Binder Befuddlement

[SleepyShadow]

Hey everyone, I've got a Binder in my D&D group and she's struggling to keep up. I've read through the Binder Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2942) enough to have a decent idea on what vestiges to use, but I'm having a hard time nailing down a playstyle. I've never played a binder before, so maybe I just need more practice with the character. Still, it doesn't seem as intuitive to play as I had hoped. If there's anyone who knows what I need to do to help her keep up with the rest of the party, I'd really appreciate the advice.

Thanks in advance! :smallsmile:

[Nifft]

What's a typical adventure going to demand?

What's the rest of the party look like, and what roles are under-staffed in this party?


If she doesn't have a particular Binder concept in mind already, those are the questions that might help her build a rewarding PC.

Binders can struggle a lot (especially around levels 4-7 or so), even more so if they're trying to compete with a character who excels at their shtick.

[NomGarret]

Classes like the binder are best in games where the party makeup changes from session to session. This is ironic for a class that’s typically so “weird” in-game, but a lot of the strength in versatility comes from “Sara can’t make it tonight, I guess I’ll take tanky vestiges.” When you have a consistent party, you lose that aspect.

This means you have to rely more on the changing in-game landscape. Like a prepared caster, you want to do your research on upcoming threats and plan accordingly. What kind of enemies will you be facing? What kind of spaces will you be going through? Is there another party member that will have trouble in this scenario and can you back them up? Is it better to double up on a party strength?

Regardless, I agree that levels 4-7 are rough. I’ve felt for a while you should get your second vestige around that point.

[Nifft]

Regardless, I agree that levels 4-7 are rough. I’ve felt for a while you should get your second vestige around that point.

Yeah. You should really get a 2nd vestige around level 4 or 5.

Also some vestiges need to be buffed up. There's way too much variance in power from one to the next. The ones at the top of the power curve seem to mostly be at the appropriate level for a T3 class.

[The Viscount]

I've played a low level binder before in a party of other all-rounders (incarnate, warlock, swordsage, and factotum) and I felt like I pulled my weight. Though in the interest of full disclosure I did have a level dip in Changeling Rogue so I could make for a good face.

The most important thing is Improved Binding as a feat. Earlier access to more powerful vestiges is the best thing any binder can do.

If you can't gather any information before to help you know what may be a good choice, I've found it best to fill the party gaps. I found a lot of utility out of Malphas, because at low levels scouting/scrying options are limited.

Knowing what your party composition will help us give better advice.

[SleepyShadow]

The rest of the party consists of a paladin, ranger, druid, and wizard; everyone is level 6 and pretty comfortable/competent in their roles. The binder has improved binding, so she can get some decent vestiges. The problem she runs into seems to be finding a niche to fill. The players are pretty consistent in showing up, so playing as a stop-gap is basically out. As for what the group is going to be running into, the party is headed up north to deal with orcs in the mountains. Mainly a dungeon crawl, IIRC.

Other than mentioning that she likes Tenebrous, nothing is really set in stone. She's got a good character concept, but she's hung up making the mechanics fit the flavor.

[Nifft]

Tenebrous is pretty great, and well worth building around.

In terms of focus, the obvious path would be Binder 5 / Ur-Priest 2 / Tenebrous Apostate 5, and it's remarkably strong -- borderline cheese, really, since it touches Ur-Priest. But I see that your party has a Paladin, so maybe taking a class that spits in the eye of all gods isn't copacetic.


I'm assuming the Paladin is the front-liner along with the Druid's animal, with the Druid using Wild Shape to be an off-tank. The Ranger and Wizard are the ranged attackers who stay in the back. The Binder needs to find a way to off-tank, or front-line, or help with rear-guard / ranged stuff. Is that accurate?

[SleepyShadow]

I'm assuming the Paladin is the front-liner along with the Druid's animal, with the Druid using Wild Shape to be an off-tank. The Ranger and Wizard are the ranged attackers who stay in the back. The Binder needs to find a way to off-tank, or front-line, or help with rear-guard / ranged stuff. Is that accurate?

