Moon Druid Level 5 spells in combat - Meh?

[nickl_2000]

So I just reached level 9 as a Moon Druid, and am excited about CR3 shapes (and elemental forms in another level). However, I feel pretty meh about the combat implications of level 5 druid spells for a Moon Druid. Is there something I'm missing, or is it kind of underwhelming in combat?

Now out of combat seems pretty cool, reincarnate, scrying, greater restoration, commune with nature, awaken (when I have the cash)...

[hymer]

Have you tried upcasting Conjure Animals? That should be worth a fifth level slot. Other than that it does get pretty situational. You probably won't like Antilife Shell as a moonie, but it can be quite good if you work well with your party.

[sithlordnergal]

Yeah, most of the 5th level spells you get as a Druid aren't very useful in combat. However, there are a few good ones that you should always consider having. You just need to be a bit creative with your uses:

1) Contagion. Now, the first thing you need to realize about this spell is that when you cast it, you are not casting it to gain the effects of whatever sickness you chose. Sure you always hope that the target fails three saves, but I find this spell is better used to burn through legendary saves. Most boss monsters with legendary saving throws only have 3 of those, and I can assure you the DM will want to use those legendary saves on Contagion. And since just about everything but paladins and monks can get sick, nothing will resist it.

2) Wall of Stone. A really good defensive spell, and one that will let you easily control the battlefield. If you don't want to deal with one of the big, bad enemies, just wall them off.

3) Conjure Elemental and Planar Binding. If you can cast these before the adventure day starts, then you should be good to go

Other then that, you can always upcast your combat spells like Blight, Conjure Animals, or Moonbeam.

[MaxWilson]

So I just reached level 9 as a Moon Druid, and am excited about CR3 shapes (and elemental forms in another level). However, I feel pretty meh about the combat implications of level 5 druid spells for a Moon Druid. Is there something I'm missing, or is it kind of underwhelming in combat?

Now out of combat seems pretty cool, reincarnate, scrying, greater restoration, commune with nature, awaken (when I have the cash)...

What kind of expectations do you have? Moon Druids are great at summoning and area control (Wrath of Nature, Plant Growth, Speak With Plants, Spike Growth); they're kind of rubbish at direct-damage evocations. Their biggest vulnerabilities IMO are that most of their good spells require concentration, and that they don't have much that can hurt enemies at long range, but that's common to all of the 5E spellcasters really (long-range combat is the province of weapons and the occasional specialized Warlock).

It seems likely that you're just overlooking the awesomeness that is combat summoning, but if you spoke in more detail about what you find cool maybe we could suggest some options for you.

Also be sure to consult something like this for ideas: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545558-5e-Druid-Handbook-Dreams-Land-Moon-and-Shepherd&p=22693950#post22693950

[nickl_2000]

What kind of expectations do you have? Moon Druids are great at summoning and area control (Wrath of Nature, Plant Growth, Speak With Plants, Spike Growth); they're kind of rubbish at direct-damage evocations. Their biggest vulnerabilities IMO are that most of their good spells require concentration, and that they don't have much that can hurt enemies at long range, but that's common to all of the 5E spellcasters really (long-range combat is the province of weapons and the occasional specialized Warlock).

It seems likely that you're just overlooking the awesomeness that is combat summoning, but if you spoke in more detail about what you find cool maybe we could suggest some options for you.

Also be sure to consult something like this for ideas: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545558-5e-Druid-Handbook-Dreams-Land-Moon-and-Shepherd&p=22693950#post22693950

I have looked at that in depth and have tried to figure out what to do. Yes, as a minionmancer I've been very effective, but I am a little leery of losing concentration on an elemental and having to fight them. I don't have the cash sitting around spare for planar binding, especially when it only lasts one day. I plan on upcasting that later on when it will be more bang for the buck.

I've used level 3 and level 4 summons very effectively, but level 5 seems meh in comparison (and dangerous).

I like battlefield control, but didn't see a whole lot of that. Wraith of Nature was one of them, the other was Maelstrom. Maelstrom was good, but I was trying to figure out if there was something I was missing in the others. Wall of stone is one that I'm going to have prepared, but busting through it would be pretty easy (plus we are fighting giant who may be able to just step over it).

