary discipline). This is because it's incredibly useful for action economy, though Setting Sun and Tiger Claw can compensate in some areas quite well. The big Diamond Mind maneuvers are: Quicksilver Motion and Stance of Alacrity.


Step of the Wind (SS): Skip it. Most DMs never remember to differentiate the terrain on the battlefield. However, if you've got a spellcaster that likes to throw down BFC spells (grease, ice slick, impeding stones, sleet storm, etc.), then this might be worth considering as a 2nd stance pick.
a Will save usually means you're completely removed from combat (paralysis, charm, dominate, daze effects). If you're TWFing, grab it as a counter since full attacking usually means fewer standard-action strikes.

I couldn't disagree with this more. Not only are our DMs radically different, but even if your DM (or wizard) isn't controlling the terrain you should be. There are a great number of inexpensive magic and mundane items capable of creating unfavorable terrain for your enemies. This stance gives you further bonuses for doing this.


Tactics:

Your biggest strengths are versatility and flexibility, and your primary combat role is usually "Support" or some variation of "Striker". You could also describe your role as a "Chaos Muppet". If you're two-handing, then your primary job is to move into the best position where you can create the most amount of trouble for your enemies, whether that's with damage, bull-rushing, tripping, or flanking. If you're TWFing, then you want to keep to the edges or focus on stragglers. Pair up with a frontline meatbag to provide flanking and debuffs for him/her. You also pair up well with a rogue. Outside of combat, you've got enough skill points to do some sneaking, scouting, or other skillmonkey stuff.

Don't forget battlefield control. Setting Sun often gets overlooked. Which is unfortunate, considering its the best discipline at battlefield control. Particularly when you're working together with a spellcaster. Even if not, you can use it to reposition enemies and allies. With the right feats, it can also make you into a serviceable DPS (remember that all of the throw maneuvers are considered trip attempts, which allows you to follow up with an attack using Improved Trip).


EDIT:

Here's a modified version of a multiclass swordsage build stub I've used in actual play:
Half-Giant Monk 4/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Psionic Fist 10/Master of Nine 4
Mix and match the Psionic Fist levels with Master of Nine as desired/needed. I distinctly remember taking Psychic Renewal and using a gratuitous amount of Monk ACFs. I also recall Psy-reforming at various points in the campaign to switch my feats, powers, skills, and maneuvers between grappling, tripping, and massive damage via Beast Strike + Claws of the Beast.
Of course, if your DM enforces multiclass penalties you could always pick a different starting race and/or do a 3/3 split between swordsage and monk.

Totemist / Swordsage / Bloodclaw Master can be pretty good as well.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Don't buy the hype, adaptive style's nice but it's hardly necessary. You get plenty of maneuvers readied to have one in most combat rounds unless you load up on mostly counters. It would be a rare occasion indeed for adaptive style to net you more than one extra maneuver in a given combat and that's no better than the default refresh mechanic.

If your GM really likes marathon combats, definitely grab it. If he doesn't, only consider it if you've got a spare feat and no better ideas.

[MrSandman]

Thanks a lot for your input guys. I've got one more question, though. Manoeuvres need to be readied before I can use them, right? How do I ready them? Do I need to ready specific manoeuvres? Can I use a readied manoeuvre more than once (as long as I've got readied manoeuvres left) or do I need to ready multiple instances of the same manoeuvre if I want to do that?

[Darrin]

Thanks a lot for your input guys. I've got one more question, though. Manoeuvres need to be readied before I can use them, right? How do I ready them?


ToB p. 38:

"To ready maneuvers, you require a brief period of practice, exercise, meditation, or prayer. The exact nature of the exercise or meditation depends on your martial adept class, but each class requires 5 minutes of preparation time."

Maneuvers Known and Maneuvers Readied are tracked separately, and are listed on Table 1-2: The Swordsage. A 1st-level Swordsage knows 6 maneuvers and can ready 4 of them before combat. Presumably, you do this at the start of each day, but you can ready a new set of maneuvers whenever you have 5 minutes to meditate.



Do I need to ready specific manoeuvres?


Yes. It helps if you print out the maneuver cards (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) from the WotC archive. Swordsages and Warblades select which maneuvers they want to ready. Crusaders use a different, more random mechanic.



Can I use a readied manoeuvre more than once (as long as I've got readied manoeuvres left) or do I need to ready multiple instances of the same manoeuvre if I want to do that?

Once a maneuver has been used, it's considered "expended" and is no longer available until you recover it. You cannot ready multiple "copies" of a maneuver. Stances are not readied, and can be used or switched throughout the entire encounter.

Swordsages can recover a single expended maneuver, making it "readied" and available to use again, by spending a full-round action to meditate. If you have the Adaptive Style feat, you can recover *all* of your expended maneuvers by spending a full-round action. You can also change which maneuvers you readied, in case you started the battle with maneuvers that aren't effective against your current opponent.