The paladin and ranger tag-team the front line as damage dealers, while the druid/animal companion act as the tanks and play bodyguard for the wizard when necessary. The ranger only uses his bow when he can't get close enough to go full TWF blender. The wizard is the only dedicated ranged character, and she generally uses a suite of battlefield control spells. The team comp kind of leaves the binder in the lurch.

Also, Ur-Priest would definitely be a bad idea lol

[Nifft]

Okay, let's pry open a niche.

Utility Artificer -> take Astaroth the Unjustly Fallen (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a) during downtime; as a level 5+ Binder, you can pick feats like Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft Wand, and Craft Wondrous Item. Collaborate with the Wizard, Paladin, and Druid to create wands & stuff for the party.

Then, during an adventure, bind Karsus, and use the wands you created (above).


Instant Bard -> At level 8, you can bind both Astaroth (link above) and Naberius. That gives you a nice bonus on social skills, and you can take 10 on Diplomacy checks. You have command and suggestion (for hard and soft negotiation). You've also got Bardic Lore from Astaroth and disguise self from Naberius -- very useful for sneaking around in an urban setting.


Debuff Stick -> Focalor's Aura of Sadness makes anything adjacent to you much easier for the Wizard and Druid to affect. Focalor also grants 1/round lightning strikes, which are NOT once per 5 rounds -- it's much stronger than most such abilities, since you can spam it repeatedly. It's comparable to a Reserve feat. The blinding breath is only useful if you have a party which can exploit flat-footed, like if you had three Rogues or whatever.

At level 8: combo with Tenebrous and the Divine Vigor feat so you are highly mobile and have access to lots of temporary HP. That allows you to get into position, and gives you something to survive being there while the Wizard capitalizes on your debuff aura.

[Fizban]

Yeah, I've never understood why some people sing the Binder's praises as some paragon of T3 balance (at least they used to). It's just. . . bad. You've got a slightly oversized party with three melee bodies, and the one thing the Binder can be expected to reliably fall back on is. . . being a 3/4 d8 meatshield like a cleric when low on spells.

The one thing the binder does that's interesting is having multiple vestiges, but they don't even get that until level 8, and you're 2 levels off that. But even once it pops up I honestly don't see things getting any better. If you're using words like "blender" to describe the martials and "suite of battlefield control spells" for the wizard, nothing the Binder has is going to compete. They're bound by the vestiges in the book, and those vestiges are not powerful enough because they're designed as swappable full-known list endurance utility, not as optimized builds. They're a Warlock with narrower effects they can't mix and match, an Incarnate with less pumpability. You take a vestige to do the thing that you need today, assuming there is one, and hopefully it gives you something to do in combat, or you just swing a mace. But when the party already has three melees and two full casters, there's nothing you're needed for.

The only niche you're missing is trapfinding/opening, but even if you suddenly went ham on rogue stuff for the binder to do I'm not seeing a vestige with trapfinding. Malphas's bird scouts are really the only unique thing they get. Basically the only thing I see fixing this is digging into the vestiges and writing adventures that line up suspiciously well with needing heavy use of something that the Binder just so happens to be able to do at-will with a vestige that just so happens to be available (including such things as fighting through hordes of minions that would cost too many AoE spells and are annoyingly resistant to weapons)

In a couple levels they'll finally be able to bind two vestiges, and with Improved Binding they'll have 5th level vestiges available, which means they'll have access to stuff that most people expected to have already like teleporting a short distance to a place you can already see, reading minds, flying for one round, or opening locks a rogue could have done at 1st level.

If I had to pick something for now, well Focalor makes you into a moving debuff with an at-will lightning strike not bound by the usual 5 round restriction, almost like you're a Warlock, and Water Breathing which can be useful. But that's about the best you've got since until you get double binding you can't even combine the actual offensive abilities with the utility or defensive abilities. It's just completely ridiculous how they made this class that is clearly all about putting together a menu, then delayed the ability to pick more than one until freaking 8th.