[leogobsin]

I like battlefield control, but didn't see a whole lot of that. Wraith of Nature was one of them, the other was Maelstrom. Maelstrom was good, but I was trying to figure out if there was something I was missing in the others. Wall of stone is one that I'm going to have prepared, but busting through it would be pretty easy (plus we are fighting giant who may be able to just step over it).

Keep in mind, Wall of Stone is 30 HP per inch of thickness. I wouldn't exactly call 180 HP and AC 15 easy to bust through. And for giants it should work fine to stack the panels 2 high, giving you a 20 foot high wall (at the cost of either reduced thickness or length).

[nickl_2000]

Keep in mind, Wall of Stone is 30 HP per inch of thickness. I wouldn't exactly call 180 HP and AC 15 easy to bust through. And for giants it should work fine to stack the panels 2 high, giving you a 20 foot high wall (at the cost of either reduced thickness or length).

Okay, misread that. Thanks for the correction

[MaxWilson]

I have looked at that in depth and have tried to figure out what to do. Yes, as a minionmancer I've been very effective, but I am a little leery of losing concentration on an elemental and having to fight them. I don't have the cash sitting around spare for planar binding, especially when it only lasts one day. I plan on upcasting that later on when it will be more bang for the buck.

I've used level 3 and level 4 summons very effectively, but level 5 seems meh in comparison (and dangerous).

Conjure Animals V gets you twice as many animals as Conjure Animals III, which means you're getting something like 3x to 4x the combat effectiveness. Conjure Animals V is pretty great.

[nickl_2000]

Conjure Animals V gets you twice as many animals as Conjure Animals III, which means you're getting something like 3x to 4x the combat effectiveness. Conjure Animals V is pretty great.

Right, my original post was trying to figure out if I was missing something from the actual level 5 spells. I was planning on upcasting otherwise. I have no qualms with more damage from conjure lighting or more critters on the field

[Beechgnome]

It is super niche but if you Anti-life Shell and then transform into a Huge creature like an Ankylosaurus or Whale, you can act as a wall blocking your nine squares plus a 10 foot radius around you. For when you need to cover a retreat or are facing a hoard of melee (non undead/construct) baddies.

[KorvinStarmast]

Call lightning (if the room allows)

If you worry about getting hit and conc saves, Wild Shape into something with lots of HP or a high AC, or with a way to hide better ... At CR 3 Challenge 3 (700 XP) Ankylosaurus is a nice HP sump.

Against melee swarms, where ranged/spell attackers aren't a big deal, wild shape into Giant Eagle and fly above the battle, lightning rain down on them ... 3d10 strikes, or at level 5 5d10 strikes for ten rounds.

[nickl_2000]

It is super niche but if you Anti-life Shell and then transform into a Huge creature like an Ankylosaurus or Whale, you can act as a wall blocking your nine squares plus a 10 foot radius around you. For when you need to cover a retreat or are facing a hoard of melee (non undead/construct) baddies.

Thats an interesting use and absolutely the kind of thing I was thinking about. You could easily cut a group in half.

Also, I didn't think about it, but if I could get a 10 foot reach I can attack without fear of melee reprisal.

[MaxWilson]

Thats an interesting use and absolutely the kind of thing I was thinking about. You could easily cut a group in half.

Also, I didn't think about it, but if I could get a 10 foot reach I can attack without fear of melee reprisal.

Awaken obviously has potential combat uses too (T-Rex minion), Mass Cure Wounds could potentially be useful for getting your party back on their feet after an AoE (like bunch of Banshee wails), Wall of Stone is sometimes useful for dividing and conquering the enemy, Wrath of Nature is pretty good for control + damage, Transmute Rock to Mud is an excellent control spell on rocky ground against melee ground pounders, Conjure Elemental summons a meatshield with limited AoE capabilities, Insect Plague slows and damages enemies, Antilife Shell makes you immune to most natural creatures.

(Antilife Shell is useful against almost everything that Heat Metal is not useful against.)

But Conjure Animals V would be my go-to spell because it's just that good. Of the above spells, only Transmute Rock to Mud, Mass Cure Wounds, and Awaken do not compete with Conjure Animals for concentration.

