Incantatrix Banned School

[Yogibear41]

Does a spellcaster who takes levels in Incantatrix and thereby gains a banned school of magic, retain the ability to cast spells of that school he has already learned?

For example a wizards takes heroism as one of his 2nd level spells, he levels up and becomes an Incantatrix, does he keep the ability to cast Heroism, as well as any other enchantment spells he already had learned or does he lose those as well?

I seem to remember something somewhere, about a character gaining a banned school later on, gets to still cast the spells he knew already before banning it.

[Sleven]

Does a spellcaster who takes levels in Incantatrix and thereby gains a banned school of magic, retain the ability to cast spells of that school he has already learned?

For example a wizards takes heroism as one of his 2nd level spells, he levels up and becomes an Incantatrix, does he keep the ability to cast Heroism, as well as any other enchantment spells he already had learned or does he lose those as well?

I seem to remember something somewhere, about a character gaining a banned school later on, gets to still cast the spells he knew already before banning it.

That's because there's specific text for it in a number of classes (like Wizard of High Sorcery and Red Wizard). Incantatrix, however, has no such text. For some this is enough of a difference to say that the Incantatrix must give up that school for good.

That being said, the Focused Study ability refers us to the specialization text for wizards in the Player Handbook, which says, "Specialization allows a wizard to cast extra spells from her chosen school, but she then never learns to cast spells from some other schools. [...] Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can't even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later."

That being said, the Player's Handbook rules all operate under the assumption that the Wizard can only make this choice at level one, and thus would never have a chance to learn spells from a prohibited school. The long and short of it: there's no clear answer. Ask your DM.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The original version of incantatrix in MoF had the clause that explicitly says they can still use spells they already know from their newly banned school and it makes no sense that you should forget how your own notes in your spellbook work, never mind a spell in your own head (spont. caster entry) simply being lost, so the intent and sensible solution seems to be that you keep them.

There's room to argue that the clause being removed was deliberate and you do lose those spells but it seems to me that this is the kind of RAW-to-the-extreme nonsense that leads to things like down-healing or monks lacking unarmed attack proficiency.

[Nifft]

it makes no sense that you should forget how your own notes in your spellbook work

Incantatrix isn't weak. The class doesn't need its main cot subverted.

If you skip Leg Day for a year, you won't "forget" how to do pistol-squats. None the less, in spite of "not forgetting", you are not going to be able to do a set of pistol-squats.

Reduction in capability isn't limited to memory.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Incantatrix isn't weak. The class doesn't need its main cot subverted.

If you skip Leg Day for a year, you won't "forget" how to do pistol-squats. None the less, in spite of "not forgetting", you are not going to be able to do a set of pistol-squats.

Reduction in capability isn't limited to memory.

What subversion? Not gaining access to higher than 3rd level spells in a school is still a huge cost.

Your analogy doesn't work either. In the course of a day, at most, you go from doing full sets of pistol-squats just fine to not being able to do even one. It'd be something akin to ham-stringing yourself.

That's not even considering that spellcasting takes place almost entirely within the mind. For a wizard to suddenly be unable to memorize spells already in his book is nonsensical enough but what of the spells from that school he already prepared and hasn't yet used? Upon gaining that level in experience he suddenly locks out those options even though they're already at the ready? That's absurd.

Worse still; a sorcerer whose magic comes from his very blood and whose mind contains all of his spells suddenly can't quite figure out how to do that thing he was doing yesterday even though it's part of his very essence? That makes less than no sense.

[Nifft]

What subversion? Not gaining access to higher than 3rd level spells in a school is still a huge cost.

Your analogy doesn't work either. In the course of a day, at most, you go from doing full sets of pistol-squats just fine to not being able to do even one. It'd be something akin to ham-stringing yourself.

You can fail to understand the analogy if you try, but it's not like any analogy is needed to understand this text.



Focused Studies (Ex): At 1st level, the incantatrix gives up a school of magic so as to focus more on the remaining schools. She must choose a school of magic other than abjuration or divination as a prohibited school. This prohibited school is in addition to any others already chosen due to school specialization. Thus, a specialized wizard taking this prestige class has three prohibited schools instead of two.


You aren't merely barred from learning new stuff, you give up a school to which you previously had access.

You sacrifice part of your previous capability.

There's nothing about remembering or not remembering, because it's not a memory game. It's a magical sacrifice.


And again, it's not like Incantatrix needs a buff. The good-faith reading still results in a blatantly overpowered character. That character doesn't need to cheese in a bunch of should-be-prohibited spells.

[umbergod]

Doesnt Lost Empires have a pair of feats for basically reversing the effects of magic school banning?

