Battle Blessing Paladin

[cartejos]

Battle Blessing is a feat that quickens your paladin spells.

With the interpretation of Paladin Spells being "Any spells on your paladin spell list" and not just where your paladin levels give you casting, like with prestige paladin.

What are the most effective ways to add spells to the Paladin Spell list?
I was thinking of going for Prestige Classes that would give the paladin some Domains or something to add a quick swathe of spells to it, but I wasn't in the know of what other methods there were.

Ignore Extra Spell because the DM doesn't allow it to grab off of non-classed spell lists.

[BowStreetRunner]

Sword of the Arcane Order from Champions of Valor allows you to use your paladin spell slots to prepare wizard spells.

[heavyfuel]

Sword of the Arcane Order from Champions of Valor allows you to use your paladin spell slots to prepare wizard spells.

Which are, as you so wisely pointed out, wizard spells.

[Thurbane]

Here's a topic dedicated to the subject of adding spells to your spell list (among other things): Ways to Expand a Spell List (III) (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2777.0)

[Nifft]

Hmm, I wonder how would it work with a Rainbow Warsnake into Prestige Paladin.

Are all Cleric (and Warmage) spells Paladin spells, in addition to the unique Paladin spells that the Prestige Paladin grants?

[heavyfuel]

Hmm, I wonder how would it work with a Rainbow Warsnake into Prestige Paladin.

Are all Cleric (and Warmage) spells Paladin spells, in addition to the unique Paladin spells that the Prestige Paladin grants?

I don't think these spells would be (Prestige) Paladin spells. Prestige Paladin makes no mention of transforming your spells into paladin spells. Rainbow Servant explicitly says the spells are "cleric spells". And in fact, I don't even think P.Pally grants you "paladin spells".


any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list

You gain access to the spells on the list, but nothing says they are still "bard spells" or "ranger spells" or "paladin spells". For all we know, a Cleric/P.Pally has access to those spells as "cleric spells". Makes sense when you consider that the usage of the "Prestige Base Classes" mean the "Regular Base Classes" stop existing. How can you cast "paladin spells" if paladins don't exist?

[liquidformat]

Ya I have always scratched my head about that, does the domain gained from Divine Crusader and other PrCs qualify as 'paladin spells' if you enter said classes as a paladin? I believe if nothing else bone knight spells should and I would hope blackguard would but I am in general confused by blackguard especially how it plays with paladin of slaughter and tyranny since you could technically enter without being an ex paladin...

[KillianHawkeye]

I am in general confused by blackguard especially how it plays with paladin of slaughter and tyranny since you could technically enter without being an ex paladin...

Those other alignment Paladins are optional parts of the rules. If you allow one of the evil Paladin variants (Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny), it's meant to replace Blackguard (the archetypical "fallen Paladin" class) in your game. Much in the same way that Prestige Paladins aren't meant to exist in the same world as standard Paladins, you're supposed to pick one consistent method of achieving "Character Archetype X" and not use the other options which essentially do the same thing. It's the same reason that Mystic Theurge and other role-combo classes shouldn't be allowed in a game that uses the gestalt rules. The rules options you're using supply a different means of accomplishing that character type.

[heavyfuel]

Those other alignment Paladins are optional parts of the rules. If you allow one of the evil Paladin variants (Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny), it's meant to replace Blackguard (the archetypical "fallen Paladin" class) in your game. Much in the same way that Prestige Paladins aren't meant to exist in the same world as standard Paladins, you're supposed to pick one consistent method of achieving "Character Archetype X" and not use the other options which essentially do the same thing. It's the same reason that Mystic Theurge and other role-combo classes shouldn't be allowed in a game that uses the gestalt rules. The rules options you're using supply a different means of accomplishing that character type.


I couldn't agree more. In fact, if a player wants to play a fallen pally I'm more than willing to import the "trade your paladin levels for blackguard levels" for the evil paladins.