[Beechgnome]

I would also just say that Wrath of Nature (a 5th level) plus bonus action wild shape sets you up pretty well... Lots of debuffs to go with your attacks.

[JackPhoenix]

1) Contagion. Now, the first thing you need to realize about this spell is that when you cast it, you are not casting it to gain the effects of whatever sickness you chose. Sure you always hope that the target fails three saves, but I find this spell is better used to burn through legendary saves. Most boss monsters with legendary saving throws only have 3 of those, and I can assure you the DM will want to use those legendary saves on Contagion. And since just about everything but paladins and monks can get sick, nothing will resist it.

Every time I see this sort of advice, I wonder: do people understand how Legendary Resistance works? It doesn't have to be announced up front, the monster use it only after the save has failed. The creature also got a choice to use it or not, it's not automatic. And there's no penalty for failing two times. The target can afford to wait before it starts using its LR.

[MaxWilson]

Every time I see this sort of advice, I wonder: do people understand how Legendary Resistance works? It doesn't have to be announced up front, the monster use it only after the save has failed. The creature also got a choice to use it or not, it's not automatic. And there's no penalty for failing two times. The target can afford to wait before it starts using its LR.

Yep, Contagion is useless against monsters with legendary resistance unless they have extremely weak Con saves, and even then it's probably still useless.

That said, Contagion could do with a rewrite to be slightly less useless. I like the rule that Contagion applies, or doesn't, every round, depending on whether or not you pass the save at the beginning of the round. After three failures or three successes it "sticks".

The mental image here is Madame Mim's sickness from the Sword and the Stone. Rapid onset of disease, hot and cold flashes, maybe a moment of recovery, and then bam! either you're sick for days or else it's now over.

[ATHATH]

Yep, Contagion is useless against monsters with legendary resistance unless they have extremely weak Con saves, and even then it's probably still useless.

That said, Contagion could do with a rewrite to be slightly less useless. I like the rule that Contagion applies, or doesn't, every round, depending on whether or not you pass the save at the beginning of the round. After three failures or three successes it "sticks".

The mental image here is Madame Mim's sickness from the Sword and the Stone. Rapid onset of disease, hot and cold flashes, maybe a moment of recovery, and then bam! either you're sick for days or else it's now over.
RAW, the debuffs apply WHILE the victim is making their saves; the saves merely determine when the effects END (either immediately after the third successful save or after 7 days). RAI has explicitly been confirmed in Sage Advice and on Twitter to be that it should not behave like that, though.

For more discussion about this topic, see here (specifically, the top/only answer): https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/96890/does-the-contagion-spell-infect-immediately-on-a-melee-attack-hit

[elfinboy]

mailstrom and wrath of nature can be good if you cast them before wild shape
you can use mailstrom to get all the enemies together then turn into a giant scorpion to finish them

[JackPhoenix]

RAW, the debuffs apply WHILE the victim is making their saves; the saves merely determine when the effects END (either immediately after the third successful save or after 7 days). RAI has explicitly been confirmed in Sage Advice and on Twitter to be that it should not behave like that, though.

For more discussion about this topic, see here (specifically, the top/only answer): https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/96890/does-the-contagion-spell-infect-immediately-on-a-melee-attack-hit

Well, I think the main problem isn't the spell itself, but one specific option: Slimy Doom is really badly designed. Not that Flesh Rot is much better.


mailstrom and wrath of nature can be good if you cast them before wild shape
you can use mailstrom to get all the enemies together then turn into a giant scorpion to finish them

But what if they ignore the mail and won't come? Or if they can't read?

[EdenIndustries]

I'd also like to highlight the already mentioned Wrath of Nature. Especially the 'Roots and Vines' bit that lets you restrain enemies.

Once per turn (no action required), an enemy has to make a strength saving throw. If they fail, they then need to use an action to make a Strength check (not saving throw). This is significant since similar spells provide enemies with a free saving throw every round, and this makes them use an action to make a check, not a saving throw (which is harder to succeed on). Now granted, the initial strength saving throw is one that a bunch of enemies are probably decent at making. But over the course of the minute of the spell, you have 10 chances to lock down enemies in addition to a bunch of nice damage. If you manage to take even one enemy out of the fight for a couple rounds, let alone several, that is a huge game-changer in my opinion.