Yeah, there's the web article vestiges which are vastly more powerful. Doesn't really fix the class though. And if you want more vestiges we've got plenty of homebrew on the boards at all sorts of power levels.

[Necroticplague]

Hey everyone, I've got a Binder in my D&D group and she's struggling to keep up. I've read through the Binder Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2942) enough to have a decent idea on what vestiges to use, but I'm having a hard time nailing down a playstyle. I've never played a binder before, so maybe I just need more practice with the character. Still, it doesn't seem as intuitive to play as I had hoped. If there's anyone who knows what I need to do to help her keep up with the rest of the party, I'd really appreciate the advice.

There is no real single playstyle for a binder. Your abilities will vary wildly by your currently bound vestiges.

[Zaq]

I'm inclined to agree with Fizban. The more I look at Binder and the more I try to work with it, the more convinced I am that it's not a class that stands on its own. It's great to mix in with something else (I still love my old Binder/Incarnate/Chameleon build that everyone's tired of hearing about, and Binder was truly an integral part of a greater whole there), but a pure Binder is kind of, well, missing something.

I've come to the conclusion that the Binder's greatest sin is that everything it gets is little. Even from the higher-level vestiges. Basically by design, there's very little that you can really build around and truly hang your hat on long-term. I'd say that kind of makes sense given that it's supposed to be swappable and versatile, but the Incarnate and the Totemist prove that it's totally possible to have fully swappable abilities while still having enough meat to rely on your tricks all day long until you get to the next swap. All your tricks are really just toys rather than integral parts of a well-rounded character.

I don't have a one-sentence solution to this problem, unfortunately. Other than "gestalt them with something." But that's probably not helpful.

[SleepyShadow]

Seems like Focalor is the way to go for now. Hopefully it'll prove more useful than Tenebrous has. As an aside, are there any vestiges particularly well-suited to fighting lycanthropes? The party is going to have to contend with a pack of werewolves before they get where they're going.

[Troacctid]

I'm inclined to agree with Fizban. The more I look at Binder and the more I try to work with it, the more convinced I am that it's not a class that stands on its own. It's great to mix in with something else (I still love my old Binder/Incarnate/Chameleon build that everyone's tired of hearing about, and Binder was truly an integral part of a greater whole there), but a pure Binder is kind of, well, missing something.

I've come to the conclusion that the Binder's greatest sin is that everything it gets is little. Even from the higher-level vestiges. Basically by design, there's very little that you can really build around and truly hang your hat on long-term. I'd say that kind of makes sense given that it's supposed to be swappable and versatile, but the Incarnate and the Totemist prove that it's totally possible to have fully swappable abilities while still having enough meat to rely on your tricks all day long until you get to the next swap. All your tricks are really just toys rather than integral parts of a well-rounded character.

I don't have a one-sentence solution to this problem, unfortunately. Other than "gestalt them with something." But that's probably not helpful.
Yeah, my problem every time I try to work with Binder is that gaining new class features requires me to throw away all the ones from lower levels. Pretty feel-bad, IMO. I don't think I'd ever play one below 7th level without multiclassing so I could actually do something besides making spy drones or being good at Diplomacy (but not both at the same time, heavens no). It's not like Incarnate, where I feel like I'm moving forward whenever I level up. Binder feels like moving sideways.


Seems like Focalor is the way to go for now. Hopefully it'll prove more useful than Tenebrous has. As an aside, are there any vestiges particularly well-suited to fighting lycanthropes? The party is going to have to contend with a pack of werewolves before they get where they're going.
Diabolus (AKA "Other Astaroth") is a 4th level vestige from Dragon #357 who makes all your weapons count as silvered, but with no penalty to damage rolls. Also gives you divination at will, fireball 3/day, a bonus to Bluff and Disguise checks equal to your Binder level, and half of any fire damage you deal is vile damage instead.