Edit: nvm, as those specifically call out specialist wizard levels as a prerequisite

[Necroticplague]

It's a magical sacrifice.

U wot m8?



Focused Studies (Ex): At 1st level, the incantatrix gives up a school of magic so as to focus more on the remaining schools. She must choose a school of magic other than abjuration or divination as a prohibited school. This prohibited school is in addition to any others already chosen due to school specialization. Thus, a specialized wizard taking this prestige class has three prohibited schools instead of two.
Extraordinary is, by definition, not magical.

[JoshuaZ]

Extraordinary is, by definition, not magical.

There are a lot of (ex) abilities which border on the magical. For example, much of Tome of Battle. Moreover, there's no reason one couldn't have an aspect of a sacrifice for necessary magical power where the sacrifice itself was somehow instantaneous; for example a ritual might require sacrificing a victim as part of the magic. The victim being dead isn't a supernatural thing which goes away in an anti-magic zone.

This also helps balance some things. Since there are multiple ways to cast in an anti-magic zone in different books, if the ability were supernatural, one could use an anti-magic field to then cast spells from the banned school.

[Nifft]

U wot m8?
Extraordinary is, by definition, not magical. Were my words too big? Here, I'll use fewer.


the incantatrix gives up a school of magic Do you think magic is magical or not?

The thing sacrificed is magic, so the words "magical sacrifice" refers to the thing sacrificed as magical, much like a monetary sacrifice would mean a sacrifice of money.

This really isn't complex -- did you honestly not understand that?



There are a lot of (ex) abilities which border on the magical. For example, much of Tome of Battle. Moreover, there's no reason one couldn't have an aspect of a sacrifice for necessary magical power where the sacrifice itself was somehow instantaneous; for example a ritual might require sacrificing a victim as part of the magic. The victim being dead isn't a supernatural thing which goes away in an anti-magic zone.

This also helps balance some things. Since there are multiple ways to cast in an anti-magic zone in different books, if the ability were supernatural, one could use an anti-magic field to then cast spells from the banned school. Or you could have an ally Ability Rip it out of you. There are myriad problems with (Su) penalties.

In this case, it's the sacrifice of magic (a whole school's worth). It really shouldn't be thought of as an ability at all -- it's a reduction in ability, not a type of ability. The (Ex) / (Su) designation is misleading, though not particularly harmful in this case since it's (Ex).

[JoshuaZ]

Or you could have an ally Ability Rip it out of you. There are myriad problems with (Su) penalties.


Doesn't Ability Rip explicitly exclude class features?

[Nifft]

Doesn't Ability Rip explicitly exclude class features?



The two creatures must be within 30 feet of each other and remain conscious throughout the casting of the spell. In exchange for this new ability, the recipient permanently loses a supernatural ability it already possesses. If it has none to exchange, it instead loses two class levels (or 2 Hit Dice if it has no class levels).

Class features cannot be transferred by means of this spell.


What you do is you "permanently lose" the "ability" instead of transferring it.

Class abilities can't be transferred, but nothing seems to prohibit them from being permanently lost in exchange.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You can fail to understand the analogy if you try, but it's not like any analogy is needed to understand this text.

I understand the analogy. It's just a bad analogy.


You aren't merely barred from learning new stuff, you give up a school to which you previously had access.


You sacrifice part of your previous capability.

There's nothing about remembering or not remembering, because it's not a memory game. It's a magical sacrifice.

Access to the school is merely being able to learn spells from that school under every other circumstance. The class feature even calls on wizard specialization which, as it's suggested in the title of this ability and the fluff surrounding wizard specialization, is merely neglecting a field of study. It is not a "magical sacrifice." It's a mechanical one.




And again, it's not like Incantatrix needs a buff. The good-faith reading still results in a blatantly overpowered character. That character doesn't need to cheese in a bunch of should-be-prohibited spells.

Real talk: if persistent spell wasn't a thing, incantatrix wouldn't be nearly as shiny in the community's collective eye.

I'm not talking about a buff. I'm talking about an interpretation of the ability that's consistent with other such abilities and not a nerf.

[JoshuaZ]

What you do is you "permanently lose" the "ability" instead of transferring it.

Class abilities can't be transferred, but nothing seems to prohibit them from being permanently lost in exchange.

Ah, that's a clever stunt. Now I wonder if there are any PrCs which have Su penalties one can use this on.

[Nifft]

Access to the school is merely being able to learn spells from that school under every other circumstance. The class feature even calls on wizard specialization which, as it's suggested in the title of this ability and the fluff surrounding wizard specialization, is merely neglecting a field of study. It is not a "magical sacrifice." It's a mechanical one. So wait. Since all magic is game mechanics, therefore you think all magic is mechanical? You're saying something absurd here. Magic is magical.