[liquidformat]

Those other alignment Paladins are optional parts of the rules. If you allow one of the evil Paladin variants (Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny), it's meant to replace Blackguard (the archetypical "fallen Paladin" class) in your game. Much in the same way that Prestige Paladins aren't meant to exist in the same world as standard Paladins, you're supposed to pick one consistent method of achieving "Character Archetype X" and not use the other options which essentially do the same thing. It's the same reason that Mystic Theurge and other role-combo classes shouldn't be allowed in a game that uses the gestalt rules. The rules options you're using supply a different means of accomplishing that character type.

I don't agree with that assessment, the Slaughter/Tyranny are presented as alternate class features and make no mention of disallowing any other classes or prcs; whereas prestige bard/paladin/ranger are represented in place of the base classes and expressly say this inside their entry. By RAW Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny can go into blackguard as long as they meet all requirements, heck even looking at it from RAI I don't think your argument has a leg to stand on, unless you are saying no variant should ever qualify for a prc they otherwise qualify for but that prc was meant for the original version of the class. The only real question is whether Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny qualify for the level stacking feature of blackguard, and I think the answer would be hard maybe. If becoming a blackguard violates Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny' code of conduct then they are a 'fallen paladin' and expressly apply; if they are not breaking their code by becoming a blackguard then no the classes don't stack. The PRC really isn't an issue in and of itself it is only an issue if you allow a paladin to stack their class with it.

On a weird side note a Paladin of Tyranny could become law enforcement for a kingdom; however, in inevitably upholding the law will lead him to commit a 'good' act like killing or bringing to justice a murderer which would seem to violate his code of conduct. On the other hand, not upholding the law would also seem to violate his code of conduct since he is suppose to uphold law (assuming the ruler is powerful enough to be in charge). So I guess as a Paladin of Tyranny enforcing law you have to make sure you aren't killing the murderer in a fight so that he can be thoroughly tortured before death. Also if said murderer was pleading for death due to over zealous torture techniques would granting him death be considered a good deed?

[KillianHawkeye]

I don't know, would you take Bladesinger or Eldritch Knight when you can just be a Duskblade? Two ways of accomplishing the same character archetype, but one is clearly better than the others.

It may not be an explicit replacement like Prestige Paladin and basic Paladin, but the evil Paladin variants take up the same design space thematically as the Blackguard and do it better. There's never any reason for a fallen Paladin to trade levels into Blackguard if you just let them dedicate themselves to evil as a variant Paladin (just like a fallen Cleric can dedicate themselves to a new deity, using atonement, in the Core Rules). The Blackguard class may as well not exist at that point. The fact is that the idea was redone in a better way at a later time.

Can you use both versions of the same thing in your game? Sure. Of course you can. But my argument is that you shouldn't, because they're redundant.

[tyckspoon]

It may not be an explicit replacement like Prestige Paladin and basic Paladin, but the evil Paladin variants take up the same design space thematically as the Blackguard and do it better. There's never any reason for a fallen Paladin to trade levels into Blackguard if you just let them dedicate themselves to evil as a variant Paladin (just like a fallen Cleric can dedicate themselves to a new deity, using atonement, in the Core Rules). The Blackguard class may as well not exist at that point. The fact is that the idea was redone in a better way at a later time.


Well, there is one major difference between the Blackguard and the Evil Paladins - the Blackguard doesn't carry a Code of Conduct. That makes it suitable for a broader range of 'champions of Evil' than the Paladins of Tyranny and Slaughter... especially the Paladin of Slaughter, because that one is blessed with an incredibly stupid and, IMO, functionally unplayable Code of Conduct. (Must 'sow death and destruction at all opportunities.' Had a meal at an inn and didn't assault the innkeeper, smash some dishes, and pick a pointless fight with the guy sitting next to you? Code violation, you fall.)

[liquidformat]

I don't know, would you take Bladesinger or Eldritch Knight when you can just be a Duskblade? Two ways of accomplishing the same character archetype, but one is clearly better than the others.

It may not be an explicit replacement like Prestige Paladin and basic Paladin, but the evil Paladin variants take up the same design space thematically as the Blackguard and do it better. There's never any reason for a fallen Paladin to trade levels into Blackguard if you just let them dedicate themselves to evil as a variant Paladin (just like a fallen Cleric can dedicate themselves to a new deity, using atonement, in the Core Rules). The Blackguard class may as well not exist at that point. The fact is that the idea was redone in a better way at a later time.