[Fizban]

Moving up the multi-vestige binding is the first and biggest thing, it should show up at 6th like the major breakpoint of basically everything else in the game. 6/12/18 is far more appropriate, and then make up some capstone or let them pick a special 9th level vestige at 20th instead of making slow progressions that assume you'll hit 20 exactly.

I think part of the reason they delayed it is because they didn't put any cap on what you can bind: as soon as you get double, you have double at max level. If they were stronger that'd be more merited and a limit of no more than one at max level would be appropriate, but they're weak. The exception is the so-good-it's-not-optional Improved Binding feat, so put the limit on that and say you can only bind one vestige over your normal level, boom done.

After that, Pact Augmentation has the most promise. A whole menu of swappable bonuses tied to class level? It's like you decided to write two different versions of the same ability, except this one sucks even worse. The thing is, a 5th level Binder's 2 pact augmentations aren't nothing: +10 hp is equivalent to improving your HD to d12s and resist energy 10 seriously blunts energy dependent foes, +2 AC isn't nothing, +1 attack isn't nothing, etc, but that's about it. A bunch of not nothing, but not good enough.

What say we just double everything?

Now that's bonuses that an optimizer might respect. +20hp is much more beastly, resist 20 lets you laugh off Fireballs without needing to save (or save through max die fireballs) or 10/10 lets you hit half the spectrum, +4 AC is a whole tier of defense, same for +4 attack, or +4 damage per hit, +4 all saves, DR 4/-, or if you just really want to go first then +8 initiative. If you're gonna make half the binder's features lame static bonuses, they need to be big enough to not be lame. With Pact Augmentation even more strongly tied to class level (no PrC cheesing), 3/4 BAB, no wide area bonus feats or spellcasting, yeah this ability can just be more powerful. It still won't give you a niche when the two accepted niches are "kill everything" and "magic everything," but it's better numbers you can move around if your gear or available buffs change. At higher levels the ability to stack them all onto the same thing for +6-8 actually does give you a thing no one else has: flat attack/damage/AC/save/resistance numbers way higher than other classes get, because those classes have higher BAB or base saves or stronger abilities.

Jeeze, hadn't heard of Diabolus- seriously every vestige not printed in Tome of Magic is just vastly more powerful. I sure hope there's some sort of limiting clause on that Divination at-will.

[Zaq]

I mean, even just stapling on Eldritch Blast would go a long way. (Yes, that's my one-sentence fix for the Shadowcaster as well, at least if "cross out all uses of per day and write in per encounter" is rejected, but deal with it.)

EB isn't exactly overwhelmingly powerful by any stretch of the imagination, but it gives you a baseline way of answering the question "and what exactly am I spending my standard action on?" Especially if your "once per five rounds" (read: 1/encounter) ability on your current vestige is recharging or irrelevant to what you're dealing with. I suppose you could even go one step farther and just straight up gestalt the Binder with the Warlock (there's definitely some fluff overlap, and 4e even made the Vestige Pact, which is exactly what it sounds like, an explicit option for Warlocks—for good reason, I dare say), if you really wanted to, but that's often seen as being kind of a drastic measure.

[Kelb_Panthera]

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a Try this on for size, see if it doesn't help.

[Troacctid]

Jeeze, hadn't heard of Diabolus- seriously every vestige not printed in Tome of Magic is just vastly more powerful. I sure hope there's some sort of limiting clause on that Divination at-will.
Just the normal limitations for the spell: chance of failure with no retry.

Personally I can't believe they gave two vestiges the same name. I don't care if they put in a sidebar about it (https://i.imgur.com/127bTmN.png). That's just confusing.

[Fizban]

Just the normal limitations for the spell: chance of failure with no retry.

Personally I can't believe they gave two vestiges the same name. I don't care if they put in a sidebar about it (https://i.imgur.com/127bTmN.png). That's just confusing.
It's funny because other people/books/whatever get cagey about having Augury even 1/day, and all it does is give you eh/uh/meh within the next hour. Most of the ridiculous divination spam expectations only actually work with at-will Divinations or better, but there it is, lol.