[torrasque666]

Thanks a lot for your input guys. I've got one more question, though. Manoeuvres need to be readied before I can use them, right? How do I ready them? Do I need to ready specific manoeuvres? Can I use a readied manoeuvre more than once (as long as I've got readied manoeuvres left) or do I need to ready multiple instances of the same manoeuvre if I want to do that?
In order:
Correct
Takes 5 minutes by doing some way of focusing yourself (practice, exercise, meditation, prayer, etc)
You ready specific maneuvers, and can't leave slots unreadied
You can only use a readied maneuver once, and can't ready the same maneuver multiple times.


Each class recovers maneuvers differently. Crusaders get their maneuvers randomly from their readied maneuvers, Warblades recover all their maneuvers at once by using a swift action and a standard action. Swordsages recover one at a time by taking a full-round action. So it usually doesn't impact you that you can only use a maneuver once before having to recover it, since unlike spells if the encounter goes on long enough you can just keep recovering your maneuvers.

[AnimeTheCat]

Thanks a lot for your input guys. I've got one more question, though. Manoeuvres need to be readied before I can use them, right? How do I ready them? Do I need to ready specific manoeuvres? Can I use a readied manoeuvre more than once (as long as I've got readied manoeuvres left) or do I need to ready multiple instances of the same manoeuvre if I want to do that?

Page 15 has you covered with the "Maneuvers Readied" paragraph.

- It takes 5 minutes of meditation to ready your maneuvers.
- During that 5 minute meditation you determine the specific maneuvers you have readied up to a maximum indicated on the Swordsage Class Table (4 at level 1).
- You may only ready a maneuver once, meaning you couldn't have burning blade readied 4 times at level 1, you would have 4 different maneuvers readied.
-- Subsequent to this is what everyone is talking about with the "Recover" action that a swordsage needs to use to recover expended maneuvers. I'll talk about this below.

Maneuvers work similar to magic, but different. While Magic is a "Per Day" resource, Maneuvers are a "Per Encounter" resource with an in-combat "Recovery" mechanic. For example, If I have a level 1 swordsage, I know 6 maneuvers and I can ready 4. I chose Burning Blade, Blistering Flourish, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Clinging Shadow Strike, and Sudden Leap as my maneuvers known. When my character wakes up for the day I take 5 minutes to meditate and I ready my 4 maneuvers. This is similar to a wizard preparing spells for the day, except I can change my readied maneuvers at any point in the day with 5 minutes of meditation. I chose Burning Blade, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Clinging Shadow Strike, and Sudden Leap as my readied maneuvers. Readied Maneuvers are the only ones that you may use in combat, just like prepared spells are the only one a Wizard can use.

While adventuring, my party comes across a group of 5 goblins. On my turn I choose to use Sudden Leap to jump next to one of the goblins and then use Burning Blade to deal extra damage and take it out on that round of combat. At that point, I have use 2 of my 4 readied maneuvers and they are no longer available for use. I can only use Sapphire Nightmare Blade and Clinging Shadow Strike during this encounter, unless I recover my expended maneuvers using the unique Swordsage Recovery action. The Swordsage's Recovery action is taking a full-round action to do nothing but re-center yourself. After this full-round action, you select a single maneuver that you have expended and return it to your list of maneuvers readied.

My suggestion for keeping track of this is to write down your maneuvers known on individual notecards with all of the descriptive information from the book. This lets you make a "deck" of maneuvers readied that you can "discard" or "pick up" when you expend or recover the maneuver. Treat it like a hand of playing cards, you start with all of your cards in your hand, when you expend a maneuver you discard it, and when you perform your recovery action you pick up a single card.

[Efrate]

I would advise against 2H swordsage. It can work but you don't get a lot of support other than sudden leap for it. 2H wants to full attack not use maneuvers which are standard actions. Go warblade or crusader for that.

Sudden leap is fine but I find myself not needing it unless I am dipping for something that wants full attack, like totemist or twf rogue.

Most initiators operate on using standard action instead of full attack for generally comparable damage (to a full attack) barring uberchargers and the like. It fixes the full attack problem by being move and standard almost always. If you use a lot of full round action strikes (desert sun has a fair few) it's fine but offensively I would most often rather have another damaging strike because your recovery method stinks. Defensively it can be nice but you don't need it early. My 2 cp.

[Eldariel]

Eh, 2WF SS has Shadow Blade and uses boosts, counters and full attack manoeuvres. With Tiger Claw and Desert Wind and certain picks from others (Barbarian 1 for Pounce makes Bounding Assault from Diamond Mind great), it's more than fine and TWF has great synergy with Insightful Strike + full attack manoeuvres too.

[Fouredged Sword]

You can also go into a twfibg crit fisher with keen 18-20 weapons and blood in the water. It's a solid build, but normally something a warblade is better suited for.

[MrSandman]

Thanks a lot, y'all, for your help.^^