Can you use both versions of the same thing in your game? Sure. Of course you can. But my argument is that you shouldn't, because they're redundant.

Your initial argument was that they can't/won't function together and that one excludes the other which had no ground to stand on. Your new argument is that you shouldn't because they are too similar? That is silly if we took out every class/prc that is too similar to another that would remove a large majority of the classes in the game. It is like saying we have warblades so you aren't allowed to have fighter levels.

And your argument only goes down hill from there. Just because going straight duskblade is more optimal doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to take a prc I otherwise qualify for. Also your choice of comparison sucks as bladesinger is just bad and Eldritch Knight is rarely used past a single level. Blackguard on the other hand isn't bad at all if you don't loose your class features by entering and if you allow paladins to class stack you are now bumping paladin up a tier. It still won't compete with tier 1 and probably not most of tier 2 but it is a solid tier 3 now.

[AnimeTheCat]

(Must 'sow death and destruction at all opportunities.' Had a meal at an inn and didn't assault the innkeeper, smash some dishes, and pick a pointless fight with the guy sitting next to you? Code violation, you fall.)

Do you fall or do you rise? Hmmm... :smallwink:

[liquidformat]

Do you fall or do you rise? Hmmm... :smallwink:

Ya paladin of slaughter is pretty much unplayable with code as written, even being a murder hobo is questionable as you are morally obligated to go after your own party. Tyranny is much easier to play, you are pretty much just obligated to rise through the ranks as quickly as possible through whatever means possible within the 'rules'while being as big of a jerk as you can!

It is similar to trying to play a demon or a devil. Demons really shouldn't be playable due to the affect of evil chaos.

[tiercel]

Other than that one Forgotten Realms ACF for paladins (which adds, IIRC, one slot per spell level -- Mystic Fire Knight?), is there a way of adding a significant number of *spell slots* that are usable with paladin spells and thus Battle Blessing?

One of the thing I've always wondered about with Battle Blessing is how much it's actually worth it, given that "free auto-quicken" is awesome in principle, but a 6th level paladin (or character with 6th-level paladin casting) is going to have probably 2 spells a day; at 10th level, maybe 4 spells a day. (Not counting the ACF, but assuming that the character is advancing paladin spellcasting, either because they are going straight paladin (!) or are in a PrC that advances casting.)

Given that some paladin spells are already swift-action casting, that means not a whole lot of mileage without extra slots. --I suppose Pearls of Power help as long as you don't mind recharging the same spell over and over, but it seems like if you're going to take Battle Blessing you want to make sure you're getting some significant mileage out of it.

[liquidformat]

It really depends, if we are considering things like the casting from Divine Crusader or sword of arcane order as options for battle blessing then it is an extraordinary feat indeed. If it is just pure paladin spells with maybe the addition of blackguard and things that specifically advance base spell casting I would lean towards no, especially before level 12. For the most part I am much more heavily eyeing things like awesome smite and animal devotion and Divine X over battle blessing.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Other than that one Forgotten Realms ACF for paladins (which adds, IIRC, one slot per spell level -- Mystic Fire Knight?), is there a way of adding a significant number of *spell slots* that are usable with paladin spells and thus Battle Blessing?

One of the thing I've always wondered about with Battle Blessing is how much it's actually worth it, given that "free auto-quicken" is awesome in principle, but a 6th level paladin (or character with 6th-level paladin casting) is going to have probably 2 spells a day; at 10th level, maybe 4 spells a day. (Not counting the ACF, but assuming that the character is advancing paladin spellcasting, either because they are going straight paladin (!) or are in a PrC that advances casting.)

Given that some paladin spells are already swift-action casting, that means not a whole lot of mileage without extra slots. --I suppose Pearls of Power help as long as you don't mind recharging the same spell over and over, but it seems like if you're going to take Battle Blessing you want to make sure you're getting some significant mileage out of it.

If you're an Illumian with the sigils that let you use Str to determine bonus spells Battle Blessing becomes a lot more valuable.
It also depends on the splatbooks allowed since the Paladin list is pretty anemic without SpC.

Even then it's not a must-have, merely good. And i wouldn't take it before level 9 at the earliest.