Also, last I heard Imgur stopped displaying images for anyone who didn't already have the image cached. Because apparently they don't like being an image host site? So I (and others) haven't seen your (or many other people's) avatar for weeks, nor the image linked. Been thinking about putting it in my sig or something.

[Nifft]

Yeah, I've never understood why some people sing the Binder's praises as some paragon of T3 balance (at least they used to). Did someone actually say that?

I think I said that the best vestiges were on par with T3 abilities, but the "paragon of T3 balance" is uh... not this class.


I suppose you could even go one step farther and just straight up gestalt the Binder with the Warlock (there's definitely some fluff overlap, and 4e even made the Vestige Pact, which is exactly what it sounds like, an explicit option for Warlocks—for good reason, I dare say), if you really wanted to, but that's often seen as being kind of a drastic measure.

Binder // Warlock is a great fix for both classes, and it's quite flavor-compatible as mixtures go, but it might make the Paladin and Ranger feel bad. (Though they could also each get a free T3 Gestalt and hurt nothing.)

Binder // Rogue, or Binder // Incarnate, or Binder // Dragonfire Adept ... lots of combos would also be fine, and most can answer the "what do this round" question.


Seems like Focalor is the way to go for now. Hopefully it'll prove more useful than Tenebrous has. As an aside, are there any vestiges particularly well-suited to fighting lycanthropes? The party is going to have to contend with a pack of werewolves before they get where they're going. Buer is a good "morning after" pill for Lycanthropes, since all diseases are cured upon binding, and your allies can ignore diseases while within 30 ft. of you -- that gives you time to travel back to town and get them a proper cure.

If you can declare that someone is your ally (in spite of their protests), then Buer might be able to cancel afflicted Lycanthropy in nearby people who are currently attacking you. This might be cheese, consult your DM before (ab)using.


Personally I can't believe they gave two vestiges the same name. I don't care if they put in a sidebar about it (https://i.imgur.com/127bTmN.png). That's just confusing.

I'm disappointed that they didn't put in a third one, and I'm very disappointed that there's no penalty for trying to bind two same-name guys at once.

They really ought to be annoyed at each other, since I'm certainly annoyed at them.

[Fizban]

Did someone actually say that?

I think I said that the best vestiges were on par with T3 abilities, but the "paragon of T3 balance" is uh... not this class.
Most definitely, though it was many moons and probably several tiers of power creep in people's tier definitions ago, so not in any of the last round of GitP tiering threads. And they probably didn't use "paragon" specifically but it's a better word than "positive example" or something.

[SleepyShadow]

Diabolus (AKA "Other Astaroth") is a 4th level vestige from Dragon #357 who makes all your weapons count as silvered, but with no penalty to damage rolls. Also gives you divination at will, fireball 3/day, a bonus to Bluff and Disguise checks equal to your Binder level, and half of any fire damage you deal is vile damage instead.

This will definitely come in handy. Thanks for finding that; I had totally missed the bit about weapons counting as silver. Heck, fireball sounds pretty good compared to "hit it with a stick and get an extra 1d8 of cold every 5 rounds".


Binder // Warlock is a great fix for both classes, and it's quite flavor-compatible as mixtures go, but it might make the Paladin and Ranger feel bad.

I don't think I need to worry about the paladin or rogue feeling bad. They've got the class features they wanted, and they're planning on jumping ship into better classes as soon as they level up again. Still, I don't think I'd be able to gestalt the binder.


Buer is a good "morning after" pill for Lycanthropes, since all diseases are cured upon binding, and your allies can ignore diseases while within 30 ft. of you -- that gives you time to travel back to town and get them a proper cure.

If you can declare that someone is your ally (in spite of their protests), then Buer might be able to cancel afflicted Lycanthropy in nearby people who are currently attacking you. This might be cheese, consult your DM before (ab)using.

As for using Buer to negate lycanthropy, I don't think it would work to stop a magical curse. Up to DM interpretation, really.


Personally I can't believe they gave two vestiges the same name. I don't care if they put in a sidebar about it. That's just confusing.