Additionally you're wrong, since giving up a school doesn't merely mean that you can't learn new spells of that school. You can't cast spells of that school, and you can't use magic items which trigger or complete spells from that school:



School Specialization

A school is one of eight groupings of spells, each defined by a common theme. If desired, a wizard may specialize in one school of magic (see below). Specialization allows a wizard to cast extra spells from her chosen school, but she then never learns to cast spells from some other schools.

A specialist wizard can prepare one additional spell of her specialty school per spell level each day. She also gains a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks to learn the spells of her chosen school.

The wizard must choose whether to specialize and, if she does so, choose her specialty at 1st level. At this time, she must also give up two other schools of magic (unless she chooses to specialize in divination; see below), which become her prohibited schools.

A wizard can never give up divination to fulfill this requirement.

Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.
The wizard behaves as if all spells from the banned school(s) were removed from her spell list.

And that's what the Incantatrix sacrifice entails: pick another school, remove its spells from your character's spell list. Goodbye all spells from that school, both previously known and unknown. Those spells are no longer available.



Real talk: Does that mean everything else you said was intentionally deceptive?

You weren't being "real" until just this bit?

[Necroticplague]

Were my words too big? Here, I'll use fewer.

Do you think magic is magical or not?

The thing sacrificed is magic, so the words "magical sacrifice" refers to the thing sacrificed as magical, much like a monetary sacrifice would mean a sacrifice of money.

This really isn't complex -- did you honestly not understand that?

There's no need to jump straight to insulting my intelligence for something that was due to your own ambiguous wording.

An adjective describing 'sacrifice' can equally as well describe both the thing being sacrificed (as in 'financial sacrifice' or 'blood sacrifice') or the process of the sacrifice itself (as in 'intricate sacrifice' or complicated sacrifice'). My mind leaped to the latter, while you meant the former.

[Cosi]

I mean, there's no real reason it would have to be magical to give up a school of magic. It's not "magic" to decide to study Biology instead of Chemistry, and you could easily imagine the same thing happening with Necromancy and Enchantment. A non-magical interpretation does make the interpretation where lose spells you already new a bit weird, but it's not implausible.

Also, getting caught up in the specific fluff verbiage instead of the mechanical description is unhelpful. It's not like it says "[Ex]: You mystically seal away your knowledge of one school of magic".

[Nifft]

Ah, that's a clever stunt. Now I wonder if there are any PrCs which have Su penalties one can use this on. Yeah.

Though I'd consider it "clever", with scare quotes, because it's really just a subversion of the spell's intent.

It's a spell which really rewards being "clever".



There's no need to jump straight to insulting my intelligence for something that was due to your own ambiguous wording.

An adjective describing 'sacrifice' can equally as well describe both the thing being sacrificed (as in 'financial sacrifice' or 'blood sacrifice') or the process of the sacrifice itself (as in 'intricate sacrifice' or complicated sacrifice'). My mind leaped to the latter, while you meant the former.

I'm not insulting your intelligence. You expressed an inability to comprehend this thing which you're now trying to explain. This is how you expressed your incomprehension:


U wot m8?

Looks like you're trying to attack me for a bad assumption you made.

"U wot m8?" isn't a thing you say to someone when there's a possibility that it's just your own issue, is it m8?

Anyway, now that apparently you do understand the thing which you're trying to explain, I guess we're done here. Thanks for your contributions to the thread.



I mean, there's no real reason it would have to be magical to give up a school of magic. It's not "magic" to decide to study Biology instead of Chemistry, and you could easily imagine the same thing happening with Necromancy and Enchantment. A non-magical interpretation does make the interpretation where lose spells you already new a bit weird, but it's not implausible.

Also, getting caught up in the specific fluff verbiage instead of the mechanical description is unhelpful. It's not like it says "[Ex]: You mystically seal away your knowledge of one school of magic".

Heh. Fighters give up all 8 schools of magic, and they're certainly not magical.

Maybe an easier to understand analogy would be that you can surgically alter your tendons to make some movements easier, but prohibit other movements (e.g. now you're better at curling, but you can't fully extend your arms any more).

[KillianHawkeye]

The obvious solution to this problem is to plan ahead and just never learn any spells from the school you're planning on giving up when you get into Incantatrix. That's what I did, and it's worked out just fine so far.

[Necroticplague]

The obvious solution to this problem is to plan ahead and just never learn any spells from the school you're planning on giving up when you get into Incantatrix. That's what I did, and it's worked out just fine so far.

Fortunately, the standard 'always bannable schools' are sufficiently plentiful that picking one you're fine with isn't hard.