Let's compare that to Hold Monster, another 5th-level spell. That targets a single creature only (unlike the 10 possible creatures of Wrath of Nature) and does no damage. The target of Hold Monster gets a free save each round, though to be fair it's paralyzed so it's not using its action for anything anyway. But it's probably easier to make that saving throw than the Strength check involved in Wrath of Nature.

Now even though Paralysis is a stronger condition than Restrained, I'm going to say that Wrath of Nature is definitely stronger than Hold Monster on average (not in all cases, of course). So if you'd like a version of Hold Monster that does a bunch of damage and can target 10 creatures instead of 1, Wrath of Nature is the spell for you :)

[JackPhoenix]

I'd also like to highlight the already mentioned Wrath of Nature. Especially the 'Roots and Vines' bit that lets you restrain enemies.

Once per turn (no action required), an enemy has to make a strength saving throw. If they fail, they then need to use an action to make a Strength check (not saving throw). This is significant since similar spells provide enemies with a free saving throw every round, and this makes them use an action to make a check, not a saving throw (which is harder to succeed on). Now granted, the initial strength saving throw is one that a bunch of enemies are probably decent at making. But over the course of the minute of the spell, you have 10 chances to lock down enemies in addition to a bunch of nice damage. If you manage to take even one enemy out of the fight for a couple rounds, let alone several, that is a huge game-changer in my opinion.

Let's compare that to Hold Monster, another 5th-level spell. That targets a single creature only (unlike the 10 possible creatures of Wrath of Nature) and does no damage. The target of Hold Monster gets a free save each round, though to be fair it's paralyzed so it's not using its action for anything anyway. But it's probably easier to make that saving throw than the Strength check involved in Wrath of Nature.

Now even though Paralysis is a stronger condition than Restrained, I'm going to say that Wrath of Nature is definitely stronger than Hold Monster on average (not in all cases, of course). So if you'd like a version of Hold Monster that does a bunch of damage and can target 10 creatures instead of 1, Wrath of Nature is the spell for you :)

Assuming the enemy stands 10' or less from a convenient tree. Wrath of Nature is completely terrain-dependant. The first option requires a vegetation, the second option requires a tree, and the last option require loose stones lying around.

[Beechgnome]

Assuming the enemy stands 10' or less from a convenient tree. Wrath of Nature is completely terrain-dependant. The first option requires a vegetation, the second option requires a tree, and the last option require loose stones lying around.

Yeah Plant growth cast first takes care of the first condition and erupting earth might create the third, but a tree is a harder one to make out of nothing.

[nickl_2000]

Yeah Plant growth cast first takes care of the first condition and erupting earth might create the third, but a tree is a harder one to make out of nothing.

That's still a three spell investment.

[Beechgnome]

That's still a three spell investment.

Well, assuming the conditions don't exist. I would think loose stones might be fairly common in most caves, underground or outdoor settings. But if they aren't, you have a backup plan. The same goes for plants and plant growth. But your point is valid...if you are expecting to be fighting in a cloud city or weird environment, wrath of nature may not be for you.

[nickl_2000]

Well, assuming the conditions don't exist. I would think loose stones might be fairly common in most caves, underground or outdoor settings. But if they aren't, you have a backup plan. The same goes for plants and plant growth. But your point is valid...if you are expecting to be fighting in a cloud city or weird environment, wrath of nature may not be for you.

I think overall I'm going to be spending most of my 5th level slots on Wall of Stone and upcasting, but keep Maelstrom and Wraith of Nature as a possibility depending on the location I am in.

[Beechgnome]

I think overall I'm going to be spending most of my 5th level slots on Wall of Stone and upcasting, but keep Maelstrom and Wraith of Nature as a possibility depending on the location I am in.

That is very reasonable. Wall of Stone can accomplish a lot on its own.

[EdenIndustries]

Assuming the enemy stands 10' or less from a convenient tree. Wrath of Nature is completely terrain-dependant. The first option requires a vegetation, the second option requires a tree, and the last option require loose stones lying around.

For what it's worth, the restraining feature does not require a tree nearby, only that the target is on the ground within the 60-foot cube. The tree feature that does damage does indeed require a tree within 10 feet.