I also agree that having two vestiges with the same name is silly.

[Lord Haart]

I think a well-built binder doesn't suffer from the problems indicated in this thread, but also that Binder class is somewhat misleading about how it should be built.
It does present itself as a generalist who only needs Con and Cha as stats and doesn't care much about feats beyond its personal class ones.
As a generalist who only invests in Con and Cha as stats, it's bad.
(So is a rogue who only invests in Con and Cha as stats. For that matter, so is a rogue who only invests in Dex and Cha as stats and doesn't tightly focus its feats on taking maximum advantage of his Dex).

You are versatile, but you're not a spellcaster. Think of yourself as a rogue. Does just any rogue investing into whatever pull its weight competently? No. A rogue usually (though not always) builds around one of its many features, Sneak Attack, and making the most of it by focusing on a so-and-so combat style (two-weaponing-with-a-side-dish-of-natural-attacks, archery, screw-the-dexterity-i'll-dip-fighter-and-sneak-you-with-a-greatsword, etc.). So should you. And while your features come in packages, yóu've got a selection other non-TOB martials would kill for.

I mean, take one of the iconically build-worthy vestiges, Paimon the Dancer, avaiable at level 3. Look at the list of the stuff you get from it. Then look at, say, Swashbuckler. Then back at Paimon. Then at Ranger or whatever.

This feeling inside you is a looming realisation that if Paimon were the only class feature Binder gets, Binder would be a very solid martial class as far as 3.5's metrics go.


And if people build competent fighters and swashbucklers and rogues and rangers and even samurai, you sure can get up and build a competent binder.

Versatility? Versatility is good, sure. Reliability is better, though. If a rogue could, on a daily basis, turn off its Sneak Attack to temporarily get competent in three more skills, wouldn't that be great? No, though it would be useful on some non-adventuring days. You don't sacrifice your main schtick for versatility. Binder is versatile, sure: it's very versatile from level 8 on, when it can have its main cake and pick a secondary one to eat, too. And you can get versatile earlier, via stuff like Rapid Pact Making. But if you expect your morning routine to be "wake up, throw darts at the list of vestiges, pick whatever you hit, go to town", enjoy being a cleric with no spells.

Or you can be a stupid boring fighter with a kewl one-handed 2d6 weapon. You do know how to optimise those, right?
Or you can pump your save DC and be a stupid boring fighter that takes half damage from anything and forces other half onto enemies. Just make sure your party's out of range. Having any kind of self-healing on top is just rad.
Or you can be like me and recognise that natural weapons are the most fun, and Binder is second only to Totemist in that regard. Of course vestiges can't be your only source of natural attacks (even a good Totemist knows better than to rely only on his class in that regard), but they're helping, more as you get to higher levels. Get out-of-class natural attacks and a source of extra damage (ToB has some good stuff, so does multiclassing), bind an appropriate vestige, go to town.
Or you can, as mentioned, use Karsus for WBLmancy shenanigans. Like, you're not the only one who can be good at those shenanigans, but i won't stop you.
Or you can focus on Tenebrous, but then you'd better take advantage of his synergy with certain feats, not ignore it.
Or you can make a pseudo-rogue, i guess. For some reason WOTC love that. It's workable, too.
Or you can focus on Paimon and be awesome like Rainbow Dash.
Or you can go "yeah, whatever", bind Focalor and do whatever you like with your stats and feats, since there's no optimising around Focalor, it just works. Great for support builds who just want to do something while filling up their feat slots with Draconic Auras and stuff, or for those who optimise around a higher-level vestige but have to play through lower levels.


TL;DR: Focus. Pick a "Main" vestige with strong features. Build around it. (Don't feel bad to multiclass out of binder if levels in something else synergise more with your main vestige than more levels in binder do.) And never, ever, let yourself face the enemy while out of your main vestige.

And the simplest solution to the problem of "a player plays his binder and his binder is very lacking" is the same as with a lacking fighter or bard or whatever: ask the DM for permission to rebuild the character.

[Nifft]

This will definitely come in handy. Thanks for finding that; I had totally missed the bit about weapons counting as silver. Heck, fireball sounds pretty good compared to "hit it with a stick and get an extra 1d8 of cold every 5 rounds".

I'm guessing that your party's Binder never bothered to Rebuke and control a large number of Undead.

That's the power of Tenebrous -- uncapped daily Rebuke slots.

You can use those slots into fuel for feats, but the main power is that you can Rebuke a huge number of undead and keep them the next day when you bind someone else.

Since you keep talking about the less-powerful abilities, and since you have a Paladin in the party, I'm assuming that Rebuke never even got consideration.

[SleepyShadow]

I'm guessing that your party's Binder never bothered to Rebuke and control a large number of Undead.

That's the power of Tenebrous -- uncapped daily Rebuke slots.

You can use those slots into fuel for feats, but the main power is that you can Rebuke a huge number of undead and keep them the next day when you bind someone else.

Since you keep talking about the less-powerful abilities, and since you have a Paladin in the party, I'm assuming that Rebuke never even got consideration.

The party hasn't run into any undead aside from a bone creature wizard and his exploding skeleton minotaur, and that was three levels ago. I'm not ignoring Rebuke, it just hasn't come up.


TL;DR: Focus. Pick a "Main" vestige with strong features. Build around it. (Don't feel bad to multiclass out of binder if levels in something else synergise more with your main vestige than more levels in binder do.) And never, ever, let yourself face the enemy while out of your main vestige.

I want to help the Binder build around Tenebrous. Seems cool and it fits the character. Focalor and Diabolus seem like a good patch jobs until the Tenebrous idea can get off the ground. Any suggestions on building around Tenebrous would be greatly appreciated.

[Troacctid]

Definitely go into the Tenebrous prestige class then, I'd say.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, Binder is good for a 1-3 level dip with Imp. binding to get a nice level 2 or 3 vestige. It gets interesting at level 8 w/ two or more at the same time. In between is just brutal.

Binders really need to be level 8+ to shine, IMO. It's not even about the power of synergizing two vestiges together. It's the safety net of being able to take a chance on a situational vestige you think might be useful for the dungeon ahead while still having your rock solid "every day" vestige to fall back on at least.
Until that point, all you can really do is bind that every day vestige or gamble on a weird one and possibly be worthless the whole day. And even the every day vestige is probably the same one you've been using since level 2 or 3, while as other classes tend to get a noticeable power jump around level 5-6.

You should pick one to build around, though. Tenebrous is good. I like Paimon, but it sounds like the party needs more ranged help than melee. If you can rebuild, a caster/binder/anima mage is pretty good.

[The Viscount]

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a Try this on for size, see if it doesn't help.

I'm going to recommend against the Psionic vestiges. The only power that's really significant is The Triad's proficiency with all weapons. Arete is rather dull, and Abysm is abysmal.

[Zaq]

I'm going to recommend against the Psionic vestiges. The only power that's really significant is The Triad's proficiency with all weapons. Arete is rather dull, and Abysm is abysmal.

Having the manifesting stamina of a level 4 Psion with 14 INT doesn't excite you at ECL 15+? Whyever not?

[The Viscount]

Having the manifesting stamina of a level 4 Psion with 14 INT doesn't excite you at ECL 15+? Whyever not?

And you manifest 6 whole powers! It's just too much!

The Trio are probably still better than sinking levels into Master of Masks for its gladiator mask.

[SleepyShadow]

The party wizard wants to delete my binder. I used Focalor, the wizard was standing next to me, and failed two saves because of it. Nobody else seems to mind though :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

The party wizard wants to delete my binder. I used Focalor, the wizard was standing next to me, and failed two saves because of it. Nobody else seems to mind though :smalltongue:

Is there a reason he needs to be standing in your armpit?

[SleepyShadow]

Is there a reason he needs to be standing in your armpit?

The party got surrounded, so there wasn't a very good direction to disengage for either of us. Or maybe the wizard just likes my deodorant lol